"Why I'm Not Pre-Mil"

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WPM

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1. Not hyper-literally... just as it says. And one hour... in this day and age one hour is enough. The 10 kings might just agree with the beast long enough for a few actions to be taken then the Beast eliminates them or just takes over. They give their power to the Beast for 1 hour... maybe that is enough for what the Beast needs from the 10 kings.

This exposes how ridiculous your hermeneutics are. It forces you into all types of preposterous corners. For you to think that the 10 kings are just going to reign for 60 minutes is absurd. You know that! But that is exactly what your doctrine produces. It means a short period of time. A thousand years represents a long period of time.

2. I have posted the thought outline in previous posts... a) the vision is from earths perspective Rev 20:1 b) there are thrones Rev 20:4 c)Christ reigned Rev 20:4b

So, you admit that there is nothing in Revelation 20 that mentions Christ reigning on earth on an earthly throne. I agree. That is another Premil invention.

3. Paul's rapture passage... "we who remain" would be Christian survivors and the Matt 24:40 "one taken... one left" would indicate saved and unsaved existing at the same time. So there is some "remote corroboration" for you. But you won't accept it will you?

1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Matt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

No it is not. That is not saying what you're claiming. Those who "remain" in 1 Thessalonians 4 is talking about us who are alive when Jesus comes. We will then be changed in the moment and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That is not talking about the wicked. That is so wrong!

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

Strong’s tells us that the Greek word paralambano in this passage means “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation.” The word is interpreted elsewhere in the King James Version as receive, take unto or take with. It portrays the idea of: to take as a companion. The company that is received by Christ in this passage must therefore be those that intimately love and are waiting for His return. They are taken from the destruction that is poured at His appearing and immediately return to regenerated earth. In short, one is taken to safety the other left for destruction.

The word used here to describe the second party in view is the Greek word aphiemi, which carries the meaning to forsake, put away or lay aside. This can never refer to the righteous who God says, in Hebrews 13:5, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” This is the fate that awaits the wicked alone when Christ comes in all His glory. The words applied to either party in the original determine who and what He is speaking of.
 

Truth7t7

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Actually Satan was bound in a pit in the earth, not just on the earth. So the author is talking about earth, and people living on earth, because no place does the scene revert back to heaven, and reigning in heaven. The church reigns in heaven. Those on earth, reign on earth.

Did they have bodies in Abraham's bosom or sheol? Do they have bodies in the LOF? Are you saying no one has bodies on earth in Revelation 20? Were they only souls that marched across the breadth of the earth? So those reigning in the camp of the saints, on earth, were they only souls, and no bodies?

That would mean no literal fire, and no literal Second Coming, all fairy tells in your version of Revelation 20. Of course there is not a Second Coming in Revelation 20, because it happened in Revelation 19. But how is your fairy tell version of Revelation different, if you interpret Revelation 20 as a fairy tell yourself? We read the same words you do.
(The Souls) and (The Dead) in Revelation 20:4-6 are physically living upon this earth?

The very reason why I refrain from conversation with you, unreal, fictional
 

WPM

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Rev 22:14-15 is one.

As one commentator says,
For without are dogs,.... That is, without the holy city are such persons who are comparable to dogs for their filthiness, impudence, and voraciousness, as are persecutors, heretics, and apostates.

The New Jerusalem is intended. When it comes from heaven to earth, outside of it are the vile, wicked, those the Jews referred to as dogs. The New Jerusalem cannot come till Christ comes since it’s his bride.

So, are you saying that there are going to be wicked upon the earth for the whole of eternity in the new heavens and the earth?
 

WPM

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Way to long of a response.
But where did I say anything that you are attributing to me?
I think you are arguing with your own preconceived ideas.
Make a point (in less than 200 words) or ask a question... but please stop answering questions that no one has asked or debating a ghost argument.

Obviously you have no answer to this. Premil don't. It is impossible for the wicked to survive this.
 

David Boyer

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Obviously you have no answer to this. Premil don't. It is impossible for the wicked to survive this.

Answer for what??? You haven't asked a question.

Who does the fire of God consume in Rev 20:9? The righteous? So there gotta be some sinners to burn after the millennium.
 

Truth7t7

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So, are you saying that there are going to be wicked upon the earth for the whole of eternity in the new heavens and the earth?
It Appears The Lake of fire is in the New Heaven and Earth, outside the gates of New Jerusalem?

Isaiah 66:22-24KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Revelation 22:14-15KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
 

Truth7t7

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Answer for what??? You haven't asked a question.

Who does the fire of God consume in Rev 20:9? The righteous? So there gotta be some sinners to burn after the millennium.
No such thing as a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many believe and teach

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)
 

David Boyer

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No such thing as a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many believe and teach

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Rev20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."... Reigned would indicate a kingdom and a thousand years might just add up to a millennium.
 

Truth7t7

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Rev20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."... Reigned would indicate a kingdom and a thousand years might just add up to a millennium.
Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

David Boyer

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Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


I have done this thought experiment already before.
If you forgot my dissection of it then check other places it was posted.
In short your very text disproves your assertion.
 

WPM

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Who does the fire of God consume in Rev 20:9? The righteous? So there gotta be some sinners to burn after the millennium.

Exactly. We are in it now. Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season.

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. As the ESV states: “the mystery of lawlessness is …the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish.” It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes.
 

Truth7t7

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I have done this thought experiment already before.
If you forgot my dissection of it then check other places it was posted.
In short your very text disproves your assertion.
Fact is, there isn't a Kingdom or Mortals on this Earth seen in Revelation 20:1-6, it's 100% spiritual realm

Keep searching, your 1,000 year Zionist Kingdom on this Earth isn't found in scripture
 

David Boyer

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Exactly. We are in it now. Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season.

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. As the ESV states: “the mystery of lawlessness is …the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish.” It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes.

Baldardash.
You really have to ignore large sections of Revelation to make that model fit.
But then Jesus lied about it being 1000 years. Or was it John who lied, or an Angel?
Tell me who lied about the 1000 years... because we are at 2000 now and counting.
 

David Boyer

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Fact is, there isn't a Kingdom or Mortals on this Earth seen in Revelation 20:1-6, it's 100% spiritual realm

Keep searching, your 1,000 year Zionist Kingdom on this Earth isn't found in scripture

It is in Rev 20:1-6.
Show me where it says it is spiritual.
Chapter and Verse where the kingdom of Rev 20:1-6 is NOT OF THIS EARTH(or similar sentiment).
 

Timtofly

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Show us one verse in Revelation 20 that mentions Christ reigning on earth on an earthly throne?
See, this is an example of hypocrisy. Show me one verse that declares Jesus coming to earth in the same set of verses.

Jesus is already on earth, because the narrative never shows Jesus leaving earth.

The camp of the saints is still those given life who rule with Christ 1,000 years. Now certainly that could be more defined, but it is not. It is certainly not implying a recent second coming. And "your fire" destroys all of creation. This verse does not even imply that:

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Fire only consumes those who encompassed the camp of the saints. Give one good reason the camp of the saints and the saints are also consumed at the same time.

You are implying these resurrected souls are given life, rule in this camp of the saints, the beloved city, with Christ for 1,000 years and then consumed by fire? They literally die twice? Once by beheading, and then once by fire?

You ask what is in this chapter, and that is your assumption? Who are the them devoured by fire? The whole earth? With this logic, perhaps only the camp of the saints was devoured by fire, and not those marching across the earth. Since you don't accept Christ was also ruling with a rod of iron in the camp of the saints, that beloved city.

Amil have to bring in other Scripture to define the fire. Pre-mill have other Scripture that defines the iron rod rule of Christ, specifically in the previous chapter when Jesus as King literally comes to earth, and no fire is even mentioned there. But you can even add fire to Revelation 19, and claim to "get away with it". That is either being hypocritical or obtuse, your choice.

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldn't wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.
Of course it is literal. None of them were beheaded for refusing the mark and resurrected in the following verses either. All those killed had the mark, and remained dead until the 1,000 years were over. Certainly they were not resurrected in Revelation 19, which is a claim of Amil.
 
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WPM

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I have done this thought experiment already before.
If you forgot my dissection of it then check other places it was posted.
In short your very text disproves your assertion.

The Premillennialist MO is to ignore the Scripture passages presented that forbid their teaching and counter it with their own opinions. That sums up your doctrine. You cannot deal with the sacred text.
 
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Truth7t7

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The Premillennialist MO is to ignore the Scripture passages presented that forbid their teaching and counter it with their own opinions. That sums up your doctrine. You cannot deal with the sacred text.
I Agree 100%

The standard MO for Pre-Millennialist and Dispensationalist