Why we do NOT have Free Will !!

veteran · Dec 11, 2011

Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(KJV)

That's one of the deepest Scriptures Paul wrote. It's included within events he gave of the time when God placed this present creation in a state of bondage, with it seeking release from the vanity it's been placed in.

Our Lord Jesus also covers this idea of a chosen group of servants in His prayer of John 17.

So there is... a group of predestinated elect that were chosen to serve in God's Salvation Plan for the rest of us who have believed. The Old Testament patriarchs and prophets were of such, as with Christ's Apostles. God told Jeremiah He knew him even before he was in his mother's womb.

With Jonah, another definite chosen one, God intervened with Jonah's free will; likewise with all... His chosen elect. Apostle Paul was a special example of a chosen elect, because he was persecuting Christ's Church when Christ Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus, i.e., direct intervention.

Because Calvinists clearly saw this distinction declared in God's Word, they simply went further and treated all... that would ever believe in the same way like those chosen elect. But we are not... all... in that same calling. Everyone... born flesh is called to believe, but only some are predestined as chosen to serve, while the rest MUST use their free will choice.

Christ Praying to The Father...

John 17:16-21
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.

Our Lord Jesus is speaking about His elect chosen ones there, i.e., His Apostles. They are not of this world (spiritually), even as Christ is not of this present world (but of the world to come).

18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

As The Father sent Jesus Christ into this world, so likewise did Christ send His Apostles into this world. That idea of being 'sent' is where the idea of a Apostle comes from. A sent one is... an Apostle, a chosen elect servant in The Gospel of Jesus Christ; i.e., a Gospel leadership structure on earth.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Only God can sactify Himself; thus Christ is revealing His Relationship as part of The Godhead here.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

Here's the distinction between His chosen elect, and those called to believe only. Christ said He prayed not for His chosen elect only, but also for all those which SHALL believe on Him through... their word, i.e., through the preaching of His elect chosen sent ones.

That defines TWO groups in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, an elect group of chosen 'sent' ones, and then all others who shall come to believe through their word (like the Gospel witness, Epistles they would write, their personal Testimony, etc.).

That verse is specifically about a second group that must use their free will choice to believe once 'hearing' The Gospel preached by Christ's chosen sent ones.

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

And the FINAL object? That both... groups might become One in both The Father and The Son.

aspen · Dec 11, 2011

Vengle said:
Thank you for showing patience with my misconception of your word.

That explanation greatly helped.

I appreciate that show of love and I agree with what you said then.

I now see that the value of saying that is that while we are given a will that could be used totally free, God expects that we will use it in image of His Character and so not use it just anyway we might choose to so as to violate that image.

That the accords with what Paul described for us in Romans chapter one:

Romans 1:19 ¶Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

It is kind of like my son saying to me, 'Dad, I need to be free to drive to school as it will be easier for me and I will be able to do better in school."

So I say, "Alright, I give you this car to drive yourself to school but I expect you to be responsible with it."

My son could take total freedom to himself and thus use that car in a way I had not authorized, in which case I would have the right to punish him for doing so.

And that is my main harp, God has the right to punish us because He did not give us our freedom of will for us to use it for sinning against His will.

In reality we have no right to choose to sin and the freedom we use to to sin is freedom we stretched out from the limited freedom that God actually gave us. The freedom to sin is an extension of freedom we seize to ourselves that God did not actually give us.

Yes! I agree - nicely stated.

WhiteKnuckle · Dec 12, 2011

veteran said:
Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(KJV)

That's one of the deepest Scriptures Paul wrote. It's included within events he gave of the time when God placed this present creation in a state of bondage, with it seeking release from the vanity it's been placed in.

Our Lord Jesus also covers this idea of a chosen group of servants in His prayer of John 17.

So there is... a group of predestinated elect that were chosen to serve in God's Salvation Plan for the rest of us who have believed. The Old Testament patriarchs and prophets were of such, as with Christ's Apostles. God told Jeremiah He knew him even before he was in his mother's womb.

With Jonah, another definite chosen one, God intervened with Jonah's free will; likewise with all... His chosen elect. Apostle Paul was a special example of a chosen elect, because he was persecuting Christ's Church when Christ Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus, i.e., direct intervention.

Because Calvinists clearly saw this distinction declared in God's Word, they simply went further and treated all... that would ever believe in the same way like those chosen elect. But we are not... all... in that same calling. Everyone... born flesh is called to believe, but only some are predestined as chosen to serve, while the rest MUST use their free will choice.

Christ Praying to The Father...

John 17:16-21
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.

Our Lord Jesus is speaking about His elect chosen ones there, i.e., His Apostles. They are not of this world (spiritually), even as Christ is not of this present world (but of the world to come).

18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

As The Father sent Jesus Christ into this world, so likewise did Christ send His Apostles into this world. That idea of being 'sent' is where the idea of a Apostle comes from. A sent one is... an Apostle, a chosen elect servant in The Gospel of Jesus Christ; i.e., a Gospel leadership structure on earth.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Only God can sactify Himself; thus Christ is revealing His Relationship as part of The Godhead here.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

Here's the distinction between His chosen elect, and those called to believe only. Christ said He prayed not for His chosen elect only, but also for all those which SHALL believe on Him through... their word, i.e., through the preaching of His elect chosen sent ones.

That defines TWO groups in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, an elect group of chosen 'sent' ones, and then all others who shall come to believe through their word (like the Gospel witness, Epistles they would write, their personal Testimony, etc.).

That verse is specifically about a second group that must use their free will choice to believe once 'hearing' The Gospel preached by Christ's chosen sent ones.

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

And the FINAL object? That both... groups might become One in both The Father and The Son.

I've been trying to put this into words but for some reason can't collect my thoughts. You did a great job here!

Vengle · Dec 13, 2011

WhiteKnuckle said:
I've been trying to put this into words but for some reason can't collect my thoughts. You did a great job here!

Yes it does appear that God actually preplanned in certain cases for a child to be born to fill a specific purpose on his behalf and thus personally took charge of shaping them in the womb as Jeremiah 1:5 says.

We have faith he did something even greater with Jesus in Mary's womb so that is not at all difficult to perceive of.

I have no doubt God can even actually begin shaping a child's mind and spiritual heart right in the womb.

But whether that is specifically predestination or just that God waited until the right time and then chose a particular seed to do that with I think is shown in that all were dead in Adam.

And again, it is really the Greek text itself which shows the group known as the elect is what were foreordained rather than the individual elect. Many disregard the Greek grammar rules to say it means the individuals there when Paul speaks of it.

Those individual elect had to be called and chosen. That in itself hints strongly that they were not as individuals predestined.

And when that fact is compared to a proper following of the Greek grammar for the places Paul speaks of the groups predestination in his letters it proves it fairly clear.

Also we find that Jesus is the only one said to be foreordained. 1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you"

And it is clear then that the group was also foreordained to be in him.

Not that it really would hurt to see it as Veteran has explained it. The important thing is merely that we do not fuel the wild beliefs which paint God as responsible for creating the wicked and their wickedness.

I should go get another post to add here:

Yes, Proverbs 16:4 is one that requires one has more of an abundance of God's wisdom to understand.

I will give you that much.

"hath made" <H6466> pa`al -- pronounced: paw-al' --a primitive root; to do or make (systematically and habitually), especially to practise: KJV -- commit, (evil-) do(-er), make(-r), ordain, work(-er).

When one confuses the phrase "hath made" as rendered in the KJV and many other Bible versions with the word "made" as in Genesis chapter one they do not have a prayer to understand what it says.

[Yong's Literal Translation] Proverbs 16:4 "All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself, And also the wicked worketh for a day of evil."

[Darby's Version] Proverbs 16:4 "Jehovah hath wrought everything on his own account, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

The word "made" in Genesis is <H6213> `asah

It has entirely different meaning.

God directs the steps of the righteous so as to help them find life.

He also helps the wicked reach the destination their hearts choose to take them, causing them to reap what they sow and perhaps to repent.

But if they will not repent, then he has wrought them to destruction.

I particularly like the Darby's Version rendering "hath wrought everything on his own account", as that cues us to compare the thought to what Paul said about Pharaoh in Romans chapter 9.

Romans 9:17-18 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

Episkopos · Dec 13, 2011

veteran said:
Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(KJV)

That's one of the deepest Scriptures Paul wrote. It's included within events he gave of the time when God placed this present creation in a state of bondage, with it seeking release from the vanity it's been placed in.

Our Lord Jesus also covers this idea of a chosen group of servants in His prayer of John 17.

So there is... a group of predestinated elect that were chosen to serve in God's Salvation Plan for the rest of us who have believed. The Old Testament patriarchs and prophets were of such, as with Christ's Apostles. God told Jeremiah He knew him even before he was in his mother's womb.

With Jonah, another definite chosen one, God intervened with Jonah's free will; likewise with all... His chosen elect. Apostle Paul was a special example of a chosen elect, because he was persecuting Christ's Church when Christ Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus, i.e., direct intervention.

Because Calvinists clearly saw this distinction declared in God's Word, they simply went further and treated all... that would ever believe in the same way like those chosen elect. But we are not... all... in that same calling. Everyone... born flesh is called to believe, but only some are predestined as chosen to serve, while the rest MUST use their free will choice.

Christ Praying to The Father...

John 17:16-21
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.

Our Lord Jesus is speaking about His elect chosen ones there, i.e., His Apostles. They are not of this world (spiritually), even as Christ is not of this present world (but of the world to come).

18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

As The Father sent Jesus Christ into this world, so likewise did Christ send His Apostles into this world. That idea of being 'sent' is where the idea of a Apostle comes from. A sent one is... an Apostle, a chosen elect servant in The Gospel of Jesus Christ; i.e., a Gospel leadership structure on earth.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Only God can sactify Himself; thus Christ is revealing His Relationship as part of The Godhead here.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

Here's the distinction between His chosen elect, and those called to believe only. Christ said He prayed not for His chosen elect only, but also for all those which SHALL believe on Him through... their word, i.e., through the preaching of His elect chosen sent ones.

That defines TWO groups in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, an elect group of chosen 'sent' ones, and then all others who shall come to believe through their word (like the Gospel witness, Epistles they would write, their personal Testimony, etc.).

That verse is specifically about a second group that must use their free will choice to believe once 'hearing' The Gospel preached by Christ's chosen sent ones.

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

And the FINAL object? That both... groups might become One in both The Father and The Son.

Very good!

Mat_10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Vengle · Dec 13, 2011

But even at Romans 8:28-30 the words you see that have been translated as "whom" are plural both times that occurs in verse 30.

The literal translation for that word with its inflection is "which ones".

And it refers to the group.

It can by the light of the context in verse 28 be stated,"them which" he did predestine. Or, "those which" he did predestine.

You violate the inflection throughout the verse by claiming it refers to the individual.

And that ought to not be surprising to you because everywhere else Paul speaks of it he uses the simplest of plural pronouns when he speaks of them. And anyone can recognize those plural pronouns as all they have to do is look up the pronoun in the dictionary and the dictionary tells you they are plural.

Here you have to know a bit more about inflection and the rules for relating words legally in the text.

FHII · Dec 13, 2011

veteran said:
With Jonah, another definite chosen one, God intervened with Jonah's free will; likewise with all... His chosen elect. Apostle Paul was a special example of a chosen elect, because he was persecuting Christ's Church when Christ Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus, i.e., direct intervention.

Because Calvinists clearly saw this distinction declared in God's Word, they simply went further and treated all... that would ever believe in the same way like those chosen elect. But we are not... all... in that same calling. Everyone... born flesh is called to believe, but only some are predestined as chosen to serve, while the rest MUST use their free will choice.

Christ Praying to The Father...

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

Here's the distinction between His chosen elect, and those called to believe only. Christ said He prayed not for His chosen elect only, but also for all those which SHALL believe on Him through... their word, i.e., through the preaching of His elect chosen sent ones.

That defines TWO groups in The Gospel of Jesus Christ, an elect group of chosen 'sent' ones, and then all others who shall come to believe through their word (like the Gospel witness, Epistles they would write, their personal Testimony, etc.).

That verse is specifically about a second group that must use their free will choice to believe once 'hearing' The Gospel preached by Christ's chosen sent ones.

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

And the FINAL object? That both... groups might become One in both The Father and The Son.

So again, we see that there isn't free will. God at any time reserves the perogative to intervene. Some didn't have free will, Veteran; you have implied that.

However, you assume this isn't the case for everyone except through what you believe the scriptures say. There is not a verse in John 17 nor anywhere else in the Gospels that says someone has free will that I know of. Your belief that there are two separate groups in John 17 is supported, but not the notion that one group is predestined and another has free will.

I can find several times that people (and I do believe I've listed them), or "groups" of people were predestined. It seems silly to believe only these groups are and it doesn't apply to all. If the Bible was speaking to them only, is it correct to say that the book of Romans was only to those Romans the letter was received by, and the book of Corinthians only to Corinthians?

Vengle · Dec 13, 2011

A servant is a slave and a slave can only have limited freedom of will for he lives to serve the will of his master.

That is not difficult to understand.

1 Corinthians 7:22 “For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.”

Romans 6:19-20 “I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.”

Romans 6:22 “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”

There is not one single place in the Bible where we are told that we were ever given a totally free will.

Produce it if you say that there is?

There is not. Even Adam was made guilty by taking such freedom to himself.

You have to be crazy to think that we are given freedom to sin when to sin means death and not only that the Bible plainly tells us that we become slaves to sin when we sin.

And it was Adam’s turning away his will from doing God’s will that made him guilty of sin.

It always is. So we must always be either a slave of God with life in view or a slave to sin with death in view.

prism · Dec 13, 2011

Not only do you have sin/and the weaknes of the flesh working against free will (Rom 7) but you also have the blinding work of satan (2Cor 4:4).

veteran · Dec 17, 2011

Vengle said:
But even at Romans 8:28-30 the words you see that have been translated as "whom" are plural both times that occurs in verse 30.

The literal translation for that word with its inflection is "which ones".

And it refers to the group.

It can by the light of the context in verse 28 be stated,"them which" he did predestine. Or, "those which" he did predestine.

You violate the inflection throughout the verse by claiming it refers to the individual.

And that ought to not be surprising to you because everywhere else Paul speaks of it he uses the simplest of plural pronouns when he speaks of them. And anyone can recognize those plural pronouns as all they have to do is look up the pronoun in the dictionary and the dictionary tells you they are plural.

Here you have to know a bit more about inflection and the rules for relating words legally in the text.

Apostle Paul included both groups when speaking in His Epistles about Christ's Salvation. And rightly so, since Christ defined in final all those who shall believe on Him becoming one group in Him and The Father per the John 17:21 verse. Yet in leading up to that 21st verse, He spotlighted a chosen elect which He Himself 'sent' into the world to first serve. And thus the evidence in The Gospel Books of Christ coming upon His Apostles and commanding them to follow Him, and they followed, asking no question. Can't get around that.

veteran · Dec 17, 2011

FHII said:
So again, we see that there isn't free will. God at any time reserves the perogative to intervene. Some didn't have free will, Veteran; you have implied that.

However, you assume this isn't the case for everyone except through what you believe the scriptures say. There is not a verse in John 17 nor anywhere else in the Gospels that says someone has free will that I know of. Your belief that there are two separate groups in John 17 is supported, but not the notion that one group is predestined and another has free will.

I can find several times that people (and I do believe I've listed them), or "groups" of people were predestined. It seems silly to believe only these groups are and it doesn't apply to all. If the Bible was speaking to them only, is it correct to say that the book of Romans was only to those Romans the letter was received by, and the book of Corinthians only to Corinthians?

When Christ said He 'sent' the first group into the world, and that they like Himself were NOT of the world, for the purpose of The Gospel to preach to others that would believe, that shows the idea of ownership. Christ ALREADY owned His sent Apostles.

John 17:5-6
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
(KJV)

John 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
(KJV)

John 17:10-12
10 And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(KJV)

That's about God's ownership of Christ's Apostles given to Christ Jesus for His Purpose of The Gospel.

John 17:20-21
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

Those of the "for them also which shall believe on Me" is about believers that would be the fruit of The Gospel preaching through Christ's Apostles. First group are chosen elect; second group MUST use their FREE WILL.

So affirmations against that aren't going to work.

FHII · Dec 17, 2011

veteran said:
Those of the "for them also which shall believe on Me" is about believers that would be the fruit of The Gospel preaching through Christ's Apostles. First group are chosen elect; second group MUST use their FREE WILL.

So affirmations against that aren't going to work.

The problem is you haven't produced a single verse that says they were chosen (thus have no free will) and everyone else wasn't chosen (and thus has to rely on their free will).

So there is Pharaoh, Jonah and the 12 Apostles. They didn't have free will. What of the Romans whom Paul wrote to?

Romans 8:29-31 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborne of many brethren. Moveover, who he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

So then, it is Pharaoh, Jonah the 12, Paul and the congregation at the Church of Rome who were predestined and didn't have free will. Everyone else has to rely on their free will.

Ok, but what about the Church at Ephesus?

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

So here's another predetermined group... I could go through the same thing to the Saints Peter wrote to, the Thesselonians and Timothy. SO everyone else except them had free will? They had the benefit of being hand picked before their birth, but no one else?

If so, these parts of the Bible and their messages don't apply to us, so which parts do? When is the Bible specifically talking to us, and not this elite group who God chose before the foundations of the world?

John 10:16 says Jesus had other sheep which would hear his voice. Clearly he's talking about the gentile church, but it wasn't said they would be talked to and it would be left up to their own free will. He said they shall hear my voice. Thus, they don't have free will either.

There are too many pockets of people in the Bible who were guided by the Holy Spirit who didn't have free will. In fact, everyone mentioned in the Bible didn't have free will, they were foreordained to what happened. If the Bible was written for us, then it also applies to us. If you had one verse that supported free will and your philosophy, no doubt you would've mentioned it.

veteran · Dec 17, 2011

FHII said:
The problem is you haven't produced a single verse that says they were chosen (thus have no free will) and everyone else wasn't chosen (and thus has to rely on their free will).

There's that false affirmation thing again, making a statement as fact when it is actual a blatant denial of the Scripture itself.

FHII · Dec 17, 2011

Well, prove it isn't a fact. Find a verse that says we have free will.... I showed you many that don't and have many more like 1 Cor 6:19-20 and 7:23. How am I who is giving you plenty of scripture, denying scripture? You haven't given any that actually support what you say.

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Why we do NOT have Free Will !!

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