22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

WPM · Sep 20, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
I Disagree, (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20 doesn't represent that of Jesus Christ as you believe and teach

It represents the (First Resurrection) that takes place on the last day as you have been shown, once again

Paul there are (2) resurrection on the last day, the righteous are (The First Resurrection) to eternal life, (The Second Resurrection) is the wicked, this is the resurrection of the (Second Death)

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I have presented the evidence. It speaks for itself. I agree with a second general resurrection at the end that involves two types of resurrection. We are just going to have to disagree on this.

Truth7t7 · Sep 20, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
I have presented the evidence. It speaks for itself. I agree with a second general resurrection at the end that involves two types of resurrection. We are just going to have to disagree on this.

Yes We Disagree

The scripture below gives the definition and timing of (The First Resurrection) and it takes place at the finish of the 1,000 years, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, clear, simple, easy to understand

The verse below has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago as you believe and teach, it pertains to the "Future" resurrection

Paul I will continue to post this biblical truth against your error, concerning the interpretation of (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

WPM · Sep 20, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Yes We Disagree

The scripture below gives the definition and timing of (The First Resurrection) and it takes place at the finish of the 1,000 years, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, clear, simple, easy to understand

The verse below has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, it pertains to the "Future" resurrection

Paul I will continue to post this biblical truth against your error, concerning the interpretation of (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I will present my response that corroborates my position.

John is describing the current reality of believers already partaking in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The first resurrection is shown elsewhere throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5). The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

The duplicity of this subject is that everywhere else the presence tense is used, Premillennialists have no difficulty in applying it to the present, when it does not interfere with their pet doctrine. Jesus parallels Revelation 20:6 in John 3:16, teaching: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish (or experience the second death), but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

We see victory over the second death in this age through the new birth. Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It wins us victory over eternal death. It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (or experience the second death); but is passed from death unto life.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54 & 58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath (present active indicative) eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

In John 8:51, Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death).”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (present active particle) in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death).”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Here is more proof that our escape from “the second death” is not future tense (as Premillennialists claim) but presence tense.

Truth7t7 · Sep 20, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
I will present my response that corroborates my position.

John is describing the current reality of believers already partaking in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The first resurrection is shown elsewhere throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5). The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

The duplicity of this subject is that everywhere else the presence tense is used, Premillennialists have no difficulty in applying it to the present, when it does not interfere with their pet doctrine. Jesus parallels Revelation 20:6 in John 3:16, teaching: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish (or experience the second death), but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

We see victory over the second death in this age through the new birth. Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It wins us victory over eternal death. It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (or experience the second death); but is passed from death unto life.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54 & 58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath (present active indicative) eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

In John 8:51, Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death).”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (present active particle) in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death).”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Here is more proof that our escape from “the second death” is not future tense (as Premillennialists claim) but presence tense.

The scripture below gives the definition and timing of (The First Resurrection) and it takes place at the finish of the 1,000 years, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, clear, simple, easy to understand

The verse below has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago as you believe and teach, it pertains to the "Future" resurrection

Paul I will continue to post this biblical truth against your error, concerning the interpretation of (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

WPM · Sep 20, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
The scripture below gives the definition and timing of (The First Resurrection) and it takes place at the finish of the 1,000 years, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, clear, simple, easy to understand

The verse below has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago as you believe and teach, it pertains to the "Future" resurrection

Paul I will continue to post this biblical truth against your error, concerning the interpretation of (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The dead in Christ live and reign with Christ since His defeat of sin and death because they share in the first resurrection. This is the first resurrection – to share in union and communion with Jesus Christ, so that the power of the second death has no hold of you. And if that's true, then what John obviously has in mind as when he reflects on what he has seen in this great vision is that first resurrection will be followed by a second resurrection – the resurrection of the body. And the resurrection of the body interestingly will deal with the first death. The first resurrection deals with the second death. The second resurrection deals with the first death. And in this way, this vision of Revelation harmonizes in a magisterial fashion with the words of Jesus in John 5;24 onwards: he who believes in Christ will not be condemned, he has crossed over already from death to life, I tell you the truth. A time is coming, and has now come, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. That's the first resurrection. And here's the second resurrection (verse 28): Do not be amazed at that this for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out. those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. And it is this then that plays out into the glorious description of the end of all things that follows in chapters 21 and 22.

CadyandZoe · Sep 20, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
Premillennialist are constantly having to add onto Scripture by forcing it into passage after passage in the inspired text where it doesn't exist. That is why your doctrine so easily crumbles. That is it is so easily refuted. It enjoys zero corroboration.

The purpose of this thread is to respond to your objections to Premillennial doctrine. Which we have done. It is NOT the purpose of this thread to give a detailed presentation of Premillennialism.

CadyandZoe · Sep 20, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Ezekiel prophesied to Israel in the 70 year Babylonian captivity, and you want a person to believe Chapter 36 is future "Please"!

Just like dispensationalism's claim that Ezekiel chapters 40-46 is speaking of a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, just more "Malarkey"!

Yes, Ezekiel 36 is future.

WPM · Sep 20, 2022

CadyandZoe said:
The purpose of this thread is to respond to your objections to Premillennial doctrine. Which we have done. It is NOT the purpose of this thread to give a detailed presentation of Premillennialism.

The responsibility upon you is to show us how you're the Op is wrong. You prove the opposite. You've actually reinforced the whole thesis of the Op.

Truth7t7 · Sep 20, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
The dead in Christ live and reign with Christ since His defeat of sin and death because they share in the first resurrection. This is the first resurrection – to share in union and communion with Jesus Christ, so that the power of the second death has no hold of you. And if that's true, then what John obviously has in mind as when he reflects on what he has seen in this great vision is that first resurrection will be followed by a second resurrection – the resurrection of the body. And the resurrection of the body interestingly will deal with the first death. The first resurrection deals with the second death. The second resurrection deals with the first death. And in this way, this vision of Revelation harmonizes in a magisterial fashion with the words of Jesus in John 5;24 onwards: he who believes in Christ will not be condemned, he has crossed over already from death to life, I tell you the truth. A time is coming, and has now come, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. That's the first resurrection. And here's the second resurrection (verse 28): Do not be amazed at that this for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out. those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. And it is this then that plays out into the glorious description of the end of all things that follows in chapters 21 and 22.

"The Thousand Years Were Finished"

The (First Resurrection) seen below is "Future" that takes place at (The End) of the thousand years, at the "Future" second coming of Jesus Christ

The scripture below gives the definition and timing of (The First Resurrection) and it takes place at the finish of the 1,000 years, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, clear, simple, easy to understand

The verse below has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago as you believe and teach, it pertains to the "Future" resurrection

Paul I will continue to post this biblical truth against your error, concerning the interpretation of (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Paul there are (2) resurrection on the last day, the righteous are (The First Resurrection) to eternal life, (The Second Resurrection) is the wicked, this is the resurrection of the (Second Death)

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Truth7t7 · Sep 20, 2022

CadyandZoe said:
Yes, Ezekiel 36 is future.

Ezekiel 36 is fulfilled, the Edomites inhabited Israel during the 70 year Babylonian captivity, Ezekiel prophesied the return after the captivity, and the destruction of Idumea

Ezekiel 36:5KJV
5 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

Biblestudy.org
Idumea
Dictionary of Bible Names
Ask a Question! - Newsletter
Idumea (Idumaea, Idumaean)
Bible Meaning: Red or Edom (Old Testament)
Name of region (New Testament)
Strong's Concordance #H123, #G2401
Idumea is the name given to the land controlled by the descendants of Esau, Jacob's brother, known as the Edomites (Genesis 25:30, 36:8). They, throughout their history, would have a troubled relationship with Israel.

The Edomites who would come to populate Idumea first lived in an area southeast, south and southwest of the Dead Sea with their capital being Bozrah. Sometime after Jerusalem's destruction in 586 B.C., however, the land they occupied was destroyed in fulfillment of prophecy (Malachi 1:1 - 4).

Randy Kluth · Sep 20, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
Congratulations once again inside stepping all the New Testament scriptures that forbid your theories. You then resort to forcing a meaning upon the Old Testament Scripture that suits your claims. You do not seem to realize that God redeems individuals, not ethnic groups. Salvation has always been by grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone.

This is a major stumbling block in our disagreement. You think God only deals with individuals and not with nations. That is hardly true, in view of the fact God began with Israel, a nation.

Randy Kluth · Sep 20, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
You do not seem to be able to differentiate between the old covenant and the Old Testament written Scriptures.

On the contrary, I was raised in Reformation theology. As I said, this has nothing to do with God keeping His promises to Israel and to the nations that embrace Christianity.

Randy Kluth · Sep 20, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
The old covenant is gone forever. We are now in the new covenant period. The promises, apparatus and ceremonial system of the old arrangement is completely fulfilled in Christ.

Nope. The promises of God are indeed fulfilled by what Christ did, legally, at the cross. But those promises involve a physical nation, a multitude of physical nations, and a multitude of ethnicities. Nations, peoples, tongues, etc. It's all in the Abrahamic Covenant, and it's all in the book of Revelation. You're 100% wrong!

Truth7t7 · Sep 20, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
This is a major stumbling block in our disagreement. You think God only deals with individuals and not with nations. That is hardly true, in view of the fact God began with Israel, a nation.

I Agree with Paul, no such thing as your Zionist "National Plan For Israel" it's Randy's dream and desire not found in scripture, a fairy tale

WPM · Sep 20, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
This is a major stumbling block in our disagreement. You think God only deals with individuals and not with nations. That is hardly true, in view of the fact God began with Israel, a nation.

Racial status never saved any man - OT or NT. It is stupid and unbiblical to think otherwise. You cannot even move yourself to agree with me that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

WPM · Sep 20, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Nope. The promises of God are indeed fulfilled by what Christ did, legally, at the cross. But those promises involve a physical nation, a multitude of physical nations, and a multitude of ethnicities. Nations, peoples, tongues, etc. It's all in the Abrahamic Covenant, and it's all in the book of Revelation. You're 100% wrong!

Your posts are notably marked by a severe lack of Scripture. That is because you just like talking. You think if you say something then that makes it a fact. Well, the opposite is the truth.

Jesus never taught anything about land promises to national Israel; Paul never mentioned any. None of the New Testament writers did so. While the land was obviously significant during the Old Testament era, it is entirely insignificant in the New Testament. The New Testament reverses the narrow and provincial focus of the Old Testament and broadens it out with a new concern for all nations. The sole focus of the New Testament is Christ and the expanse of the Gospel from the little land of Israel to the whole world.

Please furnish us with one single New Testament Scripture that outlines a land promise to ethnic Israel today?

CadyandZoe · Sep 20, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
The responsibility upon you is to show us how you're the Op is wrong. You prove the opposite. You've actually reinforced the whole thesis of the Op.

I already did.

WPM · Sep 20, 2022

CadyandZoe said:
I already did.

You have proved nothing yet apart from the fact you have no rebuttal. That strengthened the validity of the Op.

CadyandZoe · Sep 20, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Ezekiel 36 is fulfilled, the Edomites inhabited Israel during the 70 year Babylonian captivity, Ezekiel prophesied the return after the captivity, and the destruction of Idumea

Ezekiel 36:5KJV
5 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

Biblestudy.org
Idumea
Dictionary of Bible Names
Ask a Question! - Newsletter
Idumea (Idumaea, Idumaean)
Bible Meaning: Red or Edom (Old Testament)
Name of region (New Testament)
Strong's Concordance #H123, #G2401
Idumea is the name given to the land controlled by the descendants of Esau, Jacob's brother, known as the Edomites (Genesis 25:30, 36:8). They, throughout their history, would have a troubled relationship with Israel.

The Edomites who would come to populate Idumea first lived in an area southeast, south and southwest of the Dead Sea with their capital being Bozrah. Sometime after Jerusalem's destruction in 586 B.C., however, the land they occupied was destroyed in fulfillment of prophecy (Malachi 1:1 - 4).

All one needs to do is ask whether God did what he predicted he would. He didn't

CadyandZoe · Sep 20, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
You have proved nothing yet apart from the fact you have no rebuttal. That strengthened the validity of the Op.

Now you are fantasizing. I think you have a short memory.
Listen, you are not prepared to hear anything that questions what you believe. I know this. You have been at this a long time. I know this also.

22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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