Hey Wayne, I think it's great that you are reading and exploring the scriptures (bible). Here's something to keep in mind and apply when you read the book of Revelation, while it does give an account of somethings that have happened and somethings that take place in the future, most importantly it is an unveiling of Jesus the Christ.
Just wanted to talk about Christian, bible, and stuff like that.
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Sorry Pegg, but I have to rebuke you on that because it is extra-biblical and contrary to what Jesus said. I will respect your choice to be a Jehovah's Witness, but I think it's only fair to make that clear to him before guiding him away from the bible.
Wayne, this is one of the reasons it's important to read the bible for yourself. Show yourself approved by reading, studying, memorizing it for yourself so you aren't at the mercy of another persons understanding, including mine.
Jesus himself, addressed this in the bible..
Matthew 24
The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
..[sup]4[/sup] Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. [sup]5[/sup] For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. [sup]6[/sup] You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. [sup]7[/sup] Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. [sup]8[/sup] All these are the beginning of birth pains.
[sup]9[/sup] “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. [sup]10[/sup] At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, [sup]11[/sup] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [sup]12[/sup] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [sup]13[/sup] but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. [sup]14[/sup] And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
..[sup]22[/sup] “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. [sup]23[/sup] At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. [sup]24[/sup] For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [sup]25[/sup] See, I have told you ahead of time.
[sup]26[/sup] “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. [sup]27[/sup] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [sup]28[/sup] Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
Everyone will know on that day of because the sky will be lit up like lightning. It will be an unforgettable event.
[sup]..36[/sup] “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[sup][f][/sup] but only the Father.
No one except God the Father is capable of knowing the day Jesus will return before it happens, not even scholars who have an understanding of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic combined. Remember, this is God himself speaking and he doesn't make mistakes. If there was ever a "Suzy Q" or "John Doe" capable of knowing something that Jesus himself doesn't know, they probably would have been the one speaking what's in bold and not the ones being spoken of by Christ.
Wayne, this is one of the reasons it's important to read the bible for yourself. Show yourself approved by reading, studying, memorizing it for yourself so you aren't at the mercy of another persons understanding, including mine.
Jesus himself, addressed this in the bible..
Matthew 24
The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
..[sup]4[/sup] Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. [sup]5[/sup] For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. [sup]6[/sup] You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. [sup]7[/sup] Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. [sup]8[/sup] All these are the beginning of birth pains.
[sup]9[/sup] “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. [sup]10[/sup] At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, [sup]11[/sup] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [sup]12[/sup] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [sup]13[/sup] but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. [sup]14[/sup] And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
..[sup]22[/sup] “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. [sup]23[/sup] At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. [sup]24[/sup] For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [sup]25[/sup] See, I have told you ahead of time.
[sup]26[/sup] “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. [sup]27[/sup] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [sup]28[/sup] Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
Everyone will know on that day of because the sky will be lit up like lightning. It will be an unforgettable event.
[sup]..36[/sup] “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[sup][f][/sup] but only the Father.
No one except God the Father is capable of knowing the day Jesus will return before it happens, not even scholars who have an understanding of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic combined. Remember, this is God himself speaking and he doesn't make mistakes. If there was ever a "Suzy Q" or "John Doe" capable of knowing something that Jesus himself doesn't know, they probably would have been the one speaking what's in bold and not the ones being spoken of by Christ.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Message boards are rough for new converts. You never know what you're getting into. I have to say kudos to Redeemed86 for catching this problem before it got too far.
what part of it do you think is extra biblical?
Matthew 24:3 has 3 different events questioned by the disciples:
the first is 'When will these things be'... the apostles had earlier heard Christ foretell of he destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. So this part of the question refers to the destruction of Jerusalem
then they ask 'what will be the sign of your coming/parousia'
They ask for a sign because by this stage they have come to understand that Christ will not return visibly...so they ask for a sign of his return because if he was returning visibly, they wouldnt need a sign.
then they ask when the 'conclusion of the system' occurs
So the conclusion of the system is something different to Christs coming and the destruction of Jerusalem. The end of the system can only refer to Armageddon... Gods war against the nations.
But im interested in what you think is extra biblical in my post.
The Catholic Church has over 100 pages on the ten commandments and i think it must a foundation on Christianity as God does not make something like that just for the hell of it.
The only people who wanted to reject it were the ones who had a golden calf to worship and rejected Holy Moses and they tried to kill him also.
I would say the ten commandments still stand but Christ fulfilled it.
We are not under the law like in the OT but in Christ and the commandments are still with us as they did come from God and are not to be tossed away as just nothing.
Know wonder the jews reject Christianity, because of some of the rubbish some Christians go on about.
The commandments are "'the testimony" and in fact, they contain the terms of the covenant between God and us people of God..
The only people who wanted to reject it were the ones who had a golden calf to worship and rejected Holy Moses and they tried to kill him also.
I would say the ten commandments still stand but Christ fulfilled it.
We are not under the law like in the OT but in Christ and the commandments are still with us as they did come from God and are not to be tossed away as just nothing.
Know wonder the jews reject Christianity, because of some of the rubbish some Christians go on about.
The commandments are "'the testimony" and in fact, they contain the terms of the covenant between God and us people of God..
Where in the bible does it say he returned about 100 years ago? If you're referring to 1914, that date is not in any bible that I've read from.
Matthew 24:27 makes it clear that his return will not only be visible, but undeniable. Jesus is God in visible form, so if he is here already, where is he? Scripture?
Actually Wayne,
You are mostly correct.
I can explain with a story though.
In Israel during the time of Jesus' ministry the school system wasn't mandatory...but just about every self-respecting Jew sent their children there anyway.
There were three levels of education.
The first was Bethgashepher.
There you learned how to read and write and the history of your people. They used the first five books of the Bible....and the students memorized them. Their letters were also numbers and so you learned mathmatics by using them too.
If you did well enough you might go on to the second level called Bethmidrash. There you would memorize the rest of the Old testament and debate what the Torah (first five books of the bible) meant.
Then if your family was wealthy enough and you were one of the top students...then maybe you could ask a rabbi if you could follow him. If your family had enough status in the community and you were a good student and very well behaved the rabbi might say "yes" and then you followed him everywhere...and did everything precisely like he did. His mannerisms of speech, the way he ate his food, the way he walked and talked and even snored you would learn and do exacly like he did. They had an expression that went, "When you are a disciple you must follow so closely behind your rabbi that the dust from his sandals covers you"
IOW you were to become the rabbi you followed in every aspect of your life. Through you he would live on for a long long time.
Then one day he would turn around to you and tell you to go and make disciples...meaning that you were a rabbi in your own right.
And that was why Jesus said to Peter, "you didn't ask me, I asked you."
Or in other words..."I have faith in you Peter...even when you don't have faith in yourself"
And on Peter's tough days...that one sentence I am sure brought him a lot of comfort.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Seriously Wayne,
Redeemed and Nomad and FHII know their Bible, they will not lead you astray. Pegg is sincere, but her understanding of the Bible is based on a mistranslated copy - the New World translation, which is translated by the leaders of the Jehovahs witness church - a church movement that started in the 19th century. No Christian theologian outside the Jehovahs witness church believes their translation of the Bible or their teachings are crediable or orthodox. Most impotantly, jws do not believe Jesus is God.
No offense M.R., but you talk more about Catholicism than I do and you are not even a member.....have you read the Catholic Catechism? Because you sure sound like you believe yourself to be an authority on Catholic doctrine......
Redeemed and Nomad and FHII know their Bible, they will not lead you astray. Pegg is sincere, but her understanding of the Bible is based on a mistranslated copy - the New World translation, which is translated by the leaders of the Jehovahs witness church - a church movement that started in the 19th century. No Christian theologian outside the Jehovahs witness church believes their translation of the Bible or their teachings are crediable or orthodox. Most impotantly, jws do not believe Jesus is God.
No offense M.R., but you talk more about Catholicism than I do and you are not even a member.....have you read the Catholic Catechism? Because you sure sound like you believe yourself to be an authority on Catholic doctrine......
that year is a marked year in bible chronology as the 'end of the gentile times'
Luke 21:24 Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled The nations were already ruling because Gods rulership in Jerusalem had been overturned by Babylon in the 6th century... so in Jesus day, the appointed times of the nations were still in progress.
in the late 1800's a number of churches pointed to 1914 as the year that the appointed times would end...thats why so many thought that the end of the world was upon them. They got the timing from the book of Daniels prophecy about the image of Nebudchadnezzas dream about the great tree that represented Gods rulership in the earth...the tree was cut down for a certain length of time and then the tree would once again sprout when God placed someone on his throne. see Daniel 4:23-24
well i think that is debatable because there are also many other scriptures which indicate that he would not return visibly, ie:
John 14:19 A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but YOU will behold me, because I live and YOU will live
Matthew 23:39 For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth..
John 14:2-3 because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be
in the verse in John 14, Jesus tells his diciples that he is going away to prepare a place for them so that they too may go to where Jesus is going...heaven. So Jesus was not coming back here to be with his apostles...they were going to go to him, and where did Jesus go? Was it not to heaven that Jesus ascended to sit at Gods right hand??? After being exulted, would it make sense to lower Jesus again to a position on earth???? How could Jesus be head of all the heavens if he is relegated to an earthly position??
i dont buy it. Jesus has been exulted because of the work he did on earth in the first century. Do you really think God is going to put him through all that again. ?
thats ok, you have to make the determination yourself. I did that and im convinced that the WT have it right but of course you need to examine what i say in light of scripture which is why i always provide references
It's all about Catholicism because there is no other than Catholic, dear aspen.
I have a whole library not only just the Catechism.
I find myself having to defend the RC on so many points because people are just so ignorant of the RC position that it's just an insult to being a Christian, as we should reject slandering rubbish.
My membership to be in Jesus Christ who truly gives one that.
Just go and look it up for your self in the Catechism page 496 on and try to prove me wrong aspen. as i get tired of so called catholic members pushing there own barrow.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Never am sure if I really understand your posts MR. I am a Catholic Christian and I follow the teachings of my church.
The teachings of your church ?
I look into doctrines of the catholic church and i find most RC do not follow it or know it.
I have seen RC listen to a priest who is out of line pushing modern day PC rubbish just to keep the wishy washy mob happy.
A lot of RC i come across are off with the pixies. living in their own bubble so removed from reality.
I could ask them are you prejudice and they will say no!
I could ask them are you racial and they say no!
I could say are you a siner and they say no!
And i would say to that they are an idiot !
all people are prejudice as are they are also racial and sinners as no one can deny it.
Prejudice comes from lack of understanding. and PC cant fix that. PC cant fix racism. and PC would not say you are a siner no way.
I would say i am not impressed with people from India because i have 50 years of experience with them and i am just being honest, i don't trust them at all in business and if someone thinks i am a racist, good on them my conscious is clear and you are free to deal with them, i don't deal with conniving con artist. and i don't say all of them are. but that the way i see it and it's not from lack of understanding it comes from first hand experience.
I look into doctrines of the catholic church and i find most RC do not follow it or know it.
I have seen RC listen to a priest who is out of line pushing modern day PC rubbish just to keep the wishy washy mob happy.
A lot of RC i come across are off with the pixies. living in their own bubble so removed from reality.
I could ask them are you prejudice and they will say no!
I could ask them are you racial and they say no!
I could say are you a siner and they say no!
And i would say to that they are an idiot !
all people are prejudice as are they are also racial and sinners as no one can deny it.
Prejudice comes from lack of understanding. and PC cant fix that. PC cant fix racism. and PC would not say you are a siner no way.
I would say i am not impressed with people from India because i have 50 years of experience with them and i am just being honest, i don't trust them at all in business and if someone thinks i am a racist, good on them my conscious is clear and you are free to deal with them, i don't deal with conniving con artist. and i don't say all of them are. but that the way i see it and it's not from lack of understanding it comes from first hand experience.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
So your point is that you have met a lot of uneducated Catholics And you do not like Indians, but is ok because everyone is prejudice or else they are liars.
Ok......how does this relate to my last post?
Thanks aspen.
But no you are on the wrong track bro.
I do not like them in business dealings because of their lack of ethics.
Am i right in saying you have said that PC is good and you look up to it as something you are fond of.
You see the PC god says don't be prejudice, now i see that as just a joke for fools as it does not educate one at all but just dictates and it bears no true fruit.
As with all PC points of views i see it as second rate trash designed just for dim wits.
I am not supporting prejudice at all. but what it is.
It relates to what you have said in the past bro and what i think you may believe. no offence.
Do you follow the RC doctrines or just listen to you mob a your church like so many do, just worshiping the PC idolatry God.
Have you looked up the page i pointed out to you bro in the catechism. or is that not your thing.
But no you are on the wrong track bro.
I do not like them in business dealings because of their lack of ethics.
Am i right in saying you have said that PC is good and you look up to it as something you are fond of.
You see the PC god says don't be prejudice, now i see that as just a joke for fools as it does not educate one at all but just dictates and it bears no true fruit.
As with all PC points of views i see it as second rate trash designed just for dim wits.
I am not supporting prejudice at all. but what it is.
It relates to what you have said in the past bro and what i think you may believe. no offence.
Do you follow the RC doctrines or just listen to you mob a your church like so many do, just worshiping the PC idolatry God.
Have you looked up the page i pointed out to you bro in the catechism. or is that not your thing.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
MR I teach Catechism....it is my thing. I chose to become a member of the Catholic Church as an adult - I am educated on Catholic doctrine.
PC language ie not supposed to change your mind - it is supposed to set a standard for public use of language in an age of diversity. In the past, it was okay to make sexual comments to women if you held a position higher than them at work, for example. It was also ok to make fun of gay or effeminate men in public. If you were white, you could 'put a minority in their place' in public or on the job without social or work related consequences. Thankfully, society is changing and embracing a kinder form of public decorum.
I do not see anything wrong with this because I do not belittle people or name call, anyway. For people who do, it could be a tough adjustment.
PC language ie not supposed to change your mind - it is supposed to set a standard for public use of language in an age of diversity. In the past, it was okay to make sexual comments to women if you held a position higher than them at work, for example. It was also ok to make fun of gay or effeminate men in public. If you were white, you could 'put a minority in their place' in public or on the job without social or work related consequences. Thankfully, society is changing and embracing a kinder form of public decorum.
I do not see anything wrong with this because I do not belittle people or name call, anyway. For people who do, it could be a tough adjustment.
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