Baptism with the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation

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John Zain

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The Holy Spirit came INSIDE of us when we were born again, right?
Jesus promised, “the Spirit of truth … will be in you.” John 14:17
"... His Spirit who dwells in you" Romans 8:11
"... the Spirit of God dwells in you" 1 Corinthians 3:16
"... the Holy Spirit who dwells in us." 2 Timothy 1:14
"And by this we know that He abides in us ..." 1 John 3:24


There are also verses that speak of the Holy Spirit coming UPON some of
God's specially-anointed ones, which were given special tasks to perform:

David ... 1 Samuel 16:13
Elisha ... 2 Kings 2:9
Zechariah ... 2 Chronicles 24:20
Isaiah ... Isaiah 59:21
Ezekiel ... Ezekiel 11:5
Messiah ... Isaiah 11:2, 60:1-2, Matthew 12:18
Mary ... Luke 1:35
Jesus ... Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, Luke 4:18, John 1:32-34


Then later, there were more instances when the Spirit came UPON people:

“Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city
of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” Luke 24:49

“… wait for the Promise of the Father …
… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8

“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come … there appeared to them divided tongues,
as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Acts 2:1-4

How many people do you know who speak in tongues when being re-filled with the Spirit?

“… when they (Peter & John) had come down, (they) prayed for them (Samarians)
that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:15-17

Prior to this, they had received some other type of baptism, right?

“… the Holy Spirit fell upon all those (Gentiles) who heard the word …
the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they
(Peter's group) heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.” Acts 10:44-46

How many people do you know who speak in tongues?

“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (Gentiles), as upon us (Jews) at the beginning.
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ … ... God gave them the same gift
as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ” Acts 11:15-17

Quite possibly, their spirit baptism came at the same time as they were born again,
which has occurred many times all over the world.


“… they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came upon them,
and they spoke with tongues and prophesied …” Acts 19:5-6


Do you believe this is the born-again process? ...

The Holy Spirit comes UPON the person, he/she speaks in tongues, and then
the Holy Spirit moves INSIDE the person to remain there "forever" John 14:16?

No, normally, the person is first born again with the Holy Spirit entering INSIDE,
and then at a later date, the Holy Spirit comes UPON the person with a special anointing.


One of God's greatest evangelists, Smith Wigglesworth, said (and I'm paraphrasing):
"If you don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
you are living in a weak and impoverished condition."
Wigglesworth was used by God all over the world to perform all kinds of healing miracles,
including raising the dead.
Note: It's just like the Lord to choose a man with a name such as Smith's to dumbfound the world.
 

goodshepard55

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True the Holy Spirit baptism has nothing to do with salvation...Salvation is received when we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior...
 

FHII

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good thoughts! I'll have to think on it before totally agreeing, though.... But I do like it. Hebrews 10:29 suggests you may be right. However, you spoke of speaking in tongues twice. Some people may not realize that they (those in acts 2) weren't speaking in tongues like many pentacostils try to copy. They were speaking in other tongues, meaning other languages. Other people from other countries heard them preaching in their own language. There are "unknown tongues" in the Bible, but this is not it, and unknown tongues aren't as special as some would like to think.
 

rockytopva

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The Baptism of the Holy Spirit does have something to do with Salvation as you need to be saved to receive it.
 

rockytopva

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The Baptism of the Holy Spirit also has something to do with Sanctification as you need to be sanctified to receive it. As the scripture says...

And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. - Luke 5:36,37,38,39
 

Vengle

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good thoughts! I'll have to think on it before totally agreeing, though.... But I do like it. Hebrews 10:29 suggests you may be right. However, you spoke of speaking in tongues twice. Some people may not realize that they (those in acts 2) weren't speaking in tongues like many pentacostils try to copy. They were speaking in other tongues, meaning other languages. Other people from other countries heard them preaching in their own language. There are "unknown tongues" in the Bible, but this is not it, and unknown tongues aren't as special as some would like to think.

That is right. We principally are given by means of God's spirit to speak in the tongue of the new and pure language that is the truth of God. (Zephaniah 3:9) I surely will not presumptuously say though that God does not assist some with His spirit to speak in a common human foreigner's tongue for the purpose of sharing that truth that is the pure language.

And I agree over-all with what John Zain is saying (for I recognize the purpose of the 144,000 as God's government by Christ) but I worry that he does not realize that it all works similarly even for those not a part of that government. The difference is in degree; not in method. And that is why we do well to all strive after the example of them who will prove to be part of that government.

There is one way; not two. It is merely that we become as reflections (children) of the body of those who first conquer as we did not grow so quickly. We are the late harvest; they are the first harvest (firstfruits with the Christ who is the real firstfruit, they being his body). But the grandchildren are yet of the bodies of the fathers that were generations past even as we are all of Adam's body. And that is the goal.

One way; not two.
 

Wayne

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Then bring to think about the gift of the lord. I don't remember them all but I not sure what I got.
 

Vengle

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Then bring to think about the gift of the lord. I don't remember them all but I not sure what I got.

While I am not 100% sure what you mean I will say that it would be silly to believe that God would not use the potential He finds in any of us. He most assuredly blesses and cultivates the gifts in all who love him. He then uses us to the degree that our individual situations permit.

We can expect that from a God of whom Jesus said is able to raise up children to Abraham even of the stones.
 

IanLC

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It does not determine your salvation but it is an essential to your Christian walk. Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

Jesus declared in Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"

It is a crucial and critical element to the believers walk.
 

Selene

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It does not determine your salvation but it is an essential to your Christian walk. Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

Jesus declared in Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"

It is a crucial and critical element to the believers walk.

The Holy Spirit is God. He is the third person in the Holy Trinity. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same God. To reject one of these three persons is to reject even Jesus. To be baptized by the Holy Spirit does determine your salvation (See John 3:5).
 

John Zain

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Some people may not realize that they (those in acts 2) weren't speaking in tongues like many pentacostils try to copy.
They were speaking in other tongues, meaning other languages.
Other people from other countries heard them preaching in their own language.
There are "unknown tongues" in the Bible, but this is not it,
and unknown tongues aren't as special as some would like to think.

At the Acts 2 Pentecost, people were speaking in languages not understood by most present.
However, some present knew them.

When most pentecostals/charismatics speak in tongues,
they are just being odedient to manifest their gift from God.
For God's message to benefit the church, it must be interpreted.
If no one with this gift is available, and God desires the message to come forth,
He will have the anointed person give the message in English.

The 9 spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 are for today.
For example, one of my spiritual gifts is the gift of wisdom.
These are only given (in any kind of powerful way) to those having the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

As it was in the NT church, so it is today, that these 9 spiritual gifts
and also the 5-fold ministerial offices (Ephesians 4:11)
were/are only for those who have had this baptism of special anointing.

Officers in most churches today do not have this baptism,
and that is why the churches today are so weak and powerless, etc.
 

John Zain

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The Baptism of the Holy Spirit does have something to do with Salvation as you need to be saved to receive it.

The thread title was to pique the interest of those (like the Baptists) who believe that
the Holy Spirit verses are referring to the receiving of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation.

My latest attempts have focused on the difference between the IN and UPON verses,
and the Baptists have not been offerring any rebuttals to this quite powerful evidence
(i.e. I'm on the ignore list).

I do find it amazing that all 4 gospels emphasize the words of John the Baptist:
"He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit (and fire)" ... when this has nothing to do with salvation!
It has to do (primarily) with receiving an anointing to powerfully preach the gospel throughout the world.

Yes, this is how important it is to receive this baptism from Jesus.
I heartily recommend that every born-again believer keep seeking, asking, knocking, etc. at Jesus' door
... until they receive it.
 

rockytopva

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The thread title was to pique the interest of those (like the Baptists) who believe that
the Holy Spirit verses are referring to the receiving of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation.

My latest attempts have focused on the difference between the IN and UPON verses,
and the Baptists have not been offerring any rebuttals to this quite powerful evidence
(i.e. I'm on the ignore list).

I do find it amazing that all 4 gospels emphasize the words of John the Baptist:
"He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit (and fire)" ... when this has nothing to do with salvation!
It has to do (primarily) with receiving an anointing to powerfully preach the gospel throughout the world.

Yes, this is how important it is to receive this baptism from Jesus.
I heartily recommend that every born-again believer keep seeking, asking, knocking, etc. at Jesus' door
... until they receive it.

I believe that there were seven church ages...

1. Ephesus - Apostolic
2. Smyrna- Martyrs
3. Pergomos - Orthodox
4. Thyatira - Catholic
5. Sardis - Protestant
6. Philadelphia - Methodist / Pentecostal
7. Laodicean - Word of Faith / Charismatic

In which.. .Had there been Sardiseans aboard... The would have been more than happy to debate with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO8Y0vvWT0
 

veteran

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good thoughts! I'll have to think on it before totally agreeing, though.... But I do like it. Hebrews 10:29 suggests you may be right. However, you spoke of speaking in tongues twice. Some people may not realize that they (those in acts 2) weren't speaking in tongues like many pentacostils try to copy. They were speaking in other tongues, meaning other languages. Other people from other countries heard them preaching in their own language. There are "unknown tongues" in the Bible, but this is not it, and unknown tongues aren't as special as some would like to think.


But truly, there's no such thing as "unknown tongues" written of in God's Word either. The KJV translators added the word "unknown" in the 1 Corinthians Scripture where Paul was preaching.

Now if someone spoke a foreign language by The Holy Spirit that we had never heard before, it might indeed sound like gibberish to us. But if one who spoke that language were present, that could serve as a sign, but still not the sign of Pentecost. Because like you said, Acts 2 reveals EVERYONE present heard their own dialect of language they were born with being spoken by Christ's Apostles.
 

goodshepard55

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BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

Ever since the days of Joel, God's people have looked for the pouring out of God's Spirit (Joel 2:28-32). The Gospels and Acts speak of a baptism of the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:8; John 1:33; 7:37-39; Acts 1:5; see Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16. The Book of Acts shows the fulfillment of this promise (Acts 2:3-4,16-21; compare 10:44 with 11:16). But what does it mean to be "baptized with the Holy Spirit"?

Being baptized in the Holy Spirit means being immersed (baptized) in the presence and being of God. One immersed in the presence of God is made aware of his or her sinfulness and desires cleansing and purification (John 16:8; )The result of this cleansing is life in the true sense of the word.

One baptized with the Holy Spirit is also empowered to do works of ministry (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8). The ministry for which empowerment comes included witnessing (Acts 1:8; see John 15:26-27) and working miracles (John 14:12; Acts 3:4-10; 5:12). As part of the empowerment for ministry, believers are given the necessary spiritual gifts (Rom. 12:4-8; 1 Cor. 12:1-14:40; Eph. 4:1-16; 1 Tim. 4:16; 1 Pet. 4:10-11) and knowledge and guidance (John 14:26; 16:13).


BAPTISM OF FIRE

The phrase, "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire," occurs twice in the New Testament (Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16). To be baptized with fire is certainly not to be taken literally (as some in the history of the church have taken it).

Fire is one of the physical manifestations of God's presence. This is illustrated several times in the Bible: the making of the covenant with Abraham (Gen. 15:17), the appearance in the burning bush (Ex. 3:2), God leading the Israelites by a pillar of fire by night (Ex. 13:21-22; 14:24; Num. 9:15-16; 14:14; etc.), His appearance on Mount Sinai (Ex. 19:18; 24:17; Deut. 4:11-36; 5:4-26; etc.), and others (1 Kings 18:24,38; 1 Chron. 21:26; 2 Chron. 7:1,3).

Fire was used symbolically in Israel's worship to represent God's constant presence with Israel (Lev. 6:12-13). God's presence as fire represented both judgment and purification (the words purify and purge come from the Greek word for fire). To be in God's presence is to be in the presence of absolute holiness where no sin or unrighteousness can stand. To be in the presence of God is to have the overwhelming sense of one's uncleanness and the overwhelming desire to be clean (see Isa. 6:1-6). God is able to judge and destroy the sin and purify the repentant sinner.

The Holy Spirit is the gift Jesus gave His disciples (John 20:22) and is the presence of God at work in the life of the believer and in the world. Because the Holy Spirit is God's presence in the life of the believer and in the world, the believer and "the world" are made aware of sin and God's judgment on sin and of the necessity of being righteous in God's presence (John 16:8). The presence of God's Spirit brings the overwhelming sense of one's uncleanness and the overwhelming desire to be clean.

The statement "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire," means that Jesus had and has the ability to immerse (baptize) people in the presence of God so that they are aware of their sin and the need they have to be cleansed of that sin. To be baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire is to be convicted concerning sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8).

To be baptized with the Holy Spirit has a wider application than this; but when the Holy Spirit is coupled with fire (as in the phrase in Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16).


Salvation

For convenience, salvation can be viewed from the two perspectives of Christ's saving work and the believer's experience of salvation.

Christ's saving work involves already completed, on-going, and future saving activity. Jesus' earthly ministry made salvation a present reality for His generation. Jesus' healing ministry effected salvation from disease (Mark 5:34; 10:52; Luke 17:19). Jesus offered God's forgiveness to hurting people (Mark 2:5; Luke 7:50). He assured a repentant Zacchaeus that "Today salvation has come to this house" (Luke 19:9). Through such encounters Jesus fulfilled the goal of His ministry: "to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10).

The apex of Christ's completed work is His sacrificial death: Christ came to "give his life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45); Christ "entered once for all into the Holy Place, ... with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12 NRSV); "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them" (2 Cor. 5:19 NRSV). Here ransom, redemption, and reconciliation are synonyms for salvation. With reference to Christ's atoning work, the believer can confess, "I was saved when Jesus died for me."

Christ's present saving work primarily concerns Christ's role as mediator (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25; 1 John 2:1). Christ's future saving work chiefly concerns Christ's coming again "to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him" (Heb. 9:28 REB) and salvation from the wrath of God's final judgment (Rom. 5:9-10).

Though Christ's sacrificial death is central, Christ's saving activity extends to the whole of His life, including His birth (Gal. 4:4-5), resurrection (Rom. 4:25; 1 Cor. 15:17), and ascension (Rom. 8:34).

The believer's experience also offers a perspective for viewing salvation. The experience again embraces the past, present, and future. God's initial work in the believer's life breaks down into various scenes: conviction of sin (John 16:8); repentance (turning) from sin to God (Luke 15:7,10; 2 Cor. 7:10); faith which involves commitment of one's whole life to Christ (John 3:16,36); confession of Christ as Lord (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:9-10). Scripture uses a wealth of images to describe this act: new birth (John 3:3; Titus 3:5); new creation (2 Cor. 5:17); adoption (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:4-5; Eph. 1:5); empowerment to be God's children (John 1:12); the status of "saints" (1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:1). This initial work in the believer's life is often termed justification. Justification, however, also embraces God's final judgment (Rom. 2:13; 3:20,30).

God's ongoing work in the believer's life concerns the process of maturing in Christ (Heb. 2:3; 1 Pet. 2:2; 2 Pet. 3:18), growing in Christ's service (1 Cor. 7:20-22), and experiencing victory over sin through the power of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 7-8). Here sin remains a reality in the believer's life (Rom. 7; 1 John 1:8-2:1). The believer is caught in between what God has begun and what God is yet to complete (Phil. 1:6; 2:12).

God's yet to be finished work in the lives of all believers is sometimes called glorification (Rom. 8:17; Heb. 2:10). Scripture, however, uses a wealth of terms for this future saving work: adoption (Rom. 8:23); redemption (Luke 21:28; Rom. 8:23; Eph. 4:30); salvation (Rom. 13:11; Heb. 1:14; 9:28; 1 Pet. 1:5; 2:2); and sanctification (1 Thess. 5:23). God's future work involves more than the individual; God's future work extends to the renewal of heaven and earth.

Quickverse for Windows

Hope this helps a little
 

John Zain

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Shep,

This is an interesting take on the subject.


However, in the verses in Acts where the baptism with the Holy Spirit
is mentioned (or intended to be recognized), repentance from sin
is quite conspiculously absent from the accompanying details.

14 Scripture passages directly LINK the following gifts and events with the Holy Spirit baptism:
the promise ... the gift ... upon ... laying on of hands ... filled with the Holy Spirit
... received the Holy Spirit ... speaking in tongues ... power ... boldness ... miracles.


I have a chart showing how these are obviously all LINKED together in the 14 Scriptures.