Why we do NOT have Free Will !!

Vengle said:

The problem is that is not total freedom and therefore cannot mean God created us to have a gift of flat out free-will. For, that is only a relative freedom.

The horrid thing about the belief which says God created us to have a flat out free-will as though a gift of God is that it causes many to see God as responsible for all evil, especially when combined to the omniscience doctrine.

That is a terrible light to place God in by virtue of our ignorance.

The world believes something is either free or it is not free.

They therefore blame God for by omniscience knowing ahead that man would sin and then giving man the freedom to do it.

And that is not what the Bible really teaches.

That is what the twisting of men upon its interpretation have made it appear to teach.

If one would dig it out deeper in the scriptures they would find that the only freedom the Bible ever refers to our having is freedom from enslavement to sin that we may present ourselves as slaves to God.

That is the glorious freedom of the sons of God.

It freed us from our subjection to futility or vanity as Romans 8:20 speaks concerning. But it freed us from that so we could submit to God as slaves of God for His ways are our only true hope for happiness and fullness of life.

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Your definition of free will, meaning total freedom is impossible - even for God. We are defined by our definition. God does not have the free will to be evil, for example because He is Good.

aspen said:

Your definition of free will, meaning total freedom is impossible - even for God. We are defined by our definition. God does not have the free will to be evil, for example because He is Good.

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"Your definition of free will, meaning total freedom" :lol:

There you go again not paying attention to what I said.

I said that is how the world sees it and they do.

I know such a thing is impossible. That is my point. The free-will doctrine as the world understands it means to them that God gave us a gift of total freedom of will so that we would be free to use our will as we wish.

We must see how they reason so that we do not name things or speak of things in ways which unnecessarily stumble those who lack the insight and understanding we have.

That ought to not be too difficult for us to fix as the word free-will is not even taken from the Bible.

I have stated, I don’t believe in free will. There are too As many verses that state otherwise, and I’d like to share them with you:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This is a very powerful chapter in which God describes who he is. This particular verse says that God declared (not just knew, but actually “commanded” what the end would be. This verse shows that God not only knows what the end is, but that he also is the cause for that ending.

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.


This is another very powerful chapter and it is hard to pick out just one line from it to show that there is no “free will”. I picked this one out because it shows that we can be called transgressors from birth – even before we have done it or even thought about it. I realize the context of this chapter, and its talking about a nation and not an individual. I also realize that this verse says “God knew we would transgress” and thus the argument would be that “it doesn’t mean he caused it”. I urge you to read the whole chapter.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

I really can’t add anything to this. It says God possesses our reins. We are covered in our mother’s womb.

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Again, no real commentary needed. Next, I will not take up a lot of space by pasting each of theses verses, but they all speak of being predestined to be who we are: Rom 8:29, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11, John 10:27, John 10:28, 1 Cor 6:19, 1 Cor 6:20.

I do have to comment on the verses in John. I included them for a reason, and that is I have heard the objections to “anti-free will” arguments (I really couldn’t come up with a better term!), which usually go something like “We aren’t robots!” Well, that’s true, and we aren’t puppets either. We are, however sheep. Sheep do not have free will. I’m talking literal sheep for the time being. They don’t get to choose when they go to the pasture. They can choose if they graze on the north or south side, and how much they eat, but that’s about it. “Limited free will” is not free will. So with all kindness, I ask the question of those who like the “robot” analogy, “Are you one of his sheep?”



Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

The way we walk (meaning our journey through life) has been ordered. I understand that a sergeant can give a private an “order” and the private can choose to follow it (thus suggesting free will). However, the definition of ordered in this particular verse doesn’t suggest that. It is more along the lines of “confirmed”.

Next, I want to suggest to you if I can show a single case in Biblical history where God would not allow someone to make a decision through “mind control” (again, for lack of a better term), then it blows the whole theory of “free will”. I look at it as a “all or none” thing. In the USA, we like to say we are “free people”. I enjoy the freedoms we are given, but we Americans are all well aware that that isn’t the case, don’t we? Anyway…. Take a look at this verse, in light of that reasoning:


Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

This is a pretty amusing story, which most of you know. This is the account of the plagues of Egypt. Thinking about it, it makes perfect sense that Pharaoh should’ve let the Hebrews go after the first two or three plagues, if not sooner. If you study the account, Pharaoh did agree after each of the plagues to let them go, but never followed through on those promises. Clearly God hardened his heart. Pharaoh didn’t have free will to make what sounds like a good governmental decision. God said he was responsible for changing Pharaoh’s mind and causing him not to let them go. The Bible further comments on this In Romans 9:17.

I have only scratched the surface on the verses and accounts that show “no free will”. I haven’t spoken of Paul saying he was a prisoner of Christ, I haven’t said anything about Balaam, nor Jonah, nor of the accounts of Joseph (Jacob’s son) and his brothers.

I’m currently studying the works of John Calvin. Why? I have been called a Calvinist too many times not to. If I am “a Calvinist”, I should at least have read his works… By the way, so far I like em! I’m called this because of the OSAS doctrine (which I doubt Calvin ever did preach). The argument of there is no free will is often tied to that. I disagree with OSAS in a few areas.

If I am a Child of God, then the argument comes about (in light of this doctrine) that there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it… Thus, detractors say, “Well, that means you can do whatever you want!” Well yes, that’s true, sort of… The problem is that if I am predestined to be a Son, I am also predestined to act like a Son. God predestined my “screw ups”. True! He also predestined me to deal with it, and my Pastor (or worse, God himself) to pound on my spirit and natural life until I fix it! Yes, I may be predestined to be a King and a Priest, but so is the path. So are the hardships and the humbling I must do. Those are all in God’s will too! It’s not like a predestined king can kick up his feet with a big cigar in his mouth and relax. So while my fate and treasures are there, so is the walk through the refining fire. I’m predestined for that too.

I have a friend that has a very good analogy of free will. A dog when he is let out in a fenced back yard believes he is free. He’s free from the house! He can run all over the yard, he can poop where he wants to. He can choose to take a nap under the porch or chase any evil squirrel in the yard at his leisure. He thinks he has freedom! But he’s still in the fence.

He also likens it to a mosquito. God does not have to tell every mosquito, “Now today you are going to bite John, Sally and Joe.” No. He just programmed a mosquitoes do “be mosquitoes” and bite people. Now can put in a special order to bite one particular person and a particular time in history, but most of the time…. He just programmed them to be mosquitoes.

Thus is our limit on “free will”. We don’t go around thinking at lunch time “God ordained me to eat a ham sandwich at 12:03 today!” No, he just set our biological clock to be hungry every 4 or 5 hours. He don’t care about the ham sandwich we eat (unless you are still keeping the Law, of course). He can at certain times make you crave a Subway ham sandwich, which causes you to drive 3 miles out of your way. Though… And while driving out of your way there is a horrible accident that you would’ve been in if you didn’t have that craving. And you will never know that God prevented your death over a craving for a Subway sandwich!

Hey! Who are you to say God don’t work that way? Don’t you believe Romans 8:28?

In conclusion, I don’t believe in free will. Our ultimate end is predetermined by God. My belief (and I don’t have scripture to fully support it, but only case studies of scripture) is that God doesn’t care too much about small decisions. We are free to eat roast beef or Turkey. We can by a Honda or a Ford. We can go to the ball game or take in a movie. God don’t care! Unless it’s important and we won’t ever really know. That’s why I thank the Lord in all things, and specifically say I’m thanking him for all things in my prayers. But you and I are not where we are in our lives without God knowing it was going to happen, and without God planning it.

God created... everyone... with the ability to make a free will choice to believe on Him and serve Him, or not to.

This is why God will be most Just in sending the wicked to perish in the "lake of fire" along with Satan. He won't have to force them to go, for they will have made their own choice to perish by refusing Him through His Son Jesus Christ, our ONLY Mediator to The Father for us. It's as simple as that.

FHII said:

I have stated, I don’t believe in free will. There are too As many verses that state otherwise, and I’d like to share them with you:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This is a very powerful chapter in which God describes who he is. This particular verse says that God declared (not just knew, but actually “commanded” what the end would be. This verse shows that God not only knows what the end is, but that he also is the cause for that ending.

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.


This is another very powerful chapter and it is hard to pick out just one line from it to show that there is no “free will”. I picked this one out because it shows that we can be called transgressors from birth – even before we have done it or even thought about it. I realize the context of this chapter, and its talking about a nation and not an individual. I also realize that this verse says “God knew we would transgress” and thus the argument would be that “it doesn’t mean he caused it”. I urge you to read the whole chapter.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

I really can’t add anything to this. It says God possesses our reins. We are covered in our mother’s womb.

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Again, no real commentary needed. Next, I will not take up a lot of space by pasting each of theses verses, but they all speak of being predestined to be who we are: Rom 8:29, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11, John 10:27, John 10:28, 1 Cor 6:19, 1 Cor 6:20.

I do have to comment on the verses in John. I included them for a reason, and that is I have heard the objections to “anti-free will” arguments (I really couldn’t come up with a better term!), which usually go something like “We aren’t robots!” Well, that’s true, and we aren’t puppets either. We are, however sheep. Sheep do not have free will. I’m talking literal sheep for the time being. They don’t get to choose when they go to the pasture. They can choose if they graze on the north or south side, and how much they eat, but that’s about it. “Limited free will” is not free will. So with all kindness, I ask the question of those who like the “robot” analogy, “Are you one of his sheep?”



Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

The way we walk (meaning our journey through life) has been ordered. I understand that a sergeant can give a private an “order” and the private can choose to follow it (thus suggesting free will). However, the definition of ordered in this particular verse doesn’t suggest that. It is more along the lines of “confirmed”.

Next, I want to suggest to you if I can show a single case in Biblical history where God would not allow someone to make a decision through “mind control” (again, for lack of a better term), then it blows the whole theory of “free will”. I look at it as a “all or none” thing. In the USA, we like to say we are “free people”. I enjoy the freedoms we are given, but we Americans are all well aware that that isn’t the case, don’t we? Anyway…. Take a look at this verse, in light of that reasoning:


Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

This is a pretty amusing story, which most of you know. This is the account of the plagues of Egypt. Thinking about it, it makes perfect sense that Pharaoh should’ve let the Hebrews go after the first two or three plagues, if not sooner. If you study the account, Pharaoh did agree after each of the plagues to let them go, but never followed through on those promises. Clearly God hardened his heart. Pharaoh didn’t have free will to make what sounds like a good governmental decision. God said he was responsible for changing Pharaoh’s mind and causing him not to let them go. The Bible further comments on this In Romans 9:17.

I have only scratched the surface on the verses and accounts that show “no free will”. I haven’t spoken of Paul saying he was a prisoner of Christ, I haven’t said anything about Balaam, nor Jonah, nor of the accounts of Joseph (Jacob’s son) and his brothers.

I’m currently studying the works of John Calvin. Why? I have been called a Calvinist too many times not to. If I am “a Calvinist”, I should at least have read his works… By the way, so far I like em! I’m called this because of the OSAS doctrine (which I doubt Calvin ever did preach). The argument of there is no free will is often tied to that. I disagree with OSAS in a few areas.

If I am a Child of God, then the argument comes about (in light of this doctrine) that there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it… Thus, detractors say, “Well, that means you can do whatever you want!” Well yes, that’s true, sort of… The problem is that if I am predestined to be a Son, I am also predestined to act like a Son. God predestined my “screw ups”. True! He also predestined me to deal with it, and my Pastor (or worse, God himself) to pound on my spirit and natural life until I fix it! Yes, I may be predestined to be a King and a Priest, but so is the path. So are the hardships and the humbling I must do. Those are all in God’s will too! It’s not like a predestined king can kick up his feet with a big cigar in his mouth and relax. So while my fate and treasures are there, so is the walk through the refining fire. I’m predestined for that too.

I have a friend that has a very good analogy of free will. A dog when he is let out in a fenced back yard believes he is free. He’s free from the house! He can run all over the yard, he can poop where he wants to. He can choose to take a nap under the porch or chase any evil squirrel in the yard at his leisure. He thinks he has freedom! But he’s still in the fence.

He also likens it to a mosquito. God does not have to tell every mosquito, “Now today you are going to bite John, Sally and Joe.” No. He just programmed a mosquitoes do “be mosquitoes” and bite people. Now can put in a special order to bite one particular person and a particular time in history, but most of the time…. He just programmed them to be mosquitoes.

Thus is our limit on “free will”. We don’t go around thinking at lunch time “God ordained me to eat a ham sandwich at 12:03 today!” No, he just set our biological clock to be hungry every 4 or 5 hours. He don’t care about the ham sandwich we eat (unless you are still keeping the Law, of course). He can at certain times make you crave a Subway ham sandwich, which causes you to drive 3 miles out of your way. Though… And while driving out of your way there is a horrible accident that you would’ve been in if you didn’t have that craving. And you will never know that God prevented your death over a craving for a Subway sandwich!

Hey! Who are you to say God don’t work that way? Don’t you believe Romans 8:28?

In conclusion, I don’t believe in free will. Our ultimate end is predetermined by God. My belief (and I don’t have scripture to fully support it, but only case studies of scripture) is that God doesn’t care too much about small decisions. We are free to eat roast beef or Turkey. We can by a Honda or a Ford. We can go to the ball game or take in a movie. God don’t care! Unless it’s important and we won’t ever really know. That’s why I thank the Lord in all things, and specifically say I’m thanking him for all things in my prayers. But you and I are not where we are in our lives without God knowing it was going to happen, and without God planning it.

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I am not going to comment on all you said but for this one thing as you have said too much for me to address quickly:

Psalms 37:23 The steps of <H4703> a good man <H1397> are ordered <H3559> by the LORD <H3068>: and <H1870> he delighteth in <H2654> his way <H1870>.

<H3559> kuwn -- pronounced: koon --a primitive root; properly, to be erect (i.e. stand perpendicular); hence (causatively) to set up, in a great variety of applications, whether literal (establish, fix, prepare, apply), or figurative (appoint, render sure, proper or prosperous): KJV -- certain(-ty), confirm, direct, faithfulness, fashion, fasten, firm, be fitted, be fixed, frame, be meet, ordain, order, perfect, (make) preparation, prepare (self), provide, make provision, (be, make) ready, right, set (aright, fast, forth), be stable, (e-)stablish, stand, tarry, X very deed.

Your interpretation of Psalms 37:23 steps away from its context.
What that verse is saying is not predestination. It is telling us that God orders as in directs or makes perfect our steps if we are "a good man" "such as be blessed of him" so that we "shall inherit the earth".

Psalms 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.

[THERFORE] 27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.

In orther words, “Let God direct your steps.”

Free will is simply the ability to make a choice. That is it. As humans, we were created with the ability to make choices. Radical free will distorts the definition of free will. It is not possible to make a choice outside our definitions - we can make choices within our definitions.

Vengle - as usual, I have no idea what you are arguing for. You are so slippery that it is impossible to pin you down.

aspen said:

Free will is simply the ability to make a choice. That is it. As humans, we were created with the ability to make choices. Radical free will distorts the definition of free will. It is not possible to make a choice outside our definitions - we can make choices within our definitions.

Vengle - as usual, I have no idea what you are arguing for. You are so slippery that it is impossible to pin you down.

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I don’t ask your permission to speak nor is your understanding of what I say required.

Ponder on this paragraph by FHI from his post #23:
(If I am a Child of God, then the argument comes about (in light of this doctrine) that there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it… Thus, detractors say, “Well, that means you can do whatever you want!” Well yes, that’s true, sort of… The problem is that if I am predestined to be a Son, I am also predestined to act like a Son. God predestined my “screw ups”. True! He also predestined me to deal with it, and my Pastor (or worse, God himself) to pound on my spirit and natural life until I fix it! Yes, I may be predestined to be a King and a Priest, but so is the path. So are the hardships and the humbling I must do. Those are all in God’s will too! It’s not like a predestined king can kick up his feet with a big cigar in his mouth and relax. So while my fate and treasures are there, so is the walk through the refining fire. I’m predestined for that too.)

He believes in predestination (a pagan philosophy when applied too broadly). God does predetermine many things but he does not predetermine every act you will do as an individual, either good or bad. And I do not believe in teaching untruth while teaching truth. It is illusionary support and only creates other unforeseen problems for those that believe us.

Now ponder what FHI said here from that same post:
(Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

The way we walk (meaning our journey through life) has been ordered. I understand that a sergeant can give a private an “order” and the private can choose to follow it (thus suggesting free will). However, the definition of ordered in this particular verse doesn’t suggest that. It is more along the lines of “confirmed”.)

Thus I explained what I did in post #25

If I am slippery it is because you do not wash the grease off your hands before trying to handle me. This isn’t a greased pig contest you know.

Predestination is an interesting concept. We were all predestined......before the Fall. Unfortunately, our sin got in the way. Once Jesus came and died for us, we were all predestined once more, if we respond to God's love. Predestination is not pagan.

aspen said:

Predestination is an interesting concept. We were all predestined......before the Fall. Unfortunately, our sin got in the way. Once Jesus came and died for us, we were all predestined once more, if we respond to God's love. Predestination is not pagan.

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Start a thread on that topic and I will disprove strictly from the Bible what you have here said.

I can unquestionably prove that the Bible does not say the individual is foreordained but only the group called the church is foreordained.

I have the advantage over you guys having once believed everything you believe and having then fought to defend it as you yet do.

Because absolutely nothing you say takes me by surprise I understand it from your perspective even before you say it. So my responses are quick and accurate coming back to you as God has been exceedingly good to me and I am the product of His tutoring whether you wish to believe that or not.

The idea of predestination,,, Some are predestined to go to the fire, some are predestined to go to heaven.

This idea never came into play until Calvin. Early Christians didn't seem to take these verses the same way. Calvin introduced many heretic ideas that are now considered "gospel". Funny how it just keeps oozing and look at the debates.......

WhiteKnuckle said:

The idea of predestination,,, Some are predestined to go to the fire, some are predestined to go to heaven.

This idea never came into play until Calvin. Early Christians didn't seem to take these verses the same way. Calvin introduced many heretic ideas that are now considered "gospel". Funny how it just keeps oozing and look at the debates.......

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Amen

The effects of that belief do ooze !!!

One such example is how so many have failed to understand what Paul said at Galatians 1:15 KJV confusing it with certain words of David and unable to see that Paul himself fully explains that he meant separated from the womb of the mother, fleshly Jerusalem, the anti-typical Hagar he speaks about in chapter 4.

Even the ESV Bible writer obviously ignored it. :lol: And that kind of stuff sure does not help.

The context of chapter one shows clearly that he is talking about something which happened while he was advancing in Judaism and that it occurred while he was yet persecuting Christians and on the road to Damascus. He speaks of that same birth at 1 Corinthians 15: 3-10 KJV calling it, "as of one born out of due time." (1 Cor. 15:8, 9 KJV)

Yet because of their desire to believe that they were as an individual specially predestined of God they ignore seeing what Paul actually said.

And that is not at all the only place that belief causes them to ignore much.

Calvin's doctrine on predestination is definitely heresy.

But he was hardly the first to discuss the topic....Augustine took a stab at it, as well. Although, his doctrine is not very satisfying.

The doctrine of predestination has been emphasized too much in the past few hundred years - it really is a minor doctrine.

WhiteKnuckle said:

The idea of predestination,,, Some are predestined to go to the fire, some are predestined to go to heaven.

This idea never came into play until Calvin. Early Christians didn't seem to take these verses the same way. Calvin introduced many heretic ideas that are now considered "gospel". Funny how it just keeps oozing and look at the debates.......

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Explain this scripture.

Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,






.

And then read on......
For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. Romans 11:32

us2are1 said:

Explain this scripture.

Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,






.

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That verse talks about what God does after a man has shown himself to be an undesirable vessel.

He raised Pharaoh up even knowing Pharaoh was an obstinate man. He yet allowed Pharaoh to rule and to have great power even after Pharaoh had shown himself to be obstinate. He could have just gone ahead and punished Pharaoh immediately but instead held off so as to demonstrate his power over these defiant human rulers and thus show us we need not fear such rulers for they are nothing compared to God who is the true ruler in the kingdom of man and will always be.

Romans 9: 17 "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up (allowing him to rule and have power), that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

It is hard for men to see and hear what is really there when their eyes and ears are clogged with wrong beliefs such as predestination.

Thus they take phrases such as, "For this very purpose I have raised you", as though it means formed everything about Pharaoh right from the womb when it actually means "raised you up" in authority and power, allowing Pharaoh a throne.

Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

With what I here showed you, you should see that what Paul was essentially telling the Jewish rulers is that they ought to not think they are special just because God allowed them to have dominion and power for a short while.

It does not prove them to be any more special than was Pharaoh whom God also allowed dominion and power despite Pharaoh's true heart condition.

aspen said:

Calvin's doctrine on predestination is definitely heresy.

But he was hardly the first to discuss the topic....Augustine took a stab at it, as well. Although, his doctrine is not very satisfying.

The doctrine of predestination has been emphasized too much in the past few hundred years - it really is a minor doctrine.

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With all the verses I gave, I don't understand how you can call it a "minor doctrine".

WhiteKnuckle said:

The idea of predestination,,, Some are predestined to go to the fire, some are predestined to go to heaven.

This idea never came into play until Calvin. Early Christians didn't seem to take these verses the same way. Calvin introduced many heretic ideas that are now considered "gospel". Funny how it just keeps oozing and look at the debates.......

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Good point. In fact the ACTS of the apostles especially St. Paul would seem to indicate otherwise, that men could choose Christ. Did Paul not shake the dust off his feet regarding the preaching of Christ to the Jews? In the end many of them chose to disbelieve. Did Jesus Himself not instruct to do the same; shake the dust off and move on when proclaiming the grace of God? St. Augustine stated that grace elevated man to the point where he could choose. This notion is the bedrock upon which all evangelism is built.

If there is no choice, then all you've got to do is build a church, preach Jesus and they will come because they're predestined to do so. It doesn't work, as declining attendance figures prove. Therefore there must be some other mechanism involved - such as choice.

aspen said:

Your definition of free will, meaning total freedom is impossible - even for God. We are defined by our definition. God does not have the free will to be evil, for example because He is Good.

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I was kind of blind to the "even for God" part of your comment when i originally replied to your answer.

That is just shear contemptible foolishness. You know that God does not have to put up with us at all if He did not want to.

We would then not even be a part of the equation.

How dare you to say I say anything that would limit God's will to do as he chooses.

We are (even our existence) a product of His choice of love and merciful grace.

Recognizing what He tells us about how He is able to know things is not us setting limits on Him.

It is us listening to what He tells us.

These space time continuum theories straight out of science fiction movies like as 'Back to the Future' though surmised about by the scientific community are just children's stories and ought to not be mixed with the scriptures.

Vengle said:

I was kind of blind to the "even for God" part of your comment when i originally replied to your answer.

That is just shear contemptible foolishness. You know that God does not have to put up with us at all if He did not want to.

We would then not even be a part of the equation.

How dare you to say I say anything that would limit God's will to do as he chooses.

We are (even our existence) a product of His choice of love and merciful grace.

Recognizing what He tells us about how He is able to know things is not us setting limits on Him.

It is us listening to what He tells us.

These space time continuum theories straight out of science fiction movies like as 'Back to the Future' though surmised about by the scientific community are just children's stories and ought to not be mixed with the scriptures.

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Now I think you are misreading what I wrote. I am saying that God is limited by the definition of His character - I never said you believe that. God cannot sin - it is against His character - this is a basic truth. Now, if He decided to become evil, He could do so, but He could not remain Good and be sinful at the same time.

aspen said:

Now I think you are misreading what I wrote. I am saying that God is limited by the definition of His character - I never said you believe that. God cannot sin - it is against His character - this is a basic truth. Now, if He decided to become evil, He could do so, but He could not remain Good and be sinful at the same time.

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Thank you for showing patience with my misconception of your word.

That explanation greatly helped.

I appreciate that show of love and I agree with what you said then.

I now see that the value of saying that is that while we are given a will that could be used totally free, God expects that we will use it in image of His Character and so not use it just anyway we might choose to so as to violate that image.

That the accords with what Paul described for us in Romans chapter one:

Romans 1:19 ¶Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


It is kind of like my son saying to me, 'Dad, I need to be free to drive to school as it will be easier for me and I will be able to do better in school."

So I say, "Alright, I give you this car to drive yourself to school but I expect you to be responsible with it."

My son could take total freedom to himself and thus use that car in a way I had not authorized, in which case I would have the right to punish him for doing so.

And that is my main harp, God has the right to punish us because He did not give us our freedom of will for us to use it for sinning against His will.

In reality we have no right to choose to sin and the freedom we use to to sin is freedom we stretched out from the limited freedom that God actually gave us. The freedom to sin is an extension of freedom we seize to ourselves that God did not actually give us.