How Many Resurrections Are There? (Rapture Topic)

Scripture does claim two resurrections, one pre-mil, one post-mil.

What's the problem? You can tell me, 'Scribe... B)

God's Word, like Isaiah 25 and 1 Cor.15 with the resurrection, reveals it involves a change to a "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly" which Paul declared in 1 Cor.15. The "caught up" idea of 1 Thess.4 is in relation to that change being required first, and does not reveal the idea of rotted flesh in the casket being joined back with spirit. In 1 Cor.15:50 Apostle Paul was specific that flesh and blood cannot inherit the resurrection state of "incorruption". It would be like treating the "image of the heavenly" body as if it were a flesh body.

1 Thess.4, 1 Cor.15, Ezek.44, Isa.25, Rev.20, Matt.24 and Mark 13, John 5:28-29, Rev.7 about the 144,000 and great multitude, all MUST agree with each other. If interpretation of any one of those Scriptures concerning the resurrection conflicts with any of the other examples, then it is a faulty interpretation showing more Bible study is needed.

Rev 20:4 & 5 is simply stating that those that accompany Christ to Armageddon, set-up shop in Jerusalem and rule the nations of the earth from there for 1000 years with Christ as their mentor. Those that were resurrected in the first resurrection include all the Disciples and everyone in Christ since then, to that pre-mil time. What's the problem?

Those who die on earth in the MK time of Christ's earthly rule do not live again until the resurrection of the dead at the time of the GWT Judgment after the end of the MK.

Two resurrections, one pre-mil, one post-mil. The sentence structure of John's writing wasn't so hot, but the intent is clearly understandable. hey, chalk it up to translation....

BibleScribe said:

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Veteran, I really don't think applying Revelation 20 is "going outside of Scripture". So instead of making this broad sweeping statement, maybe you could explain why your sequence is:

1. pre- mid- post- tribulation resurrection of the dead, and rapture of the living

2. pre-millennial (the FIRST) resurrection of the martyred


... and arrive such that the FIRST is actually the SECOND:

Rev. 20:4-5
[sup]4[/sup] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] But therest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


BibleScribe

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I never said the "first resurrection" IS the second one; you did.

I said a SECOND one LIKE THE FIRST is inferred by the ordinal idea of "first" (protos in the Greek, foremost in time, or place, order of importance - Strong's no. 4413).

If one speaks of 'a revolution' of a wheel, they aren't talking about multiple revolutions. They're only speaking of a single one. However, if ones speaks of a 'first revolution', it automatically suggests at least another revolution is to follow the first.

Likewise in the Rev.20 Scripture, if ONLY 'a' single resurrection was intended, then it would have simply been described as "the resurrection", and would not include that ordinal idea of "first".


It is assumed... by many, that at the end of the "thousand years" the "dead" of Rev.20:5 will be resurrected to stand in judgment, and then cast into the "lake of fire". That assumption includes the idea that those have no presence during Christ's thousand years reign with His elect, but are only resurrected at the end to go into perdition of the lake of fire.

But BOOM!! That assumption causes an immediate conflict with what Christ taught in John 5:28-29 about the "resurrection of damnation" happening at the SAME TIME as the "resurrection of life". Likewise with Rev.3:9 about those of the "synagogue of Satan" bowing at the feet of Christ's elect DURING the thousand years. And it also conflicts with Zech.14 about those left of the nations that came upon Jerusalem being made to worship The King (Christ Jesus) during His Millennium reign. It also causes a conflict with what Paul said in Acts 24:15 that he also had a 'hope' for a resurrection of the unjust.

Acts 24:15 by Apostle Paul reveals HOW he saw the idea of the resurrection at Christ's future coming. To have a 'hope' that the unjust (wicked) will be resurrected also is NOT in the negative, like a hope they would only be raised to go into the lake of fire. His hope for them shows his hope that at least some of the "resurrection of damnation" would be saved during Christ's "thousand years" reign. Since the OT prophets do reveal the existence of the wicked being there during Christ's Millennium reign, that agrees with all the other NT Scripture about it also.

BibleScribe said:

You insist that there's a tribulation era resurrection of the dead, and the accompanying rapture of the living. (This makes a FIRST resurrection.) And Rev. 20:5 says the pre-millennial resurrection of the martyred is the FIRST.

So what you depict contradicts Scripture, because my math say after the FIRST comes the SECOND, and Scripture ONLY accounts for the Martyred as the FIRST. Thus the only way you can get to your church "rapture" is for it to follow the return of Christ, and NOT precede the return of Christ. Then your church "rapture" would be the SECOND.

Are you really this bad in math?

BibleScribe

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Nope. I never said anything about some "tribulation era resurrection of the dead" either. That's your own take.

The tribulation ends... with Christ's second coming, and that's also when both TYPES of resurrection happen.

The "resurrection of damnation" is included with the general resurrection time at Christ's coming. It's simply a different TYPE than the "resurrection of life". Yet it's still a resurrection. And that's exactly what Christ taught with the John 5:28-29 verses. It also agrees with all other Scripture involving the resurrection of the unjust being present and aware throughout Christ's "thousand years" reign.

BibleScribe said:

You insist that there's a tribulation era resurrection of the dead, and the accompanying rapture of the living. (This makes a FIRST resurrection.) And Rev. 20:5 says the pre-millennial resurrection of the martyred is the FIRST.

So what you depict contradicts Scripture, because my math say after the FIRST comes the SECOND, and Scripture ONLY accounts for the Martyred as the FIRST. Thus the only way you can get to your church "rapture" is for it to follow the return of Christ, and NOT precede the return of Christ. Then your church "rapture" would be the SECOND.

Are you really this bad in math?

BibleScribe

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The matter is that the Scripture does NOT literally say anything about a 2nd resurrection of the dead. A 2nd one is only inferred by the idea of a "first" one.

So what KIND of resurrection is the 2nd inferred one?

Many automatically assume it means the "resurrection of damnation", but that idea contradicts what Christ taught in John 5:28-29. Christ showed those who have done evil will be of the "resurrection of damnation" at His coming, which is when His Millennium reign begins. That means... the wicked are resurrected at the same time as His saints.

General Resurrection =
1. "resurrection of life" (or "first resurrection")
2. "resurrection of damnation"

BOTH of those occur at Christ's coming to end the tribulation, but they are actually one 'general' resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

According to Paul in 1 Cor.15:53-54, everyone will be resurrected at Christ's coming on the last trump.

But the unjust will STILL be in a condition of 'liable to die' (Greek thnetos with "touto thnetos" in verse 54). That's about the part he said "this mortal" must put on "immortality" (Greek athanasia - deathlessness) to be of the "resurrection of life".

And that 'liable to die' (thnetos) condition for the unjust means they are still... subject to the "second death".

So being resurrected at Christ's second coming does NOT mean automatic Salvation for the unjust, yet they also will be resurrected at the time of Christ's coming. Those will still be subject to the "second death", still in a liable to die condition even while in resurrection type bodies. It's wrong to assume the resurrection is about automatic Salvatiion, for it is not so for those of the "resurrection of damnation". But it is for those of the "resurrection of life" who live unto Christ Jesus and belong to Him.

BibleScribe said:

Rev. 20:5
[sup]5[/sup] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is the SECOND resurrection.


Per YOUR version:

1. Tribulation era dead resurrected, and living are raptured. -- (The FIRST)

2. Martyred dead are resurrected. -- (The SECOND)


Per Scripture:

1. Martyred dead are resurrected. -- (The FIRST)

BibleScribe

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Nope. You're trying to make the last statement of Rev.20:5 apply to its first statement about the "dead". Won't work...

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(KJV)

All the underlined parts are only about those who reign with Christ, i.e., those of the 'first resurrection". Obviously, those who reign with Christ are NOT the Rev.20:5 "dead".

The Rev.20:7-8 verses then describe who are meant by the "dead"...

Rev 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(KJV)

Still no.

The "first resurrection" are all those of the "resurrection of life" per John 5:28-29. They include all the faithful saints from the beginning of this world to the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns, which also starts the "thousand years" of Rev.20. Per Rev.7, it's not just those 144,000, but the "great multitude" of the Gentiles that stand before Christ too.

The 'dead that lived not again until...' = "the resurrection of damnation" per John 5:28-29. These are resurrected at the same time as Christ's saints still alive on earth are, at His second coming. The difference with these, is that their spiritual condition is WITHOUT ETERNAL LIFE, as these will STILL be subject to the "second death". These will go through the "thousand years" in a place of separation OUTSIDE the Holy City, just as Christ showed...


Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)


Those will be alive in resurrection bodies, but their spiritual condition will still be without Christ, just as today's difference between those who have believed on The Saviour Jesus Christ, and those who still refuse Him. So the idea of their not 'living' again until the thousand years is over is in the sense of immortality per The Salvation in Christ sense. These will be taught God's Truth during the thousand years. It will be their FIRST chance to 'hear' and 'believe' The Gospel with open spiritual eyes and ears.

Then at the end of the thousand years, Satan will be loosed one more time, in order to test these. Then at the final Judgment, the books are opened, and anyone not found in the Book of Life is cast into the "lake of fire" along with death, hell, and Satan (Rev.20:7 to end). Some of these that were 'dead' (spiritually) will believe, and be found written in the book of Life and will be changed to the "resurrection of life" like those of the "first resurrection". THAT is the second inferred resurrection unto LIFE in Christ Jesus at the end of the thousand years.

First Resurrection = Resurrection of dead and living in Christ, pre-mil.

Second Resurrection = Resurrection of the dead for the GWTJ, post-mil.

That simple folks....You guys are complicating the obvious....don't worry about the fate of the damned, either post-mil or pre-mil.


Now, what other wisdom do you guys want to learn from me?

Well, understanding Revelation does depend upon understanding Genesis to Revelation all the way through...

Would that include John's witness of Christ's Word per John 5:28-29. Yes, I believe it does.

So mock all you want to. You only show arrogance and ignorance by doing that.

If the Rev.20:5 "dead" are not raised until the END of the "thousand years" at the great white throne judgment, then WHO are those of the "resurrection of damnation" that Christ declared will be raised along with the "resurrection of life" at His coming? Christ does NOT return at the END of the "thousand years", but at the BEGINNING of the "thousand years."

So if one wants to look silly, go ahead, try to make Scripture fit the raising of the John 5:28-29 "resurrection of damnation" at the END of the "thousand years".

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)


Obviously, those who want to stick with the tradition about the Rev.20:5 "dead" raised at the end of the "thousand years" don't want to address that John 5:28-29 Scripture as written. Are there others comparable to that one of John 5? Yes...


Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(KJV)

Notice that Dan.12:2 does not say the "resurrection of life" happens at one time, and the "resurrection of damnation" happens later at another time. They both... happen at the same time.


Matt 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
(KJV)

Nations?? How is it that nations will still exist in that Millennium time? Even Rev.20:7-9 reveals the existence of those nations TO THE END OF the Rev.20 "thousand years"! Why? Because the GWT judgment doesn't occur until AFTER the Rev.20:7-10 events! That has to mean those "nations" being in existence THROUGHOUT the "thousand years".


And Christ Jesus revealed just WHERE those nations of the "dead" will be DURING His thousand years reign...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

What does "For without" mean? Per those two Rev.22:14-15 verses, it means OUTSIDE THE HOLY CITY. Well, who's INSIDE the Holy City during the "thousand years"??? Christ and His elect priests and kings, i.e., His servants of the "first resurrection".

So HOW can those "nations" outside the "camp of the saints" and gates of the "holy city" even be there, IF they are not raised at the start of the "thousand years"?


One more example...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(KJV)

That part of Zechariah 14 is of the time AFTER Christ's return and the start of His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

Notice those "nations" there. Where did we read about 'nations' in the Rev.20 Scripture for during the "thousand years"? In the Rev.20:7-9 verses.

That part of the Zech.14 Scripture reveals something very amazing about that future time. Christ will have already returned, gathered His elect to Him, and His elect will be reigning with Him on earth at that time, as priests and kings (Rev.20). EVEN though Christ will have returned, every eye having seen Him like Rev.1 says, and STILL... there will be "nations" that will REFUSE to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him as "King, LORD of hosts", and keep the feast of tabernacles!!!

By the many existing Church traditions of what's it's gonna' be like after Christ's return and gathering of His saints, it's obvious this little tid-bit of information has been left out, that some "nations" in that future "thousand years" will STILL BE REBELLIOUS AGAINST CHRIST JESUS!

From Here to the coming of Christ there are two resurrections from the dead written in scripture "the resurrection of the two witnesses" and "the resurrection of the apostles and saints at the return of Christ to set up His kingdom here on earth".




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BibleScribe said:

Hi Veteran,

I'm not sure what your point is, but if you think that Rev. 20:4-5 is of no report, then that would be mocking GOD.



BibleScribe

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Oh, I think you well know by now what those Scriptures points I posted are about, but still refuse to heed it because of not being able to grasp it either from God having blinded you, and or from your desire to keep to men's tradition on it instead.