Difference between Catholic and Protestant.
One petitions a supposed sinless queen.
One petitions Christ the Lord Jesus.
One petitions a supposed sinless queen.
One petitions Christ the Lord Jesus.
Difference between Catholic and Protestant.
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Phoneman777
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Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 4:13 KJV are in perfect harmony - you're interpretation of Exodus 20 makes them DISHARMONIOUS. The Catholic church claims the power to change God's law and had eliminated the commandment forbidding image worship...and claims that she changed the Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day, "a change for which there is no Biblical authority", she boasts.
Therefore, since the Catholic church doesn't keep the same commandments the church in the beginning kept, it can't be the end time "remnant" church!
In my entire lifetime I have only ever heard ONE person say they hated the Catholic Church....and he was forced to go to a Catholic Church AND Catholic School, and wanted nothing to do with a Catholic Church, since the day he left home.
As far as hating Catholics, I have never heard a single person make that claim.
bbyrd009
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meh theyre pretty much both committed Cult of Sol Invictus, so if you too are obsessed with saving yourself and getting into heaven after you have died, what's the diff really?
Difference between Catholic and Protestant.
One gaslights.
One disagrees with gaslighting.
One gaslights.
One disagrees with gaslighting.
Dropship
Well-Known Member
You got it..
Jesus said "This is how you should pray- 'Our Father which art in heaven.."
So why do catholics disobey him by praying to his mum?
Careful, the naughty step again..
@Dropship ~
BOL has beat his copy and paste “pray and ask” teaching into the ground.
Scripture is clear; TO and FOR is the merit of understanding.
Matt 6:
[6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matt.26
[53] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
2Cor.13
[7] Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
Matt.5
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luke.6
[28] Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
John.17
[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
1Thes.5
[25] Brethren, pray for us.
Praying TO THE DEAD?
Deut 18:
[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[12] For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
BOL...you have been schooled!
Dropship
Well-Known Member
No offence to Mary and the "saints", they were probably nice guys and gals R.I.P., but as for actually praying to them, that's definitely a no-no..
"..Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" (Isaiah 8:19)
In fact it's akin to spiritualism and that crackpot seance stuff-
MEDIUM- "Is there anybody there?"
VOICE- "Yes this is Albert"
ALBERT'S WIDOW- "Oh Albert, what divine messages do you bring me from the other side?"
ALBERT- "Buy your brussel sprouts from Tesco, they're cheaper there: watch the milkman he's on the fiddle: and be careful walking home down Saxby street, a dog has done a heap in the middle of the pavement"
"..Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" (Isaiah 8:19)
In fact it's akin to spiritualism and that crackpot seance stuff-
MEDIUM- "Is there anybody there?"
VOICE- "Yes this is Albert"
ALBERT'S WIDOW- "Oh Albert, what divine messages do you bring me from the other side?"
ALBERT- "Buy your brussel sprouts from Tesco, they're cheaper there: watch the milkman he's on the fiddle: and be careful walking home down Saxby street, a dog has done a heap in the middle of the pavement"
And?
Catholics can make the Word of God Truth or a LIE.
And a Protestant simply has...God can NOT LIE <—winner
I see your point with mediums and wizards. And I also realize that Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah (Luke 9:28-30). And had Angels bearing him up (Psalms 91:11-12). Heck Jesus even spoke to Satan (Matthew 4:1-11). So I'm not sure that verse applies to visitations of the living angels. Noting that I don't think it wise for us children to talk to Satan.No offence to Mary and the "saints", they were probably nice guys and gals R.I.P., but as for actually praying to them, that's definitely a no-no..
"..Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" (Isaiah 8:19)
In fact it's akin to spiritualism and that crackpot seance stuff-
MEDIUM- "Is there anybody there?"
VOICE- "Yes this is Albert"
ALBERT'S WIDOW- "Oh Albert, what divine messages do you bring me from the other side?"
ALBERT- "Buy your brussel sprouts from Tesco, they're cheaper there: watch the milkman he's on the fiddle: and be careful walking home down Saxby street, a dog has done a heap in the middle of the pavement"
But I also recognize that I don't talk to anyone that is not present. So God being in spirit and all present, him I can talk to.
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Phoneman777
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Illuminator
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Again, you read into your own scriptures what isn't there. Praying to saints has nothing to do with consulting the dead. It's a straw man fallacy.No offence to Mary and the "saints", they were probably nice guys and gals R.I.P., but as for actually praying to them, that's definitely a no-no..
"..Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" (Isaiah 8:19)
In fact it's akin to spiritualism and that crackpot seance stuff-
2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 12116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.
I never cease to be amazed by anti-Catholic tunnel vision and irrationality. These people frequently miss the most elementary logical and exegetical distinctions, but then turn around and accuse Catholics of the stupidity that is actually descriptive of what they are doing, since their very response literally proves that they failed to grasp the argument made by the Catholic in the first place.
Recently I showed that this was very much the case with even the renowned anti-Catholic apologist James White (whose anti-Catholic polemics are supposedly so invulnerable and unanswerable), who (deliberately or not) distorted my arguments for invocation of saints and presented a pathetic caricature of my very argument to mock and "refute." He was guilty of basic, fundamental logical errors...
...But if an anti-Catholic insists on making himself look ridiculous (by no means an infrequent event), I can do little or nothing to stop it except to write posts like this exposing their manifest follies, in dim hopes that they will benefit from reflection on their mistakes and learn their lesson.
First of all, as a preliminary, let me explain again the logical structure of biblical arguments in favor of the communion of saints and invocation of the saints in heaven. I did some of this in my response to White because he often couldn't comprehend exactly what I was arguing for with a particular argument and often confused my method and purpose, in his rush to show how supposedly "unbiblical" my arguments were, and how allegedly (logically) circular:
1. We ought to pray for each other (much biblical proof).
2. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects (James 5:16-18).
3. Therefore it makes eminent sense to ask more righteous people to pray for us (implied in same passage).
4. Dead saints are more alive than we ourselves are (e.g., Mt 22:32).
5. Dead saints are aware of what happens on the earth (Heb 12:1 etc.), and indeed, are portrayed as praying for us in heaven (Rev 6:9-10).
6. Dead saints are exceptionally, if not wholly, righteous and holy, since they have been delivered from sin and are present with God (21:27, 22:14).
7. Therefore, it is perfectly sensible and wise to ask them to pray on our behalf to God.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Does God Forbid All Contact Whatsoever with the Dead?
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Matt. 5:44-45 – Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic
This is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word “martyr.”
1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”
[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]
2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2017/01/witnesses-hebrews-121-communion-saints.html
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic
This is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word “martyr.”
1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”
[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]
2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:
‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.
3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:
‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.
[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]
4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: [Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]
“In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”
So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2017/01/witnesses-hebrews-121-communion-saints.html
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Agree. That's the ministry of reconciliation spoken of elsewhere.
Moses and Elijah have received their reward, eternal life, and Good isn't going to bring them back here to die and suffer again. They're other explanations for the two witnesses.
Assuming there are others in heaven, other than Moses, Elijah, and Enoch. Assuming they are listening. And assuming it was ever in God's plan that we pray to the dead, (it wasn't) and that they should pay for us. Scripture tells us who to pray to. The Father in the name of Jesus.
Living saints, absolutely. Not from the living to the dead. See Isaiah8:19,20
Assumption again.
Huh?
Yes, a great cloud of witnesses. Angels... God's anointed messengers and ministers to mankind.
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Dropship
Well-Known Member
I don't think anybody here is anti-catholic, we're simply trying to be good samaritans by helping them see the illogicality of some cath beliefs like praying to dead humans, hell having a swing door, women not being good enough to be priests etc.
In fairness to caths, they're not the only ones with odd beliefs, that's why I'm non-denominational because I can't find any other organised religion or cult whose beliefs i feel comfortable with..
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
There is nothing "good samaritans" about your endless misrepresentations and insults. When presented with logical explanations of our authentic beliefs and practices, you don't reply to the content, you just heap more stupid insults.
That's strange, you seem comfortable regurgitating the same lies as the SDA's, the JW's and others, whose demonizing the historic Church is sourced from the lies of A. Hyslop. There is nothing "fair" about borrowing hateful theology from made-in-America cults; you do it automatically without thinking.In fairness to caths, they're not the only ones with odd beliefs, that's why I'm non-denominational because I can't find any other organised religion or cult whose beliefs i feel comfortable with..
You ignored post #536, offered no logical rebuttal to post 535
A stupid and absurd LIE.
Then Jesus was wrong by not ordaining women, according to you. Just like Jesus was wrong when He promised He would never leave us, according to you. But keep it up, your lies, falsehoods and misrepresentations are easy to refute. Not everybody ignores my posts the way you do.
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