why you should believe

I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Poetboy, do you know that, every moslem in this world were believe in Jesus ?But what moslem don't believe on Jesus is, that he wasn't God at all .And Moslem also believe in God, a God that is none seing by every human kind and His creatured by directly, a God that has made the universe and whatever inside it, a God that none god beside He The Most High, a God that not Human like the Old Testament being told. So it is moslem believe in that God. None of others god.As far as I read and learn on the Bible wheter in Old testament nor New Testament, i've never found one word that Jesus has claimed him self as God in his life time. Which is very contra if you read the Old Testament, that God often proclaim Him self as God. Such as I Am God, I God of Abraham, etc. Which is become His characteristic as a God.I do believed that God love his creatured, not just mankind, but whole creatured that He made. And He did not need to put Him self to became human if want to teach us, as a proof, he sent a lot of His Messenger(prophets) to teach mankind to know God and not to do an idoltary. All of His Messenger were teaching a good thing, a right thing, and event bad thing nor evil thing. But for the evil one is so the mankind can stay away from it, meanwhile the right and the good is to mankind done it.So, it doesn't need for God put himself to earth.He also can forgive sin of human kind without any one kill. So for me it is not reasonable for God put Him self as a human kind to forgive sin.For me God was wonderfull because He can forgive me and anyone by begging to Him and ask for forgiveness and ofcourse not doing an idoltry beside Him The Most High .Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best

I understand why you would feel that way Ricky but that would mean there was no price to pay for sin(breaking Gods law)as a parent I learned long ago that forgiving bad without a price to pay teaches nothing. If the thief gets forgiven time and time again whats to stop him from stealing more and more?God in his wisdom knew this so he needed to divise a plan to make sin have a price to pay.

I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.(kriss)
I understand why you would feel that way Ricky but that would mean there was no price to pay for sin(breaking Gods law)as a parent I learned long ago that forgiving bad without a price to pay teaches nothing. If the thief gets forgiven time and time again whats to stop him from stealing more and more?God in his wisdom knew this so he needed to divise a plan to make sin have a price to pay.
, ofcourse it's not like the way you are thinking, Kriss. In Islam there are God and His Prophet Law for every term and condition of every human doing. If the thief ask for God forgiveness ofcourse God can forgive his sin very easily, without to put Him self and sacrifise Him self to forgive human sin. In Islam if someone doing thief, then thus man must cut off his finger/hand for doing so, and this law should be done by authority of law to executed the punishment, that is God Law.So sin human kind can be forgive for their sin if the human kind is asking for His forgiveness, if the man who done sin not asking for His forgiveness is it God would forgive him ? Ofcourse that was not make sense, if God still forgive him meanwhile the mankind was not asking for forgiveness .Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best

I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.(poetboy)
I understand you believe jesus was a prophet and not God, and God can forgive you for your sins if u ask..but the reason for god to put himself as a human (thus jesus being his son) is that to teach the human race, but since we are all naturally sinful, we forsaked him (which was prophesied), and thus he "payed for us" by dying for us...you must understand that...out of love without his death, there would be no hope whatsoever living here..
Firstable I do hope everyone in here will allowed me to urgue in this thread, and if what i'm saying or my word was make you all angry I do appologize and I'm not mean it, then you tell me so I can stop to argueing you, I know it is not polite if this thread or forum was became one place to debating, especially the regarding Admin Denver have note a notice in this sub Forum.So once again I need you all christian permission for me to argueing you, if not, I'll try to find other way so we are not in argueing . I just don't want to break the rule that the admin has been made .Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best

I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.(poetboy)
but the reason for god to put himself as a human (thus jesus being his son) is that to teach the human race, but since we are all naturally sinful, we forsaked him (which was prophesied), and thus he "payed for us" by dying for us...you must understand that...out of love
As I said before, event without Him self to being human He still can send his messenger to teach What God wanted of human kind. He already sent a lot of His Messenger, Prophets to do those things if the point of view was to teach.Actually we are naturally was not sin at all, but our evil willingness that what make us sinfull. That because God created the first human being for the first time in good, correct ?Lets take a look what Jesus (pbuh) said according to Gospels Matthew below.18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. If you see, what Jesus has said, the child was the one who will enter the heavent. That meant the child was unsinfull .And as I said before to you too, event without someone dying God has an ability and can forgive human sin without anyone dying. And I do understand what you trying to say, but are you understand what I'm trying to tell you ?Is it make sense what I'm telling you above, that God was Able, has Power and Can forgive human sin without anyone dying or anyone to be sacrifise ?(poetboy)
without his death, there would be no hope whatsoever living here..
So do you mean is, the Moses and others prophet was hopeless ?Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best

I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

yes, he did send a lot of messengers before jesus' time to teach, but the ultimate goal was not to teach, the ultimate goal was for man's iniquity to be abolished by them giving their life to christ- even when moses or daniel,or king david or whichever prophet came before jesus time, the humans always ended up sinning against God the same, and rejecting his teachings...

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And after Jesus(pbuh) came, is it the result was different ? Jews still rejecting Jesus, event you guys between Bible followers rejecting one to the others. I think what you has said need to be more carefull in saying that . I do appologize to saying this, but i think your argument above was blunder.

First, jesus said that anyone who humbles himself to that of a child will be worthy of the kingdom of heaven, that does not mean the child is unsinful,children make A LOT of mistakes, but what jesus means is that they are more obedient, than a rebellious adult who is disobedient, so any man who will accept christ's teachings, as a child accepts his parents teachings, they are more apt to inherit his kingdom- he uses the child to symbolize 'innocence'...along those lines...

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By the time you born at the first time, are you doing mistakes ? Did you has a sin ? Why Jesus(pbuh) take a child as symbolize ? Because in the real, the children also not sin. Thats why he took simbolize that can described what he want to try to tell. If you think the child was more obeydient, it is not true as well, because a lot of child were more disobey to their parent, and thats why often the parent getting angry because of their children done.It's not make sense I think .Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.The key of that verse according to my view is that verse, if the person was already come to adult age, then he/she must accept believe to Jesus and has purely minded like a child. Not being dirty by pasion of soul. That is child.[/quote]Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best

Allow me to take this opportunity to answer you to the best of my knowledge and may God help me to do so. All glory and honour is to my Lord Jesus Christ, the saviour.(Ricky W;13678)
every moslem in this world were believe in Jesus ?But what moslem don't believe on Jesus is, that he wasn't God at all .
A muslim dose not just believe in Quran, he also need to believe in 'Torait' (Old Testement) 'Anjeel' (the gospel) 'Zaboor' (the psalms) and Suhuf-i-Ibrahim (The scrolls of Abraham).If you look at all the 4 books excluding Quran, they are very much derived from the Bible. Since they are not ditto, that is why we don't agree to it when you say that Jesus is the same in christianity as in islam. As per muslim faith, christians are also refered to 'ahle-kitab' (share the book). As per christian belief we do not share the same book, in fact not on a single occassion / sentence / word in the bible states that we ought to believe any prophet / saint etc after Jesus. In fact, if we follow bible strictly, it clearly states that anyone claiming to be a prophet after Jesus, is a false prophet.(Ricky W;13678)
As far as I read and learn on the Bible wheter in Old testament nor New Testament, i've never found one word that Jesus has claimed him self as God in his life time. Which is very contra if you read the Old Testament, that God often proclaim Him self as God. Such as I Am God, I God of Abraham, etc. Which is become His characteristic as a God.I do believed that God love his creatured, not just mankind, but whole creatured that He made. And He did not need to put Him self to became human if want to teach us, as a proof, he sent a lot of His Messenger(prophets) to teach mankind to know God and not to do an idoltary. All of His Messenger were teaching a good thing, a right thing, and event bad thing nor evil thing. But for the evil one is so the mankind can stay away from it, meanwhile the right and the good is to mankind done it.So, it doesn't need for God put himself to earth.
Have you ever noticed a flock of birds resting on the ground? What happens if you try to approach them with good intentions? Do they fly away being scared? For the same reason, God needed to come down on earth among his most favourite creatures, in their form, so that they are not scared and scattered. God lived on earth in human form, to show us that it is possible to be human and yet stay away from sin. That was needed as we humans doubt too much and believe less. Jesus is a living proof of his love.Have you ever heard of a common saying used as, ''like father, like son''. Scientifically speaking, the father and the son share the same genes. Dosen't that make sense? You must have read on serveral places in New Testament that Jesus is refered to 'Son Of God' or 'The Father, The Son & The Holy Gost' and clearly the Od Testament predicts his coming.(Ricky W;13678)
He also can forgive sin of human kind without any one kill. So for me it is not reasonable for God put Him self as a human kind to forgive sin.For me God was wonderfull because He can forgive me and anyone by begging to Him and ask for forgiveness and ofcourse not doing an idoltry beside Him The Most High
Do you believe God is just? As a muslim you must believe that. Let me try to explain with an example... lets say tomorrow you kill my brother and later ask for forgiveness from God and expect to be forgiven as HE promised. Lets say since God is so merciful he forgives you but would it be fair on me? Who will pay the price of my brother's blood? Where is justice? God can not take sides. As per christian faith the only salvation / hope is through Jesus !Be blessed !

(Ricky W;13752)
As I said before, event without Him self to being human He still can send his messenger to teach What God wanted of human kind. He already sent a lot of His Messenger, Prophets to do those things if the point of view was to teach.
Surely, God sent many prophets as his messangers to help mankind but since we are so stubborn, God needed to come himself and surely it helped as you can see Christianity is the biggest religion in the world till to-date. So many saved, Amen !When I was a little girl I use to be very naughty and the only person that I would listen to was my dad. I loved the way he explained me things and not abandon me like rest of the family who use to say, here come trouble.(Ricky W;13752)
Lets take a look what Jesus (pbuh) said according to Gospels Matthew below.18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. If you see, what Jesus has said, the child was the one who will enter the heavent. That meant the child was unsinfull .
It's funny to see that you quote something from the bible and then proclaim it half way. Read it once again. True, Jesus refered to a child which is symbolic and signifies innocense but you skip the later part of the same verse which is, recieve the child IN MY NAME has RECIEVED ME. God's humanly form is a proof to all mankind that it is possible to remain innocent, so don't be naive. Another aspect to it is that any unborn child or we by birth are sinners because we are born of sin and the ladder gose up to Adam and Eve, so even if you are a sinless person still we need to be purified to enter the kingdom of heaven.(Ricky W;13752)
And as I said before to you too, event without someone dying God has an ability and can forgive human sin without anyone dying. And I do understand what you trying to say, but are you understand what I'm trying to tell you ?Is it make sense what I'm telling you above, that God was Able, has Power and Can forgive human sin without anyone dying or anyone to be sacrifise ?
Yes, God has ability to forgive but the kingdom of heaven can only be entered if you are pure as a child. Purity is different from Forgiveness. Jesus is what purifies us. As per muslim beliefs you have 'Eid' a tradition followed since Abraham to sacrify a lamb. Why do you celebrate eid? What's the need of sacrifcing a poor lamb who has done nothing against you or caused you harm? What is the significance of that lamb in your religion as you can safely pray 5 times a day and seek forgiveness then why the lamb has to pay the price every year?In christianity that lamb is Jesus. Once and for all, praise God who is so complete.(Ricky W;13752)
So do you mean is, the Moses and others prophet was hopeless ?
We don't mean anything like that. Moses was a prophet and all prophets before Jesus were a mean to spread God's word. We have respect for anyone who spreads the word of God but words are soon forgotten and therefore we needed a living example. Halleluiah !

......

I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.("amy")
Allow me to take this opportunity to answer you to the best of my knowledge and may God help me to do so. All glory and honour is to my Lord Jesus Christ, the saviour.
Be my guest my friend, and my God(Allah) glory will always upon among the believers .("amy")
A muslim dose not just believe in Quran, he also need to believe in 'Torait' (Old Testement) 'Anjeel' (the gospel) 'Zaboor' (the psalms) and Suhuf-i-Ibrahim (The scrolls of Abraham).
You are considered to be right on this one, even i don't know the relation with my statement about how muslim believe in Jesus (pbuh).("amy")
If you look at all the 4 books excluding Quran, they are very much derived from the Bible. Since they are not ditto, that is why we don't agree to it when you say that Jesus is the same in christianity as in islam. As per muslim faith, christians are also refered to 'ahle-kitab' (share the book). As per christian belief we do not share the same book, in fact not on a single occassion / sentence / word in the bible states that we ought to believe any prophet / saint etc after Jesus. In fact, if we follow bible strictly, it clearly states that anyone claiming to be a prophet after Jesus, is a false prophet.
Did I said Jesus is the same in Christian and Islam ? You may give my statement that supporting your argument. What i said in my handwritings is to give a knowledge on how moslem believe to one of the prophet call 'Isa Ieshua Yahusua.Ahli kitab in Islam used to call for people who has received Law and Order from God from previous prophets, and it's refers to the one who following Torah, Zaboor, and Injil(Gospel). And I don't understand with what you call share the same book. Sorry amy, your understanding on muslim view need to be clarify.You may show me where are the verse in the bible that supporting your argument, that you ought not to believe any prophet/saint etc after Jesus. And as you know Jesus was not a prophet but he is God according to yours faith. And about others prophet that were exists after Jesus was false prophets, are you sure with your statement ? If that the case, show me the verse that state your opinion.("amy")
Do you believe God is just? As a muslim you must believe that. Let me try to explain with an example... lets say tomorrow you kill my brother and later ask for forgiveness from God and expect to be forgiven as HE promised. Lets say since God is so merciful he forgives you but would it be fair on me? Who will pay the price of my brother's blood? Where is justice? God can not take sides.As per christian faith the only salvation / hope is through Jesus !
, why don't you explain to your own faith with this condition ? I want to hear it.Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best

What's your point poetboy ? If it's about believing or not? It's totally your choice. Choose heaven or hell. Nobody here is forcing you.

Ricky,There is power in the blood of Jesus that sets people free. I've experienced it. Jesus has set me free indeed. And The Holy Spirit is living in me and blessed me beyond my expectations. It's awesome. I don't have to have Ramadan time to fast, I don't have to wash my hands ,feet before prayer in Mosque/ In church. I don't have to do pilgrimage to Mecca. You have to be born again to understand it... or you can go blaah, blaah, blaah...

(Ricky W;13678)
I seek refuge in God, from Satan the rejectedIn the name of Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Poetboy, do you know that, every moslem in this world were believe in Jesus ?But what moslem don't believe on Jesus is, that he wasn't God at all .And Moslem also believe in God, a God that is none seing by every human kind and His creatured by directly, a God that has made the universe and whatever inside it, a God that none god beside He The Most High, a God that not Human like the Old Testament being told. So it is moslem believe in that God. None of others god.As far as I read and learn on the Bible wheter in Old testament nor New Testament, i've never found one word that Jesus has claimed him self as God in his life time. Which is very contra if you read the Old Testament, that God often proclaim Him self as God. Such as I Am God, I God of Abraham, etc. Which is become His characteristic as a God.I do believed that God love his creatured, not just mankind, but whole creatured that He made. And He did not need to put Him self to became human if want to teach us, as a proof, he sent a lot of His Messenger(prophets) to teach mankind to know God and not to do an idoltary. All of His Messenger were teaching a good thing, a right thing, and event bad thing nor evil thing. But for the evil one is so the mankind can stay away from it, meanwhile the right and the good is to mankind done it.So, it doesn't need for God put himself to earth.He also can forgive sin of human kind without any one kill. So for me it is not reasonable for God put Him self as a human kind to forgive sin.For me God was wonderfull because He can forgive me and anyone by begging to Him and ask for forgiveness and ofcourse not doing an idoltry beside Him The Most High .Best regards,Ricky WisnadriGod(Allah) Knows Best
Your post makes a lot of sense Ricky,(even though I'm not muslim and have no intentions on converting to it) this is the problem I'm having(things said according to your post) when trying to understand Christianity. And with ALL my heart I'm trying to understand the christian bible and believe, I really WANT to believe! I'm frustrated that I can't! I'm having a difficult time believing that in order for our sins to be forgiven, death needed to occur, hence Jesus's brutal death.(a very sadisitic act may I add, it saddens me to even go to church, just seeing Jesus nailed to the cross makes me ill, or even thinking about that being the Lord's way for us to be forgiven i.e. death needed to occur). But I'm praying for the Lord to lead me in the right direction with my beliefs. I just wanted to comment that I understand the argurments you pose, and how confusing it is, or how confused you may be.

God does not force you to believe, once again it's your choice. But His Word, The Bible is the truth, you either believe it or not. Don't limit God with your philosophy. God is able to do what he wants, and He did it, does it and will fulfill all the prophecies that He has promised.

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Thunder1)
God does not force you to believe, once again it's your choice. But His Word, The Bible is the truth, you either believe it or not. Don't limit God with your philosophy. God is able to do what he wants, and He did it, does it and will fulfill all the prophecies that He has promised.
But unfortunately, your thought has limited God, why ? Because Human sin can only be forgive if Jesus die first. But the fact is God was able to forgive everyone without someone to get death.Wallaahu a'lam.

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(FollowChrist)
Your post makes a lot of sense Ricky,(even though I'm not muslim and have no intentions on converting to it) this is the problem I'm having(things said according to your post) when trying to understand Christianity. And with ALL my heart I'm trying to understand the christian bible and believe, I really WANT to believe! I'm frustrated that I can't! I'm having a difficult time believing that in order for our sins to be forgiven, death needed to occur, hence Jesus's brutal death.(a very sadisitic act may I add, it saddens me to even go to church, just seeing Jesus nailed to the cross makes me ill, or even thinking about that being the Lord's way for us to be forgiven i.e. death needed to occur). But I'm praying for the Lord to lead me in the right direction with my beliefs. I just wanted to comment that I understand the argurments you pose, and how confusing it is, or how confused you may be.
If you are allow me to give an advise, use your clear mind and clean heart to seek the truth, because God has made it for human to looking the truth about Him, remember not just using your clear mind that you will be needed, but also clean heart.Wallaahu a'lam.