The Pre-Trib Rapture

farouk said:

@Marilyn C Sorry; what does NJ stand for.....?

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Hi farouk,

Yes I should have written the words. NJ is the New Jerusalem.

Marilyn C said:

Hi farouk,

Yes I should have written the words. NJ is the New Jerusalem.

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@Marilyn C Thanks for the clarification.....

PS: @Marilyn C For me, it seems very significant that in 1 Cor. 11.26 the coming of the Lord Jesus is linked very specifically with the church.

This thread has indeed gotten a lot of posts...........

farouk said:

@Marilyn C Sorry; what does NJ stand for.....?

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New Jerusalem

marks said:

When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.

One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.

Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.

One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Much love!

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Read the book again.
After the 144,000 we immediately find:
9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16“They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-17
Is this a 3rd church of saints?

GISMYS_7 said:

The great tribulation is God's wrath against this sinful God rejecting world not His church(born-again believers)
1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Luke 21:36
Jesus says===“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

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Actually it's a judgment and Purification of the Earth, just like the flood, but with a greater remnant.

marks said:

Amen!


I don't understand your question.

Much love!

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Let me rephrase then, are there 3 churches of saints?

marks said:

I still don't understand what you are getting at. What are the 3?

Much love!

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Saints before the "rapture", Jewish saints after the "rapture," and Gentile saints from "all the nations" and out of the "great tribulation. "

marks said:

I don't remember, do you see the Sheep/Goats Judgment as a division of the survivors of the great tribulation? Or do you see it as a parable towards right living? Or as a retelling of the Great White Throne Judgment? Or some other way?

My understanding is that it's the division of the survivors of the great tribulation. Sorry for not giving a more direct answer, I want to make sure if we see these other things the way, to give better context to my answer to you.

Much love!

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I'm inclined to believe that Jesus was referring to His return and the "bema seat" judgment, as those that offend are removed and separated from the inheritance of the saints at the inauguration of the millennial kingdom. The reward of the saints is in governance over peoples in the millennium, the true treasures, as it were.

marks said:

I see in this that when Jesus returns, the "chosen" are gathered, then He takes His throne, after which the nations are gather and separated. I see these each as people alive on the earth when Jesus returns.

Much love!

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Sounds about right. Some equate the outer darkness with hell, but I don't.

marks said:

Continuing . . .

I think these "chosen" are the chosen nation, Israel, and the "nations" are the gentiles. So that Jesus gathers Israel to the promised land, and then gathers everyone else. Those who pass the test - how did you treat Jesus' brothers, Israel - are allowed into the millennial kingdom, those who don't, aren't.

Much love!

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It's as good an explanation as any and is consistent with chapter 14 of the book of Zechariah. From what commentary I've read, the chapter doesn't fit the theology of the Roman Church or of the Reformers. I like that chapter because it's orderly. I appreciate order and purpose, and I tend to see it in just about everything, though not always in the moment. Hindsight is kind of a gift.