Assurance of salvation

logabe · Dec 3, 2011

MR ROSENBERGER said:
So richard are you saying you are going up and prentis is going down.?

Click to expand...

I believe both are saved and justified because they believe that Jesus shed
His Blood for them. That is a done deal. The problem comes when we mix
salvation with inheritance. Let me explain.

Today, much of the Church has been taught (as I was in my childhood) that
"getting saved" was all that I really needed to "get to heaven." The
implication was that if I got saved today and died tomorrow that I would be a
a full inheritor of the promises of God. Justification by faith was presented as
the only real requirement. It was many years later that I came to understand
from Israel's wilderness experience the importance of growing up into the
full stature of Christ.

All of the Israelites were justified by faith when they kept the Passover and
left Egypt. But how many of them inherited the promises? Only the
overcomers among them--Caleb and Joshua. The rest of the people were
"the church in the wilderness" (Acts 7:38), but they still died in the wilderness.
Heb. 3:19 says,

19 "And so we see that they were not able to enter because
of unbelief."

This is not an issue of Justification, nor of faith in the blood of the Lamb. As the
church, they did have enough faith to leave Egypt. As part of the body of Christ,
they will indeed be "saved." But because their wilderness experience did not
bring them into spiritual maturity, they will have to come into spiritual maturity
at a later time--after they have died in the wilderness.

For this reason, Paul uses the "fire" metaphor in 1 Cor. 3:11-15,

11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one,
which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold,
silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for THE DAY will
show it, because it is to be revealed with FIRE; and the FIRE
itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he
shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but
he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

This is the fate of the church in the wilderness. Will they be saved? Of course.
But because their works were not built by faith, they will "suffer loss." When
they stand before God, they will have to undergo another fiery trial to see if
their faith is sufficient to receive the promises. If not, it will take further
wilderness training in the fire of God's presence before they qualify for the
Promised Land.

How did we lose this truth? In centuries past, the Roman Church linked men's
justification to their Sanctification. This mixture was deadly, because no one
then could know that he was justified until he had been perfected. Hence,
virtually everyone would have to spend some time in Purgatory until their
flesh was consumed.

The Protestants brought in the concept of Justification by faith alone. They
were correct in teaching this, but unfortunately, they tended to neglect
Sanctification as a prerequisite to receiving the inheritance. Justification is
as insufficient for us in the NT church as it was for the Israelite church under
Moses.

It is certain, then, that many Christians will not reach spiritual maturity in this
life time. In Roman Catholic circles, they are hindered by fear and by a spiritual
inferiority complex. In Protestant circles, many are complacent, because having
gone to the altar, they think they now have their ticket to heaven and can live
as they please.

God will not give anyone the inheritance until they have grown up into spiritual
maturity. He will not give His authority to underage Christians. He is interested
in more than Justification. He brought us out of "Egypt" in order to mature us to
inherit all the promises of God. To mature us, He has given us the baptism of fire
through the feast of Pentecost. If we do not submit to that discipline and
cleansing fire in this life time, we will surely be subjected to it after the
resurrection in the age to come.

It is not that God is being mean. It is rather that His purpose is to raise
children to maturity. There is no direct route from Egypt to the Promised
Land. It always goes through the wilderness where Sinai is located.

Not only will the Justified ones be "saved yet so as through fire," but also
the rest of humanity. All of them will bow before Christ and swear
allegiance to Him at the Great White Throne. There is a Second Passover
for them, and they will also receive the baptism of the Spirit. They will
lack just one element to receive the promises of God--spiritual maturity.
The Great White Throne will be their moment of Justification by faith, but
they will yet be unqualified to receive the promises of God.

And that my friend is how Jesus will save the entire world. So you see, He’s
not a failure and His mercy is from age to age. Jesus is no respecter of
persons. What he will do for the Israelites, by saving all Israel, that is, giving
them another chance, he will also do for the whole world. Rom. 8:21 says,

21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from
the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the
children of God.

What a God!

Logabe

veteran · Dec 3, 2011

Some of that last part sounds confused Logabe. Not sure what you're really saying at the last.

Being justified and sanctified I know are taught as completely separate issues in some Church doctrines because of the two separate Greek words (hagiazo = "sanctified"; dikaioo = "justified").

Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
(KJV)

Rom 15:16
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(KJV)

Heb 10:9-10
9 Then said He, Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(KJV)

I believe there is a sanctification that comes by belief on Jesus Christ by His grace, and then also a sanctification that comes from the power of The Holy Spirit joined with it. Thus I believe all... that have believed on Christ Jesus are sanctified and justified by Faith.

There could be a difference with sanctification by The Holy Spirit, since our Lord Jesus revealed a difference between the ten virgins of Matthew 25, with only the five wise virgins having a spare vessel of the Oil to go with their lamps. Note what Christ prayed concerning His elect that He 'sent' into the world compared with those who come to believe on Him through their word (preaching)...

John 17:16-20
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
(KJV)

In that example, Jesus points to sanctification of His elect chosen sent ones happening through God's Truth, His Word. Per what our Lord Jesus taught in John 14-16 about The Holy Spirit Comforter being our Teacher, that's how we are given to understand God's Truth, His Word, and would represent that spare vessel of Oil that only the five wise virgins had.

I very much believe that sanctification will come about not just according to how righteously we live, but also by the purity in our hearts, by our Faith in The Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and by study of His Word and prayer to show ourselves approved unto God. And I do not believe any of us can reach perfection in that during this present world, but can be accounted perfect in it through Christ's Blood shed on the cross as we stay in Him and keep trying, not giving up.

RichardBurger · Dec 3, 2011

Prentis said:
You always repeat the same things Richard, one verse + your own understanding.

But you provide no explanations for the verses provided that show your interpretation to be faulty.

Blessings!

between you and I; I am the one that posts the most scriptures.

Prentis · Dec 4, 2011

RichardBurger said:
between you and I; I am the one that posts the most scriptures.

That doesn't do much if you ignore the rest!

logabe · Dec 4, 2011

veteran said:
Some of that last part sounds confused Logabe. Not sure what you're really saying at the last.

Being justified and sanctified I know are taught as completely separate issues in some Church doctrines because of the two separate Greek words (hagiazo = "sanctified"; dikaioo = "justified").

Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
(KJV)

Rom 15:16
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(KJV)

Heb 10:9-10
9 Then said He, Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(KJV)

I believe there is a sanctification that comes by belief on Jesus Christ by His grace, and then also a sanctification that comes from the power of The Holy Spirit joined with it. Thus I believe all... that have believed on Christ Jesus are sanctified and justified by Faith.

There could be a difference with sanctification by The Holy Spirit, since our Lord Jesus revealed a difference between the ten virgins of Matthew 25, with only the five wise virgins having a spare vessel of the Oil to go with their lamps. Note what Christ prayed concerning His elect that He 'sent' into the world compared with those who come to believe on Him through their word (preaching)...

John 17:16-20
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17

Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.

Click to expand...

18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
(KJV)

In that example, Jesus points to sanctification of His elect chosen sent ones happening through God's Truth, His Word. Per what our Lord Jesus taught in John 14-16 about The Holy Spirit Comforter being our Teacher, that's how we are given to understand God's Truth, His Word, and would represent that spare vessel of Oil that only the five wise virgins had.

I very much believe that sanctification will come about not just according to how righteously we live, but also by the purity in our hearts, by our Faith in The Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and by study of His Word and prayer to show ourselves approved unto God. And I do not believe any of us can reach perfection in that during this present world, but can be accounted perfect in it through Christ's Blood shed on the cross as we stay in Him and keep trying, not giving up.

Justification is by faith alone. But once a person has been justified, saved, born
again—whatever one prefers to call it—then God begins to teach the believer
obedience. No one is justified by the law—that is, by obedience to the law. But
neither is a believer sanctified apart from the law. A true Pentecostal is not
lawless but lawful.

Israel was “saved” or “justified by faith” when they left Egypt. That is, they
heeded the call and had faith that God would bring them out of bondage
and into the inheritance that He had promised them. This preceded the law
by about fifty days. This was to show us that justification is distinct from the
law and from sanctification.

Romans 10:17 tells us that “faith comes by hearing.” In the Hebrew language
of the Old Testament, the word shema means “to hear or to obey.” We can
translate it either way and still be correct. In other words, the biblical concept
of hearing God cannot be separated from obedience to what one has heard. If
a person claims to have heard God speak, but does not obey His voice, then
that person has not really heard at all. This is what the Apostle James meant
when he wrote in James 2:17 and 24,

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by
itself. . .
24 You see that a man is justified by works, and not
by faith alone.

This has confused many people, who think that the Apostle James was
contradicting the Apostle Paul (Rom. 3:28 to 4:5). But this is not the case.
Both were correct. Paul was correct in separating justification from
sanctification—that is, Passover from Pentecost. But James was correct in
putting works with faith—that is, obedience with hearing.

Paul's teaching tells us that Passover and Pentecost are two different festivals
that commemorate two different occasions. Israel came out of Egypt prior to
receiving the law at Mount Sinai. Hence, justification is by faith, apart from
obedience to the law.

James' teaching tells us that on the feast of Passover, Israel received the
revelation that they were to kill a lamb and put the blood on the door posts
and lintels of their houses. Hearing that word was not enough. They had to
act upon it in order to save their first born sons from death. Thus, obedience
is the result of faith, and without obedience, there is no genuine faith at all.

If you have been justified by faith and believe that Jesus Christ died for your
sins and rose again for your justification, then you have begun your journey
to the Promised Land. You have “left Egypt,” the place where you were in
bondage to your sin. You are now part of the “congregation” (Church), even
as those who left Egypt on Passover were part of the Church in the wilderness.
This means you are now a CITIZEN of the Kingdom. The citizens under Moses
were allowed to enter the outer court of the Tabernacle.

There were three parts in the Tabernacle of Moses: the outer court, the Holy
Place, and the Most Holy Place. When considering ourselves to be the temple
of God, these three parts of the Tabernacle correspond to body, soul, and
spirit. But we may also view these three parts in terms of our place in the
Kingdom: Citizen, Priest, and body of the High Priest.

Once you have left Egypt and become a citizen of the Kingdom, you are eligible
to go to “Mount Sinai” to experience Pentecost. This is sometimes referred to
as a “second work of grace” in our lives. A true Pentecostal is one who enters
the Holy Place of the Tabernacle. Only the priests could enter the Holy Place.
Thus, a true Pentecostal is more than a mere CITIZEN of the Kingdom. He is also
a PRIEST of the Kingdom.

The Old Testament pattern for this is seen in the fact that those of the tribe of
Levi were citizens of the Kingdom, but the descendants of Aaron were priests.

The meaning for us is this: We ourselves were saved from our own bondage by
Jesus' death on the Cross. He died at the Feast of Passover to bring the Church
to its divine inheritance, its “Promised Land.” But this was only the beginning of
the journey. Seven weeks later on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was given
to the Church (Acts 2). This was the true fulfillment of Pentecost, even as Jesus'
death on the Cross was the true fulfillment of Passover.

But Pentecost was not the final feast to be fulfilled. The third great festival was
the Feast of Booths, representing the inheritance, our “Promised Land.” This
does not refer to a person “going to heaven.” Heaven is not our inheritance. Our
inheritance is the glorified body, the “tabernacle” that will clothe us in immortality
(2 Cor. 5:1-4).

You see, we lost that immortal body when Adam sinned long ago. The body is made
of the dust of the ground. It is our “land inheritance.” God's intention was to display
His glory in the earth as it is in heaven. His purpose will not be fulfilled until His glory
covers the earth as the waters cover the sea (Hab. 2:14). His intention is not to
destroy this “dust” but to fill it with His glory. This was illustrated and proven by Jesus
Himself when He was transfigured in the mount (Matt. 17:1-5).

An overcomer is one who makes the journey all the way from “Egypt” to the “
"Promised Land.” To do this, he must first leave Egypt. That is, he experiences Passover
by placing his faith in Jesus Christ, the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29). In the New Testament,
this is called “Justification” (Rom. 4:25).

Secondly, he experiences Pentecost by being filled with the Holy Spirit. This is a separate
experience that begins the process called “Sanctification”. This means we are set apart
for divine service, and that we begin learning obedience by being led by the Holy Spirit.
As a person learns to be led by the Spirit, he learns to hear and obey the voice of God.

If he qualifies as a faithful servant, then he is eligible for the third and final festival,
Booths, by which he is clothed with the robe of immortality. Every believer will
receive this reward eventually, but not everyone will do so at the first resurrection.
Most will have to await the second resurrection. The simple fact is that the Church of
the Pentecostal Age in the past 2,000 years has followed the example of the Israelite
“Church in the wilderness” under Moses. Hebrews 6:11,

11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but
sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it,
afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

Sanctification is an everyday process and Justification is a one time experience. That's
why we struggle with it... we have to die everyday and that means we have to learn to
walk in the Spirit and trust in him for our Sanctification. What for? So we can be
counted worthy for the 1st Resurrection. We're not sanctifying ourselves... we're
allowing God to work in us, but, if we rebel against what God is doing, He will allow
us to disqualify ourselves and thereby give up the birthright, which is, receiving our
immortal bodies in the 1st Resurrection. Hebrews 11:35 says,

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others
were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might
obtain a better resurrection:

Logabe

Jake · Dec 4, 2011

RichardBurger said:
between you and I; I am the one that posts the most scriptures.

.....and satan can recite all of them.

RichardBurger · Dec 5, 2011

Jake said:
.....and satan can recite all of them.

So can the Holy Spirit. So what!!!!???

Prentis said:
That doesn't do much if you ignore the rest!

You ignore that the gospel changed from law to grace, man's works and God's work on the cross.

You ignore that Paul said the gospel he preached was hidden in God and given to him by Jesus.

You ignore that The book of James was written to the Jews, not the Gentiles.

You ignore that there is not one mention by Jesus and the 12 about salvation by faith alone.

There are many more I can mention but I list these to show that you shouldn't accuse others of doing the same things you do. That is being a hypocrite.

logabe · Dec 11, 2011

veteran said:
Some of that last part sounds confused Logabe. Not sure what you're really saying at the last.

Being justified and sanctified I know are taught as completely separate issues in some Church doctrines because of the two separate Greek words (hagiazo = "sanctified"; dikaioo = "justified").

Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
(KJV)

Rom 15:16
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(KJV)

Heb 10:9-10
9 Then said He, Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(KJV)

I believe there is a sanctification that comes by belief on Jesus Christ by His grace, and then also a sanctification that comes from the power of The Holy Spirit joined with it. Thus I believe all... that have believed on Christ Jesus are sanctified and justified by Faith.

There could be a difference with sanctification by The Holy Spirit, since our Lord Jesus revealed a difference between the ten virgins of Matthew 25, with only the five wise virgins having a spare vessel of the Oil to go with their lamps. Note what Christ prayed concerning His elect that He 'sent' into the world compared with those who come to believe on Him through their word (preaching)...

John 17:16-20
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
(KJV)

In that example, Jesus points to sanctification of His elect chosen sent ones happening through God's Truth, His Word. Per what our Lord Jesus taught in John 14-16 about The Holy Spirit Comforter being our Teacher, that's how we are given to understand God's Truth, His Word,

and would represent that spare vessel of Oil that only the five wise virgins had.

Click to expand...

I very much believe that sanctification will come about not just according to how righteously we live, but also by the purity in our hearts, by our Faith in The Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and by study of His Word and prayer to show ourselves approved unto God. And I do not believe any of us can reach perfection in that during this present world, but can be accounted perfect in it through Christ's Blood shed on the cross as we stay in Him and keep trying, not giving up.

Jesus told a parable about a time period in Matt. 25:1-13. It is about 10 virgins, five of which
were wise, and five of which were foolish. They were all virgins, which indicates that they were
all Christian believers. But five had oil, while five did not. The five did not have time to buy oil
before the Bridegroom came and the door shut.

This is not a parable about the saved vs. the unsaved. It is a parable about the overcomers vs.
other believers. They were all “virgins.” And even the foolish virgins succeeded in purchasing
oil (25:10). The problem was that they did not have time to qualify as overcomers.

Logabe

RichardBurger · Dec 11, 2011

logabe said:
Jesus told a parable about a time period in Matt. 25:1-13. It is about 10 virgins, five of which
were wise, and five of which were foolish. They were all virgins, which indicates that they were
all Christian believers. But five had oil, while five did not. The five did not have time to buy oil
before the Bridegroom came and the door shut.

This is not a parable about the saved vs. the unsaved. It is a parable about the overcomers vs.
other believers. They were all “virgins.” And even the foolish virgins succeeded in purchasing
oil (25:10). The problem was that they did not have time to qualify as overcomers.

Logabe

I know you will not see it but Jesus was talking to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses, and not to the Gentiles under grace.

Episkopos · Dec 11, 2011

RichardBurger said:
I know you will not see it but Jesus was talking to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses, and not to the Gentiles under grace.

Both Jews AND Gentiles are qualified to receive grace...there is no difference. All must cease from the works of the old nature and be regenerated by the Spirit. The heart must be circumcised. The flesh profits nothing!

RichardBurger · Dec 12, 2011

Episkopos said:
Both Jews AND Gentiles are qualified to receive grace...there is no difference. All must cease from the works of the old nature and be regenerated by the Spirit. The heart must be circumcised. The flesh profits nothing!

I have never said that both the Jews and the Gentiles can not be saved by the gospel of grace, Show me where you think I did.

What I have said is that the gospel of grace given to Paul by Jesus Christ is the ONLY gospel that saves in this age of God's grace -- and that is not saying the Jews in this age are excluded. What is excluded is the gospel of the kingdom which is under the Law of Moses. In this age of God's grace we are no longer under the Law of Moses. We are dead to the Law of Moses in this age of the gospel of God's grace.

Episkopos · Dec 13, 2011

RichardBurger said:
I have never said that both the Jews and the Gentiles can not be saved by the gospel of grace, Show me where you think I did.

What I have said is that the gospel of grace given to Paul by Jesus Christ is the ONLY gospel that saves in this age of God's grace -- and that is not saying the Jews in this age are excluded. What is excluded is the gospel of the kingdom which is under the Law of Moses. In this age of God's grace we are no longer under the Law of Moses. We are dead to the Law of Moses in this age of the gospel of God's grace.

We are being saved to be worthy of the kingdom...an eternal kingdom.

RichardBurger · Dec 13, 2011

Episkopos said:
We are being saved to be worthy of the kingdom...an eternal kingdom.

We, those saved under grace, will never be in the Kingdom on this earth that was promised to the Jews.

Philippians 3:17-21 --- Our Citizenship in Heaven
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.
18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame — who set their mind on earthly things.
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
NKJV

Note that Paul calls our flesh bodies, lowly

Episkopos · Dec 13, 2011

RichardBurger said:
We, those saved under grace, will never be in the Kingdom on this earth that was promised to the Jews.

Philippians 3:17-21 --- Our Citizenship in Heaven
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.
18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame — who set their mind on earthly things.
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
NKJV

Note that Paul calls our flesh bodies, lowly

The present habitation of flesh is lowly in comparison to the one that true disciples of Christ will receive in the next age. Perspective is very important to understand the bible properly.

The next age will be on a new earth where things like skin colour, race, language, gender and culture have zero bearing.

We can enter into the kingdom LIFE now through Christ who abides in us and we in Him. We can see as God sees through grace...and love as He loves through Him.

aspen · Dec 13, 2011

Assurance of salvation comes through a relationship with Christ not from a Book.

You can argue back and forth all day long about how the Bible says that God promises salvation or how God makes salvation contingent on other factors.

The fact is, if God knows you in the context of an intimate relationship - He provides you with the faith to believe that you are saved - sort of like a being in a good marriage. If He doesn't know you, no amount of Bible verses or air-tight theological arguments are going to convince God that He actually owes you salvation! I cannot believe how many Reformed Calvinists believe they are predestined for salvation - as if their understanding of how salvation works is going to bully God into letting them in. Bad marriages can take on a similar feel - in desperation, a partner who is being dumped may refer to the contractual agreement they both promised to follow - none of that matters of course, if the relationship is dead.

The strange thing is that when you know that you are in an intimate relationship with God and that you are experiencing salvation, all the verses in the Bible that seem to speak about being saved once and for all scream out to you. Yet, no amount of arguing from scripture with people about being saved once and for all is going to convince a person who doesn't believe it, nor with it convince God if He doesn't know you.

So the question is, do you know God? Because no about of lawyering through scripture is going to win your case without a relationship.

logabe · Dec 17, 2011

veteran said:
Some of that last part sounds confused Logabe. Not sure what you're really saying at the last.

Click to expand...

Being justified and sanctified I know are taught as completely separate issues in some Church doctrines because of the two separate Greek words (hagiazo = "sanctified"; dikaioo = "justified").

Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
(KJV)

Rom 15:16
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(KJV)

Heb 10:9-10
9 Then said He, Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(KJV)

I believe there is a sanctification that comes by belief on Jesus Christ by His grace, and then also a sanctification that comes from the power of The Holy Spirit joined with it. Thus I believe all... that have believed on Christ Jesus are sanctified and justified by Faith.

There could be a difference with sanctification by The Holy Spirit, since our Lord Jesus revealed a difference between the ten virgins of Matthew 25, with only the five wise virgins having a spare vessel of the Oil to go with their lamps. Note what Christ prayed concerning His elect that He 'sent' into the world compared with those who come to believe on Him through their word (preaching)...

John 17:16-20
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
(KJV)

In that example, Jesus points to sanctification of His elect chosen sent ones happening through God's Truth, His Word. Per what our Lord Jesus taught in John 14-16 about The Holy Spirit Comforter being our Teacher, that's how we are given to understand God's Truth, His Word, and would represent that spare vessel of Oil that only the five wise virgins had.

I very much believe that sanctification will come about not just according to how righteously we live, but also by the purity in our hearts, by our Faith in The Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and by study of His Word and prayer to show ourselves approved unto God. And I do not believe any of us can reach perfection in that during this present world, but can be accounted perfect in it through Christ's Blood shed on the cross as we stay in Him and keep trying, not giving up.

Let me try to explain myself... and I would like to reiterate the importance of the
feast days as I have mentioned in other post.

Salvation is portrayed in the feast days as a three-step process:
Justification, Sanctification, and finally Glorification. It is portrayed in
the story of "the church in the wilderness" as a journey from Egypt to
Sinai to the Promised Land. It is portrayed in the Tabernacle and
Temple as the Outer Court, Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place.

The Bible is full of redundancies, knowing first that we need multiple
witnesses to believe anything, and secondly, because humanity suffers
from deafness and hardness of heart.

But sometimes the middle step in this progression is pictured as a
transition from the first to the last. When this happens, the truth is
shortened to a two-step program. For example, we see the two sets of
feast days (Spring and Autumn), Old and New Covenant, the Scepter
and the Birthright, and even Judah and Ephraim-Israel (insofar as they
apply to this process).

Today we will dance the two-step. This is primarily the progression seen
in the callings of Judah and Israel.

Judah was the lion that was to die and be raised from the dead, as we
read in Gen. 49:9,

9 "Judah is a lion's whelp; from the prey, my son, you
have gone up. He couches [reclines], he lies down as a
lion, and as a lion, who dares rouse him up?"

This is illustrated further in the prophetic story of Samson, who killed
a lion and later found that bees had taken residence in the carcass and
had produced honey. It prophesied of Christ, out of whose death would
come the "land flowing with milk and honey." Samson used this to
produce a Passover riddle that his Philistine friends could not answer
without cheating (Judges 14:14). It portrays the fact that the "Philistine"
carnal mind cannot comprehend the divine logic that the death of the
Lion of Judah could produce something positive.

Learning this secret--faith that His death and resurrection paid the penalty
for sin and bought us into a direct relationship with God--is the first of a
two-step process. Unfortunately, many Christian believers, having taken
that first step, do not have a clear idea of the next step. Once they have
received grace by their faith, they tend to get the impression that there is
nothing further for them to do except wait for the train to heaven.

Or, to put it another way, they have left Egypt but have no map to the
Promised Land. So they sit and wait for the train to come and take them
there, not realizing that they are supposed to walk to Mount Sinai and from
there to Kadesh-barnea. In other words, they think of salvation as a one-step
hop from Egypt to the Promised Land, as if the two countries border each
other.

Pentecost is the transitional step to Tabernacles. The purpose of Pentecost is to
learn to hear God's voice, so that one can be led by the Spirit (pillar of fire/cloud).
The purpose of hearing is to have sufficient faith to enter the Promised Land.
Remember that the entire "church in the wilderness" had faith to leave Egypt, but
most of them did not have faith to enter the Promised Land. Paul comments on
this in Hebrews 4:1, 2,

1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of
entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have
come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news ["gospel"] preached
to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not
profit them, because it was not united by faith in those
who heard.

Verse 6 says that they "failed to enter because of disobedience." Keep in
mind that they were all obedient in leaving Egypt, but they had failed to
obey ten times since then (Num. 14:22).

The church today suffers from the same problem. They have all had faith
to leave Egypt, but they have failed to enter the Promised Land because of
disobedience. We are given ten examples of disobedience to show that it
was pervasive and not merely about a single issue. The problem of
disobedience is actually a problem that Pentecost was designed to overcome.
Pentecost was the feast celebrating the giving of the law, and if the people
had been willing to hear it, the law would have been written on their hearts.
But instead, they ran away (Ex. 20:18-21).

So in order to fulfill the final portion of salvation, one must enter the Promised
Land. There is an appointed time in history for entrance, of course, but as
individuals it is a matter of having the level of faith necessary ahead of time. In
other words, insofar as we are concerned, we have already entered the Promised
Land in our hearts. Our hearts are already there, even while we are yet learning
the lessons of obedience taught to us through Pentecost.

In looking at this journey as a two-step process, the first portion involves faith and
faithfulness, while the second focuses upon fruitfulness. This can be seen by
studying the Scepter of Judah and the Birthright of Joseph (or Ephraim-Israel). The
first is about faith in the blood of the Lion and the Lamb. The second is about being
fruitful, for that is the meaning of the name Ephraim.

One can look at the fruitfulness theme by studying fruit-bearing trees or even the
first-fruits offerings given at the three main feast seasons. But the ultimate evidence
of bearing fruit is about childbirth. Perhaps the ultimate truth is to understand
Sonship and to see that this is about "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27).

Passover speaks of conception; Pentecost speaks of embryonic development; and
finally, Tabernacles speaks of the birth of the Manchild, which is Christ in you. The
eighth day of Tabernacles speaks of the presentation of the Sons, their heart
circumcision, and their manifestation to the world.

This is the ultimate purpose of the feast of Tabernacles, and it is the reason
for "leaving Egypt." It is the goal of faith itself. In fact, we can even say that
faith is the means to an end and not the end itself. The purpose of faith is to
bring forth fruit, even as the purpose of conception is to bring to birth.

But if we were to plant a tree and then never give it water, would the tree
grow up to maturity? Of course not. If Christ is conceived and implanted
within the womb of our soul, but then receives no "water of the word," will
this Holy Seed come to full birth? Of course not. This is perhaps one of the
most pervasive problems in the church today, even as it was in the days of
Moses.

Let me add here that this Holy Seed will indeed grow up into maturity--but if
this does not take place in this present life span, one must finish the job after
the resurrection. No one will come fully into the Promise of God until he has
gone through the steps necessary to come to the maturity of their faith.

So I am not suggesting that immature Christians will lose their reward. I am
saying that it will simply take a bit longer for them to enter the Promised Land.
Only the overcomers will inherit the First Resurrection; the rest will get it at the
Great White Throne where the rest of the dead are raised (Rev. 20).

There is a general reward for being a believer in Christ; there is a greater reward
for those believers who are actually led by the Spirit and whose hearts are able to
hear and believe the Word of the Kingdom. Most believers have faith to wait for
the train; overcomers have faith to be led by the pillar of fire all the way to the
Promised Land. The quality of faith is different.

For this reason, it is helpful to know the laws of Sonship and the laws of the
Manchild.

Logabe

RichardBurger · Dec 17, 2011

aspen said:
Assurance of salvation comes through a relationship with Christ not from a Book.

You can argue back and forth all day long about how the Bible says that God promises salvation or how God makes salvation contingent on other factors.

The fact is, if God knows you in the context of an intimate relationship - He provides you with the faith to believe that you are saved - sort of like a being in a good marriage. If He doesn't know you, no amount of Bible verses or air-tight theological arguments are going to convince God that He actually owes you salvation! I cannot believe how many Reformed Calvinists believe they are predestined for salvation - as if their understanding of how salvation works is going to bully God into letting them in. Bad marriages can take on a similar feel - in desperation, a partner who is being dumped may refer to the contractual agreement they both promised to follow - none of that matters of course, if the relationship is dead.

The strange thing is that when you know that you are in an intimate relationship with God and that you are experiencing salvation, all the verses in the Bible that seem to speak about being saved once and for all scream out to you. Yet, no amount of arguing from scripture with people about being saved once and for all is going to convince a person who doesn't believe it, nor with it convince God if He doesn't know you.

So the question is, do you know God? Because no about of lawyering through scripture is going to win your case without a relationship.

I agree with you. Nice reply!

Episkopos · Dec 17, 2011

logabe said:
Let me try to explain myself... and I would like to reiterate the importance of the
feast days as I have mentioned in other post.

Salvation is portrayed in the feast days as a three-step process:
Justification, Sanctification, and finally Glorification. It is portrayed in
the story of "the church in the wilderness" as a journey from Egypt to
Sinai to the Promised Land. It is portrayed in the Tabernacle and
Temple as the Outer Court, Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place.

The Bible is full of redundancies, knowing first that we need multiple
witnesses to believe anything, and secondly, because humanity suffers
from deafness and hardness of heart.

But sometimes the middle step in this progression is pictured as a
transition from the first to the last. When this happens, the truth is
shortened to a two-step program. For example, we see the two sets of
feast days (Spring and Autumn), Old and New Covenant, the Scepter
and the Birthright, and even Judah and Ephraim-Israel (insofar as they
apply to this process).

Today we will dance the two-step. This is primarily the progression seen
in the callings of Judah and Israel.

Judah was the lion that was to die and be raised from the dead, as we
read in Gen. 49:9,

9 "Judah is a lion's whelp; from the prey, my son, you
have gone up. He couches [reclines], he lies down as a
lion, and as a lion, who dares rouse him up?"

This is illustrated further in the prophetic story of Samson, who killed
a lion and later found that bees had taken residence in the carcass and
had produced honey. It prophesied of Christ, out of whose death would
come the "land flowing with milk and honey." Samson used this to
produce a Passover riddle that his Philistine friends could not answer
without cheating (Judges 14:14). It portrays the fact that the "Philistine"
carnal mind cannot comprehend the divine logic that the death of the
Lion of Judah could produce something positive.

Learning this secret--faith that His death and resurrection paid the penalty
for sin and bought us into a direct relationship with God--is the first of a
two-step process. Unfortunately, many Christian believers, having taken
that first step, do not have a clear idea of the next step. Once they have
received grace by their faith, they tend to get the impression that there is
nothing further for them to do except wait for the train to heaven.

Or, to put it another way, they have left Egypt but have no map to the
Promised Land. So they sit and wait for the train to come and take them
there, not realizing that they are supposed to walk to Mount Sinai and from
there to Kadesh-barnea. In other words, they think of salvation as a one-step
hop from Egypt to the Promised Land, as if the two countries border each
other.

Pentecost is the transitional step to Tabernacles. The purpose of Pentecost is to
learn to hear God's voice, so that one can be led by the Spirit (pillar of fire/cloud).
The purpose of hearing is to have sufficient faith to enter the Promised Land.
Remember that the entire "church in the wilderness" had faith to leave Egypt, but
most of them did not have faith to enter the Promised Land. Paul comments on
this in Hebrews 4:1, 2,

1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of
entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have
come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news ["gospel"] preached
to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not
profit them, because it was not united by faith in those
who heard.

Verse 6 says that they "failed to enter because of disobedience." Keep in
mind that they were all obedient in leaving Egypt, but they had failed to
obey ten times since then (Num. 14:22).

The church today suffers from the same problem. They have all had faith
to leave Egypt, but they have failed to enter the Promised Land because of
disobedience. We are given ten examples of disobedience to show that it
was pervasive and not merely about a single issue. The problem of
disobedience is actually a problem that Pentecost was designed to overcome.
Pentecost was the feast celebrating the giving of the law, and if the people
had been willing to hear it, the law would have been written on their hearts.
But instead, they ran away (Ex. 20:18-21).

So in order to fulfill the final portion of salvation, one must enter the Promised
Land. There is an appointed time in history for entrance, of course, but as
individuals it is a matter of having the level of faith necessary ahead of time. In
other words, insofar as we are concerned, we have already entered the Promised
Land in our hearts. Our hearts are already there, even while we are yet learning
the lessons of obedience taught to us through Pentecost.

In looking at this journey as a two-step process, the first portion involves faith and
faithfulness, while the second focuses upon fruitfulness. This can be seen by
studying the Scepter of Judah and the Birthright of Joseph (or Ephraim-Israel). The
first is about faith in the blood of the Lion and the Lamb. The second is about being
fruitful, for that is the meaning of the name Ephraim.

One can look at the fruitfulness theme by studying fruit-bearing trees or even the
first-fruits offerings given at the three main feast seasons. But the ultimate evidence
of bearing fruit is about childbirth. Perhaps the ultimate truth is to understand
Sonship and to see that this is about "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27).

Passover speaks of conception; Pentecost speaks of embryonic development; and
finally, Tabernacles speaks of the birth of the Manchild, which is Christ in you. The
eighth day of Tabernacles speaks of the presentation of the Sons, their heart
circumcision, and their manifestation to the world.

This is the ultimate purpose of the feast of Tabernacles, and it is the reason
for "leaving Egypt." It is the goal of faith itself. In fact, we can even say that
faith is the means to an end and not the end itself. The purpose of faith is to
bring forth fruit, even as the purpose of conception is to bring to birth.

But if we were to plant a tree and then never give it water, would the tree
grow up to maturity? Of course not. If Christ is conceived and implanted
within the womb of our soul, but then receives no "water of the word," will
this Holy Seed come to full birth? Of course not. This is perhaps one of the
most pervasive problems in the church today, even as it was in the days of
Moses.

Let me add here that this Holy Seed will indeed grow up into maturity--but if
this does not take place in this present life span, one must finish the job after
the resurrection. No one will come fully into the Promise of God until he has
gone through the steps necessary to come to the maturity of their faith.

So I am not suggesting that immature Christians will lose their reward. I am
saying that it will simply take a bit longer for them to enter the Promised Land.
Only the overcomers will inherit the First Resurrection; the rest will get it at the
Great White Throne where the rest of the dead are raised (Rev. 20).

There is a general reward for being a believer in Christ; there is a greater reward
for those believers who are actually led by the Spirit and whose hearts are able to
hear and believe the Word of the Kingdom. Most believers have faith to wait for
the train; overcomers have faith to be led by the pillar of fire all the way to the
Promised Land. The quality of faith is different.

For this reason, it is helpful to know the laws of Sonship and the laws of the
Manchild.

Logabe

Mostly accurate...especially the 2 step understanding of being saved FROM and saved TO something. We are not created to be saved, there is the purpose of God to consider.

However, the immature in Christ do not have a second chance AFTER death in the second resurrection. The 2nd resurrection is for the nations that KNOW NOT GOD.

Those who are disobedient to the Lord after the initial salvation will be cut off from the presence of God and wander forever in shame and bear their own reproach.

RichardBurger · Dec 17, 2011

Episkopos said:
Mostly accurate...especially the 2 step understanding of being saved FROM and saved TO something. We are not created to be saved, there is the purpose of God to consider.

However, the immature in Christ do not have a second chance AFTER death in the second resurrection. The 2nd resurrection is for the nations that KNOW NOT GOD.

Those who are disobedient to the Lord after the initial salvation will be cut off from the presence of God and wander forever in shame and bear their own reproach.

This is a writing that says we are under the law of works. It denys that those "in Christ" are a;ready children of God because they have believed God and accepted His work on the cross. A work that recociles sinful man to Himself.

Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.

Episkopos · Dec 17, 2011

RichardBurger said:
This is a writing that says we are under the law of works. It denys that those "in Christ" are a;ready children of God because they have believed God and accepted His work on the cross. A work that recociles sinful man to Himself.

Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.

The liberty in Christ is not to be freed from the guilt of sins you keep committing. The power of Christ liberates you from the power of sin. The fact that you don't know this liberty shows that you should not be preaching from the bible...as you have not yet become a witness of Christ and HIS salvation from sin.

We are created to do good. You call this works. OK We are created to do good works. You are blinded to the truth. You see the word "works" and you go into your Pavlov' dog indoctrination...

I have a verse for you to drool over...

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If you do not do good works then your salvation is bogus. You are confused by Paul's writing that we are not saved by works OF THE LAW.

But the grace of God caused us to DO (work) the things of God. If we don't DO then we are not His.

Do a study about DOING and works, THEN come back to the forum and actually use biblical arguments.

Assurance of salvation

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