Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

LoveofTruth said:

"3:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."Acts 13:39)

Click to expand...

This is in context to how we cannot be justified by the Law of Moses.
Christians are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal.
In regards to being justified of all things: Well, I believe this is in context to how we are forgiven of our past sins (See: Acts of the Apostles 13:38).

You said:

"4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works."(Romans 4:1-6 KJV)

Click to expand...

Paul is fighting against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1).
This was the heresy that you had to first be circumcised to be initially saved (Which runs contrary to being Initially Saved by God's grace through faith without works).

We even see circumcision brought up in Romans 4:9-12.
The concern here seems to be the order.
In the time of Abraham (and not our time): Belief needs to happen before circumcision (a work) (Which is a parallel to how we must first believe by faith without works in our Initial Salvation and how that then will be followed by us then doing the work).
Abraham first believed the promise of God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
But if Abraham believed he first had to be circumcised to be initially saved, he would be making a work or the Law the entrance gate and foundation of his faith instead of by faith (Which is compared to our Initial Salvation in Jesus by His grace).
Initial Salvation is the focus here in Romans 4.
So God can impute righteousness without works. This is in our Initial Salvation.

For Genesis 17:14 makes it clear (that at the time of Abraham and not our time): One had to be circumcised, otherwise if they were not, then they would be cut off from among their people and they would have broken God’s covenant (with the people of Abraham during that time). Granted, circumcision does not apply to us today, but back during the time of Abraham it was required after one first believed God.

You said:

"6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."(1 Cor. 6:11 KJV) Notice he did not say by your own works in the flesh . Yes we do things in the flesh but we have to take heed to not glorify the flesh. He certainly doesn't not say here water baptism in any way is part of these works.

Click to expand...

Yes, I believe this happens in our Initial Salvation. But Keep reading.

1 Corinthians 7:19 says,
“Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.”

Revelation 22:14-15 says,
14 “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life. This is salvation. Keeping the commandments is doing what God tells us to do (like doing certain good works).

This is all a part of the faith because believing your whole Bible is a faith thing.
For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Metaphorically speaking: Protestants cannot take scissors and cut out parts of the Bible and say they are not a part of our faith. Works is a part of our faith because God tells us that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works and that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10). We have to believe this verse by faith, and not speak against it.

You said:

"3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."(Romans 3:24-28 KJV)

Click to expand...

Four things here.

#1. Yes, God has set forth Himself for us to be an atonement for us through our having faith in His blood.
But we also have to walk in the light as Christ is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin, too (See: 1 John 1:7). Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. So you have to love the brethren for the blood of Jesus to also cleanse you from all sin.

#2. Yes, we do have to believe in Jesus as a part of God being the justifier of us. But believing in Jesus is more than just a beginning faith in Jesus as our Savior. Sure it starts off that way. But to believe in Jesus involves believing everything He told us to do (With their being consequences in the afterlife by our not doing them).

#3. Romans 3:27 says boasting (the same boasting in Ephesians 2:9) is excluded when it is in reference to faith (i.e. the Law of faith). So Ephesians 2:9 cannot be in reference to works that are done in the faith but works done outside of the faith because a person is wrongfully boasting in their works in Ephesians 2:9.

#4. In regards to Romans 3:28: Well, Romans 3:1 hints at Circumcision Salvationism. So the viewpoint here is that we are first saved by God's grace and not circumcision (Which is a work). Circumcision was a part of the Law of Moses and not the Laws of Christ. So when Paul says in verse 28 that we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law he is saying that one is first saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by first being circumcised (Which would be the deeds of the Law, i.e. the Old Law).

“Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God
commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:19).

We are to commit the keeping of our souls in well doing (i.e. good works).
Why? Because it is a part of the faith (Ephesians 2:10).
God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12).
So if God's grace teaches us to live godly and righteously, then that is a part of grace and the faith. It's not an option as a part of grace.

As for a short rebuttal of Hebrews 9:10 saying that Spirit baptism replaces water baptism:

Well, I would encourage the reader here to read the whole chapter in prayer using the King James Bible, and then reread it in a Modern Translation (if needed). I say this because when we read Hebrews 9:10, the “time of reformation” is referring to the change in the covenants. When Christ died, the New Covenant officially began and the Old Covenant had ended. The diverse washings would be what Moses did and not what the apostles had done. Nothing is said or even implied in Hebrews 9 about how the apostles made a mistake in water baptizing in the name of Jesus. All things mentioned in Hebrews 9:10 is in context to things exclusive to the Old Law. Reread Hebrews 9 several times as needed if you feel you need it. But Hebrews 9 is not saying or suggesting anywhere that the apostles were blundering by water baptizing in the name of Jesus.

LoveofTruth said:

I think this is where we are trying to clarify what the work of agod is and what work w believers does and the purpose of that work and the kind of work. I do not believe that we are robots. I believe I said that already in a response. But some cannot see how we cannot be robots if God works in us to will and to do and make us perfect unto every good work through Jesus Christ and as ajesus said without him we can do nothing. Paul even said he lives but not him, the life he lived in the flesh was by the faith of Jesus Christ.

So what is being said? I am not saying when we are in the flesh that we can do any good or any spiritual think=gs as we live and walk in the flesh. I am saying that the flesh is connected to the old man, and in the flesh dwelleth no good things. It is in the new creation as we walk in the rule where Christ is in us working in us effectual working in the measure of every part make increase of the body . We as new believers are spiritual beings. The source of all our "good works" or "Holiness" or righteousness, flows from that life. Yes we are still in this physical body and it is the vehicle to manifest many actions and prayer and helping others and the infinite ways that Love can work . Faith works by love. But the access point into this grace wherein we stand is by faith in Christ. Christ shall dwell in your heart by faith. We are a new creation in that grace and dependant of God inwardly for everything. We eat the bread of life in spirit we drink the water of life, have strong meat, walk in the light of that life and the breath of God and empowered and strengthened in the inner man by that inner working of God in us.

This is truly a mystery and wonder how this happens and what actually happens inwardly to us. We can barely understand how God is working in us, or what spiritual life and power is in us. But we can know the hope in us , for Christ in you is the hope of comfort during our trial and daily cross. But when I said we cannot deny the flesh by the flesh. The source and power comes from God inwardly and yes we can then do all things through Christ which strengthens us.

For example. Lets say a man was an alcoholic before he was saved, then he was trying to fill the empty void of his inner being with the wrong things, he did not have God . But when he was born again God now fills the empty space he is satisfied and filled the hunger and thirst he had for righteousness is now satisfied to some measure. And he does not have the same desires and drawing of the alcohol. Yes his flesh will be tempted and a war in his members takes place. But before, when he would yield =to almost every lust and desire and he could not stop drinking. Now he knows the love of God and is aware of his sin and the joy of forgiveness from God and he knows that such a drunken state is a lost life and sinful to the God he now loves. He is tempted again as he is around others but now the Spirit is comforting him and Gods word is working in him, teaching directing, exhorting, convicting, etc and he has a choice as the new man and the now the power and ability to have victory over the flesh. There will be two drawings, the flesh and the Spirit. if he yields to the Spirit he lives and the flesh is crucified. He then suffers in the flesh and yes it can be known and the pain of self denial may still be there. But the inner joy of the Lord is His strength and the love of God moves him, he has a living hope in him and loses his life and finds his new life as he walks in Christ. This is all not done by simply trying harder in the flesh and human effort and by our own mental assent and power. Many have tried such dead works in man religious practices and it is a weariness and the commandments of the Lord to them are grievous. But if we walk in the word of the Lord and hear his commands and follow in the Spirit we will be rewarded and they will not be grievous but joyful.

I speak of these things having been in this struggle and joy and new life for a long time. I have seen many believers fall often and even today a brother who has been a believer for many many years was struggling in his walk and barely hanging on to faith. He was trying hard in his flesh but with no power and joy. That is where the relationship with the Lord inwardly is needed. We are to grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ . Jesus said to learn of him and find rest for our souls.

continued...

Click to expand...

I would agree with what you said here for the most part above. I am not in disagreement that we need a relationship with Jesus and His power to overcome sin, and we need to draw from the new man and not the old man to overcome sin and to live a life of faith successfully and to obey the Lord in glorifying Him in this life. No doubt about it. I believe we are given power by God when we believe and when we obey God's Word. When we act out in faith and we call upon the Lord for help, He is there for us. One is operating in the old man if they are doing things that are outside of God's Word. For example: If a person tries to obey God without first being saved by God's grace then they are operating in the old man still. If a Christian is believing something that is false about God that is exceptionally wrong, they are operating in the old man still. There is worldly wisdom that believers can fall into that can cause problems for a believer's faith. Depending on what it is in the Bible, it can cause problems for them in their faith in some way, or it can completely destroy their faith (Sometimes without them even realizing it whereby they are following another Jesus). Any Word of God or Scripture verse a believer does not believe or does not like (Whereby they seek to change it or ignore it) that verse is not going to remain in their heart and the enemy will take the seed of that Word out of their heart. Yes, I generally see the Parable of the Sower as referring to the gospel message, but I also see it as applying to believing other things in the Bible, as well. Believing the whole counsel of God's Word can have a huge impact upon us in loving God and others more effectively.

LoveofTruth said:

All the works we do are choices, yes, choices we must make to follow God and the leading of the Spirit. For those who are led by the Spirit are the Sons of God. But when we make a choice, and our will is submitted in spirit to do the things God commands, this is the result of already being in Christ and through faith and grace we show forth that we are justified and being justified by Gods work on the cross and His work in us. All can "
see" our faith and and so he "is" justified in such work of God.

there are many things Christ commanded to do and walk and we grow and learn of Christ and rest from our own works and cease from our own works and walk in the works God has prepared for us to do. I live yet not I and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God. I over come by faith, this is the victory that overcometh the world even our faith. For by faith Christ dwells in our heart and by faith we enter into the grace wherein we stand and we rejoice in the hope. Christ in us is the hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Christ in you is the hope.

Click to expand...

This is all well in good that you agree with obedience to the Lord and to live a holy life. I agree. But the idea here is whether or not holiness by the Spirit is a part of salvation or not. You appear to give me the impression before we are saved by a belief alone and not by anything we do. Do you see it as believing in the finished work of the cross and that is what saves you and changes you? While I am not denying we are saved by God's grace through faith, I don't believe this is the only thing that saves over the course of our entire life involving the faith. You disagreed that there are two aspects of salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is my Scriptural grounds for a secondary aspect of salvation we must partake of in this life we live out by faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This is living a holy life by the Spirit. This is a part of salvation. Further proof? Romans 8:13. If you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live. Galatians 6:8-9 to me is unmistakable. You did not appear to address this passage or Titus 3:8, and Titus 3:14. What about the Parable of the Talents? Was it a lack of faith alone the reason why the Lord condemned the unprofitable servant in Matthew 25:30? No. It was because he wicked and because he was lazy. Those are the reasons.

You also did not appear to really address how Hebrews 11:17 is saying the same thing as James 2:21. Being justified by works with Abraham offering Isaac upon the altar (James 2:21) is the same thing as Hebrews 11:17 saying that BY FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac upon the altar. Hebrews 11:17 does not say that, by the evidence of faith Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar. It just says... by faith he did that thereby proving that the justification by works in James 2:21 is salvific. Why? Because works are a part of our faith just as a belief in the doctrines in the Bible is a part of the faith. Faith is not just a belief alone or just believing in Jesus alone as one's Savior. While a person on their deathbed can be saved by God's grace through faith without works, if that same person needed to live out their faith, then they would have to also do the work of faith (Just like many of us).

Going back to the Old Law and or doing works of the Old Law would be boasting.
But obeying God by faith is not boasting because you are merely doing what He is commanding us to do.

Luke 17:10
“So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”

Side Note:

We can talk about living that holy life until the cows come home and sing kumbaya. But if we say things that contradict that idea it defeats the whole purpose. So when we say that is all just believing in the finished work of the cross or faith in the sense of a belief alone in Jesus that saves alone, and no works of any kind plays no part whatsoever in our salvation, then that basically is saying that we do not have to lift a finger for God to be saved and a person can end up being an unprofitable servant like in Matthew 25:30. Again, the parable of the Talents does not end with encouraging us to just believe harder or to focus on Jesus as our Savior harder or to believe on the finished work of the cross better, the idea is that we simply must do what God is telling us to do. This of course is after we are saved by God's grace and we know we have a relationship with Him. Paul says prove Christ is in your unless you are reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). How do we do this? How do we prove Christ is in us? By believing in the finished work of the cross all the time? By saying to ourselves we are saved by a belief alone? No. While we do need God's grace and we do need to believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, the way for us to know we have the Lord living in our lives is to see if we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). The person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). Commandment keeping falls into the self effort and potential works category. Granted, this is not all our self effort alone. We need the Lord to truly obey God's commands. We do need to operate by the new man. No doubt about it. But the point here is that we are not saved by Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism. Just believing alone with no action will only will not change anything for us. If salvation was soley in a belief alone, then one does not need to worry about sin or obedience, or doing anything for God. All talk of holiness at such a point is merely optional if one is saved by a belief alone.

While I could be wrong about what you actually believe here: You appear to see works as some kind of metamorphosis or result of having faith (a belief in Jesus and the gospel message). While I believe that we are changed and we can be influenced to a degree to do good things for God after being saved by God's grace, I don't see that as always being the case (Especially when we read the Parable of the Sower, or the Parable of the Talents and Titus 3:14).

LoveofTruth said:

The flesh always wants to boast and do things for its glory.

Click to expand...

Boasting is excluded when it comes to faith (See: Romans 3:27).
If it is going back to the Laws of Moses (the 613) or the works of the laws of Moses like circumcision during our time of the New Covenant, then it would be boasting because the Old Law is no longer in effect.

As I stated before, Luke 17:10 is saying that after we obey all of what God commands of us we can say we are unprofitable servants because we are only doing what He was commanding us to do. Meaning, there is no boasting. Boasting is excluded when it comes to the faith (i.e. the Law of faith) (See: Romans 3:27).

You said:

It is not easy to die to self and trust the Lord fully. The flesh will cry out. To truly believe is to fully surrender and lose your life, to be dead with Christ and buried with him ...but we don't stay there, we are also risen with him to the newness of life.

Click to expand...

You appear to disagree with my belief in the Bible that there is a secondary aspect of salvation that involves us living holy (of which you describe above here). So if it is just faith (belief) that saves, then living holy is just optional. If works and holy living is the evidence of faith (belief), then we are robotrons, but you don't appear to agree with that (as you said before) so this sets up a contradiction in your belief system here if you truly are saying that salvation is solely in a belief alone in Jesus or the gospel message and nothing else. In the fact, the Parable of the Sheep and Goats and the Parable of the Talents do not appear to be teaching salvation by Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism. All I can do is encourage you to read Matthew 25 more closely in prayer if you disagree with me on this point.

You said:

When I was first saved, I tried hard before I was born again to be good and follow Gods word, but I kept sinning and had no power to stop. I kept finding myself in the same place. Then I broke down and cried unto God and said I cants stop Lord Im sorry and I repented in tears. Then I heard a voice that said to me. "That is why you need Jesus". When I say the salvation in Christ and His work for me I was enlightened and all seemed brighter and a joy filled me a weight was gone. I was filled with such a love, it poured into me. I felt peace, gratitude, love, hope, forgiveness, I felt clean and pure. When I understood the gospel and life and Christ work for me and others. It was so wonderful and I saw the wisdom of God. I did not trust in my flesh , I was hungry to feed on the word and walk in the Spirit and to know God daily. And He was always there helping me showing me things correcting me directing me, chastising me. But this is the way I love to live in , not the flesh. I put no confidence in the flesh. I was bringing my body into subjection to the spiritual man in Christ. Then I was free. I had a sudden desire to share this love with others and help others. That was my new nature in the spirit and God gave me a command to go and find those unlovable people and love them. I dod so and a joyful wondrous path or love and wonder opened up. I had no desire for the things of my past. yes temptation still came and I have fallen many times and God lifted me up every time.

Click to expand...

I am not in disagreement that God can change our lives by the new birth. It has happened for me when I first accepted Jesus as my Savior.
I had a love, joy, and peace I had never known before, and I threw out my comic books even. I wanted to please Jesus alone and wanted everyone to feel the way I did. But we have to also realize that if we say that holiness plays no part in salvation then that means that our message is one that can lead others (even children who hear our message) to treat God's grace as a license to sin in some way (even if we talk about holiness all the time). One can wrongfully conclude that holy living is just optional if one believes it is solely by a belief alone in Jesus that saves us and nothing else. It sends the wrong message or a mixed message.

LoveofTruth said:

Maybe consider some of these verses about not being able to deny the flesh by the flesh.

Click to expand...

Okay. I do not believe we overcome the flesh by our own self effort alone without God. We do need to first be saved by God's grace and we do need to be born again spiritually, and we do need God living in our lives in order to overcome sin. This is not the debate of the issue here. The issue is whether or not works or living holy plays a part in our salvation or not. If works or holy living is optional as a part of salvation, and it's all a belief alone in Jesus that saves alone, then all talk of holy living goes right out the window because it is optional. If you believe one is changed to such a degree that they will just do good works then this falls back into the whole robotron problem (that you appeared to disagree with).

You said:

"3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phillipians 3:3 KJV)

Click to expand...

Confidence in the flesh in this context is referring to how Paul (Saul) used to be a Pharisee operating under the Old Law (that is no longer in effect under the New Covenant). This is not referring to how our obedience under the Laws of Christ within the New Covenant. If we set out to obey the Lord in the New Covenant of what He commands of us (after we are saved by His grace), then we are not having confidence in the flesh but we are walking after the Spirit because the NT Scriptures are inspired by the Spirit and the New Covenant way is a part of our faith in the Lord Jesus.

You said:

"7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:"(Romans 7:18 KJV)

Click to expand...

In Romans 7:14-24: Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee when he was under the Jewish system before he met Jesus Christ. Paul is not speaking as a Christian at this point. It is only in the first half of Romans 7:25 where he switches back to the present and thanks now how Jesus Christ has delivered him from such things and in the latter half of Romans 7:24 he points out how on his own (without Jesus) he served the Law of God but he also served the law of sin (seeing he was in the flesh in his old life). Romans 13:14 says, “But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” We are to clothe ourselves with Christ and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This does not mean that there is not some form of effort on our part to make this happen. Remember, we are fellow laborers (as you said before).

You said:

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
"(Romans 8:1 KJV)

Click to expand...

I think the key here is that we have to not only be in Christ but we have to not walk after the flesh (sin) or walk after the Old Law but we are to walk after the Spirit (following after the fruits of the Spirit) or in obeying the Lord Jesus. This is what will cause us to have no condemnation. In John 3:19-21 also mentions the condemnation. John 3:20 says that all who do evil hate the light. Saying we are saved by a belief alone in Jesus for salvation, and holiness is not a part of God's plan of salvation sets up the thinking that a person can sin and still be saved on some level.

You said:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
"(Romans 8:4 KJV)

Click to expand...

The righteousness of the Law is Romans 13:8-10. It's loving your neighbor which fulfills the Old Law. For if we love our neighbor we will not steal, murder, etcetera. If we walk after the flesh or after sin or the Old law, there is condemnation. But if we walk after the Spirit like in well doing (good works) like in Galatians 6:8-9, then we will reap everlasting life.

You said:

Rom 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. "

Click to expand...

So yes. Those who are trying to obey God by the Old Law, and yet they also are a slave to their sin cannot please God. The Pharisee did not have the Lord Jesus in their life to obey in the New way.

You said:

Rom 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Click to expand...

We receive the Spirit as a gift when we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. Paul's whole argument even in Romans is the heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism.” This again is mentioned in Acts of the Apostles 15:1. A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive Gentile Christians into thinking they had to be circumcised to be saved. Romans 3:1 asks: What profit is there in circumcision? Paul says in Galatians 5:2, that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. So if one thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved (Instead of by God's grace), they would be in the flesh and not in the Spirit.

You said:

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Click to expand...

Again, the flesh here is being under the Old Law that no longer applies to us as Christians. Granted, this could be a believer trying to obey God's laws while they are also trying to follow other things like man's traditions like the Catholic sacraments or something. They have no real power to obey because they are operating in the flesh or worldly wisdom and they have not fully surrendered to God and His Word alone. The only true way to put to death sin out of our life is by the Spirit and the Lord Jesus. Putting to death sin by the Spirit involves on some level on our part to act because we are fellow laborers. Self effort alone without God to obey His commands is operating in the flesh.

LoveofTruth said:

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

Click to expand...

In context, the flesh would be in this case a reference to sin or the works of darkness (Romans 13:12) with various sins that are mentioned as an example to Paul's readers in Rome (Romans 13:13).

You said:

1 Cor 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence."

Click to expand...

It is true that we can do nothing without Christ (John 15:5). Ultimately God or the Lord does the good work through us. Therefore, we cannot glory in our self effort alone (i.e. the flesh). No person shall glory in their flesh alone for anything that they did for God. That will not happen. The 24 elders will cast their crowns down before Jesus. But we are fellow laborers (as you pointed out before).

You said:

2 Cor 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Click to expand...

Yes, this type of flesh is different here. This is describing our body. Jesus can be made manifest in our physical body especially when we suffer for death for Him. So this is not a belief alone for salvation type thing going on here. This is a total sell out and surrender to Jesus to be willing to die in following Jesus. Believers must count the cost of following Jesus and it's not just a belief alone.

You said:

2 Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:"

Click to expand...

Paul is saying here that while he lives in physical body, he does not wage war in an unspiritual kind of way.
The weapons of our warfare are not carnal or physical.

You said:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Click to expand...

No doubt we continue to believe the gospel message that saves (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). But in order to get to the point whereby Christ is living in us and we are dead to ourselves, well... that involves our picking up our cross, denying ourselves, and in following Jesus. The Lord is not going to do that for us. I know. You disagree with the whole robotron thing. I get it, but quoting this kind of verse to me implies suggests your claim before that you believe works is evidence of faith and or abiding in Christ. While again I do agree that our faith and our abiding in Christ can lead us to do the good work, we do also need to make a decision in choosing to obey the Lord, too. Sometimes it takes self effort on our part with God to make this kind of sacrifice. If not, then it's the whole robotron dilemma (that you said you disagree with). To be crucified with Christ to deny ourselves and to live for Him in all areas of our life. This is co-operative effort on both sides.

You said:

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

Click to expand...

The part of this verse that “having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh” is talking about those believers (Who were once saved by God's grace) who were seeking to later be circumcised in order to be saved (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, and Acts of the Apostles 15:1). Circumcision was a part of the Old Law (that is no more). Paul is not referring to the works of faith here that involves our obeying the Laws of Christ. In Romans 6:14, Paul says he is not under the Law. Yet, in 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul says he is under the Law of Christ. So this means that Paul is referring to the Old Law in Romans 6:14 and he is not referring to all laws of any kind. The same is true of the topic on works.

You said:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Click to expand...

The flesh here is talking about the sin nature that needs to be crucified in a believer's life. We see Romans 8:13 this process of the Spirit helping to put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin).

LoveofTruth said:

Hello brother, God bless,


The "law of Christ" is not lived in or worked out or manifest by our human flesh nature or old man. we cannot do anything without Christ in us and by the spirit that can show the evidence of us being justified,

Click to expand...

Again, I did not make any argument of how we can operate in obedience without God and without us being transformed, and without the Lord doing the good work through us. Nowhere did I say that we can operate in the old man and obey God. That’s an argument that I never made. As I mentioned many times before, I agree that we cannot operate in the flesh (i.e. worldly wisdom or acting in a way that is our own way contrary to His Word) and obey God. Many times acting in the flesh was either being under the Laws of Moses or it was sinning. To such a person, they cannot obey God even if they wanted to because God does not abide in those who seek to be justified by the Old Law or with those who believe they are slaves to their sin in this life. The servant of sin (i.e. slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever (See: John 8:34-35 and compare that with Matthew 13:41-42).

Can a person strive to obey the Laws of Christ in the old man or the flesh?
Well, they can make an attempt to do so (But it would not be successful).

So bringing up this point is moot. We don’t disagree on this point so there is no real reason to bring it up. Where we disagree is on how you believe faith and being saved by grace and abiding in Christ (from being justified) automatically leads to good works and a life living holy in every case or instance (as showing that works and living holy is only evidence of one’s faith). I will admit that this can be the case at times like with the woman who could not stop kissing Jesus’ feet, but I don’t see this as always being the case. We learn in the Parable of the Sower, the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, and the Parable of the Talents of the reason why each of them failed. Nothing is mentioned about how they needed to have more faith or a true faith or they did not believe in the finished work of the cross or something.

You said:

this would include doing any outward ceremonies or diverse washings and carnal ordinances such as water baptism, these part of the OT to save us or be perfect in the flesh to add to the work of Christ for us and in us (including water baptism, that John and the apostles did before Christ death and later following Johns water baptism they did so after his death only they said rightly "in the name of Jesus Christ", that would be the right words but they still clung to the diverse washings Johns water washing being included in all such "diverse" work of the OT. Remember Pater and the many thousands of Jewish christians were still struggling under the law and customs as i showed very clearly in many post)

Click to expand...

First, do you believe we have to keep the Lord’s supper? Is that not a ritual or an ordinance or a ceremony of sorts?
So then you cannot condemn water baptism in Jesus name for the same reason.
Second, if you stop right now and reread again the whole chapter of Hebrews 9, “the reformation” that is being spoken of here is in context to Christ dying upon the cross and starting the New Covenant. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom when Jesus died. This showed the priesthood and the Law had ended. Jesus even basically says at the Lord’s supper that the cup was his symbolic of His shed blood for the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant). This is what is going on Hebrews 9 and there is nothing even remotely mentioned in the context to your view of reformation and the blunder of the apostles in water baptizing. You are reading Hebrews 9:10 in a vacuum and inserting your own ideas into that verse contrary to the context. The washings in context was what Moses was doing in that verse and not water baptism. Nothing about water baptism in Jesus’ name is even mentioned. This is not the first time we disagreed based on your ignoring context. You have in the past disagreed with me that Peter was talking about the Communicated Word and not the Living Word in 1 Peter 1 in being born again of incorruptible seed. Reading on into 1 Peter 2 makes it clear that this is the Communicated Word. Yes, there are other places in the Bible where it talks about the Living Word. I am not denying that. But there are other places where the Word is referring to the Communicated Word and this is based on the context.

LoveofTruth said:

The "law of Christ", is spiritual as we read of the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" , in comparison to the law of sin and death
consider this section closely. It has many elements of what we are talking about, The danger that I see in what you are saying is that you seem to be stressing the fallen flesh nature of man as a means to be justified in their works, and the works you speak of in context to this discussion is water baptism, the ceremony or type as a mean to achieve that. In this respect it would e no different than the circumcision work and the same concern would be applied to those who do water baptism with this thinking.

"8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."(Romans 8:1-8 KJV)

Yes this is all in context as all the verses I show are and they are related to this discussion

Note that the diverse washings and CARNAL ordinances were carnal in that respect and could never cleanse the heart or make us perfect according to the conscience. Or purge and clean our conscience. Only the blood of Christ through the eternal Spirit can do that (Hebrews )

Click to expand...

I see what you are saying. If what you are saying is true, then by default (Whether you want this to be true or not): You would also have to eventually conclude that baptism in the name of Jesus done by the apostles was their time of operating in the flesh (Whereby they were carnal minded). If this is the case, then the apostles themselves were not really set free from Jesus Christ when they were doing things for the Lord in their evangelistic efforts in the whole of the book of Acts being carnally minded the whole time with God still favoring them (Note: Yes, I am aware of the blunder in Acts 21, but one mistake is a far cry from suggesting that the apostles were in error the whole time from the beginning of Pentecost all the way to the end of the book of Acts). To lay charge to that claim (Which is the inevitable conclusion you are led to) means that they were carnal minded and they were abiding in death according to Romans 8:6 because they were all water baptizing by what we see in the record of the book of Acts. For Paul says that he was not delivered from his struggle in Romans 7:14-24 until Jesus Christ came (Whereby he thanks Him) as mentioned in the first half of Romans 7:25. Romans 7:14-24 can only make sense if Paul is speaking of his past life as a Pharisee when he did not have Jesus in his life yet.

We know for a fact that the apostles were not being carnally minded (Which is what being under the Law would do).

How so?

Well, here are two big reasons at Pentecost that proves my case here.

#1. Acts of the Apostles 2:43 says:
“And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.”

So if Peter was carnally minded by water baptizing (under the Old Law still by continuing in water baptism when he was not supposed to) that means he is carnal minded and abiding in death (Romans 8:6), and that means God could not have given his teaching any blessing whereby signs and wonders (Miracles) would be done by those who accepted Peter’s message.

#2. Acts of the Apostles 2:47 says:
“And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

So if Peter was carnal minded by putting forth the ritual of water baptism (Thereby being stuck under the Old Law), and if he was carnal minded, he could not please God then how could the Lord add to the church daily as a part of salvation at that point in time with all of them operating carnally in water baptism? It doesn’t add up.

This is where your belief starts to crumble. For if your belief was true, then nobody at Pentecost could do miracles and be saved because they were all following the carnal teaching of Peter in being water baptized. Nobody there could have technically be saved and added to the church if they were all following Peter’s carnal minded teaching of OT water baptism.

Please take note that I see Pentecost as a call back to the Jews to repent. The Jews already knew about God and I believe many of them possibly may have walked correctly at a previous point in time in their past life. But when they later followed the false Pharisee ways and rejected their Messiah they needed to repent, and come back to the Lord and that is what happened at Pentecost. Pentecost is not a mirror reflection example for our life. It is not teaching Initial Salvation for the Gentile Christian or as benchmark for all believers (Jew and Gentile) initially coming to the faith for the first time.

@LoveofTruth

Anyways, may God bless you (even if you continue to disagree).

LoveofTruth said:

In the OT the people God put under the law had to follow the law and Gods directions.. They could still be saved in their heart and yet still under the bondage of the law as Israel was. For example we read of men who were under the law and still had faith and could walk with God. Take David for example or Daniel or many many others. Even Jesus Christ was made under the law and he followed the law and kept it. This shows that a person who was under the law and required by God to keep it was not damned for doing so. Or else God would have caused all Israel to be lost no matter if they had a changed heart and faith or not. But if they did not have faith and trusted in the law as if they could keep it ( I mean aspects of the law such as the ten commandments etc) then they would seek to be justified by the law and not by faith. We read of a story like this in the New testament where a pharisee and a publican went into the temple. The pharisee was self righteous and the publican humble ad broken before God beating his chest. Jesus said the publican went home justified. That was under the law, he was still required to have the "bondage" of the law applied to him and follow what was required.

Click to expand...

#1. I believe the New Covenant officially began with Christ’s death and the 613 Laws of Moses officially ended at that point. There are numerous verses that teach this in Scripture (Hebrews 9:17) (Matthew 27:51) (Matthew 26:28).

#2. I think we agree on the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). I see the problem with the Pharisee was most likely due to the fact that he not accept God’s grace through faith (like the Tax Collector had done - Seeking forgiveness of his sins with the Lord by faith). He was trying to be justified by the Law alone with no mercy and grace by faith.

Hebrews 4:2 says:

You said:

It seems when Peter and the other apostles and the thousands of believers in Acts 21 were saved they were saved as a man would be from the beginning by grace through faith. But the details of the understanding of the New Covenant and the freedoms and the end of the law and Temple system etc, was not fully understood yet. Paul had a revelation of this and taught many. But the Old Covenant we read in Hebrews was fading away ready to vanish. God gave them a time of reformation and transition. A person cannot go against their conscience as Paul wrote, to do so is sin. If they did not have knowledge yet of the end of the Old Covenant fully, then grace would have been given. Just as a person could be saved under the law in the OT, I see the saints in the temple system who were saved could still have a right heart and as God gradually taught them by the Holy Ghost they would come to understand the freedoms they had.

Click to expand...

These are hard sayings. I believe they need to be more fully investigated. Peter knew of only the dietary laws before God revealed to him in a vision (a two fold message) of not to eat unclean animals.

You said:

Peter also was told by Jesus to go and teach all nations. Yet he didn't do this or fully understand it at that time. We know this, because later in Acts 10, (many years after Matthew 28) God told Peter to go to the gentiles and at one point showed him a vision and told him to eat unclean foods. Peter tried arguing with God and said "no so Lord". Peter was at that time following the law still of clean and unclean animals, and had been doing so for many years after christ death. But this doesn't mean he could not be a believer. He was. He just needed to have understanding of certain aspects. Jesus told them he had many things to say and to judge of them but they could not bear certain things them. But when the Holy Ghost came he would guide them to all truth. We see this also in Acts 15 when they believers came together about the Gentiles keeping the law and being circumcised to be saved. The Holy Ghost was part of that meeting and guided them along bit by bit.

So its not as simple as saying if Peter was still under the law at Pentecost then he was not saved and in carnal wisdom and how could he do the things he did and say what he said. This is not the right way to look at it. He was in faith and God was with him. We could also say that men like David in the OT who were under the law had faith and God was with them. If your argument is to be taken literally then the thousands of believers in Acst 21, (who had been under the law possibly since pentecost, as they may have been some of the thousands that were saved then) that they were all lost and in sin. i don't see it that way, as I have been showing.

Click to expand...

Interesting proposal. I would have to investigate further. If this is the case, God’s grace knows no bounds. So what about today? Can a person keep the Laws of Moses today and be saved? I would see that as being highly unlikely because we have a full account (or a more fuller revelation) of what happened and these precious truths with NT Scripture. In either case, this does deserve a deeper study with prayer (and with help by the Spirit).

Side Note:

Another point of study on this for me is…

Was the 613 Laws of Moses ever a part of the faith (While it was in effect before Jesus came)?

While the promise of inheritance came not by the Law, but by the faith of Abraham (To show how we must first believe in Jesus for salvation, and make that foundational to our walk with God), I see that the Law could potentially have been a part of the faith (as long as it was mingled with faith). But the Law by itself without faith would not be faith.

Matthew 23:23 says that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like…. Faith.
Also see Luke 11:42.

The righteousness of God (i.e. Being saved by God’s grace through faith, and living righteously by the Spirit) was witnessed by the Law and the prophets (Romans 3:21).

By faith, Moses kept the passover (Hebrews 11:28).
The Passover was commanded later as part of the written Law.
Again, Moses and others then would need to first have faith in order to make the Law effectual or of any real benefit. The Pharisees did not have the proper faith God was requiring of them, and neither did they keep the Law (even though they appeared to make it all about the Law).

I see that faith establishes the Law (as in regards to the keeping the righteousness of the Law, i.e. the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law like the moral laws: Do not steal, do not kill, do not covet, etcetera) (New Covenant believers fulfill the Old Law by simply loving their neighbor - Romans 13:8-10).

Ernest T. Bass said:

When Paul penned back in the first century there is "one baptism" (Eph 4:5) he was referring to the water baptism of the great commission that is commanded, that is administered by men, that saves and is age lasting. That one baptism is the same today as it was some 2000 years ago for God's word has not, will not change and no man has the power nor authority to change God's word. Just as the man-made idea of belief only cannot change God's word, belief only can never replace the Bible's requirement that men repent (Lk 13:3; Acts 2:38) confess (Mt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10) or water baptism (Mt 28:19-20; Acts 10:47-46; Acts 8:38) in order to be saved.

Click to expand...

I see water baptism as being a later requirement of the faith that we should strive to obey after we are first saved by God’s grace through faith without works. I see the faith as starting off as a belief alone (in regards to our salvation), but faith continues and is grows to be manifested as doing the work of faith and living holy (as a part of the Sanctification of the Spirit). From the beginning of our faith to the end of our faith, the just shall live by faith (See: Romans 1:17). We are justified by faith, whereby we have peace with God (Romans 5:1). We have access to his grace by faith (Romans 5:2).