Assurance of salvation

Angelina · Feb 9, 2012

Hi Butch5

I'm a bit confused. You say we don't die, but then say our bodies die. Genesis records that man is a body and a spirit which becomes a living soul.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. {of the dust...: Heb. dust of the ground}

It seems from this that each of these is what constitutes a man.

That is correct...man is made up of three distinct parts...but we are not our bodies. Our bodies are a temporary dwelling in which our soul and spirit are housed. Note 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2, 3, 4. Peter also likens our body to a tent. 2 Peter 1:14

Adam and Eve were created perfect and their body, soul and spirit were in unity with God.but when they sinned, a separation occurred between them and God and they became spiritually blind. Genesis 3:8, 10. John 3:3.
This can be proven today by the fact that man is no longer able to naturally commune with God as it was in the garden. They can however hear God. Romans 10:17.

To restore what had been lost in the garden, God sent his Son so that those who believe in him by faith may not only be washed from the original sin that bought about death to all mankind but he also enabled us to be included in the promise of eternal life. God's Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom just as God is Spirit. John 4:24

As I have quoted in my last post " If you are viewing life from the perspective of the flesh - being born, living and then dying at some set point in time...then you would probably not know what I am trying to express...life begins with salvation, being born again [of the Holy Spirit] and it continues onward in to the eternal....

Being born-again is basically being born of the Spirit. Romans 8:9, 10, 11. This is a free gift also given at/ after salvation, to those who believe. God does not give his Spirit out randomly because the Holy Spirit is a guarantee of our redemption and he knows whether a man has truly repented from the heart because he is omniscient. An indication of that inward change for us, can be seen in our daily walk [on-going sanctification process] and the bearing of much fruit.

You also said that our bodies bodies can't enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus was resurrected with a flesh and bone body, and Job said in my flesh I will see my redeemer in the last day. John said that we will be like Christ, again, his resurrected body was flesh and bone.

The bible says in 1 Corinthian 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There have only been two biblical accounts [not including Jesus] where men have bodily ascended into heaven...Enoch and Elijah.

Bless you!!! ^_^

Episkopos · Feb 9, 2012

Lively Stone said:
Exactly---the phrase isn't in the bible, because it was created by people who love to label and pigeonhole people with derogation. You can't lose your salvation, but you can renounce Christ by an act of your will. That is what an apostate is---a reprobate mind.

If you know Jesus Christ, you have His assurance that you are going to heaven. He wants you to have that assurance. It isn't boasting. It is our rightful home as adopted sons and daughters of the King.

Salvation is not in our hands but God's. He will decide who will end up where. The wise fear the Lord...the foolish are over-confident. Many who call themselves Christians today will be rejected into outer darkness. If God did not spare the natural branches, why would He spare the wild branches for doing the same things? Or are Gentiles better?

RichardBurger · Feb 9, 2012

Episkopos said:
Salvation is not in our hands but God's. He will decide who will end up where. The wise fear the Lord...the foolish are over-confident. Many who call themselves Christians today will be rejected into outer darkness. If God did not spare the natural branches, why would He spare the wild branches for doing the same things? Or are Gentiles better?

Under the Jewish law there was a sin offering that would be made for the people.

The sin that was not forgiven was the sin of "NOT BELIEVING GOD" when He said something. Jesus came saying He was the Messiah by wonders that He performed that were in prophesy but the Jews just couldn't believe Him.

It is the same today. Jesus sent Paul with a message of God's grace so that sinners could be saved by faith in what Jesus did on the cross. But people today just can't accept that as the word of God. They just don't want to believe it.

Jesus said He only came to the "lost sheep of Israel" but the religious today just can't believe Him.

James said his letter was to the Jews but the religious just refuse to believe him.

Lively Stone · Feb 9, 2012

Episkopos said:
Salvation is not in our hands but God's. He will decide who will end up where. The wise fear the Lord...the foolish are over-confident. Many who call themselves Christians today will be rejected into outer darkness. If God did not spare the natural branches, why would He spare the wild branches for doing the same things? Or are Gentiles better?

God has given us a choice. We can know Him and in knowing Him, we can know our eternal destiny. If a person isn't sure of their salvation, then he needs to make sure of it.

It is the foolish one who has no idea in what or in Whom he is putting his trust, but just the same continues on dabbling in religion, without developing an intimate relationship with God through the living Jesus Christ.

.

lawrance · Feb 9, 2012

So one could just say i believe in god and that's it, his salvation is set and is going to heaven regard less.
Maybe we could have a new bible called the 3 rd testament :wacko: with only one page.

lawrance · Feb 9, 2012

Episkopos said:
Salvation is not in our hands but God's. He will decide who will end up where. The wise fear the Lord...the foolish are over-confident. Many who call themselves Christians today will be rejected into outer darkness. If God did not spare the natural branches, why would He spare the wild branches for doing the same things? Or are Gentiles better?

Your right again, some people like to be lead down the garden path but it's through the narrow gate we are told is it not, but not the wide gate.
These people may be the goats on the left ? do this lot hide what God gave them ? i knew you were hard so i buried it, and hear it is back nothing lost nothing gained ?
This people honer me with their lips only ?
Did the disciples just sit around on their ass, no they did the work in Christ. and one fell out.

Lively Stone · Feb 10, 2012

MR ROSENBERGER said:
So one could just say i believe in god and that's it, his salvation is set and is going to heaven regard less.
Maybe we could have a new bible called the 3 rd testament :wacko: with only one page.

Where do you get that conclusion? We don't get away with just a mental assent to God. Salvation is in Jesus Christ, and we must believe in Him, in His death for our sin and His resurrection, andnnot only that, but we must make confession of it.

Romans 10:9-10
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

logabe · Feb 10, 2012

Episkopos said:
Salvation is not in our hands but God's. He will decide who will end up where. The wise fear the Lord...the foolish are over-confident. Many who call themselves Christians today will be rejected into outer darkness. If God did not spare the natural branches, why would He spare the wild branches for doing the same things? Or are Gentiles better?

Click to expand...

Paul tells us the plan of salvation very clearly. It was to be according to the New Covenant.
It was no longer by the old covenant, which had been conditional upon men's vow of
obedience (Exodus 19:5-8). Men's vows were so easily broken, and if God's salvation
blessings were conditional upon men's vows, or “decisions for Christ,” then they would lose
their salvation every time they broke their vow by committing a sin. I remember in my youth
having to “get saved” at the end of every day for many years. At that time I had no
comprehension that I was trying to be saved by means of the old covenant, seeking
righteousness by the works of the law.

So Paul tells us that the New Covenant (based on the unconditional covenant with
Abraham in Genesis 15:8-21) was purely by faith. Jeremiah 31:31-34 makes it clear that
this was to be a New Covenant that was not based upon the will of man, but of God.
There were to be no “if clauses” or conditions that men would have to fulfill. There were to
be no vows that men must live up to in order to obtain their salvation. There were no good
works or righteous standard that men had to reach before God would save them.

Of course, we should all make a conscious decision (or vow) to follow Jesus Christ. However,
we should understand that this is not what saves us—unless, of course, we are able to keep
our vow and never sin again. But I know of no one capable of such righteousness.

God initiates salvation by speaking the Word to man. This is the “seed of the Word” which is
able to conceive within our souls, if we hear the Word. Since faith comes by hearing the
Word (Romans 10:17), faith is man's natural response to the Word spoken by God. It is that
faith which characterizes our salvation, Paul says. Obedience to the Word (law) is the next
step, of course, since one will always act upon that which one truly believes.

Our fleshly weaknesses often hinder us from true or complete obedience, especially at first.
But as we grow in grace and spiritual strength, our works begin to match our faith in God. Yet
our present infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh are not able to make us lose our salvation,
because salvation was not obtained by the will of man, regardless of what some churches
may teach.

The most important thing to know here is that it is God (Jesus Christ) who initiates the
salvation—not man. We simply respond to His work. Our will is a response to His will. Our faith
is the response to His Word as He speaks to us. There is a shift from the old covenant religion
of salvation through the will of man to the New Covenant salvation through the will of God in
Christ.

So what does this all mean to you and me in our relationship with God? It means that our vow
of obedience and our intention to do what is right is good, but cannot save us unless we are
righteous enough to actually do as we have promised. Years ago, I tried going this route, only
to find that it was not in me to do.

What I am saying is that without faith, the work itself has no value to the Father. A man may build
a beautiful mansion, but if his father had told him to build a barn for the horses, he will not be
pleased with the mansion. If the son argues with his father that a mansion is really a much better
project than the barn, the father may just burn down the mansion to get his son's attention. The
son must learn to trust his father, to have faith that he knows what he is doing. Then as he is
obedient, he will begin to understand his father's reasons. He will begin to put on his father's mind.
He will come to know not only WHAT the father desires, but also WHY. Then he will move from
being a servant to being a son whom the father can talk to face to face as a friend (Exodus 33:11
and John 15:15).

It's a mind shift...

Logabe

lawrance · Feb 10, 2012

Lively Stone said:
Where do you get that conclusion? We don't get away with just a mental assent to God. Salvation is in Jesus Christ, and we must believe in Him, in His death for our sin and His resurrection, andnnot only that, but we must make confession of it.

Romans 10:9-10
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

I am not talking of you dear LS, but someone i know and he does not believe in confessing at all because he says he is saved he says he believes in jesus. but does he know him ?

Rom 10 is about a Spiritual work in us. faith with out the ( Spirit ) works is dead.

Lively Stone · Feb 10, 2012

MR ROSENBERGER said:
I am not talking of you dear LS, but someone i know and he does not believe in confessing at all because he says he is saved he says he believes in jesus. but does he know him ?

Rom 10 is about a Spiritual work in us. faith with out the ( Spirit ) works is dead.

Of course, saying he believes in Jesus is a confession of faith. If your freind isn't revealing any fruit of that confession, then you have to wonder.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

lawrance · Feb 10, 2012

I believed in jesus once to, but i did not know him, i did not even understand what the words Jesus Christ means really at all but there was some faith in it because of others believed in something about him.
So i knew and said with my mouth and had some faith, but i had to seek my self to come to comprehending who he really was and is.
There are people with little faith, Bible says.
Bible says that we shall know them by their works. ?

Lively Stone · Feb 10, 2012

MR ROSENBERGER said:
I believed in jesus once to, but i did not know him, i did not even understand what the words Jesus Christ means really at all but there was some faith in it because of others believed in something about him.
So i knew and said with my mouth and had some faith, but i had to seek my self to come to comprehending who he really was and is.
There are people with little faith, Bible says.
Bible says that we shall know them by their works. ?

I don't doubt that there are many new converts to Christ who do not fully comprehend what they have done, nor who they have given over their lives to, but that is where discipleship comes in.

Jesus didn't say, "Go and treach people to say the sinner's prayer." He said, "Go and make disciples." It is through good discipling that people who are mere babes in Christ will come to a fuller understanding of who Jesus Christ is and who they are serving.

If you note a weaker brother, perhaps it is your job to help the Lord in raisng him up higher in his faith. That is our job as disciples---as the Body of Christ in the world.

Butch5 · Feb 11, 2012

Lively Stone said:
I am 'really a Christian' and as such, I have the eternal security that God gives as Jesus has promised in John 3:16.

Hi Stone,

In John 3:16 John uses the present tense of believes. Literally it reads the one who "is" (present tense) believing shall not perish. It doesn't speak to whether that belief can be rejected.

Lively Stone · Feb 11, 2012

Butch5 said:
Hi Stone,

In John 3:16 John uses the present tense of believes. Literally it reads the one who "is" (present tense) believing shall not perish. It doesn't speak to whether that belief can be rejected.

No it doesn't. Should it?

Butch5 · Feb 11, 2012

Lively Stone said:
No it doesn't. Should it?

I thought that was what you were saying.

ttruscott · Feb 11, 2012

aspen said:
Assurance of salvation comes through a relationship with Christ not from a Book.

You can argue back and forth all day long about how the Bible says that God promises salvation or how God makes salvation contingent on other factors.
...

AMEN!

aspen said:
The fact is, if God knows you in the context of an intimate relationship - He provides you with the faith to believe that you are saved - sort of like a being in a good marriage. If He doesn't know you, no amount of Bible verses or air-tight theological arguments are going to convince God that He actually owes you salvation! I cannot believe how many Reformed Calvinists believe they are predestined for salvation - as if their understanding of how salvation works is going to bully God into letting them in. Bad marriages can take on a similar feel - in desperation, a partner who is being dumped may refer to the contractual agreement they both promised to follow - none of that matters of course, if the relationship is dead.

Oops, I must ask for clarification here:
- He provides you with the faith to believe that you are saved -

1. IF GOD provides the faith (or grace) to one person and not another, we have a problem if we see no good reason. On what basis does God chose one person (or angel: 1 Timothy 5:21 ) and not another?

If this cannot be answered it is a meaningless platitude; the fact that it is so used by many Christians not withstanding.

2. This (as it stands) completely destroys our free will which is the only way we can fulfill HIS reason for creating us, the loving relationship you aforementioned. Love cannot be coerced but must be freely chosen.

I know that Romans 7:14-25 destroys the notion that we have free will here on earth so that is one of the reasons I believe we must have had a pre-earth experience as spirits in Sheol where we had our true free will choices before we came to earth.

God bless...

Ted

Lively Stone · Feb 11, 2012

I know that Romans 7:14-25 destroys the notion that we have free will here on earth so that is one of the reasons I believe we must have had a pre-earth experience as spirits in Sheol where we had our true free will choices before we came to earth.

I take issue with your conclusions here. NOTHING in scripture destroys the teaching that we have complete freedom of choice in any matter, and especially this passage you have offered as an example. In that passage, Paul describes exactly what happens in salvation: we move from incapable of choosing righteousness to a spiritual condition where we do have a choice to sin---or not---because of Jesus Christ. Before I received Jesus Christ, I had no choice BUT to sin--I was addicted to sin! Now, I have a choice whether to sin or not. With the Holy Spirit's wisdom, strength and guidance now operating in me, I can overcome sin's pull.

Paul is not speaking as one who is still suffering these struggles, but as one who once did.

It is utter nonsense to promote a pre-existence.

Butch5 · Feb 11, 2012

Angelina said:
Hi Butch5

That is correct...man is made up of three distinct parts...but we are not our bodies. Our bodies are a temporary dwelling in which our soul and spirit are housed. Note 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2, 3, 4. Peter also likens our body to a tent. 2 Peter 1:14

How are our bodies temporary dwellings when they are going to raised in the resurrection? How can you say our bodies are not who we are when the Scriptures clearly say that God breathed into Adam? It was the body that He breathed into.

Adam and Eve were created perfect and their body, soul and spirit were in unity with God.but when they sinned, a separation occurred between them and God and they became spiritually blind. Genesis 3:8, 10. John 3:3.
This can be proven today by the fact that man is no longer able to naturally commune with God as it was in the garden. They can however hear God. Romans 10:17.

If you’re talking about spiritual death, I don’t buy that. Scripture doesn’t teach it

To restore what had been lost in the garden, God sent his Son so that those who believe in him by faith may not only be washed from the original sin that bought about death to all mankind but he also enabled us to be included in the promise of eternal life. God's Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom just as God is Spirit. John 4:24

According to the Scriptures God’s kingdom is a physical kingdom. Jesus told the Jews He was going to take the kingdom from them and give it to a nation bearing the fruits of it. The Jews had a real physical kingdom.

As I have quoted in my last post " If you are viewing life from the perspective of the flesh - being born, living and then dying at some set point in time...then you would probably not know what I am trying to express...life begins with salvation, being born again [of the Holy Spirit] and it continues onward in to the eternal....

I’m viewing it as the Scriptures do.

Being born-again is basically being born of the Spirit. Romans 8:9, 10, 11. This is a free gift also given at/ after salvation, to those who believe. God does not give his Spirit out randomly because the Holy Spirit is a guarantee of our redemption and he knows whether a man has truly repented from the heart because he is omniscient. An indication of that inward change for us, can be seen in our daily walk [on-going sanctification process] and the bearing of much fruit.

I can agree here.

The bible says in 1 Corinthian 15

Click to expand...

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There have only been two biblical accounts [not including Jesus] where men have bodily ascended into heaven...Enoch and Elijah.

Bless you!!!

Actually it will be fleshly bodies that inherit the kingdom, Jesus told his disciples, touch me, a spirit does not have flesh and bone like you see I have. John said that in the resurrection we will be like Christ, Christ was raised with a flesh and bone body. His body, however, has put on incorruption.

I don’t know that the argument can be made that Enoch and Elijah bodily ascended into heaven. The Scriptures simply say of Enoch that God took him. There is no reference to where he was taken. To say he went to heaven is to assume. Regarding Elijah it the Scriptures use the Greek word, “οὐρανόν” which is defined as, sky or heaven. Since Jesus said, no man has ascended into heaven; it seems more likely that Elijah was taken up into the sky.

Lively Stone · Feb 11, 2012

Elijah and Enoch are both in glorified flesh bodies in heaven, and were seen at the Transfiguration with Jesus. the scripture that people use to support the opposing view here, is misapplied:

John 3:13

New Living Translation (NLT)
[sup]13[/sup] No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man[sup][a][/sup] has come down from heaven.

Butch5 · Feb 11, 2012

Lively Stone said:
Elijah and Enoch are both in glorified flesh bodies in heaven, and were seen at the Transfiguration with Jesus. the scripture that people use to support the opposing view here, is misapplied:

John 3:13

New Living Translation (NLT)
[sup]13[/sup] No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man[sup][a][/sup] has come down from heaven.

How do they have glorified bodies? Do you believe the resurrection has taken place?

The word returned is not in the greek text.

BGT John 3:13 êáὶ ïὐäåὶò ἀíáâέâçêåí åἰò ôὸí ïὐñáíὸí åἰ ìὴ ὁ ἐê ôïῦ ïὐñáíïῦ êáôáâάò, ὁ õἱὸò ôïῦ ἀíèñώðïõ. (Joh 3:13 BGT)

Assurance of salvation

Prayer Warrior

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Active Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Butch5

New Member

Butch5

New Member

New Member

Butch5

New Member

Butch5

Similar threads