Assurance of salvation

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Sabitarian

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Are all of you so blind that you can not read the Word of God as it is. Even the Apostle Paul had doubts about his being worthy of salvation. Most of you are so sure that you already have salvation, while turning your backs on the Creator and His form of worship and go along with the Papacy and their apostate form of worship dedicated to man. It is all form paganism and none of you are deserving of salvation acording to the Word. And yes I am able to judge you, but there is no need of my doing that as scripture does that for me. Please do not argue about salvation while celebrating apostate holidays, instaed learn about God'd Holy Days and celebrate them. NO! they are not JEWISH holidays, but the same Holy Days celebrated from the beginning of time, they are the Holy Days of God the Father. I celebrate His Holy Days and am not a Jew nor do I have a lock on salvation as I am as imperfect as all else.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

RichardBurger

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Again...Jesus does not make sinful people righteous IN their sins. He makes former sinful people righteous. God has not changed the definition of words on the cross. He has empowered men to be as He is. We are to be holy as God is holy. Is God sinful? Are we to be sinful as God is sinful?

There is a great confusion here. The devil is sinful. God is not. Those who are of the devil are sinful. Those who are in Christ do not sin (or don't have to). Jesus died so that WE could overcome through Him.

No one on this earth is righteous in their sinful flesh. We don't overcome by the works of our sinful flesh. We overcome by faith in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

I have read your arguements that say you can be sinless in your flesh. Well how well are you doing? Can you claim that you no longer sin in the flesh. You may think you can say you are but God has said that you are in sinful flesh and you will sin.

I believe that God has made a plan of salvation in which sinful men can be called righteous in His sight through faith in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. That is what I believe and your saying God doesn't do that is just your opinion and your opinion will send many to hell (IMHO). But I can assure you that if you do not believe in God's plan of salvation that saves sinful men then IMHO you are not saved---- simply because you do not believe it.

You said, "There is a great confusion here. The devil is sinful. God is not. Those who are of the devil are sinful. Those who are in Christ do not sin (or don't have to). Jesus died so that WE could overcome through Him.'

You fail to see the words "through Him." You don't seem to understand Paul when he said we are "IN HIM". We are placed "IN HIM" by the Holy Spirit when we believe in Him. Since we are "IN HIM" spiritually we are not seen as sinful by God. But the religious like to make a great deal out on man's works for religion so they can glory in what they do.
 

RichardBurger

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why do you judge, if it's not allowed?

Are you saying this to Jesus? The scriptures I quoted were the words of Jesus. Are you going to use His words to condemn Him too.

In the following I have condemned no one unless they condemn themselves by admitting they are religious and think they no longer sin and then it is not I that judges them but their own heart.

The problem with religious man is that he/she thinks they no longer sin in the flesh; it is the others that sin and so they spend their time on forums telling others not to sin in the flesh and at the same time they close their eyes to their own sins of the flesh.

Matthew 7:1-4
7 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

NKJV
 

RichardBurger

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The Christian has become MORE responsible for his sins...not less. Our reputation and witness in the world is not based on how much we can ignore our own sin based on our beliefs. God is mocked by this. Only the devil would want to soothe our consciences in order to permit sin with no second thoughts. What is being preached here is a disconnect with reality

So you say the preaching of the cross is foolishness . Paul said people would say that 1 Corinthians 1:18-21.

You can make all the foolish remarks about what I believe but it will not change my salvation because it is based on the power of God in the cross. Yours is based on what you do.

IMHO your witness to the world is that you have, through religion works, made yourself perfect so come and make yourself perfect too.

Nothing you say or witness to has to do with salvation through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

The Devil does not want mankind to trust in God's work on the cross and through that work have salvation. He wants men to trust in themselves and go to Hell.

 
1 Corinthians 1:18-21
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
NKJV

Galatians 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV

Are all of you so blind that you can not read the Word of God as it is. Even the Apostle Paul had doubts about his being worthy of salvation. Most of you are so sure that you already have salvation, while turning your backs on the Creator and His form of worship and go along with the Papacy and their apostate form of worship dedicated to man. It is all form paganism and none of you are deserving of salvation acording to the Word. And yes I am able to judge you, but there is no need of my doing that as scripture does that for me. Please do not argue about salvation while celebrating apostate holidays, instaed learn about God'd Holy Days and celebrate them. NO! they are not JEWISH holidays, but the same Holy Days celebrated from the beginning of time, they are the Holy Days of God the Father. I celebrate His Holy Days and am not a Jew nor do I have a lock on salvation as I am as imperfect as all else.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

Doubts?? I don't see it.

Romans 8:36-39
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

Are you persuaded????? -- I am.
 

aspen

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Determining whether you are saved or not is kind of a waste of time, isn't it? Focusing on being saved is focusing on the self - it is a compulsion for security and control. We are called to live a life of love through service towards God and neighbor. It is a life of risk and growth and love and redemption. Salvation is a state of being - yet, some treat it like an annuity that we either cash in now or in the future. I feel like directing you to the old folk song "One Tin Solder" - our focus is definitely just as misdirected.
 

Vashti

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Are you saying this to Jesus? The scriptures I quoted were the words of Jesus. Are you going to use His words to condemn Him too.

Sorry but I do not talk with Jesus only with you.

Are you saying that someone is bad and wrong and at the same time you say not allowed the judge - why was my question. I think that if someone uses this verse blindly, then he should apply it to himself - everywhere and always.

P.S. in my humble opinion it your remarks are foolish, because you do not understand what Episkopos said.

P.S. sometimes I think ( especially after the statements as above ) of the followers of salvation once and for all, they have distorted perspective on everything.
 

Episkopos

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No one on this earth is righteous in their sinful flesh. We don't overcome by the works of our sinful flesh. We overcome by faith in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

I have read your arguements that say you can be sinless in your flesh. Well how well are you doing? Can you claim that you no longer sin in the flesh. You may think you can say you are but God has said that you are in sinful flesh and you will sin.

I believe that God has made a plan of salvation in which sinful men can be called righteous in His sight through faith in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. That is what I believe and your saying God doesn't do that is just your opinion and your opinion will send many to hell (IMHO). But I can assure you that if you do not believe in God's plan of salvation that saves sinful men then IMHO you are not saved---- simply because you do not believe it.

You said, "There is a great confusion here. The devil is sinful. God is not. Those who are of the devil are sinful. Those who are in Christ do not sin (or don't have to). Jesus died so that WE could overcome through Him.'

You fail to see the words "through Him." You don't seem to understand Paul when he said we are "IN HIM". We are placed "IN HIM" by the Holy Spirit when we believe in Him. Since we are "IN HIM" spiritually we are not seen as sinful by God. But the religious like to make a great deal out on man's works for religion so they can glory in what they do.

You are missing the main point....Through Christ means without sin. Jesus Christ is not a sinner. So we must look at whether we have truly connected with God by the fruit. Otherwise we are just making up a fairytale from SOME of the verses while escaping the reality of the truth.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Dead to sin doesn't mean we have learned to ignore sin. It means we no longer are subject to it.

To preach a sanctification IN sin is to teach lawlessness. We are not to disobey the commandments in order to be justified in our own opinion through a belief system we support. That is folly.
 

RichardBurger

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You are missing the main point....Through Christ means without sin. Jesus Christ is not a sinner. So we must look at whether we have truly connected with God by the fruit. Otherwise we are just making up a fairytale from SOME of the verses while escaping the reality of the truth.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Dead to sin doesn't mean we have learned to ignore sin. It means we no longer are subject to it.

To preach a sanctification IN sin is to teach lawlessness. We are not to disobey the commandments in order to be justified in our own opinion through a belief system we support. That is folly.

Look, if you were right every child of God still alive in the flesh would be sinless in the flesh. Are you sinless yet? Can yoiu honestly say before God that you are sinless? If you can't then stop with your foolishness!

Sorry but I do not talk with Jesus only with you.

Are you saying that someone is bad and wrong and at the same time you say not allowed the judge - why was my question. I think that if someone uses this verse blindly, then he should apply it to himself - everywhere and always.

P.S. in my humble opinion it your remarks are foolish, because you do not understand what Episkopos said.

P.S. sometimes I think ( especially after the statements as above ) of the followers of salvation once and for all, they have distorted perspective on everything.

You can have your opinions but they are not for me.
 

logabe

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That is my point. Those that have total belief, faith, trust, confidence in Jesus' shed blood on the cross do not worry about their sin nature. Jesus provided a way for sinful people to be called righteous before God simply by trusting in God's work on the cross.

No! I don't have a problem with my sins of the sinful flesh because I know that "in Christ" I am free from them. -- But I find very few that really believe this.

I live victoriously in the Kingdom Of God by my belief, faith, trust, and confidence in God. When Jesus (God) sent Paul with the gospel of grace I believed it as the word of God.

The problem with religious man is that he/she thinks they no longer sin in the flesh; it is the others that sin and so they spend their time on forums telling others not to sin in the flesh and at the same time they close their eyes to their own sins of the flesh.

Matthew 7:1-4
7 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

NKJV

Let me ask you a question Richard... why is Jesus coming back a second time?

When God gave the law, He set the standard of perfection (righteousness) that
God intended man to live by. When Adam fell, man lost the ability to live up to
that perfect standard. Hence, the need for a Sacrifice by which we may obtain
forgiveness for sin.

When we come into the full image of Christ, we will do everything the law says,
because we will then be capable of fulfilling it—even as Christ was capable
when He walked the earth. If that perfect way of life is our future, should we not
be “practicing” even today? Should we not be imitators of Jesus Christ? 1st John
2:6 says,

6 “He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to
walk, even as He walked.”

The law prophesied of Him, “Thou shalt not steal.” Jesus did not steal from any
man.

The law prophesied of Him, “Thou shalt not murder.” Jesus murdered no man.

The law prophesied of Him, “Thou shalt not covet.” Jesus coveted nothing of
any man.

The law was thus prophetic of Christ. We were incapable of keeping it, but He was
was fully capable of keeping it—and He did. He did what no one else could do. He
made up for our deficiency. Jesus did not use other men’s imperfections as an excuse
to be imperfect Himself. He never said, “Well, nobody’s perfect, so I don’t mind
indulging in a little covetousness now and then.” Instead, He said, “Man is incapable
of living righteously, so I will show them how to do it by personal example. I will come to
earth and live among them. I will show them how it is done. And then I will ask them to
have faith in My blood as their Sacrifice for sin. I will then impute My righteousness to
them—calling what is NOT as though it were (Rom. 4:17), until such time as I finish my
work in them to bring them to perfection.”

So He gave the law and prophesied in it that He would bring us His righteousness in two
stages: first by imputation, making us legally righteous; and secondly by making us
actually righteous. Leviticus 14 and 16 speaks of the two birds that would heal man of their
“leprosy” (mortality) and the two goats that would cleanse man of his sin.

The first goat (Jesus at the Cross) was to COVER our sin. He imputed righteousness to us
by covering it with His blood. The purpose of the second goat (Jesus in His second coming)
is to REMOVE our sin. The first dove (Jesus at the Cross) was to impute immortality to us,
promising life to us. The second dove (Jesus in His second coming) will actually make us
immortal, where we will never experience sickness or death again.

This is the divine order by which He is perfecting us and giving us immortality. At present, we
are imputed righteous, for God is calling what is NOT as though it were. Thus, we are able to
go boldly before the throne of grace even now, for our sins are covered. When God looks at
us, He sees only Jesus, and He sees us as perfect, even though we are not.

In His second appearance, Jesus Christ will remove sin from us and transform us fully into
His likeness. At that time we will be made actually righteous. According to the law of the two
goats and the two doves, this completes the work that He is now doing in us.

At present we are to submit to His Spirit and know and understand it is God working inside of
us. We will not actually become immortal in this state, but we can become mature Sons by
learning to walk in the Spirit and giving God the glory for what he is doing now and what he
will do in the future. James 4:7-10 says,

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he
will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your
hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep, let your laughter be turned
to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift
you up.

I think he's talking about that "old man".



Logabe
 

jiggyfly

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Let me ask you a question Richard... why is Jesus coming back a second time?

When God gave the law, He set the standard of perfection (righteousness) that
God intended man to live by. When Adam fell, man lost the ability to live up to
that perfect standard. Hence, the need for a Sacrifice by which we may obtain
forgiveness for sin.

When we come into the full image of Christ, we will do everything the law says,
because we will then be capable of fulfilling it—even as Christ was capable
when He walked the earth. If that perfect way of life is our future, should we not
be “practicing” even today? Should we not be imitators of Jesus Christ? 1st John
2:6 says,

6 “He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to
walk, even as He walked.”

The law prophesied of Him, “Thou shalt not steal.” Jesus did not steal from any
man.

The law prophesied of Him, “Thou shalt not murder.” Jesus murdered no man.

The law prophesied of Him, “Thou shalt not covet.” Jesus coveted nothing of
any man.

The law was thus prophetic of Christ. We were incapable of keeping it, but He was
was fully capable of keeping it—and He did. He did what no one else could do. He
made up for our deficiency. Jesus did not use other men’s imperfections as an excuse
to be imperfect Himself. He never said, “Well, nobody’s perfect, so I don’t mind
indulging in a little covetousness now and then.” Instead, He said, “Man is incapable
of living righteously, so I will show them how to do it by personal example. I will come to
earth and live among them. I will show them how it is done. And then I will ask them to
have faith in My blood as their Sacrifice for sin. I will then impute My righteousness to
them—calling what is NOT as though it were (Rom. 4:17), until such time as I finish my
work in them to bring them to perfection.”

So He gave the law and prophesied in it that He would bring us His righteousness in two
stages: first by imputation, making us legally righteous; and secondly by making us
actually righteous. Leviticus 14 and 16 speaks of the two birds that would heal man of their
“leprosy” (mortality) and the two goats that would cleanse man of his sin.

The first goat (Jesus at the Cross) was to COVER our sin. He imputed righteousness to us
by covering it with His blood. The purpose of the second goat (Jesus in His second coming)
is to REMOVE our sin. The first dove (Jesus at the Cross) was to impute immortality to us,
promising life to us. The second dove (Jesus in His second coming) will actually make us
immortal, where we will never experience sickness or death again.

This is the divine order by which He is perfecting us and giving us immortality. At present, we
are imputed righteous, for God is calling what is NOT as though it were. Thus, we are able to
go boldly before the throne of grace even now, for our sins are covered. When God looks at
us, He sees only Jesus, and He sees us as perfect, even though we are not.

In His second appearance, Jesus Christ will remove sin from us and transform us fully into
His likeness. At that time we will be made actually righteous. According to the law of the two
goats and the two doves, this completes the work that He is now doing in us.

At present we are to submit to His Spirit and know and understand it is God working inside of
us. We will not actually become immortal in this state, but we can become mature Sons by
learning to walk in the Spirit and giving God the glory for what he is doing now and what he
will do in the future. James 4:7-10 says,

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he
will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your
hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep, let your laughter be turned
to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift
you up.

I think he's talking about that "old man".



Logabe

Good post Logabe, you just described the purpose and realities of the three feasts, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.
 

logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
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Good post Logabe,
you just described the purpose and realities of the three feasts, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles
.

You got it Jiggyfly... that's exactly what I was trying to do. If we can only
understand God's appointed times (feast days) we could master the
process of God's purpose and plan.


Logabe
 

jiggyfly

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You got it Jiggyfly... that's exactly what I was trying to do. If we can only
understand God's appointed times (feast days) we could master the
process of God's purpose and plan.


Logabe

I think that it is necessary to understand what God's goal is in order to understand God's plan and process. Which would explain why so many have difficulty interpreting the scriptures that explain His process through the ages and the outcome.
 

Episkopos

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So you say the preaching of the cross is foolishness . Paul said people would say that 1 Corinthians 1:18-21.

You can make all the foolish remarks about what I believe but it will not change my salvation because it is based on the power of God in the cross. Yours is based on what you do.

IMHO your witness to the world is that you have, through religion works, made yourself perfect so come and make yourself perfect too.

Nothing you say or witness to has to do with salvation through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

The Devil does not want mankind to trust in God's work on the cross and through that work have salvation. He wants men to trust in themselves and go to Hell.

 
1 Corinthians 1:18-21
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
NKJV

Galatians 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV



Doubts?? I don't see it.

Romans 8:36-39
36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

Are you persuaded????? -- I am.

It is precisely the power of the cross that kills the old man and his works. The power of the cross did not just kill Jesus....but all who abide in Him. As Paul said!

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If one is crucified...that one has ceased from his own life and the works he once did. If that one is then raised in newness of life...then what hold does the old life have over the new?

If we are in Christ then we are a new creation made according to Christ NOT to Adam. The new birth is for today. Miracles are for today. These miracles affect the outside world...not just the spiritual world.

Christianity is not just in the mind, but in reality. The power of the cross affects reality so that the world changes...beginning with those who abide in Christ.

Let me ask you a question Richard... why is Jesus coming back a second time?

When God gave the law, He set the standard of perfection (righteousness) that
God intended man to live by. When Adam fell, man lost the ability to live up to
that perfect standard. Hence, the need for a Sacrifice by which we may obtain
forgiveness for sin.

When we come into the full image of Christ, we will do everything the law says,
because we will then be capable of fulfilling it—even as Christ was capable
when He walked the earth. If that perfect way of life is our future, should we not
be “practicing” even today? Should we not be imitators of Jesus Christ? 1st John
2:6 says,

6 “He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to
walk, even as He walked.”

The law prophesied of Him, “Thou shalt not steal.” Jesus did not steal from any
man.

The law prophesied of Him, “Thou shalt not murder.” Jesus murdered no man.

The law prophesied of Him, “Thou shalt not covet.” Jesus coveted nothing of
any man.

The law was thus prophetic of Christ. We were incapable of keeping it, but He was
was fully capable of keeping it—and He did. He did what no one else could do. He
made up for our deficiency. Jesus did not use other men’s imperfections as an excuse
to be imperfect Himself. He never said, “Well, nobody’s perfect, so I don’t mind
indulging in a little covetousness now and then.” Instead, He said, “Man is incapable
of living righteously, so I will show them how to do it by personal example. I will come to
earth and live among them. I will show them how it is done. And then I will ask them to
have faith in My blood as their Sacrifice for sin. I will then impute My righteousness to
them—calling what is NOT as though it were (Rom. 4:17), until such time as I finish my
work in them to bring them to perfection.”

So He gave the law and prophesied in it that He would bring us His righteousness in two
stages: first by imputation, making us legally righteous; and secondly by making us
actually righteous. Leviticus 14 and 16 speaks of the two birds that would heal man of their
“leprosy” (mortality) and the two goats that would cleanse man of his sin.

The first goat (Jesus at the Cross) was to COVER our sin. He imputed righteousness to us
by covering it with His blood. The purpose of the second goat (Jesus in His second coming)
is to REMOVE our sin. The first dove (Jesus at the Cross) was to impute immortality to us,
promising life to us. The second dove (Jesus in His second coming) will actually make us
immortal, where we will never experience sickness or death again.

This is the divine order by which He is perfecting us and giving us immortality. At present, we
are imputed righteous, for God is calling what is NOT as though it were. Thus, we are able to
go boldly before the throne of grace even now, for our sins are covered. When God looks at
us, He sees only Jesus, and He sees us as perfect, even though we are not.

In His second appearance, Jesus Christ will remove sin from us and transform us fully into
His likeness. At that time we will be made actually righteous. According to the law of the two
goats and the two doves, this completes the work that He is now doing in us.

At present we are to submit to His Spirit and know and understand it is God working inside of
us. We will not actually become immortal in this state, but we can become mature Sons by
learning to walk in the Spirit and giving God the glory for what he is doing now and what he
will do in the future. James 4:7-10 says,

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he
will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your
hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep, let your laughter be turned
to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift
you up.

I think he's talking about that "old man".



Logabe

There is no such thing as a righteousness that isn't righteous in reality. When we abide in Christ His righteousness is demonstrated in us. This is because we cannot abide in Him unless we are made conformable to his death...which gets us out of the way so to speak. If we walk in His righteousness we walk exactly as He walked...in the same power...in holiness. This is an actual righteousness so that we walk in a miraculous way. That is the power of the new in Christ.

As for the two goats...the scape goat does NOT represent Jesus Christ. Azazel is known as evil among the Jews. Azazel is sent into the wilderness....

The two identical goats sacrificed at Yom Kippur represent those who follow Christ...one is sacrificed and the other is rejected with his sins laid back on him. That goat is sent into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

Episkopos

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Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This can only be done by actual faith...the kind that moves God's heart. Wishful thinking and doctrinal imputations will only lead to the frustration of the will of God in our lives.
 

Phillip

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Both Jews AND Gentiles are qualified to receive grace...there is no difference. All must cease from the works of the old nature and be regenerated by the Spirit. The heart must be circumcised. The flesh profits nothing!

Of course, there is no difference;
(Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 

logabe

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It is precisely the power of the cross that kills the old man and his works. The power of the cross did not just kill Jesus....but all who abide in Him. As Paul said!

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If one is crucified...that one has ceased from his own life and the works he once did. If that one is then raised in newness of life...then what hold does the old life have over the new?

If we are in Christ then we are a new creation made according to Christ NOT to Adam. The new birth is for today. Miracles are for today. These miracles affect the outside world...not just the spiritual world.

Christianity is not just in the mind, but in reality. The power of the cross affects reality so that the world changes...beginning with those who abide in Christ.




There is no such thing as a righteousness that isn't righteous in reality. When we abide in Christ His righteousness is demonstrated in us. This is because we cannot abide in Him unless we are made conformable to his death...which gets us out of the way so to speak. If we walk in His righteousness we walk exactly as He walked...in the same power...in holiness. This is an actual righteousness so that we walk in a miraculous way. That is the power of the new in Christ.

As for the two goats...the scape goat does NOT represent Jesus Christ. Azazel is known as evil among the Jews. Azazel is sent into the wilderness....

The two identical goats sacrificed at Yom Kippur represent those who follow Christ...one is sacrificed and the other is rejected with his sins laid back on him. That goat is sent into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Let me explain what I am talking about so no one misunderstands what I am
saying.

A legion of angels gave the word of peace to the shepherds in Bethlehem. They
came to announce the birth of Him who was prophesied in the law. He was the
fulfillment of the two birds (Lev. 14) and the two goats (Lev. 16) as well as all of
the sacrifices and vessels of the tabernacle and temple.

As the first goat, He would be killed, so that His blood could be sprinkled on the
mercy seat in the temple in heaven (Heb. 9:7-12). This would COVER sin and
impute righteousness to us until such time as the work of the second goat could
be accomplished.

As the second goat, Jesus is doing—and will continue to do—His work in us
while we are in the wilderness (world) being “tempted of the devil.” The second
goat was led into the wilderness alive, and Jesus, too, was led by the Spirit into
the wilderness on the Day of Atonement when He was baptized by John. This
work is not finished until sin is REMOVED from us, for the purpose of the second
goat was to remove sin.

At the present time, we do not see sin removed from us. Though some may claim
perfection, I know myself well enough to know that I cannot make that claim. Even
so, I do not wallow around in guilt, because the first goat has covered my sin, and
righteousness has been imputed to me in spite of my actual condition.

In the interim, we are to present our bodies as living sacrifices (Rom. 12:1, 2). In the
laws of sacrifice, men were prohibited from bringing to God any animal that was
defective in any way (Lev. 22:18-24). Thus, if I were not imputed righteous, there
would be no way for me to fulfill this command to present my body as a living sacrifice
that is acceptable to God.

I can only do this as the result of the work of the first goat, which is Christ's death on
the cross, because otherwise, I would still be disqualified for my spiritual defects.

Jesus was led into the desert, or wilderness, to be “tempted of the devil” (Luke 4:2).
But Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit, who was the “fit man” prophesied in Lev. 16:21.

Both of the goats in Leviticus 16 represent Christ and are fulfilled in Him. However,
they also represent the body of Christ. Though we will never replace the Head, the
body itself is said to experience the sufferings of Christ. In 1 Peter 4:13 we read,

13 “but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ,
keep on rejoicing.

In Phil. 3:10 Paul says,

10 that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His
death.

It is clear, then, that Jesus (the Head) is not the only part of the body that is
identified with the first goat. We too have a part in this, though not to the extent
that Jesus had to suffer.

The Christ that is coming forth in the second goat's prophecy is the complete New
Man, consisting of both Head and Body. Neither is complete without the other,
and neither can function as a qualified priest without being complete. The law
disqualifies a priest for missing any parts to his body. We are priests of God,
qualified only because the body is complete and joined to the Head.

Once we understand these things, we can then look at the work of the second goat
in a more personal way. The second goat was said to be “for Azazel” (Lev. 16:8).
This is usually translated “scapegoat,” but it was literally a satyr, a “devil” figure.
While the first goat was “for Yahweh,” the second was “for the devil.”

The meaning of this is made plain when Jesus was baptized on the Day of
Atonement as the first goat while the priests were killing the goat at the temple in
Jerusalem. Then, when the priests sent the second goat into the wilderness “for
Azazel,” Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be “tempted of the devil.”

It does not mean that Jesus was being given to the devil in some nefarious way. It
means that in the divine plan, the devil was God's agent to test Jesus to see if
there was any wicked way in Him. Jesus passed all the tests and was later able to
say in John 14:30,

30 “the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

Jesus' testing in the wilderness looked back to Israel 's 40 years of testing in the
wilderness. They were called “the church in the wilderness” (Acts 7:38). His testing
also prophesied of the 40 Jubilees of what the body of Christ would yet have to
experience in the next 40 Jubilees, for they too were sent into a wilderness of their
own.

Why? To be “tested by the devil.” As the body of Christ, they would have to
experience the same type of testing as the Head had experienced.

The Church, however, has often reacted to this testing by taking up the sword
against “the devil,” that is, those perceived to be doing the work of the devil. They
did not understand that this was part of the test—to see how they would react to
Azazel.

There is the way of Peace or the way of War. Peace happens only when we
understand that God is sovereign and that He has brought us into the hands of
His “enemies” to try our hearts to see if we react with force or violence. The
overcomers put on the shoes of the gospel of peace.

As a whole, the Church failed miserably, even as Israel failed in the wilderness
under Moses. Few understood that it was God who had led them to places
where there was no water or no food to test them and to see if they would
complain through fear or rejoice through faith.

In the end, we either understand the sovereignty of God or we do not. We either
believe Jesus when He says He will never leave or forsake us, or we believe that
He does leave us and forsake us whenever something goes wrong. To have that
level of faith is to have peace on earth.

We can only establish the Kingdom and “peace on earth” when the peace of Christ
rules in our hearts (Col. 3:15) while Azazel tests our hearts in the wilderness.



Logabe
 

Episkopos

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May 17, 2011
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Let me explain what I am talking about so no one misunderstands what I am
saying.

A legion of angels gave the word of peace to the shepherds in Bethlehem. They
came to announce the birth of Him who was prophesied in the law. He was the
fulfillment of the two birds (Lev. 14) and the two goats (Lev. 16) as well as all of
the sacrifices and vessels of the tabernacle and temple.

As the first goat, He would be killed, so that His blood could be sprinkled on the
mercy seat in the temple in heaven (Heb. 9:7-12). This would COVER sin and
impute righteousness to us until such time as the work of the second goat could
be accomplished.

As the second goat, Jesus is doing—and will continue to do—His work in us
while we are in the wilderness (world) being “tempted of the devil.” The second
goat was led into the wilderness alive, and Jesus, too, was led by the Spirit into
the wilderness on the Day of Atonement when He was baptized by John. This
work is not finished until sin is REMOVED from us, for the purpose of the second
goat was to remove sin.

At the present time, we do not see sin removed from us. Though some may claim
perfection, I know myself well enough to know that I cannot make that claim. Even
so, I do not wallow around in guilt, because the first goat has covered my sin, and
righteousness has been imputed to me in spite of my actual condition.

In the interim, we are to present our bodies as living sacrifices (Rom. 12:1, 2). In the
laws of sacrifice, men were prohibited from bringing to God any animal that was
defective in any way (Lev. 22:18-24). Thus, if I were not imputed righteous, there
would be no way for me to fulfill this command to present my body as a living sacrifice
that is acceptable to God.

I can only do this as the result of the work of the first goat, which is Christ's death on
the cross, because otherwise, I would still be disqualified for my spiritual defects.

Jesus was led into the desert, or wilderness, to be “tempted of the devil” (Luke 4:2).
But Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit, who was the “fit man” prophesied in Lev. 16:21.

Both of the goats in Leviticus 16 represent Christ and are fulfilled in Him. However,
they also represent the body of Christ. Though we will never replace the Head, the
body itself is said to experience the sufferings of Christ. In 1 Peter 4:13 we read,

13 “but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ,
keep on rejoicing.

In Phil. 3:10 Paul says,

10 that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His
death.

It is clear, then, that Jesus (the Head) is not the only part of the body that is
identified with the first goat. We too have a part in this, though not to the extent
that Jesus had to suffer.

The Christ that is coming forth in the second goat's prophecy is the complete New
Man, consisting of both Head and Body. Neither is complete without the other,
and neither can function as a qualified priest without being complete. The law
disqualifies a priest for missing any parts to his body. We are priests of God,
qualified only because the body is complete and joined to the Head.

Once we understand these things, we can then look at the work of the second goat
in a more personal way. The second goat was said to be “for Azazel” (Lev. 16:8).
This is usually translated “scapegoat,” but it was literally a satyr, a “devil” figure.
While the first goat was “for Yahweh,” the second was “for the devil.”

The meaning of this is made plain when Jesus was baptized on the Day of
Atonement as the first goat while the priests were killing the goat at the temple in
Jerusalem. Then, when the priests sent the second goat into the wilderness “for
Azazel,” Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be “tempted of the devil.”

It does not mean that Jesus was being given to the devil in some nefarious way. It
means that in the divine plan, the devil was God's agent to test Jesus to see if
there was any wicked way in Him. Jesus passed all the tests and was later able to
say in John 14:30,

30 “the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

Jesus' testing in the wilderness looked back to Israel 's 40 years of testing in the
wilderness. They were called “the church in the wilderness” (Acts 7:38). His testing
also prophesied of the 40 Jubilees of what the body of Christ would yet have to
experience in the next 40 Jubilees, for they too were sent into a wilderness of their
own.

Why? To be “tested by the devil.” As the body of Christ, they would have to
experience the same type of testing as the Head had experienced.

The Church, however, has often reacted to this testing by taking up the sword
against “the devil,” that is, those perceived to be doing the work of the devil. They
did not understand that this was part of the test—to see how they would react to
Azazel.

There is the way of Peace or the way of War. Peace happens only when we
understand that God is sovereign and that He has brought us into the hands of
His “enemies” to try our hearts to see if we react with force or violence. The
overcomers put on the shoes of the gospel of peace.

As a whole, the Church failed miserably, even as Israel failed in the wilderness
under Moses. Few understood that it was God who had led them to places
where there was no water or no food to test them and to see if they would
complain through fear or rejoice through faith.

In the end, we either understand the sovereignty of God or we do not. We either
believe Jesus when He says He will never leave or forsake us, or we believe that
He does leave us and forsake us whenever something goes wrong. To have that
level of faith is to have peace on earth.

We can only establish the Kingdom and “peace on earth” when the peace of Christ
rules in our hearts (Col. 3:15) while Azazel tests our hearts in the wilderness.



Logabe

A very good explanation! I see what you are saying and see the parallels you have noted.

If Jesus was tested by Azazel in the wilderness...and passed the test, then the testing of Jesus is finished.

We have a choice between the two goats...like the people had a choice between the Jesus Son of God and Jesus Barabbas (son of the father)...most will choose Barabbas because they don't want to be sacrificed themselves. They refuse to lay down their lives. The true Son of God demands that we forsake all to follow Him....even our own lives. Barabbas makes no such claim....he's a survivor. So whoever claims to follow Jesus without laying down their lives is in fact following Jesus Barabbas...not Jesus Christ.

The time to lay down our lives is NOW. We will not be nurse-maided later for what we have refused to do today.

TODAY if you hear His voice...respond by laying down your life to be indwelt by the true Vine. God will not correct our choices. If we opt for Barabbas WE too will be as Azazel and cut-off from the Vine.
 

us2are1

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Sep 14, 2011
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No one on this earth is righteous in their sinful flesh. We don't overcome by the works of our sinful flesh. We overcome by faith in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

What about those who are truly the body of Christ? Doing His works by the power of His Spirit? Dwelling daily in His righteousness? Aren't they righteous because He is righteous?

1 Corinthians 2
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
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What about those who are truly the body of Christ? Doing His works by the power of His Spirit? Dwelling daily in His righteousness? Aren't they righteous because He is righteous?

1 Corinthians 2
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Does "self" or your "flesh" dwell in the righteousness of Christ?