22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

Randy Kluth · Sep 21, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
I didn't say it. Jesus said it. Paul the apostle said it. The New Testament writers said. Your conflict is with them not with Amillennialists. You cannot even address the scriptural passages that I present, because they expose your claims.

No matter how many times I address your claims and passages you claim I haven't done so. It's gotten to the point where your complaints are meaningless.

Jesus and Paul did *not* deny that Abraham's children have to be "Christian" to be his children! That's ludicrous because the beginning of that fulfillment started even before there was a "Christianity!"

Israel was required, under the Law, to cut off apostates, who then in effect became "not Israel" and "not Abraham's children." This did not convert the definition of Israel from "physical nation" to "allegorical nation."

Your arguments are absurd. And yet, they are time-honored opinions based on the reality that Israel for a great length of time abandoned their faith. Now that Israel is showing signs of restoration, we should not judge them as illegitimate just because many of them have not yet come to the faith. The promise is that there will be, not that they already are.

Heb 11.1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Paul Malcomson said:
You are unable to identify one single Christian nation today. Your definition of Christian and the rest of ours are completely different. God's Word only recognizes as one type of Christian – a born-again Christian. All the rest are imposters.

I've identified as "Christian nations" those nations who make Christianity their national religion. I identify Christians both nominally and spiritually. Yes, many Christians are purely "nominal Christians." But often they are at some point in their journey *towards* full Christian belief, as I was early in my Christian life. We should not judge people before the time.

Randy Kluth · Sep 21, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
National Israel has lost its favored status among the nations as God’s chosen people. She is no longer God’s ambassador in a heathen world. She is no longer God’s voice of righteousness to mankind. She is no longer the instrument that God uses to manifest His glory on planet earth. Through rejecting God’s Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, she moved from the blessing of God to the wrath of God. But out of natural Israel God brought a spiritual remnant who knew Him and had real intimacy with Him. He sent them out with a spiritual message of hope to the Gentile nations. These He considered as true Israel. They became His representatives and His mouthpiece to a fallen world. That favored position belongs exclusively to those within Judaism and the Gentile nations who embrace the Messiah Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

That is Replacement Theology which, as you know, I completely reject. Rom 9-11.

Randy Kluth · Sep 21, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
No you have not. YOu just say it is the first resurrection of Jesus but fail to answer what is the rest of the passage describing?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Stop being dishonest. I havve answered all or nearly all questions you have posed. But I still await your more than "Its just Jesus being spoken here" as to what is being described.

Sad to say, Paul and others here are not very noble when discussing differences. I've had great discussions with gentlemen like Marty who disagrees with me but always has a tone of respect and a brotherly attitude.

As for me, I try, at the start, with suggesting there are good arguments on both sides. But with Paul, and with others like him, "you have nothing." He'll say, "you duck this," or "you've avoided that." Or, "you're dishonest," or, "you haven't done your homework." Etc. etc. etc.

This is such a simple matter to deal with, namely the matter of the "1st resurrection in Rev 20." Of course, Paul and others like him aren't going to be respectful about it, though I wish they would. But let's just tell it like it is.

Rev 20 mentions a 1st resurrection in conjunction with all of the paraphernalia you just mentioned, thrones, the binding of Satan, a thousand years, etc. Nothing about this being *Jesus' resurrection.*

So one view claims that use of the term "1st resurrection" requires that it be a reference to the very 1st Christian resurrection, which was Jesus' resurrection, or perhaps even Lazarus' resurrection, since Jesus performed that miracle.

Those of us who believe the "1st resurrection" is at the 2nd Coming of Jesus disqualify Jesus' resurrection as the "1st resurrection" because it is not the 1st resurrection of the Church, but only the resurrection of Jesus. Two very different contexts.

People simply have to disagree agreeably, and let it go. Repeating arguments endlessly through copying and pasting is an exercise in futility, unless the goal is to attract new followers, which I suppose is legitimate. But let's not pretend this is a serious discussion between two people who have already made their arguments, right?

WPM · Sep 21, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
That is Replacement Theology which, as you know, I completely reject. Rom 9-11.

Not true. You are an out-and-out advocate of RT and religious apartheid.

RandyPNW said:
Yes, what Israel had has now been passed on to many European and other nations.

So the kingdom of priests given to Israel has been given to many nations.

Click to expand...

Many Christian nations have now entered into the promise God made to Israel that they would be a kingdom having a priesthood.

WPM · Sep 21, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
No matter how many times I address your claims and passages you claim I haven't done so. It's gotten to the point where your complaints are meaningless.

Jesus and Paul did *not* deny that Abraham's children have to be "Christian" to be his children! That's ludicrous because the beginning of that fulfillment started even before there was a "Christianity!"

Israel was required, under the Law, to cut off apostates, who then in effect became "not Israel" and "not Abraham's children." This did not convert the definition of Israel from "physical nation" to "allegorical nation."

Your arguments are absurd. And yet, they are time-honored opinions based on the reality that Israel for a great length of time abandoned their faith. Now that Israel is showing signs of restoration, we should not judge them as illegitimate just because many of them have not yet come to the faith. The promise is that there will be, not that they already are.

Heb 11.1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Again: your argument is based upon your opinions instead of the inspired text. This is folly and shows the danger of Premil. Your fight is with Scripture. Your whole paradigm has totally crumbled here. Your arguments are incoherent. It is not a wise thing to fight Christ, Paul the Apostle and the NT writer in their clear teaching. They forbid your error. You have no rebuttals now, just evasive speeches.

It is wiser to run with what Scripture says rather than what you have been indoctrinated with. See what the Bible teaches rather than what you have been taught. Hebrews 4:9-10: "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

If the non-Christian Jewish people were “the people of God” then they would be “in Christ” and be at “rest” in Him. But they are not. They reject Christ. They reject His atoning work on the cross for sin. They therefore reject our heavenly Father. They are children of the devil. They are of the synagogue of Satan.

Christ was preaching a sermon in John 8:32 saying, “ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

To which the religious Jews interjected, “We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?” (v 33).

Jesus replied, “I know that ye are Abraham's seed (obviously speaking naturally); but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (vv 37-38).

The Jews then boasted, “Abraham is our father” (v39).

Christ responds to this misguided boast of the religious Jews, saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (John 8:34-38).

These religious Jews had no revelation of their own innate sin. They were depending upon their own self-righteousness. Little did they know it, but man’s only deliverer from sin was standing in their midst. Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore stands completely guilty before a righteous God. In the first Adam (the first nature) all are sinners and therefore destined to lost eternity. Jews and Gentiles approach God on the same grounds being collectively blighted with the same disfigurement – sin. They consequently require the same cure (the only medicine for this affliction) – the blood of Jesus. All men are on a level playing field when it comes to birth. All are equally required to submit to the exact same requirements – faith in Christ and repentance towards God.

Whereupon Christ responded, “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

Here Christ hits them with the sobering truth. He identifies their true father as the devil. This would have been explosive to these religiously proud Jewish leaders. He advanced “If ye were Abraham's children” speaking in a spiritual sense, and “If God were your Father” also speaking spiritually, “ye would love me.” Here the evidence of being a true child of Abraham is shown to be ‘loving Christ’. This is Christ’s litmus test of a true child of Abraham and what it is to be part of God’s chosen people.

Let us see what the Saviour said on this important matter. Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Again, this couldn’t be clearer. Those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Jews who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham, Gentiles who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham. Jews who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham, Gentiles who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

The overwhelming amount of Jews for 2,000 years have rejected Christ, Christ will therefore reject them. Notwithstanding, there has always been a redeemed remnant that have accepted God's only provision for sin and uncleanness. Those that accepts Christ are accepted of the Father. Those that deny Him are denied by the Father.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

How can they be of God's if they reject God's only means of reconciliation between man and God? The unsaved Jew does not receive Christ; therefore the Father does not receive him. He is not God's, he is the devil's. God's favour and blessing is upon those who accept His Son. His judgment is upon those who reject Him.

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If the Jew loves Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!

WPM · Sep 21, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
I've identified as "Christian nations" those nations who make Christianity their national religion. I identify Christians both nominally and spiritually. Yes, many Christians are purely "nominal Christians." But often they are at some point in their journey *towards* full Christian belief, as I was early in my Christian life. We should not judge people before the time.

Can you define what the word "Christian" means in a biblical sense?

WPM · Sep 21, 2022

Ronald Nolette said:
No you have not. YOu just say it is the first resurrection of Jesus but fail to answer what is the rest of the passage describing?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Stop being dishonest. I havve answered all or nearly all questions you have posed. But I still await your more than "Its just Jesus being spoken here" as to what is being described.

Jesus was the first to defeat sin, death, the grave and Hades. He is the first resurrection. After His glorious resurrection, He testified in Revelation 1:18: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Christ secured the complete dominion over Satan, death, hell, sin and every enemy at the cross. He took these crucial keys of authority over death and hell through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. Christ not only defeated hell and death but acquired “the keys of hell and of death” (Revelation 1:18), triumphing over the prince of darkness. Christ became a curse for the penitent, therefore bearing his curse.

Keys in the New Testament represent divine authority. The keys (or authority) of the bottomless pit rests with Christ today and His delegated authority bestowed upon His angels and people.

Christ holds the keys of hell and of Hades today. That power has been taken from Satan. Christ defeated Satan who held the keys of death and of Hades. Amils believe that Satan and his power was seriously injured at the cross. Christ secured a decisive victory over Satan through his life, death and resurrection. Christ secured the complete dominion over Satan, death, hell, sin and every enemy at the cross. Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus.

Before the resurrection the redeemed dead were forced to stay in Hades awaiting the defeat of sin, death, Hades and Satan. The limitations that once held God's people from the presence of God now restrain Satan so that he cannot stop the enlightenment of the nations. Jesus opened heaven up to the elect (both living and dead) When he defeated sin, death, Satan and Hades. He consequently emptied Abraham's bosom and took the dead in Christ in heaven.

So, it was only after the first resurrection (when sin, death, Satan and hell were defeated) and the consequential binding of Satan that the dead in Christ could be released to enter the presence of the Lord in heaven. Christ emptied Hades and led captivity captive taking them to heaven to reign with Him until the physical resurrection at His coming. That is because the penalty for their sin has been paid in full. Justice has been met by the sinless life of Christ, His atoning death on our behalf and His victorious resurrection. The punishment is complete.

WPM · Sep 21, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
No matter how many times I address your claims and passages you claim I haven't done so. It's gotten to the point where your complaints are meaningless.

Jesus and Paul did *not* deny that Abraham's children have to be "Christian" to be his children! That's ludicrous because the beginning of that fulfillment started even before there was a "Christianity!"

Randy Kluth said:
Your argument that they are not "Abraham's promised children" because they are not yet Christians is bogus. You obviously do not believe in predestination. I do. I believe what God promised Abraham *before it was fulfilled* must come to pass!

I didn't say it. Jesus said it. Paul the apostle said it. The New Testament writers said. Your conflict is with them not with Amillennialists. You cannot even address the scriptural passages that I present, because they expose your claims.

The first time we encounter the whole tension between the natural children of Abraham and true spiritual children of Abraham in the New Testament comes in Matthew 3. There, John the Baptist is approached by the religious Pharisees and Sadducees, looking to be baptized. As usual, the religious Jews came flaunting their racial and religious credentials.

Matthew 3:7–11 records: “when he (John) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.”

John the Baptist came on the scene after Israel had been in gross apostasy for many hundreds of years. Apostate Israel had become smug in their illustrious heritage and had put their trust in their racial status rather than God. This created a superiority spirit. The prophet of God was not ignorant of the arrogant mindset and destructive influence of the Jewish leaders of his day. John came with a strong message of rebuke to these religious pretenders – instructing them to turn from their wicked ways and turn back to God. In doing so, he immediately and directly challenged their ethnic and pious pride, showing them that favor with God only came through an intimate personal relationship with Him.

In his rebuke, John identified who and what constituted a true descendent of Abraham. He declared: “begin not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham to our father.” Such was the demise of this formerly blessed people that he warned the religious leaders against claiming Abraham as their father – meaning, they were not automatically true sons of Abraham through natural birth. He explained that natural heritage means absolutely nothing to God. This would have strongly cut across these religious protagonists who wore their ethnic Abrahamic badge with particular pride and put their confidence in it for favor with God. This same affliction impairs them to this day.

Jesus similarly admonished these same religious imposters in Luke 13:3: “except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”

Repentance is the constant theme of Scripture and the heart-beat of Gospel preaching when dealing with the unsaved. The fact that God’s messengers in the New Testament were constantly urging the religious Jews to repent shows us their impoverished spiritual state. Basically: they knew God in their head, but, alas, not in their heart. That is why Jesus said of these religious hypocrites in Matthew 15:8: “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.”

They had religion, but no real relationship. They had a head-knowledge but no heart knowledge. They were all outward but no inward. They professed but did not possess.

Our Savior is also seen challenging the Jewish leaders of His day, in John 8:32, saying, “ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

To which they responded, “We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?” (v 33).

Jesus replied, “I know that ye are Abraham's seed (obviously speaking naturally); but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (vv 37-38).

The Jews then boasted, “Abraham is our father” (v39).

Christ responds to this misguided boast of these hypocrites, saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant [or slave] of sin. And the servant [or slave] abideth not in the house for ever: but the son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (John 8:34-38).

There is such a battle going on here between the natural and the spiritual. The unbelieving religious Jews are pushing their genetic pedigree here as proof of their connection to Abraham, whereas Christ is trying to show them a spiritual truth – showing them that Israel’s inheritance is not secured by native heritage but rather by spiritual means What Jesus was basically saying is: ‘you might be a physical descendent of Abraham and yet not qualify to be a son or a child of God. What then would your ethnic DNA matter?’ He is showing them that faith matters!

Christ responded to the ignorance of the Jewish leaders: “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

Our Savior hits these religious imposters clean between the eyes with marksman’s accuracy and sobering truth. Firstly, He informed them that they had no right to consider themselves as “Abraham's children.” He advanced: “If ye were Abraham's children” speaking in a spiritual sense, and “If God were your Father” also speaking spiritually, “ye would love me.” What He was telling them was: if you truly were Abraham’s children then your life and conduct would be like him and his. He was telling them that behavior reveals identity. He goes even further, He informs them that the evidence of them being true children of Abraham is demonstrated by them loving Him. This is the litmus test of who is a true child of Abraham and what it is to be part of God’s chosen people.

Secondly, He identifies their true father as Satan. This would have been explosive and offensive to these proud religiously Jewish leaders. Jesus demonstrated that favor with Him didn’t come through natural pedigree but rather spiritual pedigree. Those Jews who rejected God’s offer of salvation were not under blessing but under a curse. They were not in any way considered as God’s chosen people. They were children of the devil and they were heading to hell.

I've already proven what theocracies are and that God promised them to Abraham. He promised Abraham *nations of faith,* which are what theocracies are. Israel was the initial model of this, and it was in fact a theocracy. Christian nations, whose laws reflect the laws of Christ, are in fact theocracies. You may disagree because you have your own chosen definition of "theocracy," but this is how I'm defining it, and it is legitimate.

No, you have not. Quite the opposite! The only thing you have proved is the absurdity of your claims. You are unable to identify one single Christian nation today. Your definition of Christian and the rest of ours are completely different. God's Word only recognizes as one type of Christian – a born-again Christian. All the rest are imposters.

Keraz · Sep 21, 2022

Here is an interesting scripture about how ethnic Israel sinned and will be tested and refined by fire before Jesus Returns.
BUT: we must always keep in mind that The Jewish people are not all of the Israelite peoples. The Houses of Israel and Judah have not yet rejoined, as prophesied in Ezekiel 37.

Isaiah 1:2 & 16-21 Give ear, you heavens and earth - for it is the Lord who speaks; I reared children, but they have rebelled against Me.......Now, put away your evil deeds, learn to do good, pursue justice and protect the oppressed.
Come, let us argue this out, says the Lord. Though your sins are as scarlet, they may yet be white as snow. If you are willing to obey, you will have the best that the earth yields, but if you refuse and rebel, then the sword will devour you.

How the faithful people have played the harlot! Your glory has turned to ashes. Your rulers are rebels, associates of thieves, taking bribes and denying people’s rights.

Isaiah 1:24-31 This, therefore, is the Word of the Lord, the Mighty One of Israel: Now I will get relief from My foes and avenge Myself on My enemies. Once again I shall act against you to refine you of your impurities. Rebels and sinners alike will be broken and those who forsake the Lord will perish. Your idols will turn out to be false and worthless. You will be like a tree with falling leaves, like a waterless garden. The strongest person and their works will flare up and burn with no one to quench the fire.

I shall make your judges and councillors as they once were. Then you will be called the place of the Righteous, the Faithfull people. The Land of Israel will be redeemed with justice and her returning people by righteousness.
Reference: Revised English Bible, some verses abridged.

“though your sins be as scarlet” : People are indicted for their faithlessness. Jeremiah4:22, Jeremiah 3:10-11&25, Isaiah 59:12-14

“they may yet be as white as the snow”: There is the hope that although our sins are piled high, we can be cleansed – if we are willing to obey the Lord’s Commandments and Laws and have faith in Him, then He will reward us with great blessings. Psalms 40:1-5, Psalms 80:14-19, Isaiah 45:22-25, Romans 5:6-11, Titus 3:3-6

“ Once again I shall act – if you refuse and rebel, you will die” This refers to the Day of the Lord’s vengeance – the next prophesied event, when the Lord’s enemies are punished. Deuteronomy 32:41, Isaiah 66:15-16, Habakkuk 3:12, Malachi 4:1

All the world will be judged on that Day. Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 35:4, Jeremiah 6:9-15 The Lord’s people will be tested and refined, 1 Peter 4:12 & 17-18, and those who refuse to acknowledge the Lord will die. Ezekiel 20:38, Hosea 7:1, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, Romans 1:18-32

“ungodly people and their works will burn to ashes”, On the Day of the Lord’s wrath, fire from the sun will destroy His enemies – a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1&3, Psalms 50:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

“I will give you wise leaders”: The leaders of His people, in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5 – resettled in the Land, will be wise and just, as in ancient Israel. Daniel 12:10, Daniel 11:33, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Isaiah 32:15-20, Jeremiah 3:15, Jeremiah 30:21

Randy Kluth · Sep 21, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
Not true. You are an out-and-out advocate of RT and religious apartheid.

Distinguishing between a man and a woman is not chauvinism. Neither is distinguishing between Israel and other nations apartheid.

You're either really thick, or a very angry man!

I do agree with you that the New Covenant superseded the Old Covenant of Law. And Christian nations have entered into the hope of Israel without cancelling Israel's own unique national participation in that hope.

Randy Kluth · Sep 21, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
Can you define what the word "Christian" means in a biblical sense?

A Christian is one who has embraced Christ as his Lord. Many have done so without fully paying the price, and later they fall away, or become so compromised that they lose their experience. At any rate, knowing which Christians are "fully saved" is a matter of God's knowledge. Sometimes God lets us know, and sometimes not.

Randy Kluth · Sep 21, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
If the non-Christian Jewish people were “the people of God” then they would be “in Christ” and be at “rest” in Him. But they are not. They reject Christ. They reject His atoning work on the cross for sin. They therefore reject our heavenly Father. They are children of the devil. They are of the synagogue of Satan.

I wouldn't want to be in your place, judging prematurely the eternal souls of men! I'm done arguing with you on this point. I believe, without a doubt, that God is gathering Jews together to inherit the promises God made to Abraham. They may not be Christians yet. But they will be.

Spiritual Israelite · Sep 21, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
No, all you're doing is *saying* that you've proven you're not an RT without actually showing where your beliefs differ from those of RT. You apparently think RT believes something different from you. What do you think that is? And if you're wrong, and RT does *not* believe what you claim it does, then you've proven nothing.

I've already explained this MANY times and you're still asking me this? Unbelievable.

So quit saying you've proved something, and actually prove it! What is your proof? If you've provided that proof so many times, it should be very easy for you to reiterate?

What is the reason you can't remember what I've said all the other times I've explained this to you? Why should I think you will pay attention this time? I've said MANY times that I don't believe anyone gets replaced and I don't see the church/spiritual Israel as replacing the nation of Israel. I see the church/spiritual Israel as being distinct from national Israel.

Spiritual Israelite · Sep 21, 2022

jeffweeder said:
I was taking about Rev 20 and Jn 5
see post 2872

The first resurrection of Rev 20 cannot be physical as Jn 5 states the time for not coming into judgment was already a fact without the necessity for a physical resurrection.
Do you understand what I am saying now?
So, in order for John not to contradict himself the first resurrection of Rev 20 is in accord with his teaching in Jn 5

I have no problem getting what you were saying. Because of having part in Christ's resurrection by going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ, as Jesus talked about in John 5:24-25, the second death has no power over us. People should read a verse like Revelation 20:6 from that perspective and they should then see it is speaking of a current reality. It's true right now that the second death has no power over those who belong to Christ (whether physically dead or alive).

Spiritual Israelite · Sep 21, 2022

CadyandZoe said:
How does Romans 11:32 answer Paul's implied rhetorical question? It doesn't.

Which rhetorical question are you talking about? You keep referring to it without telling me what it is. I'm sorry, but you are just terrible at communicating.

Paul is answering an objection to his gospel based on a promise God made to Israel. Let's review that promise.

Ezekiel 36:26

Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Most people think of salvation in terms of God's response to our plea for mercy. But here in Ezekiel we see that prior to our plea for mercy, God must first prepare the heart. (Refer to the parable of the sower.) Here God promises to give Israel a new heart. He promises to pour out his spirit on them. Not only will this cause them to walk in his statutes and observe his ordinances, it will cause them to repent and mourn because of the past. They will remember their evil ways and the deeds that were not good and they will loathe themselves in their own sight.

It is not automatic for someone to repent. God doesn't force or coerce anyone to repent. But, again, I don't wish to turn this into a free will vs. Calvinism debate, so I'm not going to spend any more time on this here.

Spiritual Israelite · Sep 21, 2022

Paul Malcomson said:
Where does it say the DOTL is anything other than a climactic day that no wicked survives and which ushers in the NHNE?

I have no idea how anyone can come to that conclusion after reading passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. You have to just ignore those passages in order to come to the conclusions that the day of the Lord refers to a long period of time.

Spiritual Israelite · Sep 21, 2022

Randy Kluth said:
Not so simple. You completely ignored the main point! I was arguing that the Abrahamic Covenant guaranteed an *eternal inheritance* for Israel and for the nations, which has not yet happened. For example, do you see the nation Israel secure in their land, free from all worries about their enemies? No.

According to Paul the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16,29). Why do you have the promises to Abraham and his seed applying to Israel and other nations when Paul taught they apply to Christ and His followers? Do you not have any respect for Paul's teaching? Don't you think we can trust that Paul knew what he was talking about?

Spiritual Israelite · Sep 21, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
I Disagree, (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20 doesn't represent that of Jesus Christ as you believe and teach

It represents the (First Resurrection) that takes place on the last day as you have been shown, once again

Paul there are (2) resurrection on the last day, the righteous are (The First Resurrection) to eternal life, (The Second Resurrection) is the wicked, this is the resurrection of the (Second Death)

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

But, it indicates that those who have part in the first resurrection live and reign with Christ during the thousand years. With that being the case, how can the first resurrection not occur until the last day? Yes, we agree that all people, saved and lost, will be bodily resurrected at generally the same time on the last day (John 5:28-29), but that is not the first resurrection. There would be no ability to reign with Christ during the thousand years if the first resurrection didn't occur until the last day.

You kind of believe in a form of Amillennialism that is all to yourself in some ways, it seems. I've never seen an Amil try to say that the first resurrection occurs on the last day before. Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and believers all spiritually have had part in His resurrection (the first resurrection) for the past almost 2,000 years.

Spiritual Israelite · Sep 21, 2022

Truth7t7 said:
Yes We Disagree

The scripture below gives the definition and timing of (The First Resurrection) and it takes place at the finish of the 1,000 years, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, clear, simple, easy to understand

The verse below has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago as you believe and teach, it pertains to the "Future" resurrection

Paul I will continue to post this biblical truth against your error, concerning the interpretation of (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

You are mistaken. The rest of the dead are contrasted with those from verse 4 who have part in the first resurrection. What you're not understanding here is that the first sentence of Revelation 20:5 is a parenthetical statement. Translations like the NIV even put it in parentheses. The second sentence describes what was said before that in verse 4.

And, as I said in another post I just made, those who have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ during the thousand years. You know He has been reigning a long time already, right? So, how can it be that no one has yet had part in the first resurrection? How can anyone reign with Him during the thousand years if no one has yet had part in the first resurrection?

jeffweeder · Sep 21, 2022

Spiritual Israelite said:
I have no problem getting what you were saying. Because of having part in Christ's resurrection by going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ, as Jesus talked about in John 5:24-25, the second death has no power over us. People should read a verse like Revelation 20:6 from that perspective and they should then see it is speaking of a current reality. It's true right now that the second death has no power over those who belong to Christ (whether physically dead or alive).

Thanks Bro'. that's a relief. Glad someone understands. :Agreed:

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