The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

Truth7t7 · Sep 17, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
The binding began through the earthly ministry of Christ where He confronted and overcome Satan at every turn. It culminated in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. After this, the Gospel opened up to the nations and the veil of deception was finally lifted.

I believe Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Positionally, we have our part in His life, death, resurrection, ascension and glorious reign through regeneration - being "in Christ." This means the lake of fire (the second death) has no claim over us. Our sin was buried with Christ and when He arose we arose. He was our representative. He was our substitute. The company that have their “part” in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6 are all those that are spiritually raised “in Christ” from the grave of their sin.

Through physical resurrection we become part of that great physical harvest. Both the first and second resurrections are totally connected. Because Christ conquered the grave physically so we will conquer the grave if we have our "part" or portion "in Christ" through salvation. The key is that we initially experience our part in that glorious first resurrection "by faith" and therefore experience both resurrections.

The First Resurrection, On The Last Day Explained?

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Randy Kluth · Sep 17, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
Ad hominem is a big joke to you.

No, personal attacks are what I've repeatedly asked you to stop doing, to stop adding to every post some negative commentary, some color commentary filled with "you need to do the research, you have nothing, you know it, you're desperate," etc. None of that is necessary brother, and yet you've chosen to do that as long as I've seen you on these forums.

Yes, I do try to lighten things up on occasion because we get too serious, and forget that we are brothers. I've tried to remind you of that, to no avail. You're seriously concerned about my joking with you about being an idolater. But that wasn't a joke when I said you've made Amil an idol to you.

By that I mean that you put it ahead of God--not that you actually worship other gods, or are a pagan, etc. That's ludicrous. I know you're not a pagan. I know you don't worship idols.

I'm just warning you to not get too bent out of shape over a peripheral doctrine in the field of eschatology. There are many speculative issues here that we need to offer a certain amount of license for, in order to let discussions go forward, letting others speak their mind, and letting the Holy Spirit do the work of conviction. Insulting others is not conviction.

So we agree. You don't like course joking, and I don't like the accompanying commentary, replete with, "you know this, you're out of your depth," etc. Funny how you are only concerned with what bothers you and not with what bothers others.

WPM · Sep 17, 2022

Op Note

The earliest Chiliasts believed that man is not fully delivered from the consequences of sin, and punishment for the performance of sin in this life, until 1,000 years after the second coming at the new heaven and new earth. They believed in a peculiar 3-stage preparation framework for the eternal state – life, the intermediate state and a future 1000 years after Jesus return. Most modern Premils would reject this outline, considering life as the sole testing ground of the soul.

These early Millennialists assumed that the disembodied souls of all men (saved and lost) would be kept in a common place of waiting during the intermediate state, albeit separated until that great and glorious day according to their spiritual status. That place was Hades. Tertullian succinctly describes the standard early Chiliast views on the afterlife in A Treatise on the Soul, (Chapter 55): “every soul is detained in safe keeping in Hades until the day of the Lord.”

Even though the earliest Chiliasts considered the fate of the body intertwined with the soul, they believed that the soul had to go through its own individual reparation for the sins it committed whilst living during the afterlife. They believed that the body was not essential for the dead to experience the sorrows and joys of the soul. In Hades, and during the intermediate state, both the righteous and the wicked were expected to go through further change according to their behavior in life, until they received their deserved reward when Jesus comes. To facilitate this teaching, these same early writers formulated an elaborate view of continued purging of the soul of the elect until it was reunited with its resurrected body.

They also held that when the soul was finally reunited with its respective body at the resurrection/judgment it would then have to go through further training and improvement during a future millennium which would prepare the redeemed for the eternal state.

This conviction was held by some of the very early leading Chiliasts like Irenaeus and Tertullian. They believed that there was an unfolding “pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just” following death. This was described in varying ways as “the methods by which they [the righteous] are disciplined beforehand for incorruption,” “the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved” or “God’s dispensations.” They also called this theory “the law of the dead.” These particular dispensations were believed to occur in stages. Believers were said to “advance through steps of this nature.”

The first test for man was seen as his natural life on earth. After death, these early Chiliasts believed that the elect would enter subterranean Hades to undergo further spiritual refinement in a disembodied state to prepare them for a future millennial kingdom on earth. This, they believed, was a proportionate and needed recompense for previous sins in life and a disciplining of the soul in preparation for the age to come. Following this (at the second coming), they understood believers would receive their resurrected bodies and join Christ on a renovated earth to enjoy a millennial Sabbath. But this too, they assumed, involved a further probationary period lasting 1,000 years, where the elect would become “accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature.” The result of these three examination periods would then determine the eternal home of God’s people. As a result of man’s examination in life, in Hades in the intermediate state, and on a future millennial earth, these early influential Chiliasts believed that the elect would be divided up into 3 groups according to their worthiness after the millennium and then ushered accordingly into 3 separate eternal abodes – (1) heaven, (2) paradise or (3) the new Jerusalem.

But where did the Chiliast proponents of this doctrine get their idea of three stages of discipline, reparation and gradation? After all, orthodox Christians typically believe that man is tested in life, and the result of that life will determine both his eternal home and his eternal reward after a suitable judgment. Hebrews 9:27 supports this saying: “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

Evangelicals generally believe there are two eternal abodes. Eternity is either enjoyed by the elect on a renewed earth (either millennial or a perfected new earth) or by the wicked in the lake of fire. Notwithstanding, most commentators recognize a pattern of 3 distinct reward meted out for the righteous on judgment day (Mark 4:20, Luke 19:12-21, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, 15:41-42, Hebrews 8:5, 9:24 and 1 John 2:12-13. Similar distinctions exist in regard to the punishment of the wicked (Matthew 10:15, 11:22-24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12). But this life is universally accepted by Bible-believing Christians to be the exclusive testing time and sole decision time for the redeemed. The Roman Catholic Church holds different beliefs.

Randy Kluth · Sep 17, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
Op Note

The earliest Chiliasts believed that man is not fully delivered from the consequences of sin, and punishment for the performance of sin in this life, until 1,000 years after the second coming at the new heaven and new earth. They believed in a peculiar 3-stage preparation framework for the eternal state – life, the intermediate state and a future 1000 years after Jesus return. Most modern Premils would reject this outline, considering life as the sole testing ground of the soul.

These early Millennialists assumed that the disembodied souls of all men (saved and lost) would be kept in a common place of waiting during the intermediate state, albeit separated until that great and glorious day according to their spiritual status. That place was Hades. Tertullian succinctly describes the standard early Chiliast views on the afterlife in A Treatise on the Soul, (Chapter 55): “every soul is detained in safe keeping in Hades until the day of the Lord.”

Even though the earliest Chiliasts considered the fate of the body intertwined with the soul, they believed that the soul had to go through its own individual reparation for the sins it committed whilst living during the afterlife. They believed that the body was not essential for the dead to experience the sorrows and joys of the soul. In Hades, and during the intermediate state, both the righteous and the wicked were expected to go through further change according to their behavior in life, until they received their deserved reward when Jesus comes. To facilitate this teaching, these same early writers formulated an elaborate view of continued purging of the soul of the elect until it was reunited with its resurrected body.

They also held that when the soul was finally reunited with its respective body at the resurrection/judgment it would then have to go through further training and improvement during a future millennium which would prepare the redeemed for the eternal state.

This conviction was held by some of the very early leading Chiliasts like Irenaeus and Tertullian. They believed that there was an unfolding “pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just” following death. This was described in varying ways as “the methods by which they [the righteous] are disciplined beforehand for incorruption,” “the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved” or “God’s dispensations.” They also called this theory “the law of the dead.” These particular dispensations were believed to occur in stages. Believers were said to “advance through steps of this nature.”

The first test for man was seen as his natural life on earth. After death, these early Chiliasts believed that the elect would enter subterranean Hades to undergo further spiritual refinement in a disembodied state to prepare them for a future millennial kingdom on earth. This, they believed, was a proportionate and needed recompense for previous sins in life and a disciplining of the soul in preparation for the age to come. Following this (at the second coming), they understood believers would receive their resurrected bodies and join Christ on a renovated earth to enjoy a millennial Sabbath. But this too, they assumed, involved a further probationary period lasting 1,000 years, where the elect would become “accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature.” The result of these three examination periods would then determine the eternal home of God’s people. As a result of man’s examination in life, in Hades in the intermediate state, and on a future millennial earth, these early influential Chiliasts believed that the elect would be divided up into 3 groups according to their worthiness after the millennium and then ushered accordingly into 3 separate eternal abodes – (1) heaven, (2) paradise or (3) the new Jerusalem.

But where did the Chiliast proponents of this doctrine get their idea of three stages of discipline, reparation and gradation? After all, orthodox Christians typically believe that man is tested in life, and the result of that life will determine both his eternal home and his eternal reward after a suitable judgment. Hebrews 9:27 supports this saying: “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

Evangelicals generally believe there are two eternal abodes. Eternity is either enjoyed by the elect on a renewed earth (either millennial or a perfected new earth) or by the wicked in the lake of fire. Notwithstanding, most commentators recognize a pattern of 3 distinct reward meted out for the righteous on judgment day (Mark 4:20, Luke 19:12-21, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, 15:41-42, Hebrews 8:5, 9:24 and 1 John 2:12-13. Similar distinctions exist in regard to the punishment of the wicked (Matthew 10:15, 11:22-24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12). But this life is universally accepted by Bible-believing Christians to be the exclusive testing time and sole decision time for the redeemed. The Roman Catholic Church holds different beliefs.

Really? How interesting! However, having read some of their material, I'm really not that surprised. They lived early in Church history, and did not really have the feedback needed to refine their positions. There was much more interest in the Trinity and Christology. I think eschatology was a field that could easily have been influenced by Gnosticism, Judaism, etc.

I personally accept the idea of our being judged for how we live while we are alive, and not after death. But how do I know? I don't even know what the basis was for Tertullian and Irenaeus believing these things? Anyway, thanks for the information. It's something I can enjoy looking into just for the sake of curiosity. My biggest problem, though, is that I don't read electronic writing very well, when it comes to book-sized readings. I do much better with actual books, and I only have portions of the Church Fathers in my library.

WPM · Sep 17, 2022

Op Note

Papias, Irenaeus and Tertullian considered the immediate state as a time of refinement, purging and training for deceased believers in Hades, preparing them to effectively function in a future millennial kingdom. This is likely where the roots of purgatory arose within the Roman Catholic Church. Rather than Hades being a place and period of just sacred restfulness and reassuring contemplation for the dead in Christ, it is portrayed as an ongoing period of evolving improvement, equipping the dead in Christ for a future millennial kingdom ahead.

Irenaeus took most of his beliefs from Papias. After all, there is no other early writers to glean from and no one else to support his views. It was crucial for him to legitimize his character, credentials and teaching. He succinctly outlines the general thrust of his belief pertaining to the condition of the dead elect during the intra-Advent period:

Since … some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption … they … treat the promise of God contemptuously, and pass beyond God altogether in the sentiments they form, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 31:1).

For Irenaeus, the subterranean abode is a place of purification or cleansing of the soul in order to equip it to operate in the presence of the Lord in a future millennial kingdom. This obviously contradicts the views of those who depict Abraham’s bosom as only a place of rest and comfort. Tertullian adds detail to the doctrine, and explains the reasoning behind the belief:

[W]hatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abraham’s bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality (A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter VII).

Essentially, what Tertullian is saying here is, the fact that there is a soul that is alive in Hades is seen as proof that there is a body related to it. Both of these, in his estimation, will unite when Jesus comes. But he depicts Hades as a place of both “punishment or refreshment.” Like Hippolytus and Lactantius, he portrays Hades as a prison for all the dead. Tertullian adds:

All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades … moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich … Why, then, cannot you suppose that the soul undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory? … Full well, then, does the soul even in Hades know how to joy and to sorrow even without the body; since when in the flesh it feels pain when it likes, though the body is unhurt; and when it likes it feels joy though the body is in pain. Now if such sensations occur at its will during life, how much rather may they not happen after death by the judicial appointment of God!

Tertullian repeatedly talks about “the soul” experiencing the most diverse feelings in the afterlife in Hades. He talks about it enduring punishments and enjoying consolations; he talks about it facing both sorrow and joy. This all seems to correlate with the opinion that Irenaeus proposed that the righteous undergoes “the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption.” He continues:

It is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. Nay more, even in matters done through the flesh the soul is the first to conceive them, the first to arrange them, the first to authorize them, the first to precipitate them into acts. And even if it is sometimes unwilling to act, it is still the first to treat the object which it means to effect by help of the body … It is therefore quite in keeping with this order of things, that that part of our nature should be the first to have the recompense and reward to which they are due on account of its priority.

Reparation is written all over the intermediate state experience of the just in these early Chiliast writings. The dead in Christ are depicted as being rewarded now in the lower regions according to their respective obedience or disobedience in life. The difficulty with all these rationalizations is that there is no Scripture biblical basis for these assumptions. It is pure speculation! Tertullian further expands his feelings on this matter in his work On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter XVII, teaching,

That souls are even now susceptible of torment and of blessing in Hades, though they are disembodied, and notwithstanding their banishment from the flesh, is proved by the case of Lazarus … Therefore as it has acted in each several instance, so proportionably does it suffer in Hades, being the first to taste of judgment as it was the first to induce to the commission of sin; but still it is waiting for the flesh in order that it may through the flesh also compensate for its deeds, inasmuch as it laid upon the flesh the execution of its own thoughts. This, in short, will be the process of that judgment which is postponed to the last great day, in order that by the exhibition of the flesh the entire course of the divine vengeance may be accomplished. Besides, (it is obvious to remark) there would be no delaying to the end of that doom which souls are already tasting in Hades, if it was destined for souls alone.

WPM · Sep 17, 2022

Op Note

Tertullian repeats his belief that there are different degrees of torment and blessing in Hades pertaining to both the just and the unjust. The writer then articulates his rational behind his thinking:

[T]he soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. Whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her, has committed adultery with her already in his heart. Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. Nay more, even in matters done through the flesh the soul is the first to conceive them, the first to arrange them, the first to authorize them, the first to precipitate them into acts (A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter LVIII).

All would surely agree: death is the complete separation of the soul from the body. But Tertullian is basically telling us here that the body is not essential for the dead to experience the sorrows and joys of the soul. Chris Gousmett writes in his thorough work Shall The Body Strive And Not Be Crowned? (p. 67): “Tertullian says that the soul will suffer alone the penalties of the sins it committed alone, because it is able to suffer apart from the body, but it will suffer with the body the sins committed with the body. In the intermediate state prior to the resurrection, the souls waiting in Hades for the resurrection receive either rewards or punishments appropriate for the soul alone, for instance punishment for lustful thoughts, and for the responsibility for conceiving of sinful deeds, together with fear of the judgement to come, or else rewards for pious and kindly thoughts which were not shared with the flesh. At the resurrection everyone will receive the deserts of their deeds committed by body and soul together, for instance, lustful acts, and therefore the body will not be deprived of its deserts. Thus Tertullian concludes that the souls waiting in Hades for the resurrection enjoy either some reward for their faithfulness, or suffering and fear of the judgement to come because of their wickedness, and thereby the significance of the resurrection to judgement is not diminished.”

Robert E. Roberts contends: “The legal cast of Tertullian’s thought is here obvious. Remission of sin by the atonement of Christ is unthought of. Any atonement for sin which is made is personal, and is exactly equivalent to the wrong done. Likewise every reward is proportioned to the desert of the individual soul” (The Theology of Tertullian, Chapter XI).

Tertullian enlarges:

It is … quite in keeping with this order of things, that that part of our nature should be the first to have the recompense and reward to which they are due on account of its priority. In short, inasmuch as we understand the prison pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret the uttermost farthing to mean the very smallest offense which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides (A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter LVIII).

According to Tertullian, there is no hope of salvation in “the lower world.” But all must pay the exact amount in “compensatory discipline” equivalent to their debt to God.

Tertullian uses similar language in A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter XXXV:

Evil deeds (one may be sure) appertain to life. Moreover, as often as the soul has fallen short as a defaulter in sin, it has to be recalled to existence, until it pays the utmost farthing, thrust out from time to time into the prison of the body … lest this Judge [God the Judge] deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection.

Tertullian again deems Hades a prison. He also describes the reparation the souls of the redeemed endure during the intermediate state as “compensatory discipline.” The cross does not seem to be enough for this early writer. Tertullian then addresses the second coming, in a parallel manuscript:

For who is there that will not desire, while he is in the flesh, to put on immortality, and to continue his life by a happy escape from death, through the transformation which must be experienced instead of it, without encountering too that Hades which will exact the very last farthing? (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter XLII).

After describing glorification when Jesus comes, Tertullian then goes on to emphasize that it would be preferable to be alive when Jesus comes and escape Hades during the intermediate state. In Chiliast thinking, Hades is not a location and experience to be desired during the intra-Advent period. It is better to be avoided. Those who escape its throes and are alive when Jesus comes are blessed. It is an abode that, he once again reminds us, will execute justice on its inhabitants only releasing them when justice has been finally and fully compensated. The writer reiterates his contention that Hades “will exact the very last farthing” out of its occupants, or, basically, it will wholly discipline it inhabitants according to their performance on their earthly sojourn on this earth.

Lyford Paterson Edwards explains: “It may perhaps seem incongruous to say that purgatory took over the values of the millennium and from the point of view of formal theology it is so. But the only point we are trying to make here, namely, the fundamental fact of the expression of masochistic impulses, is as evidently shown in the purgatory as in the millennium concept. The desire for a heightened sense of self-realization, a richer content of experience, is the cause of the appearance of both concepts and they are closely allied psychologically. This fact comes out in the large part played by the Chiliasts in the evolution of the purgatory concept. What we find here is a concurrent declension of Chiliasm and development of purgatory. For about two centuries the two concepts existed side by side; then the superior social value of purgatory asserting itself, that doctrine gradually took over the masochistic values of Chiliasm; the supersession of the later being rendered thereby more rapid and easy” (The Transformation Of Early Christianity From An Eschatological To A Socialized Movement).

Randy Kluth · Sep 17, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
Op Note

Papias, Irenaeus and Tertullian considered the immediate state as a time of refinement, purging and training for deceased believers in Hades, preparing them to effectively function in a future millennial kingdom. This is likely where the roots of purgatory arose within the Roman Catholic Church. Rather than Hades being a place and period of just sacred restfulness and reassuring contemplation for the dead in Christ, it is portrayed as an ongoing period of evolving improvement, equipping the dead in Christ for a future millennial kingdom ahead.

Irenaeus took most of his beliefs from Papias. After all, there is no other early writers to glean from and no one else to support his views. It was crucial for him to legitimize his character, credentials and teaching. He succinctly outlines the general thrust of his belief pertaining to the condition of the dead elect during the intra-Advent period:

Since … some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption … they … treat the promise of God contemptuously, and pass beyond God altogether in the sentiments they form, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 31:1).

For Irenaeus, the subterranean abode is a place of purification or cleansing of the soul in order to equip it to operate in the presence of the Lord in a future millennial kingdom. This obviously contradicts the views of those who depict Abraham’s bosom as only a place of rest and comfort. Tertullian adds detail to the doctrine, and explains the reasoning behind the belief:

[W]hatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abraham’s bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality (A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter VII).

Essentially, what Tertullian is saying here is, the fact that there is a soul that is alive in Hades is seen as proof that there is a body related to it. Both of these, in his estimation, will unite when Jesus comes. But he depicts Hades as a place of both “punishment or refreshment.” Like Hippolytus and Lactantius, he portrays Hades as a prison for all the dead. Tertullian adds:

All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades … moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich … Why, then, cannot you suppose that the soul undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory? … Full well, then, does the soul even in Hades know how to joy and to sorrow even without the body; since when in the flesh it feels pain when it likes, though the body is unhurt; and when it likes it feels joy though the body is in pain. Now if such sensations occur at its will during life, how much rather may they not happen after death by the judicial appointment of God!

Tertullian repeatedly talks about “the soul” experiencing the most diverse feelings in the afterlife in Hades. He talks about it enduring punishments and enjoying consolations; he talks about it facing both sorrow and joy. This all seems to correlate with the opinion that Irenaeus proposed that the righteous undergoes “the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption.” He continues:

It is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. Nay more, even in matters done through the flesh the soul is the first to conceive them, the first to arrange them, the first to authorize them, the first to precipitate them into acts. And even if it is sometimes unwilling to act, it is still the first to treat the object which it means to effect by help of the body … It is therefore quite in keeping with this order of things, that that part of our nature should be the first to have the recompense and reward to which they are due on account of its priority.

Reparation is written all over the intermediate state experience of the just in these early Chiliast writings. The dead in Christ are depicted as being rewarded now in the lower regions according to their respective obedience or disobedience in life. The difficulty with all these rationalizations is that there is no Scripture biblical basis for these assumptions. It is pure speculation! Tertullian further expands his feelings on this matter in his work On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter XVII, teaching,

That souls are even now susceptible of torment and of blessing in Hades, though they are disembodied, and notwithstanding their banishment from the flesh, is proved by the case of Lazarus … Therefore as it has acted in each several instance, so proportionably does it suffer in Hades, being the first to taste of judgment as it was the first to induce to the commission of sin; but still it is waiting for the flesh in order that it may through the flesh also compensate for its deeds, inasmuch as it laid upon the flesh the execution of its own thoughts. This, in short, will be the process of that judgment which is postponed to the last great day, in order that by the exhibition of the flesh the entire course of the divine vengeance may be accomplished. Besides, (it is obvious to remark) there would be no delaying to the end of that doom which souls are already tasting in Hades, if it was destined for souls alone.

Thanks for the interesting quotes. I have also thought about things like this, though not this particular thing. I can see where Tertullian gets his biblical basis for his speculations. And yes, they are indeed speculations!

It seems obvious--at least to me--that the righteous die and the wicked die and are left without bodies for a time. I don't believe in "soul sleep," so I think they maintain consciousness, and are conscious of the lives they've led.

This leads us to ask the question, Why? Why does God leave the souls of men without bodies for a long time, until the resurrection? What happens to the soul that was righteous, and yet imperfect, and is without a body, awaiting the resurrection to immortality? What happens to the soul of the wicked who without a body are left to reflect on the bad choices they made, all while they may have to wait hundreds of years before their resurrection?

It does seem speculations can fill up some of this missing information. In a sense it is partly biblical, and partly open to speculation. I personally couldn't go as far, but I do see it as anybody's right to take a stab at it.

Ronald Nolette · Sep 18, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
The early Premil heretics believed the same as you. It may surprise you to know that the views you hold and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity chiefly among heretics. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early Church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (AD 50-100) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: AD 85, Died: AD 160). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early Church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity. They invented a dual-covenant concept of two parallel yet coexisting peoples of God, under two different agreements, serving two different gods, with two different time-tables and two different ultimate outcomes. This was seasoned throughout with Gnostic elements.

So you consider Paul a heretic? JOhn a heretic? good to know! You pulled this garbage once before and it flopped.

Cerinthius was a gnostic and would reject a physical millenium on earth.

You have failed to quote any of their eschatology. Holding heresy in one area does not neccesitate their eschatology is heretical.

I know of no modern dispensational believers of eschatology to hold that "dual covenant" view you write here. I am sure trhere are some, just like most amils reject the concept that God will have anything to do further with Israel as a nation, though it is written in both testaments.

Ronald Nolette · Sep 18, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
The binding began through the earthly ministry of Christ where He confronted and overcome Satan at every turn. It culminated in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. After this, the Gospel opened up to the nations and the veil of deception was finally lifted.

I believe Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Positionally, we have our part in His life, death, resurrection, ascension and glorious reign through regeneration - being "in Christ." This means the lake of fire (the second death) has no claim over us. Our sin was buried with Christ and when He arose we arose. He was our representative. He was our substitute. The company that have their “part” in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6 are all those that are spiritually raised “in Christ” from the grave of their sin.

Through physical resurrection we become part of that great physical harvest. Both the first and second resurrections are totally connected. Because Christ conquered the grave physically so we will conquer the grave if we have our "part" or portion "in Christ" through salvation. The key is that we initially experience our part in that glorious first resurrection "by faith" and therefore experience both resurrections.

Well as I want Siritual Israelite to answer, I will await their answer. I already know your opinion.

Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is no way in this universe Jesus can be the first resurrection of Rev. 20! It directly refers to those who refused the mark and were beheaded. And the Bible makes it clear it is not a "He" but a "they". So unless you believe jesus is multiple people the answer is no.

but then again when you start symbolizing things here and there, you can alter any verse of Scripture.

Ronald Nolette · Sep 18, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
What about when your opinion of one highly debated passage in the most symbolic setting in Scripture contradicts the rest of Scripture? You literally is a passage that is highly symbolic. That is theologically insane.

Amil is built on safer ground. Amil is built upon corroboration. Multiple strong and repeated Scriptures on each tenet of that position proves that doctrine. Let us discuss some of the water-tight support Amil enjoys for its understanding of Rev 20.

Much Scripture proves that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.

This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

YOu have rewritten too much of Scripture and moved the order of verses t3o fit an amil reinterpretation of Scripture that I cannot answer it all.

About the only thing the Bible and you agree on in all this hodge podge of allegorizing and reinterpreting is that Satan is cast into teh Lake before the new heaven and earth. RIGHT BEFORE if one wished to believe the INspired Word of God instead of teh reinterpreted Word.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And Peter and Paul disagree with you that satan is currently abyssed.

WPM · Sep 18, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
So you consider Paul a heretic? JOhn a heretic? good to know! You pulled this garbage once before and it flopped.

Cerinthius was a gnostic and would reject a physical millenium on earth.

You have failed to quote any of their eschatology. Holding heresy in one area does not neccesitate their eschatology is heretical.

I know of no modern dispensational believers of eschatology to hold that "dual covenant" view you write here. I am sure trhere are some, just like most amils reject the concept that God will have anything to do further with Israel as a nation, though it is written in both testaments.

I know you are extremely uncomfortable with it, but the evidence of history shows the founders of modern Premil were all heretics. You have no rebuttal to that.

Cerinthus

Cerinthus of Asia Minor had an unrefined sensual view of a future millennium arriving after the second coming. He anticipated a kingdom where men could continue to indulge in all the lusts of the flesh. He also promoted the restoration of the old covenant arrangement, believing that the earthly Jewish temple would be rebuilt, the old covenant Aaronic priesthood revived and sin offerings restarted. Dionysius describes the millennium Cerinthus anticipated in the future. It is a classic but crude summation of many of the core tenets of modern-day Premillenialism.

Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one. And as he was himself devoted to the pleasures of the body and altogether sensual in his nature, he dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying, and in festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims, under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace (Church History, Book III, Chapter 28).

This summary covers some of the core tenets of what we know today as Premillennialism. But the key element that is present here, but absent in the Chiliast hope, is where Dionysius describes Cerinthus’ expectation of a return to the Jewish “festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims.” Cerinthus saw the reintroduction of the old covenant arrangement. With the return of “festivals and sacrifices,” came (of necessity) the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and the restoration of the old covenant priesthood. This was anathema to orthodox early Christianity. It ran contrary to New Testament teaching and principles.

The early Christians writers of all shades believed that Christ was the last sacrifice for sin. They held that the old covenant was a temporary imperfect unsatisfactory covenant pointing forward to the Lord Jesus Christ and His eternal sacrifice. They taught that the new divine arrangement had superseded the shadow, type and figure.

There is no allowance made by the Patristic writers for a restoration of the Old Testament sacrifice system with its festivals and feast, its meat offerings, sin offerings, trespass offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and drink offerings. They made no mention, as today, of “memorial sacrifices.” That is a modern man-made extra-biblical term that is rabbited by the masses in order to justify the unjustifiable.

The old imperfect sacrifices made by the representative priests in the old covenant were superseded at the cross by the one final satisfactory sacrifice by the one true eternal priest – the Lord Jesus Christ. Man has now only one true heavenly high priest and requires none other. The new covenant with a new priesthood had eternally removed the old covenant with the old priesthood.

Eusebius the historian records Caius of Rome, (17 December, AD 283 to 22 April, AD 296), in his criticism of Cerinthus. He does not go into all the detail of Dionysius, but makes general sweeping statements in regard to his Premillennialism:

By means of revelations which he pretends were written by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things which he falsely claims were shown him by angels; and he says that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem will again be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy of the Scriptures of God, he asserts, with the purpose of deceiving men, that there is to be a period of a thousand years for marriage festivals (Church History, Book III, Chapter 28).

Cerinthus was a follower and advocate of the Jewish law, something Epiphanius (who was Bishop of Constantia in Cyprus, 310-403AD) alludes to in his writings:

Cerinthus … adhered in part to Judaism. He, however, claims that the Law and prophets have been given by the angels, and the law-giver is one of the angels who have made the world (The Panarion, Against Cerinthians or Merinthians, 1:3).

He goes on to allege:

Cerinthus stirred the circumcised multitudes up over Peter on his return to Jerusalem by saying, “He went in to men uncircumcised.” Cerinthus did this before preaching his doctrine in Asia and falling into the deeper pit of his destruction. For, because he was circumcised himself he sought an excuse, through circumcision if you please, for his opposition to the uncircumcised believers (The Panarion, Against Cerinthians or Merinthians, 2:5-6).

Theodoret (Antioch Syria, died October 22, 362) also strongly repudiates Cerinthus and his false teaching, saying:

For, unlike that of Cerinthus and of those whose views are similar to his, the kingdom of our God and Saviour is not to be of this earth, nor circumscribed by a specific time. Those men create for themselves in imagination a period of a thousand years, and luxury that will pass, and other pleasures, and along with them, sacrifices and Jewish solemnities. As for ourselves, we await the life that knows no growing old (Compendium of Heretics’ Fables, 5.21).

This is the simplistic early overview of modern day Premilennialism. It is what they teach and preach. Little do many know, but, the ancient source of their teaching is the ancient Judaizing heretics. The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for this founder of early Premillennialist. He wrongly and strongly promoted the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in the future. The “sacrifices and Jewish solemnities” endorsed to arise in a future millennium refers to the full gamut of the Old Testament Mosaic sacrifice system. Cerinthus is the first promoter of a thousand years of blood-letting surrounding the abolished old covenant feasts and festivals.

Truth7t7 · Sep 18, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
There is no way in this universe Jesus can be the first resurrection of Rev. 20! It directly refers to those who refused the mark and were beheaded. And the Bible makes it clear it is not a "He" but a "they". So unless you believe jesus is multiple people the answer is no.

but then again when you start symbolizing things here and there, you can alter any verse of Scripture.

We Agree Ron, the "Reformed Eschatology" is wrong in many areas, and this is one of the many errors

They also push the 66-70AD preterist fulfillment regarding Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation, major error concerning future events that are unfulfilled

WPM · Sep 18, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
So you consider Paul a heretic? JOhn a heretic? good to know! You pulled this garbage once before and it flopped.

Cerinthius was a gnostic and would reject a physical millenium on earth.

You have failed to quote any of their eschatology. Holding heresy in one area does not neccesitate their eschatology is heretical.

I know of no modern dispensational believers of eschatology to hold that "dual covenant" view you write here. I am sure trhere are some, just like most amils reject the concept that God will have anything to do further with Israel as a nation, though it is written in both testaments.

Marcion

Through his distorted view of the Hebrew Scriptures, Marcion also advanced the idea of the full recovery of the Jewish tradition in the future. He saw the nation retaking its favored Old Testament position above all nations again in the future. He absurdly believed that Israel, according to Old Testament prophecies, has its own unique Messiah, who is distinct to the Jesus of the New Testament.

Listen to Tertullian, a well-known Chiliast, of Carthage, Africa, (now Tunisia), (160 – 220 AD) in Against Marcion Book III, Chapter XXI:

So you cannot get out of this notion of yours a basis for your difference between the two Christs, as if the Jewish Christ were ordained by the Creator for the restoration of the people alone from its dispersion, whilst yours was appointed by the supremely good God for the liberation of the whole human race. Because, after all, the earliest Christians are found on the side of the Creator, not of Marcion, all nations being called to His kingdom, from the fact that God set up that kingdom from the tree (of the cross).

Here you have the seeds of modern-day Premillennialism. To Marcion, the whole idea of the “restoration” of the “Jewish … people” to their land involved the full return of the old covenant scheme, something rejected by early Chiliasts but anticipated on the millennial earth by most Premils today. Marcion also believed that there were two peoples of God, a doctrine unknown to ancient Chiliasm, but prevalent with Dispensationalism today. He made a clear distinction between Israel and the Church, although this arch heretic imagined two different God’s and two different Messiahs overseeing each company.

Tertullian explains in Chapter VI:

Marcion has laid down the position, that Christ who in the days of Tiberius was, by a previously unknown god, revealed for the salvation of all nations, is a different being from Him who was ordained by God the Creator for the restoration of the Jewish state, and who is yet to come.

It seems from the early censures of Marcion by both early Chiliasts and early Amillennialists that the restoration of the Jewish state was at the center and forefront of his eschatological hope. This was not found in any of the orthodox early writers. The Church was God’s only spiritual elect and the true people of God.

Tertullian continues in Chapter XXIV (Christ’s Millennial and Heavenly Glory in Company with His Saints),

God’s kingdom in an everlasting and heavenly possession. Besides, your Christ promises to the Jews their primitive condition, with the recovery of their country; and after this life’s course is over, repose in Hades in Abraham’s bosom.

Tertullian takes Marcion to task over his view that the Jewish Messiah (who was said to be different from Jesus Christ) would give “the Jews their primitive condition, with the recovery of their country.” Here he was advocating the legitimacy of, and the Jewish return to, the old covenant ceremonial system. It is important to say at this juncture, not one of the orthodox early Chiliasts promoted this theology. This was a belief that was outside of the pale of orthodoxy – both Amillennial and Chiliast. It was a Jewish heresy advocated by the neo-Gnostics like Cerinthus and Marcion.

In Marcion’s theology, we see how there was a strong prevailing view among the early heretics that God would bring Israel back to their previous theocratic place of favor. This was strongly rejected by ancients Amils and Premils.

Tertullian (an early Chiliast) refutes Marcion’s error, stating:

As for the restoration of Judæa, however, which even the Jews themselves, induced by the names of places and countries, hope for just as it is described, it would be tedious to state at length how the figurative interpretation is spiritually applicable to Christ and His church, and to the character and fruits thereof (Against Marcion Book III, Chapter 24).

Orthodox early Chiliast, Tertullian represents the prevailing thought among his peers on national Israel here, demonstrating that the people of God can only be found in the Church of Jesus Christ. There is no second group. There is no alternative place of favor. There is no other plan of salvation.

Marcion's invented Christ would meet all the faulty hyper-literal expectations that the apostate Christ-rejecting Jews desired - including restoring them back to their former land and elevating them to their former glory as God's chosen people and an elite race lording over all the Gentile nations. Whilst orthodox Premils reject the "2 Messiahs heresy" they run with Marcion's future millennial expectancy of a temporary carnal earthly kingdom focused mainly upon the Jews, Jerusalem and the old covenant practice. This is classic Premil!

Hill argued: “Marcion conceded to the Jews the reality of a full chiliastic hope, complete with a messianic deliverer, restoration to the land of promise, and refreshment in the infernal realms for the faithful dead! (The lack of any mention of resurrection is, however, to be noted.) He agreed with the Jews, and against catholic Christians, that the Christ promised in the Old Testament had not yet come. Marcion taught that the Creator’s Christ, when at last he came, would indeed restore the fortunes of the Jewish nation just as the Jews were convinced he would. Marcion of course wanted nothing to do with this Creator, his Christ, or the benefits they would lavish upon the Jews; to him they all savored of the same earthly and fleshly stench which his heavenly Savior had come to dispel. But part of his polemical program against orthodox Christianity was to insist that the Jews were right and the Christians were wrong about the interpretation of the prophets. The Jewish, nationalistic Messiah predicted in the Old Testament bore no likeness to the Christ of the higher God who came to earth during the reign of Tiberius to effect the salvation of mankind.”

The heretical dualists were Premil literalists who opposed the more-figurative Amillennialist position. Origen in his Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew 15.3, explained how Marcion "prohibited allegorical interpretations of the scripture."

As a Premil, Marcion was a literalist and took the thousand years as a literal period of time after the second coming that involved the continuation of this physical age and all its pleasures and afflictions.

Origen actually summed up the ethos of those that held to a future millennium saturated in mortals (including the wicked) and who promoted the return of the old covenant arrangement as “understand the divine Scriptures in a sort of Jewish sense” (De Principiis, Book 2, Chapter XI).

This is the classic MO of modern-day Premils. They hurl the same charges at Amillennialists as these ancient heretics through at ancient orthodox Church generally. It comes up continually in discussions with Premils.

WPM · Sep 18, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
So you consider Paul a heretic? JOhn a heretic? good to know! You pulled this garbage once before and it flopped.

Cerinthius was a gnostic and would reject a physical millenium on earth.

You have failed to quote any of their eschatology. Holding heresy in one area does not neccesitate their eschatology is heretical.

I know of no modern dispensational believers of eschatology to hold that "dual covenant" view you write here. I am sure trhere are some, just like most amils reject the concept that God will have anything to do further with Israel as a nation, though it is written in both testaments.

Porphyry/Porphyrius

Porphyrius is another heretic who promoted the Premillennial doctrine. He was an enemy of orthodox Christianity and held views that were in conflict with the more-moderate classic early Chiliasm. He was another Judaizer who tried to foist old covenant practices upon New Testament Christianity. He also promoted the full return of the old covenant ceremonial law and festivals.

Jerome strongly refuted him, and exposed his error:

[T]he blasphemer Porphyrius – and who assert that the ceremonies of the old Law should be observed in the Church of Christ by the stock of faithful Israel, those should also look forward to a golden Jerusalem for 1000 years, that they may offer sacrifices and be circumcised, that they may sit on the Sabbath, sleep, become sated, drunk, and to rise to frolic, their amusement being offensive to God (Commentary to Isaiah, Chapter XXIV).

Jerome was not painting all Chiliasts with the same brush. Quite the opposite! He was specifically exposing this early heretical Premillennialist who advocated the full restoration of the old covenant arrangement in a future thousand years, including the pointless slaughter of countless innocent animals during that period. This was not an opinion that orthodox Chiliasts held, taught or accepted anywhere throughout the early Church.

All of these Premil heretics were notably professing Gentile "Christians" who were besotted with Old Testament Israel and its ancient practices. Consequently, they tried to create a theological system that would accommodate their distorted view of Christianity and Judaism. They achieved this by creating parallel train-tracks that could accommodate the coexistence and co-acceptance of two diverse religious systems in a dual covenant theology. This is exactly what Dispensationalism has done today. It is fixated with natural Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, the return of animal sacrifices in some supposed future millennium and the restarting of the abolished old covenant priesthood. They have invented two peoples of God to suit its theology.

The heretics believed that their hopes would be finally realized after the second coming, in an earthly messianic kingdom, one in which Israel would be brought back to its ancient favored position reigning over the Gentile nations from old Jerusalem. This new arrangement would see Gentiles submitting to the long-abolished primitive old covenant customs, rules and ceremonies. Ancient Jerusalem would become the center-point once again of global worship to Israel’s God. This age would last a thousand years and would see the full return of all Old Testament religious structure, including priesthood, sacrifices, circumcision, and Sabbath keeping.

Porphyrius wrote his twelfth book against the prophecy of Daniel. Jerome strongly refuted his teaching point by point. Speaking about Daniel 2.40 (“He became a great mountain and filled the whole earth”), he responded:

Now the fourth empire, which clearly refers to the Romans, is the iron empire which breaks in pieces and overcomes all others. But its feet and toes are partly of iron and partly of earthenware, a fact most clearly demonstrated at the present time. For just as there was at the first nothing stronger or hardier than the Roman realm, so also in these last days there is nothing more feeble, since we require the assistance of barbarian tribes both in our civil wars and against foreign nations. However, at the final period of all these empires of gold and silver and bronze and iron, a rock (namely, the Lord and Savior) was cut off without hands, that is, without copulation or human seed and by birth from a virgin's womb; and after all the empires had been crushed, He became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. This last the Jews and the impious Porphyry apply to the people of Israel, who they insist will be the strongest power at the end of the ages, and will crush all realms and will rule forever.
This last the Jews and the impious Porphyry apply to the people of Israel, who they insist will be the strongest power at the end of the ages, and will crush all realms and will rule forever (Commentary on Daniel, Prologue, on Daniel 2.40).

According to Jerome: Porphyrius expected the restoration of natural Israel to its old covenant place of favor over all other nations in the last of the last days. Israel would then subjugate the Gentile nations and rule over them. He anticipates a superior position for ethnic Israel above all nations, with them exercising “the strongest power” over them.

Porphyry cuts across the widespread belief amongst the ECFs (Chiliast and early Amils) that the New Testament persistently teaches that under the new covenant, and in Christ Jesus, all nationalities equally partake of the spiritual blessings God promised to that nation through faith. Basically: Jews and Gentiles are equal before God. The whole notion of ethnicity deserving some type of special favor with God in our day is repeatedly and strongly blown out of the water in the early Christian writers.

WPM · Sep 18, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
So you consider Paul a heretic? JOhn a heretic? good to know! You pulled this garbage once before and it flopped.

Cerinthius was a gnostic and would reject a physical millenium on earth.

You have failed to quote any of their eschatology. Holding heresy in one area does not neccesitate their eschatology is heretical.

I know of no modern dispensational believers of eschatology to hold that "dual covenant" view you write here. I am sure trhere are some, just like most amils reject the concept that God will have anything to do further with Israel as a nation, though it is written in both testaments.

Apollinarius of Laodicea

Apollinarius took up the ancient Premillennial baton from these early heretics. Notably, he too was a prominent heretic who was strongly opposed and renounced by the universal Church of his day. Very little of what he wrote has been passed down to us. Most of it was destroyed as heretical. Most of what we have comes from his theological opponents who were strong in their renunciations.

Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa said of Apollinarius of Laodicea, that his theology taught that “the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored” (Dogmatic Treatises, Etc.; Letter XVII – To Eustathia).

Basil the Great describes what Apollinarius believed

Apollinarius [of Laodicea], who is no less a cause of sorrow to the Churches. With his facility of writing, and a tongue ready to argue on any subject, he has filled the world with his works ... What he writes on theology is not founded on Scripture, but on human reasonings. He has written about the resurrection, from a mythical, or rather Jewish, point of view; urging that we shall return again to the worship of the Law, be circumcised, keep the Sabbath, abstain from meats, offer sacrifices to God, worship in the Temple at Jerusalem, and be altogether turned from Christians into Jews. What could be more ridiculous? Or, rather, what could be more contrary to the doctrines of the Gospel? (Letters and Select Works: Letter 263, 4 - To the Westerns).

Here is an outline of classic Premillennial teaching. Again, noticeably, this was held by an early heretic who was strongly resisted by the orthodox Christian Church. This was foreign teaching to them in the light of what Christ ushered in through the new covenant. Apollinarius taught that Israel would be restored to her previous old covenant place for preference over all other nations.

But, most troubling to the early writers, was the early Premillennial promotion of the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in the future. This was despite the well-established beliefs of the Patristic writers that the New Testament Scripture makes clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5).

Apollinarianism was condemned by a council at Alexandria in 362 A.D. at Roman councils in 377 A.D. and 378 A.D. In the second Ecumenical Council and the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD the Church leaders renounced Apollinarius as a heretic. He is actually repudiated by name in Canon 1 and Canon 7. Along with his other fellow heretics he was to be “anathematized.”

Gregory the Theologian also criticized Apollinarius in his letter to Cledonius the Priest Against Apollinarius (Epistle CI. (101), highlighting his Premillennial beliefs.

I would they were even cut off that trouble you, and would reintroduce a second Judaism, and a second circumcision, and a second system of sacrifices. For if this be done, what hinders Christ also being born again to set them aside, and again being betrayed by Judas, and crucified and buried, and rising again, that all may be fulfilled in the same order, like the Greek system of cycles, in which the same revolutions of the stars bring round the same events.

Jerome targets the theology of the early Premillennial heretics, mentioning Apollinaris in particular in his renunciation:

Dionysius the bishop of the church of Alexandria, wrote a ﬁne book mocking the tale of the millennium, as well as the golden and bejeweled earthly Jerusalem, the restoration of the temple, the blood of sacriﬁces, the idleness of the sabbath, the injury of circumcision, nuptials, child birth, child-rearing, the delights of feasting, and the servitude of all nations, and once again wars, armies, and triumphs, and the slaughter of the vanquished, and the death of the hundred-year-old sinner. Apollinaris responded to him in two volumes, and he is followed not only by men of his own sect, but also by a great multitude of our own, at least in this matter, so that I already perceive with foreboding that the anger of many will be aroused against me (Commentary to Isaiah, Preface to Book 18).

For Jerome, the Premillennial scheme was “a tale.” Others would similarly call it “a fable.” The idea of a future age in-between “this age” and “the age to come” was quite fanciful to many of the early Amil writers. When the detail of the heretical Premillennialist heretics were threw into the mix, with their expectation of more ongoing sin, more decay, more sickness, more death, more sin offerings, etc, etc, it was hardly surprising that many found this far-fetched. When you add all the religious actors that populate the millennium and give their feigned allegiance to Christ and then turn on Him when Satan appears 1000 years after the second coming, then you are looking at a doctrine that seems beyond the pale of reality and truth. When they then argued that a future earth will see the mortal wicked interact with the glorified saints for a thousand years then you are looking at a clear non-corroborative doctrine.

In an article Jerome’s Judaizers, Hillel I. Newman argues: “So far as we know, none of these authors maintained hopefully that in the millennial kingdom all would offer sacriﬁces and keep the sabbath and that all men would be circumcised.”

Premil Lyford Paterson Edwards even concedes: “we see the unfortunate fate of Chiliasm in getting mixed up with heresies with which it, as such, had nothing to do. The extraordinary detestation which overtook Apollinaris as arch-heretic par excellence seems to have finally discouraged Chiliasm in the Eastern Church. It was reckoned as a heresy thereafter and though it appears sporadically down to our own day it is of no more interest for our purpose” (The Transformation of Early Christianity from an Eschatological to a Socialized Movement).

The later Jacobite bishop of Dara, in Mesopotamia (d. 845), John of Dara exposes Apollonarius for his millennialist teaching:

Apollonarius the heretic, with his companions, abandoned the glorious illumination of the living words and became blind to the faith like the Jews. He dared to speak, like the Pharisees, that after the resurrection of the dead, we shall live again for a thousand years in Jerusalem with the Messiah, with bodily pleasures, and childish sacrifices, and earthly libations before him [the Messiah?]. After these things are fulfilled, at that time we shall be taken up into heaven. And he was not shamed by the voice of Paul who said, “The kingdom of God is not of eating or drinking. But of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” Also in like manner Irenaeus bishop of Lyon in Gaul wandered in these matters, which are in the book of Papias as Eusebius narrates (On the Resurrection of Bodies 2.13).

John of Dara likens Apollonarius’ Premillennialism to Phariseeism. He rubbishes the idea of Judaic temple ceremonial in Jerusalem for a thousand years in front of the Messiah.

These ancient heretical Premillennialists fell into the same trap as the Pharisees with their faulty hyper-literal mind-set, who because of such, ended up crucifying Christ. The problem was, they were stuck in the Old Testament, fixated with the earthly, physical, temporal and the natural. These ancient writers focused in on Israel and a temporal future earthly kingdom full of warfare, carnal pleasures and ethnic separation. They promise a continuation of pain, sin, death, suffering, tears, hatred, war, funerals. This whole carnal expectation seems to blue the reason why the second coming is so splendid. It is the final return of Christ in all power and glory to abolish all unrighteousness and to set up a perfect, just and eternal kingdom where wickedness and corruption are forbidden.

WPM · Sep 18, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
YOu have rewritten too much of Scripture and moved the order of verses t3o fit an amil reinterpretation of Scripture that I cannot answer it all.

About the only thing the Bible and you agree on in all this hodge podge of allegorizing and reinterpreting is that Satan is cast into teh Lake before the new heaven and earth. RIGHT BEFORE if one wished to believe the INspired Word of God instead of teh reinterpreted Word.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And Peter and Paul disagree with you that satan is currently abyssed.

You are avoiding issues.

WPM · Sep 18, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
Well as I want Siritual Israelite to answer, I will await their answer. I already know your opinion.

Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is no way in this universe Jesus can be the first resurrection of Rev. 20! It directly refers to those who refused the mark and were beheaded. And the Bible makes it clear it is not a "He" but a "they". So unless you believe jesus is multiple people the answer is no.

but then again when you start symbolizing things here and there, you can alter any verse of Scripture.

You reject the supporting corroboration because it exposes Premil. Christ is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection - Christ's or the resurrection that occurs at the second coming? This is a pretty simply question.

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in time.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in place.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in order.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in importance.

Many overlook the phrase "hath part." Whatever that refers to will seal this debate. The unfortunate thing for Premils is that it is present tense. So whatever resurrection it is speaking of, believers currently have their "part" in it. Whatever “the first resurrection” is, participation in it qualifies humans’ to escape the horrors of eternal punishment (the second death). In this experience Christians identify with Christ’s victorious resurrection.

The Greek for “that hath part” is echo méros. The Greek verb echo correctly interpreted “that hath” in the King James Version is written in the present tense and in the active voice. Therefore, we can view the relevance and vitality of “the first resurrection” as being both current and ongoing. Christ’s victory over death is not simply a past event that has no active bearing upon what we are today; it is ongoing reality in the lives of God’s people. The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

This passage is describing the reality and result of our mystical union with Christ. The expression “in Christ” [Gr. en Christo] is found 216 times in the New Testament and refers to our federal and covenantal standing. It shows us that our spiritual status is totally derived from and dependent upon relationship with Christ. Upon salvation we are united to Christ. He is the head we are the body. The blessing, decisions and authority come through the head.

This matter is absolutely crucial to understanding Revelation 20 and conclusively damning for the Premil doctrine. That is why Premils duck round it.

When we get saved we become one with Jesus Christ spiritually. We identify with Christ and the victory He won over sin, death and the grave. As He died, was buried and conquered death, we also have our “part” in His success.

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second
death.”

The word “overcometh” here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

WPM · Sep 18, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
We Agree Ron, the "Reformed Eschatology" is wrong in many areas, and this is one of the many errors

They also push the 66-70AD preterist fulfillment regarding of Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation, major error concerning future events that are unfulfilled

I am not Preterist. Most Amils (Historicists, Idealist and Preterist) believe in the fulfillment of Daniel's AOD and the Great Tribulation. So it is you that is out of step with the majority of fellow Amils. And no, it is not "major error" to hold this. It is wrong to suggest that. Scripture supports this. Now, please look at the evidence.

A lot of Bible students read Matthew 24 in isolation to its parallel accounts in the other gospels and therefore miss out on a lot of light in regard to what Jesus was actually talking about. It it’s fair to say that Matthew compresses together the two separate events in focus (AD 70 and the final return of Christ at the end) in his account more than the two parallel accounts of Mark and Luke. Mark and Luke's accounts better show the distinction between these two events a lot clearer. Together they shed much light on these two incidents.

Another mistake that many eschatology students seem to make is that they ignore the introduction to Matthew 24 (in Matthew 23:32-36) which gives us a real sense of what we are looking at in this challenging (and much-debated) chapter. This passage sets the stage and context for what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24. These 2 chapters and their parallel accounts also help us understand Daniel 9. In Matthew 23 we see Christ condemning the Jews rejection of Himself (and His impending atonement). He thus pronounced eight ‘woes’ upon them, and then declared, “Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation” (Matthew 23:32-36).

Christ here reveals the staggering magnitude of the judgment that was about to befall the Jews (of “this generation”), their capital and their centre of worship. They would receive the awesome punishment for all the innocent blood shed by God’s elect for the faith up until then. The Lord said: “upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth.” This generation of Jews, who would eventually brutally crucify the King of glory, would receive the full recompense of all the wicked acts that were perpetrated by their “fathers.”

The whole great tribulation in view in the aforementioned passages is a consequence of the Jews rejection of Messiah and expressly emanates from God.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!

Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.

Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

WPM · Sep 18, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
We Agree Ron, the "Reformed Eschatology" is wrong in many areas, and this is one of the many errors

They also push the 66-70AD preterist fulfillment regarding Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation, major error concerning future events that are unfulfilled

In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Plainly: “the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standing “in the holy place” relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.

The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.

How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

Truth7t7 · Sep 18, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Plainly: “the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standing “in the holy place” relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.

The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.

How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

"This Generation Shall Not Pass, Till All These Things Be Fulfilled"

Future Events Unfulfilled!

1.) Paul Matthew 24:15 is Daniel's Abomination of Desolation

2.) Paul Matthew 24:21 is the Great Tribulation

3.) Paul Matthew 24:29-30 Is the literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven

They Shall See, Not You Shall See, A Future Generation That Will Witness The Literal, Visible, Second Coming

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Paul the generation below is a "Future" generation that will be eye witnesses of (1. Daniel's AOD), the (2. Great Tribulation) and the literal, visible (3. Second Coming) of Jesus in the clouds of heaven, these events are future unfulfilled

Matthew 24:32-34KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

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