Did the messengers lie about Jesus coming in the first century?

Charlie24 · Oct 3, 2022

ScottA said:
You are confusing the world with the earth. Jesus always did have the authority, He could have turned stones to bread or called down legions of angels. But the issue is not of this world. Yet He remains Mediator even in the world, until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

In His own words, Jesus said He had come "but only for the house of Israel", and then when all things had been fulfilled, He said "It is finished."

After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. John 19:28-30

When Christ said, "it is finished" what He came to do was finished, the redeeming of man.

When Christ came to Israel and offered them the Kingdom, they were to introduce their Messiah to the world, but they rejected Him. Then Christ turned to Paul and sent him to the Gentiles to introduce Christ to the world. The 11 apostles, when driven from Jerusalem with James already being killed, they followed Paul in taking the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Christ built His Church from these converts, to bear the responsibility of spreading the Gospel. But I have shown you, God is far from finished with His chosen people of Israel. Their glory is coming in the near future.

Jeremiah 31:1-9
"At the same time, saith the Lord, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

2 Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God.

7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

ScottA · Oct 3, 2022

MatthewG said:
Do you believe that Jesus would return to these people then in that age?

Back to the Original Post question:

"That age" is perhaps the wrong wording. Speaking to people living in that generation which He referred to as "this generation", Jesus said:

"I say to [you], hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Matthew 26:64

So...unless those people are still alive--most have been seriously WRONG for 2,000 years.

marks · Oct 3, 2022

MatthewG said:
Sure I do not mind one being recorded off another. Thing is that still doesn't discredit what Jesus stated.

What I'm saying is, Matthew and Mark each recorded one discourse given by Jesus, Luke recorded a different one, that included different prophecies.

Much love!

MatthewG · Oct 3, 2022

marks said:
What I'm saying is, Matthew and Mark each recorded one discourse given by Jesus, Luke recorded a different one, that included different prophecies.

Much love!

Okay. Are they all reliable or no?

Enoch111 · Oct 3, 2022

MatthewG said:
How does that make sense?

How does your OP make any sense? And how does the title of this thread make any sense? To even ask whether angels lied about anything is to ask silly questions.

The angels were simply telling apostles that just as Christ ascended bodily to Heaven, He would also descend bodily from Heaven. Which of course refers to the Second Coming of Christ to earth. This is a key doctrine of Scripture.

marks · Oct 3, 2022

MatthewG said:
Therefore I shouldn’t trust all of them just the most reliable?

Naturally that's not what I'm saying. When Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem leading to the scattering of the Jews, that is His prophecy recorded by Luke. When Jesus prophesied the abomination of desolation, and the great tribulation, leading to the gathering of the Jews, that prophecy was recorded by Matthew and Mark. Each are different prophecies of different things, each to be fulfilled in it's own right.

Much love!

MatthewG · Oct 3, 2022

ScottA said:
Back to the Original Post question:

"That age" is perhaps the wrong wording. Speaking to people living in that generation which He referred to as "this generation", Jesus said:

"I say to [you], hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Matthew 26:64

So...unless those people are still alive--most have been seriously WRONG for 2,000 years.

The age is actually appropriate to say. Jesus was born under the law. So he was living in a material based system. That is all done away now, since the destruction and wrapping up of that age. It does pertain to that generation though when Jesus was alive and walking around. We now live in the age of fulfillment where the Garden is restored and people walk around like Adam and Eve choosing to partake of the tree of life which once wasn’t accessible, or eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

MatthewG · Oct 3, 2022

Enoch111 said:
How does your OP make any sense? And how does the title of this thread make any sense? To even ask whether angels lied about anything is to ask silly questions.

The angels were simply telling apostles that just as Christ ascended bodily to Heaven, He would also descend bodily from Heaven. Which of course refers to the Second Coming of Christ to earth. This is a key doctrine of Scripture.

Thank you for sharing that information.

marks · Oct 3, 2022

Enoch111 said:
How does your OP make any sense? And how does the title of this thread make any sense? To even ask whether angels lied about anything is to ask silly questions.

The angels were simply telling apostles that just as Christ ascended bodily to Heaven, He would also descend bodily from Heaven. Which of course refers to the Second Coming of Christ to earth. This is a key doctrine of Scripture.

Well, it IS a "Complex Question", a logical fallacy, because it assumes the angels said Jesus was returning in the first century.

But you know that.

Much love!

Enoch111 · Oct 3, 2022

marks said:
Well, it IS a "Complex Question", a logical fallacy, because it assumes the angels said Jesus was returning in the first century.

But the words used by the angels were very carefully selected. Here is what was said: "...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven".

There is no indication as to whether He would return in the 1st century or much later. It is the manner of His coming which was stressed. Many today believe that Christ will not come physically (or bodily) and visibly back to earth. But the angels insisted that that is exactly how He would come. Just as He ascended in His glorious resurrection body, He will descend in that same body. Indeed the Mount of Olives will split in two when He sets foot on the earth.

ScottA · Oct 3, 2022

Charlie24 said:
When Christ said, "it is finished" what He came to do was finished, the redeeming of man.

When Christ came to Israel and offered them the Kingdom, they were to introduce their Messiah to the world, but they rejected Him. Then Christ turned to Paul and sent him to the Gentiles to introduce Christ to the world. The 11 apostles, when driven from Jerusalem with James already being killed, they followed Paul in taking the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Christ built His Church from these converts, to bear the responsibility of spreading the Gospel. But I have shown you, God is far from finished with His chosen people of Israel. Their glory is coming in the near future.

Jeremiah 31:1-9
"At the same time, saith the Lord, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

2 Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God.

7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

That passage does not speak of a "worldly" gathering again after the times of the gentiles.

But Jesus did clarify the issue that you have stumbled on. Referring rather to the resurrection, and not referring to the world, He said, "So the last will be first, and the first last." Matthew 20:16

As for Jeremiah 31:1-9, he was prophesying Israel's salvation--not of a worldly kingdom or paradise.

Enoch111 · Oct 3, 2022

MatthewG said:
We now live in the age of fulfillment where the Garden is restored and people walk around like Adam and Eve choosing to partake of the tree of life which once wasn’t accessible, or eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Is this some kind of flight of fancy or are you really serious?

MatthewG · Oct 3, 2022

Enoch111 said:
Is this some kind of flight of fancy or are you really serious?

dead serious

That is what I believe.

ScottA · Oct 3, 2022

MatthewG said:
The age is actually appropriate to say. Jesus was born under the law. So he was living in a material based system. That is all done away now, since the destruction and wrapping up of that age. It does pertain to that generation though when Jesus was alive and walking around. We now live in the age of fulfillment where the Garden is restored and people walk around like Adam and Eve choosing to partake of the tree of life which once wasn’t accessible, or eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Regardless, the point is...Jesus did NOT say "I am delaying my coming"...but many have said He is.

Such is the parable of the evil servant. Matthew 24:36-48

Charlie24 · Oct 3, 2022

ScottA said:
That passage does not speak of a "worldly" gathering again after the times of the gentiles.

But Jesus did clarify the issue that you have stumbled on. Referring rather to the resurrection, and not referring to the world, He said, "So the last will be first, and the first last." Matthew 20:16

As for Jeremiah 31:1-9, he was prophesying Israel's salvation--not of a worldly kingdom or paradise.

Isaiah 60:10-22
And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.

18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.

19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.

ScottA · Oct 3, 2022

Charlie24 said:
Isaiah 60:10-22
And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.

18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.

19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.

It is just as I have been saying: "in his time."

Charlie24 · Oct 3, 2022

ScottA said:
It is just as I have been saying: "in his time."

I would say that everything takes place according to His timing. Nothing surprises God.

I have often thought how boring it must be to know every single thing that will happen and when it happens.

From the sparrow falling and hairs of our heads numbered, to the return of Christ.

That's the way I see it anyway, some would love to have that knowledge, but not me.

MatthewG · Oct 3, 2022

Charlie24 said:
I would say that everything takes place according to His timing. Nothing surprises God.

I have often thought how boring it must be to know every single thing that will happen and when it happens.

From the sparrow falling and hairs of our heads numbered, to the return of Christ.

That's the way I see it anyway, some would love to have that knowledge, but not me.

it brings a lot of freedom not many desire to possess; it’s burdensome but thank God Jesus helps us with them and his burden is light. Everyone has to carry their own load.

MatthewG · Oct 3, 2022

ScottA said:
Regardless, the point is...Jesus did NOT say "I am delaying my coming"...but many have said He is.

Such is the parable of the evil servant. Matthew 24:36-48

yes he said not even this generation shall pass (40 years)

Charlie24 · Oct 3, 2022

MatthewG said:
yes he said not even this generation shall pass (40 years)

There needs to be some clarification on that statement by Christ.

He is speaking of the Great Tribulation. The generation that is alive during the time of which Christ is speaking will not pass away until all those things be fulfilled.

Christ is saying that when it starts, it will be quick, there will be no further delays.

Did the messengers lie about Jesus coming in the first century?

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