22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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WPM

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Now you are fantasizing. I think you have a short memory.
Listen, you are not prepared to hear anything that questions what you believe. I know this. You have been at this a long time. I know this also.

You are talking about yourself. Look in the mirror.
 

Keraz

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Where does it say the DOTL is anything other than a climactic day that no wicked survives and which ushers in the NHNE?

Isaiah 24:18b-23 The windows of the sky above are opened and earth’s foundations shake, it is convulsed and reels wildly. The earth lurches like a drunkard because the sins of its inhabitants weigh heavily upon it.
On that Day the Lord will punish in heaven the host of heaven and on earth, the rulers of the earth. They are put in a prison, punished over many years.
The moon will grow pale and the sun will hide its face in shame, for the Lord reigns on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. He is revealed in His glory to the elders of His people.

Jesus is not revealed to all the world, as yet, so this must be before the Return.

This passage describes the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. On that Day – the rulers and the sinners on earth will be punished. The sun and moon are darkened because of fires and volcanic eruptions caused by a CME sunstrike, that will affect the whole world. But note that in Isaiah 30:26, it is the Day that He saves His people, now we see that He reveals His glory to the leaders of Righteous Israel, who gather into the Land soon after this judgement.


Isaiah 25:1-5 Lord, you are my God, I shall praise Your Name, for You have done great things, long planned and sure. You have turned cities into heaps of ruin and made destruction over the land. For this many a cruel nation now treat You with awe. You have subdued the ruthless enemy, their war cries die away.
Truly You have been a refuge for the poor and needy in their distress,
their shelter from the tempest and shade from the heat.

This next prophesied event: the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, will not destroy all of His enemies and sinners, but they will know that punishment has come upon them for their misdeeds. The poor and needy, is a metaphor for His people, Christian Israelites, until they are brought back and settled into Greater Israel. They are promised protection from the heat flash and storms of this CME that the Lord will use to punish His enemies.

Isaiah 25:9 On that Day, the people will say: See – this is our God, we have waited for Him and He will deliver us. This is the God for whom we have waited, let us rejoice and exult in His deliverance.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice with Him, you heavens, all bow down before Y’hovah. For He will avenge the blood of His people and take vengeance on is enemies. He will punish those who hate Him and cleanse His peoples Land.
Ref: REB verses abridged.
 

Keraz

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While it may be understandable that Christians throughout the centuries gave up faith in there being a nation of Israel any longer, there is no such excuse today. Israel exists again.
But the Jewish State of Israel in no way fulfils the desire of God for a nation of faithful peoples in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35, Psalms 37:29
The visible Israel, is a fake, a Satanic entity, and is clearly prophesied to be removed. Jeremiah 12:14
The hidden Israel, are every true faithful Christiam person, from every tribe, race, nation and language. Soon to be gathered into all of the holy Land
 

WPM

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Isaiah 24:18b-23 The windows of the sky above are opened and earth’s foundations shake, it is convulsed and reels wildly. The earth lurches like a drunkard because the sins of its inhabitants weigh heavily upon it.
On that Day the Lord will punish in heaven the host of heaven and on earth, the rulers of the earth. They are put in a prison, punished over many years.
The moon will grow pale and the sun will hide its face in shame, for the Lord reigns on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. He is revealed in His glory to the elders of His people.

Jesus is not revealed to all the world, as yet, so this must be before the Return.

This passage describes the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. On that Day – the rulers and the sinners on earth will be punished. The sun and moon are darkened because of fires and volcanic eruptions caused by a CME sunstrike, that will affect the whole world. But note that in Isaiah 30:26, it is the Day that He saves His people, now we see that He reveals His glory to the leaders of Righteous Israel, who gather into the Land soon after this judgement.


Isaiah 25:1-5 Lord, you are my God, I shall praise Your Name, for You have done great things, long planned and sure. You have turned cities into heaps of ruin and made destruction over the land. For this many a cruel nation now treat You with awe. You have subdued the ruthless enemy, their war cries die away.
Truly You have been a refuge for the poor and needy in their distress,
their shelter from the tempest and shade from the heat.

This next prophesied event: the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, will not destroy all of His enemies and sinners, but they will know that punishment has come upon them for their misdeeds. The poor and needy, is a metaphor for His people, Christian Israelites, until they are brought back and settled into Greater Israel. They are promised protection from the heat flash and storms of this CME that the Lord will use to punish His enemies.

Isaiah 25:9 On that Day, the people will say: See – this is our God, we have waited for Him and He will deliver us. This is the God for whom we have waited, let us rejoice and exult in His deliverance.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice with Him, you heavens, all bow down before Y’hovah. For He will avenge the blood of His people and take vengeance on is enemies. He will punish those who hate Him and cleanse His peoples Land.
Ref: REB verses abridged.

Isaiah 25:7-9 predicted (and identified) the first resurrection and the impact it would have on the lives of God’s people. It attributed this to Messiah and importantly identified it with the enlightenment of “all nations,” not just Israel (as it was before the cross). We learn: he will destroy [Heb. bâla‛] in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up [Heb. bâla‛] death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.”

This Old Testament passage takes us back to the First Advent when Christ through His life, death and resurrection defeated every enemy that was arrayed against us. The words interpreted “destroy” and “swallow” here are translated from the Hebrews word bâla‛ and literally mean to devour or swallow up. This text is primarily describing how the Messiah swallowed up or destroyed death by undergoing it Himself upon behalf of man. By taking our penalty upon Himself, He defeated sin. As a result, He defeating the grave. He destroyed death. Finally, He defeated Hades and eternal punishment.

Jesus swallowed up “the covering” or “the veil” that was smothering the nations in darkness. He armed His disciples with the glorious Gospel, whereupon they were able to bring light to a darkened world. This passage speaks of this great victory.

This passage predicts the Coming Messiah and what He would achieve. One of the great changes that would occur when He came was that the ignorance hanging over the Gentiles would be removed and they would be privileged, like Israel in the Old Testament, with seeing the light. Satan before the cross ruled the nations unhindered. The Gentiles sat in gross darkness. The removal of the obstructing “vail” facilitated the enlightenment of the Gentiles. The removal of the “vail” which blinded the Gentiles is identified here with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. This great event saw Christ “swallow up death in victory” which resulted in the grave been eternally defeated for God’s people and heaven being opened to the redeemed of all time. Consequently, entrance to heaven would mean Jesus would “wipe away tears from off all faces.” This in turn saw the spiritual binding of Satan.

The opposite to deception is enlightenment and truth. That is exactly what Jesus is. Therefore, the removal of the vail of darkness cloaking the nations meant enlightenment to the ignorant Gentiles. Their hopelessness had gone and they were now blessed with the wonderful Gospel opportunity.

Matthew Henry explains what this prophecy predicted: “Christ will himself, in his resurrection, triumph over death, will break its bands, its bars, asunder, and cast away all its cords. The grave seemed to swallow him up, but really he swallowed it up.”

What is more, this was no mere man; it was the God-man who the grave couldn’t hold. This great event proved the majesty and deity of Christ in all His overcoming power. That is why the result of this transaction was that men would recognise His divinity. The text confirms men would proclaim: Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.”

The New Testament repeatedly shows that Christ is the first resurrection. Matthew 28:6 confirms: for he is risen, as he said.” Scripture after Scripture tells us He is the first resurrection. Premils must ignore/ overlook this in order to make the general resurrection of believers the first resurrection. No sane Bible student would propose we the elect are going to precede Christ in resurrection. After all this is a fundamental, and essential, truth in being a believer. Yet a large body of eschatology students ascribe the first resurrection to the redeemed of God. This doesn't make biblical or logical sense. It is a glaring inconsistency in the Premil understanding of Revelation 20.

Christ won the victory over death and obtained its keys at his first coming. Death had swallowed man up for long enough, Jesus overcome it at the resurrection.
 

Randy Kluth

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Jesus never taught anything about land promises to national Israel...

He didn't have to. He embraced the entire Law and the Prophets. In fact, he gave the Law and the Promises, which did in fact include the land promise to Israel's descendants.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
 

Randy Kluth

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But the Jewish State of Israel in no way fulfils the desire of God for a nation of faithful peoples in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35, Psalms 37:29
The visible Israel, is a fake, a Satanic entity, and is clearly prophesied to be removed. Jeremiah 12:14
The hidden Israel, are every true faithful Christiam person, from every tribe, race, nation and language. Soon to be gathered into all of the holy Land

Nothing more I can say--we disagree.
 

Randy Kluth

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Racial status never saved any man - OT or NT. It is stupid and unbiblical to think otherwise. You cannot even move yourself to agree with me that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

I don't ever see you being agreeable, brother? That is, unless the person you're agreeable with first says things that you like and supports your doctrines.

But I do think we're saved by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone. All of our works, to be of any worth in eternity, has to be done *in Christ.* And salvation comes only by reliance upon Christ.

Race has nothing to do with earning Salvation. But it is very important to God in terms of promises that He has made.

God is concerned about your family and my family. He doesn't ignore that. Nor does He ignore the descendants of men of faith like Abraham, who obeyed God. God rewards those who serve Him.

And so, Abraham's descendants became a race, and that race was important to God in terms of His promise to bless Abraham's descendants.

Just being born a descendant of Abraham does not qualify one for heaven. But God will find those among the Hebrews that He qualifies, by His own grace, to be part of the nation He promised to Abraham.
 
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Randy Kluth

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:eek:
I was taking about Rev 20 and Jn 5
see post 2872

The first resurrection of Rev 20 cannot be physical as Jn 5 states the time for not coming into judgment was already a fact without the necessity for a physical resurrection.
Do you understand what I am saying now?
So, in order for John not to contradict himself the first resurrection of Rev 20 is in accord with his teaching in Jn 5:cool:

Nope. I don't have a clue what you're talking about? The 1st resurrection of Rev 20 has to be physical because I've never heard of a non-physical resurrection. That would be an oxymoron.

I agree that people have already come under judgment without necessitating a physical resurrection. Many people have died from a divine judgment against them. This doesn't require that there be a physical resurrection, whatever that means?
 

covenantee

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I don't ever see you being agreeable, brother? That is, unless the person you're agreeable with first says things that you like and supports your doctrines.

But I do think we're saved by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone. All of our works, to be of any worth in eternity, has to be done *in Christ.* And salvation comes only by reliance upon Christ.

Race has nothing to do with earning Salvation. But it is very important to God in terms of promises that He has made.

God is concerned about your family and my family. He doesn't ignore that. Nor does He ignore the descendants of men of faith like Abraham, who obeyed God. God rewards those who serve Him.

And so, Abraham's descendants became a race, and that race was important to God in terms of His promise to bless Abraham's descendants.

Just being born a descendant of Abraham does not qualify one for heaven. But God will find those among the Hebrews that He qualifies, by His own grace, to be part of the nation He promised to Abraham.

The entire human race possesses the genome of Abraham's race, demonstrated mathematically and corroborated empirically.

Therefore, if Abraham's race is the criterion to receive Abraham's promises, then the entire human race will receive Abraham's promises.

And faith and obedience are irrelevant.
 

WPM

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I don't ever see you being agreeable, brother? That is, unless the person you're agreeable with first says things that you like and supports your doctrines.

But I do think we're saved by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone. All of our works, to be of any worth in eternity, has to be done *in Christ.* And salvation comes only by reliance upon Christ.

Race has nothing to do with earning Salvation. But it is very important to God in terms of promises that He has made.

God is concerned about your family and my family. He doesn't ignore that. Nor does He ignore the descendants of men of faith like Abraham, who obeyed God. God rewards those who serve Him.

And so, Abraham's descendants became a race, and that race was important to God in terms of His promise to bless Abraham's descendants.

Just being born a descendant of Abraham does not qualify one for heaven. But God will find those among the Hebrews that He qualifies, by His own grace, to be part of the nation He promised to Abraham.

Ok. So that sounds more promising and orthodox. You really need to be careful what you write. This post says the opposite to what you were previously suggesting. You formerly promoted a racial gospel, and deemed the unregenerate children of God, and now after several posts, you now take it back. I appreciate the clarity.
 

jeffweeder

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I agree that people have already come under judgment without necessitating a physical resurrection. Many people have died from a divine judgment against them. This doesn't require that there be a physical resurrection, whatever that means?


Thats the opposite to what I am saying.

Jesus in Jn 5 is promising those who believe in him that they will not come into judgment. The time NOW IS FOR THIS.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

So why would John contradict that promise and say we must rise physically in order not to come into judgment in Rev 20?
Answer is he wouldn't say that, so premills are interpreting the first resurrection incorrectly.

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years

I hope that is more clear. :pray:
 

WPM

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He didn't have to. He embraced the entire Law and the Prophets. In fact, he gave the Law and the Promises, which did in fact include the land promise to Israel's descendants.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

What you are forcing into that text is beyond the wording of the text. I think you know that. I will take it that you are admitting by your avoidance that you have nothing. That was my point. We all know that under the new covenant, Christ is the promised land. He is our inheritance. He is our rest.

Hebrews 4:1-11 tells us, “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

The place of rest is “a promise” (Hebrews 4:1) and a provision of God for the people of God. That rest is not an abstract thing – it is Christ. The writer of Hebrews presents the Israelites failure to literally enter into their rest (the Promised Land), because of their disobedience and lack of faith, as a warning to New Testament professing believers against not entering their rest in Christ through faith. That land can only be entered by faith or “with faith” (Hebrews 4:2), thus proving we are looking at the great salvation that Christ offers. When a man enters into that place of rest (salvation in Christ) he ceases “from his own works” (Hebrews 4:10). One can never gain favor with God through “good works” – this is a repeated truth throughout Scripture.

The writer to the Hebrews here relates entering into rest under the New Covenant as entering into Christ in salvation. This is the inheritance for every saint of God (Jew or Gentile) in our day. He is everything. It is a spiritual condition that brings peace to the soul, not a troubled geographical location in the Middle East. It is simply described in this reading as “his rest” – Christ’s rest. Moreover, that rest comes through simple faith in the Saviour.
 
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Keraz

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This passage predicts the Coming Messiah and what He would achieve
Isaiah 25, as I present in #2942 does not describe the glorious Return of Jesus. You have a weird idea of how Jesus will Return.
Plainly Isaiah is prophesying the great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. An event years before the Return.
Jesus Returns to rule the world, not to destroy it!
The writer to the Hebrews here relates entering into rest under the New Covenant as entering into Christ in salvation. This is the inheritance for every saint of God (Jew or Gentile) in our day. He is everything. It is a spiritual condition that brings peace to the soul, not a troubled geographical location in the Middle East. It is simply described in this reading as “his rest” – Christ’s rest. Moreover, that rest comes through simple faith in the Saviour.
You seem to have missed the many Prophesies which say how the Lord's faithful Christain peoples will enjoy a time of peace and prosperity in the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-12, Romans 9:24-26, +
 

Randy Kluth

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The entire human race possesses the genome of Abraham's race, demonstrated mathematically and corroborated empirically.

Therefore, if Abraham's race is the criterion to receive Abraham's promises, then the entire human race will receive Abraham's promises.

And faith and obedience are irrelevant.

Yes, genes are pretty much scattered throughout the various races and nations. But there is a design to it. Those who share the faith of Abraham among his descendants form into a society of faith and a nation, to carry on that faith. Ultimately, the sin that is prevalent among us all takes its toll, and the society and the nation breaks down. However, God by His grace is always able to restore the nation by bringing it under judgment and by utilizing a remnant of faithful followers among them to rebuild around.

So God is able to maintain the design of the gene pool in the form of a society and a nationality, to honor Abraham and his faithful fatherhood. It isn't the carrying of the Abraham gene that saves people, but God finds it necessary to rebuild the society and the nation that He promised to Abraham, to preserve His gene pool as a reward for his faith.

God can do the same for you and for your family if you sustain your faith under hardship and preserve the testimony of faith among your children. God may very well honor you by producing families in your memory, without letting them in effect "scatter to the wind." It really depends on what God wishes to do. But He does honor His word and reward those who are faithful in some way.
 

Randy Kluth

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Thats the opposite to what I am saying.

Jesus in Jn 5 is promising those who believe in him that they will not come into judgment. The time NOW IS FOR THIS.

Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Please allow me to break this down as we move along? Jesus is saying that the spiritually-dead, ie those condemned by their wickedness to death, will soon hear Jesus' testimony of grace and will thereby obtain eternal life. That happened when Jesus rose from the dead and began to speak the Gospel of Grace through his apostles and ministers.

So why would John contradict that promise and say we must rise physically in order not to come into judgment in Rev 20?
Answer is he wouldn't say that, so premills are interpreting the first resurrection incorrectly.

Clearly, Premils are *not* saying that! At least, Premils like me are not saying that! I would never say that one must experience glorification and immortalization in order to avoid judgment. The reverse is true. When one is saved by hearing the words of Jesus, and passes out of condemnation to death, he is then eligible for immortalization or resurrection from the dead. This is a *physical* rising from the dead!

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years

I hope that is more clear. :pray:

Yes, thank you--that's clear. I hope my response is equally clear, and explains why I couldn't understand you? You are saying something far removed from what Premils like me believe. Those who have been living ungodly, wicked lives are subject to the condemnation of death. Even if they repent, they are not qualified for Salvation.

But after Jesus rose from the dead, having forgiven men their sins, the wicked, ungodly people who repent in his name are able to obtain new life through him, and to thereby obtain the right to physical resurrection.

Jesus is talking about men coming to live in the resurrection life of Jesus spiritually. But in doing so they qualify for physical resurrection, which is the whole reason for giving us new spiritual life now.
 

Randy Kluth

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Ok. So that sounds more promising and orthodox. You really need to be careful what you write. This post says the opposite to what you were previously suggesting. You formerly promoted a racial gospel, and deemed the unregenerate children of God, and now after several posts, you now take it back. I appreciate the clarity.

Brother, I have been writing these things for years. I'm not overly concerned when people misrepresent what I'm saying because they are often only concerned to find fault. Thanks for looking a little deeper.
 

Randy Kluth

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What you are forcing into that text is beyond the wording of the text. I think you know that. I will take it that you are admitting by your avoidance that you have nothing. That was my point. We all know that under the new covenant, Christ is the promised land. He is our inheritance. He is our rest.

I really wish you'd stop speaking for me when you say "I know" something? Most often you're completely wrong.

I don't at all "know" that I'm forcing anything into a text I was just quoting! I don't at all agree with your failure to see continuity between the testaments, and your failure to recognize that God's promises in the OT were not abrogated! God is not a liar!

I certainly agree with you that Christ is our rest. But I do not agree with you that God does not grant rest in our lands physically. Christ can give us spiritual rest in the assurance of eternal life. But he can also give us rest in our societies and lands. He has promised to do that with Israel in the end. And I believe that literally will be fulfilled as a promise of God.
 

covenantee

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Yes, genes are pretty much scattered throughout the various races and nations. But there is a design to it. Those who share the faith of Abraham among his descendants form into a society of faith and a nation, to carry on that faith. Ultimately, the sin that is prevalent among us all takes its toll, and the society and the nation breaks down. However, God by His grace is always able to restore the nation by bringing it under judgment and by utilizing a remnant of faithful followers among them to rebuild around.

So God is able to maintain the design of the gene pool in the form of a society and a nationality, to honor Abraham and his faithful fatherhood. It isn't the carrying of the Abraham gene that saves people, but God finds it necessary to rebuild the society and the nation that He promised to Abraham, to preserve His gene pool as a reward for his faith.

God can do the same for you and for your family if you sustain your faith under hardship and preserve the testimony of faith among your children. God may very well honor you by producing families in your memory, without letting them in effect "scatter to the wind." It really depends on what God wishes to do. But He does honor His word and reward those who are faithful in some way.
God's design has in fact been to permit the ubiquity of Abraham's physical genes throughout the entire human race, in order to demonstrate that Abraham's physical genes are irrelevant in determining the recipients of His promises and blessings, and that it is only Abraham's spiritual genes--faith and obedience--which are the determinants of those recipients.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
 

Randy Kluth

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God's design has in fact been to permit the ubiquity of Abraham's physical genes throughout the entire human race, in order to demonstrate that Abraham's physical genes are irrelevant in determining the recipients of His promises and blessings, and that it is only Abraham's spiritual genes--faith and obedience--which are the determinants of those recipients.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

That's pretty random. I believe God create people to give birth to other like people so as to spread God's image everywhere. So, if you live a good life and have a family, you will project God's image into the future through your children. This is as God planned it. As the song goes, "teach your children well."
 

covenantee

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That's pretty random. I believe God create people to give birth to other like people so as to spread God's image everywhere. So, if you live a good life and have a family, you will project God's image into the future through your children. This is as God planned it. As the song goes, "teach your children well."
It is the antithesis of random. It is clear and unequivocal Scriptural definitions, conditions, and criteria which identify the True and Only Chosen People of God.

They are His People of Faith and Obedience.
 
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