What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

RLT63 said:

Maybe not your definition of a Trinitarian. I believe there is a Trinity.

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Reading Tertullian this evening, a question crossed my mind: What is the difference between “the Trinity” and “a Trinity”?

The answer: Orthodoxy.

Peterlag said:

You can't be two of something at the same time.

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"Soul is person", a practical example showing that John proclaims Jesus the Word is God in John 1:1.

Examine this statement "my soul is with my person, and my soul is person" which mirrors "the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). The concluding word "person" in the statement is a noun representing the class of things called persons, that is, a classification.

Examining "with", not only is my soul with my person, but my soul is classified as person. This applies to every person.

Similarly, the word "with" in John 1:1 shows that not only was the Word with God, but the word is classified as God. There is only one God (Isaiah 45:5), so the Word is God.

In case you missed it, "my soul is with my person" is two things at one time, so your statement is proved false.

Furthermore, and most importantly, GOD SAYS JESUS IS TWO OF SOMETHING AT THE SAME TIME as shown elsewhere in this thread.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

Peterlag said:

I cannot be a man and a horse at the same time.

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Nor can a horse become a horse-man, or you a man-horse.

Peterlag said:

I did not ask why Jesus came as a man. I asked why Jesus had to come as God.

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Your question is created by a fool that fails to understand that God is always God, so Jesus being God means that nothing can "make Jesus God" - the phrase which is core to your question "What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God".

You're question deceitfully starts with a non-sequitor because NO scripture states Jesus was "made". God says Jesus is God, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom" (Hebrews 1:8). THE WORD OF GOD DECLARES THAT JESUS IS TRULY MAN AND THAT JESUS IS TRULY GOD! You are a deceiver who thinks Jesus is not God, so you are a disbeliever preaching everlasting punishment unto yourself and your followers (Matthew 25:46).

Your improper "Jesus had to come as God" reframed into the Biblical "Jesus came as Man" (Hebrews 2:16-18) is important. The illuminating Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is truly God and Jesus is truly Man (Philippians 2:6-8).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

Aunty Jane said:

We all have to decide where to put our faith.....its all part of the free will that God gave to every one of us. Its a precious gift in so many ways.

I find it fascinating that we can all read the same scripture and all come to different conclusions....but God knows those who belong to him.
He tells us that he is the one who opens hearts and eyes to his truth. (John 6:65)

Friends.....? Never minded a good pillow fight. Its not my job to force agreement, so to each his own.....its no reason to be enemies.

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I find it helpful to remember that the Vatican is perfectly happy for us to read the CT but hates the TR and anything else related to the Reformation, and put to death anyone that possessed them. Kinda telling, dontcha think?

Aunty Jane said:

This has been posted before but it addresses the problem of the connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58....

According to my studies, God never said "I Am" was his name in Exodus 3:14.

At Exodus 3:14-15, when Moses asked God for his name, and from the Jewish Tanakh it reads....
"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר" (The Complete Jewish Bible)

Yahweh does not only mean "I AM" in John 8:58 because it has no connection whatsoever with Exodus 3:14-15.

Strongs renders "I Am" in John 8:58 as..."to be, to exist, to happen, to be present". So which is the correct rendering of that verse?
Strongs also says of εἰμί eimí; "the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):—am, have been, × it is I, was." So not just one meaning.

God's name was not a statement about his existence because he was the God of their forefathers, so they knew who he was.
His name means "I will be what I will be" and it was a statement about his intentions towards his people, once freed from Egyptian slavery.
"The Lord God is "יְהֹוָ֞ה"....Yahweh. This was a name that was to be held in reverence for all their generations, but they chose to refrain from uttering it. They never had God's sanction or command to do that.

So in answering a question about the past, Jesus answered in the past tense....."Before Abraham was born, I have been" or "I was".
And from Strongs Concordance, that is also a correct translation.

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Your entire argument is predicated on "I AM" as meaning "I WILL".

However, "tell the children of Israel the "I AM" ("HAYA") hath sent thee" incorporates the translations:

1. to exist, be in existence
   
   
2. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
   
   
3. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
   
   
4. to accompany, be with

We should expect that a God Who operates outside the bounds of time and space should refer to Himself as such - with infinite, limitless language. He is "from everlasting to everlasting".

Jesus said unless we believe "that I AM, ye shall die in your sins", the same "I AM" that sent Moses to the children of Israel.

Wrangler said:

Hardly a more illogical statement was ever made by anyone in the history of humanity.

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Never was there more a logical statement descriptive of the practices of the willfully ignorant - time and time again, what they can't twist or distort into unrecognizability, they simply pretend ain't there.

For instance, the Gospel prophet plainly says in an apocalyptic passage concerning the fiery appearance of Jesus which we all know to be at His Second Coming that those caught eating swine's flesh will be "consumed together" in flame - of course, those who believe in the pre-trib rapture myth are unbothered by this, but what does that say about the menu of those who believe the truth that the church is going to be here all the way up to the simultaneous glorious appearing of Jesus/rapture of the dead and living saints? Only solution is to ignore Isaiah.

Wrangler said:

You are clearly, desperately intent on reading into Scripture what is not there. If it was important for us to know he was God incarnate, why didn't he just come right out and say it - like he came right out and said he was the Messiah? Why is all the so called evidence vaguely worded and you have to read into it?

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You're clearly, desperately intent on ignoring what's plain to see: that Jesus wasn't merely claiming to be older than Abraham, because if He did, He would have said, "Before Abraham was, I WAS".

I love the fact that my Creator, my Everlasting Father, my Mighty God Jesus Christ said "I AM" and not "I WAS", to His own glory.

"For if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins".

Phoneman777 said:

I find it helpful to remember that the Vatican is perfectly happy for us to read the CT but hates the TR and anything else related to the Reformation, and put to death anyone that possessed them. Kinda telling, dontcha think?

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AFAIK, the Vatican forbade the reading of scripture by the common folk...period. Priests alone were permitted to read it.

The only way to effect the kind of control that the corrupt church leaders sought was to keep the masses in ignorance.....how else could they have introduced so many doctrines that are absent from scripture, but to tell their congregants that the Inquisition and hell awaited anyone who challenged the church’s authority on anything it taught. They didn’t need Jesus because they had the Pope. (A very poor substitute with a long line of very poor substitutes). :smlhmm:

Any images of Jesus somehow resembled the Roman Zeus.....or the dead man hanging from a cross....or a helpless baby in a manger....hardly the mighty King that Jesus became upon his coronation in heaven. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Not to mention the fact that God’s word forbade the making of images of any sort that were used in worship. (Exodus 20:4-6)

Mary became “the mother of God”...as if it was even possible for God to have a mother....

To me the Bible is the Bible, and I have taught from many different translations....all I needed was a concordance and an interlinear to clear up the errors in translation. It is God’s word after all, and God would not allow mere humans to tamper with its message. The RCC likes to take credit for the Bible, but I know that not a word of it was written by a Catholic or a Protestant.....Jews wrote every word from their perspective.....Jews understood Jesus’ teachings better than Christendom ever did. They translated the Bible according to their own ideas and grafted those ideas into scripture as if there was no question about what these things meant.

Aunty Jane said:

AFAIK, the Vatican forbade the reading of scripture by the common folk...period. Priests alone were permitted to read it.

The only way to effect the kind of control that the corrupt church leaders sought was to keep the masses in ignorance.....how else could they have introduced so many doctrines that are absent from scripture, but to tell their congregants that the Inquisition and hell awaited anyone who challenged the church’s authority on anything it taught. They didn’t need Jesus because they had the Pope. (A very poor substitute with a long line of very poor substitutes). :smlhmm:

Any images of Jesus somehow resembled the Roman Zeus.....or the dead man hanging from a cross....or a helpless baby in a manger....hardly the mighty King that Jesus became upon his coronation in heaven. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Not to mention the fact that God’s word forbade the making of images of any sort that were used in worship. (Exodus 20:4-6)

Mary became “the mother of God”...as if it was even possible for God to have a mother....

To me the Bible is the Bible, and I have taught from many different translations....all I needed was a concordance and an interlinear to clear up the errors in translation. It is God’s word after all, and God would not allow mere humans to tamper with its message. The RCC likes to take credit for the Bible, but I know that not a word of it was written by a Catholic or a Protestant.....Jews wrote every word from their perspective.....Jews understood Jesus’ teachings better than Christendom ever did. They translated the Bible according to their own ideas and grafted those ideas into scripture as if there was no question about what these things meant.

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"Then the (Reformation) Bible, that serpent which with head erect and eyes flashing as it trails upon the ground, shall be changed into a rod as soon as we are able to seize it. For THREE centuries past (from Luther until 19th century before the soon discovery of their "champion" - the CT), this cruel asp has left us no repose. You well know with what folds it intwines us and with what fangs it gnaws us."

(I think the Jesuits HATED the Textus Receptus LOL)

Peterlag said:

I will just respond to one of your verses just to keep it short. John 8:58 "I AM"

At the last super, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said literally, "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "Not I am." "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God.

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Your comparison is as foolish as your thread title/question is wickedly foolish in being non-sequitor!

Not a single Apostle says that he exists perpetually prior to Abraham in Matthew 26:20-25.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Peterlag said:

The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man.

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Jesus literally physically existed in Abraham's time because Jesus the Word of God was in the beginning - long before Abraham existed - for the Apostle wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2).

You wickedly change the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) into the word of Peterlag "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I was just God's thought" (Peterlag's heart thought).

You are an evil liar.

Peterlag said:

In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus' "I am" statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am." The Hebrew phrase in Exodus means "to be" or "to become." God was saying "I will be what I will be."

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The old debunked and worn out and evil "no I AM in Exodus 3:14" delusion is presented by you. You people do not understand Hebrew, then you deceive each other and you deceive yourself (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where your contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKh - the Hebrew Bible, and here is the full of Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

PETERLAG, YOU PUBLICLY DENY THE WORD OF GOD WHO SAYS "WHOEVER DENIES ME BEFORE MEN, I WILL ALSO DENY HIM BEFORE MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN" (MATTHEW 10:33).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

Kermos said:

See where your contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKh - the Hebrew Bible, and here is the full of Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

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Not so fast.....
Exodus 3:13-15 in the Complete Tanakh renders these verses....

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"


14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)" and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"


15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864
Are you going to tell Jews how to interpret their own scripture? Seriously?

All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

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Not necessarily so. I know its your favorite trumpet to blow, but its not correct.....it is completely out of harmony with everything Jesus said about himself.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:

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How about YOU look at these verses in the Complete Jewish Tanakh....?

YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you, and I will bless you, for to you and to your seed will I give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham, your father."

YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
"And the Lord said to Jacob, "Return to the land of your forefathers and to your birthplace, and I will be with you."

YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
"And He said, "For I will be with you, and this is the sign for you that it was I Who sent you. When you take the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."

YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
"So now, go! I will be with your mouth, and I will instruct you what you shall speak."

YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
"You shall speak to him, and you shall put the words into his mouth, and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and I will instruct you [both] what you shall do."

YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)
"And He commanded Joshua the son of Nun, and said: "Be strong and courageous! For you shall bring the children of Israel to the land that I have sworn to them, and I will be with you."

You keep barking up this tree when there is nothing to bark at.....you are mistaken and it is you who is trying to make the Bible say what Jesus never did.

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

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No, that is not what the Bible says at all......you are trying, like all trinitarians, to make Jesus into God....and you will grasp at straws to make it so.
These are two different scriptures, spoken in two different languages, and conveyed to people of different faiths and different beliefs....yet each claimed to worship the same God....the God and Father of Jesus Christ.....the one Jesus said was "the only true God". (John 17:3)

When Jesus said in John 14:28..."If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
Why is it not rendered "the Father is greater than I am"? Because that is what he meant.....do you see what would have happened if Jesus had said "I am" there? It would be saying that God is greater than God.

The Mounce Interlinear renders John 14:28....
If ei you loved agapaō me egō, you would an have rejoiced chairō, because hoti I am going poreuō to pros the ho Father patēr, for hoti the ho Father patēr is eimi greater megas than I egō."
In order to make English coherent, the translators had to add words to make it flow....do you see "I am" inserted there where there is no Greek to support it?

Here again in John 8:42 Jesus says....
"Jesus Iēsous said legō to them autos, · ho “ If ei · ho God theos were eimi your hymeis Father patēr, you would an love agapaō me egō, for gar I egō came exerchomai from ek · ho God theos and kai now I am here hēkō. I have erchomai not oude come erchomai on apo my emautou own , but alla he ekeinos sent apostellō me egō."

"I am" is inserted in the English text...and we see that "egō" can mean either, "I" or "me".....

Kermos said:

Your comparison is as foolish as your thread title/question is wickedly foolish in being non-sequitor!. . . . .
You are an evil liar.

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I don't think you would know a non-sequitor if you fell over one....you're like a broken record.

Who are you to call people "evil liars" when you yourself are promoting something Jesus never once said he was...... ?

Aunty Jane said:

...trying, like all trinitarians, TO MAKE Jesus into God....and you will grasp at straws to make it so

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Not so fast, as you put it - some of us simply believe ALL The Scriptures
(2Ti 3:16-17 Rule 5b of Bible study Rules), As Instructed, on this issue:

500 Plain And Clear Scriptures The LORD Jesus Christ Is Almighty God!

Grace, Peace, And JOY...

Jesus and the savages.

Peterlag said:

I cannot say I'm made up of blood so that's a person and I'm made up of skin so that's a person. I cannot be a man and a horse at the same time.

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A soul is a person. A person is a soul. Your convoluted confusion projects your denial of the soul.

Even worse, you seem to equate a horse with God.

"Soul is person", a practical example showing that John proclaims Jesus the Word is God in John 1:1.

Examine this statement "my soul is with my person, and my soul is person" which mirrors "the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). The concluding word "person" in the statement is a noun representing the class of things called persons, that is, a classification.

Examining "with", not only is my soul with my person, but my soul is classified as person. This applies to every person.

Similarly, the word "with" in John 1:1 shows that not only was the Word with God, but the word is classified as God. There is only one God (Isaiah 45:5), so the Word is God.

In case you missed it, "my soul is with my person" is two things at one time, so your statement is proved false.

Furthermore, and most importantly, GOD SAYS JESUS IS TWO OF SOMETHING AT THE SAME TIME as shown elsewhere in this thread.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!