Difference between Catholic and Protestant.

Phoneman777 · Oct 3, 2022

theefaith said:
the four marks of the true church are
One:
Holy:
Catholic:
Apostolic!

God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who made Peter His personal representative and vicar! (Matt 16:18)

It was not Peter ("petros" - "small pebble") upon which the Christian church was founded, but Peter's "rock" of his confession (PETRA). If the church was founded on Peter, God help us. He denied our LORD three times, and even Paul had to go off on him in front of everybody for his foolishness.

theefaith said:
Adam
(Marriage covenant)

Noah
(Family covenant)

Abraham
(Tribal covenant)

Moses:
(National covenant)

Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)

New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18

Universal (Catholic)
World universal

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal) All men!

Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people. All men!

Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world. All men!

Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. All men!

Lk 2: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. All men!

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (All people universal) All men!

1 Tim 2:5 one mediator

Jn 10:16 One new covenant church

Only Jesus Christ has authority to found the church on Peter and the apostles! Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18
Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

All others are heretical sects the tradition of men!

Christ is king and established a kingdom!

Obedience to the apostles who have the jurisdictional authority to govern the church and administer the kingdom is obedience to Christ!

Kingdom

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

the holy Catholic Church

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus Christ is king!

We must submit and obey the king of kings!

And His authorized ministers that He Himself appointed!

Matt 16:18-19 & 28:28 eph 2:20 Jn 20:21-23

I see you mentioning a lot of things which all churches can claim as criteria for their status as "God's end time church" - however, there's only ONE church that fits ALL the identifying marks of Bible prophecy, and it ain't the Catholic church because she boasts about how she breaks God's commandments and teaches others to do so - the clearest of all Biblical criteria - making those in heaven refer to her as "the least" of us down here.

Phoneman777 · Oct 3, 2022

theefaith said:
rev 12:1 is Mary our queen and spiritual mother

In prophecy, a "woman" over and over is the symbol for God's people, NEVER an individual woman.

Do you really think "Mary" fled into the wilderness for 1,260 symbolic "days" which are literal years? No, but the church did, having fled from the face of the worst persecuting power the Christian church has ever faced in all of history: the Papacy.

Brakelite · Oct 3, 2022

Illuminator said:
There is one other verse that has a dragon and a woman in the same verse. Genesis 3:15. Your theology doesn't permit you to make the connections.

Of course it does. In prophetic imagery and symbolism, a woman represents the church. Throughout the OT in prophecy, a harlot or whore was used as a depiction for God's apostate people, His church at that time being literal Israel. In the NT that imagery and symbolism was continued throughout the Pauline letters and the book of Revelation, with the pure woman of Revelation 12 representative of the faithful church and the harlot of Revelation 18 the unfaithful. Your Jesuit friends in their Bible has deceived you into thinking it was the woman who crushes the serpent. They lied.
Genesis 3:15 DR.
[15]I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

KJV Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

ReChoired · Oct 3, 2022

BreadOfLife said:
...Had it NOT been for the Catholic Church – YOU would never even have HEARD of Jesus Christ . . .

Again, you are simply making an a priori assertion that is not founded in actual historical evidence. The OT ("oracles") was given to the "Jews" (Act. 7:38; Rom. 3:2), and it speaks of Jesus all throughout (Jesus JEHOVAH (Gen.49:18; Exo. 14:13; 2 Chr. 20:17; Jon. 2:9; Psa. 119:174 HOT) or JEHOVAH Immanuel (see Psa. 46:7,11 HOT)), without a single mention of 'catholic' in it, as all the OT testifies of Jesus (Jhn. 5:39).

Furthermore:

False 'rocks' of humanity (pebbles, sand):

“For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.” (Deut. 32:31)

“And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,” (Deut. 32:37)

“Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:” (Job 22:16)

“And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations;” (Jeremiah 51:26)

True ROCK:

“… the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink …” (Exo. 17:6)

“… speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock … drink” (Num. 20:8)

“… the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?” (Num. 20:10)

“… with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank …” (Num. 20:11)

“… who brought thee forth water out of the rock …” (Deut. 8:15)

“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor. 10:4)

“He [JEHOVAH God] is the Rock, his work is perfect … a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.” (Deut. 32:4)

“… God which made him, … the Rock of his salvation.” (Deut. 32:15)

“Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.” (Deut. 32:18)

“… their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?” (Deut. 32:30)

“For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.” (Deut. 32:31)

“There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.” (1 Samuel 2:2)

“And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;” (2 Sam. 22:2) (The God of my rock …” 2 Sam. 22:3)

“For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?” (2 Sam. 22:32)

“The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.” (2 Sam. 22:47)

“The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel …” (2 Sam. 23:3)

“… water for them out of the rock for their thirst …” (Neh. 9:15)

“The LORD is my rock …” (Psa. 18:2)

“For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?” (Psa. 18:31)

“The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.” (Psa. 18:46)

“… he shall set me up upon a rock.” (Psa. 27:5)

“… O LORD my rock …” (Psa. 28:1)

“Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.” (Psa. 31:2)

“For thou art my rock …” (Psa. 31:3)

“He … set my feet upon a rock …” (Psalms 40:2)

“I will say unto God my rock, …” (Psa. 42:9)

“… lead me to the rock that is higher than I.” (Psa. 61:2)

“He only is my rock and my salvation …” (Psalms 62:2)

“He only is my rock and my salvation …” (Psa. 62:6)

“In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.” (Psa. 62:7)

“… for thou art my rock …” (Psa. 71:3)

“… the rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink …” (Psa. 78:15)

“He brought streams also out of the rock …” (Psa. 78:16)

“… the rock, that the waters gushed out …” (Psa. 78:20)

“And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.” (Psa. 78:35)

“He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.” (Psa. 89:26)

“… the LORD is upright: he is my rock …” (Psa. 92:15)

“… my God is the rock of my refuge.” (Psa. 94:22)

“O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.” (Psa. 95:1)

“… the rock, and the waters gushed out …” (Psa. 105:41)

“… the rock into a standing water …” (Psa. 114:8)

“The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.” (Psa. 118:22)

“And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.” (Isa. 8:14)

“… thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength …” (Isa. 17:10)

“Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.” (Isa. 28:16)

“And a man shall be …, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land.” (Isa. 32:2)

“That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.” (Isa. 44:28)

“… the waters to flow out of the rock for them: he clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out.” (Isa. 48:21)

“… seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, …” (Isa. 51:1)

“Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, ...” (Dan. 2:34)

“… the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.” (Dan. 2:35)

“… the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands …” (Dan. 2:45)

“… these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:” (Mat. 7:24)

“And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.” (Mat. 7:25)

“And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Mat. 16:16) (context Mat. 16:18)

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Mat. 16:18) (context Mat. 16:16-17, God’s inspired words, “the Son of the living God” – is the “rock”, the word of God, the words of the Father which inspired Peter; Mat. 7:24)

“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?” (Mat. 21:42)

“And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:” (Mar. 12:10)

“He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: … for it was founded upon a rock.” (Luk. 6:48)

“Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,” (Luk. 14:29)

“And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?” (Luk. 20:17)

“This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.” (Act. 4:11)

“As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” (Rom. 9:33)

“… as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.” (1 Cor. 3:10)

“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 3:11)

“Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;” (1 Cor. 3:12)

“And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;” (Eph. 2:20)

“… Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.” (1 Pet. 2:6)

“Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,” (1 Pet. 2:7)

“And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word …” (1 Pet. 2:8)

God (Elohiym) and the word of God, is the rock of scripture, from beginning to ending.

ReChoired · Oct 3, 2022

ReChoired said:
Again, you are simply making an a priori assertion that is not founded in actual historical evidence. The OT ("oracles") was given to the "Jews" (Act. 7:38; Rom. 3:2), and it speaks of Jesus all throughout (Jesus JEHOVAH (Gen.49:18; Exo. 14:13; 2 Chr. 20:17; Jon. 2:9; Psa. 119:174 HOT) or JEHOVAH Immanuel (see Psa. 46:7,11 HOT)), without a single mention of 'catholic' in it, as all the OT testfies of Jesus (Jhn. 5:39). ...
God (Elohiym) and the word of God, is the rock of scripture, from beginning to ending.

QUESTION: ISN’T “PETER” ALWAYS LISTED FIRST AMONG THE DISCIPLES/APOSTLES, SHOWING THAT HE HAD THE PRIMACY, AND THAT HE ALONE WAS GIVEN THE “KEYS”?

No. While Peter is listed first in several instances (Mat. 10:2), he is not so listed first in all cases (Jhn. 1:40-41, 20:4; 1 Cor. 1:12, 3:22, 9:5), and Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 15:16; Gal. 2:8), not Peter (Gal. 2:11). Jesus, the “Master” and “Head” of the church (Eph. 5:23), the “Lord” (Mat. 10:24-25) gave the same authority and power to all 12 Apostles (Mat. 10:1-4; Luk. 9:1-3, “together”) and also to the ‘70’ (Luke 10:1,17), and afterward (to over 120 in the upper room, including women, Acts 2, & it was by the Holy Ghost, the actual infallible replacement, or substitute, or vicegerent of Christ on earth; Mat. 10:19-20; Jhn. 14:16-18,26; Act. 2:1-4,17-18,33; Rev. 5:6; Psa. 133:1-3; 1 Pet. 1:12; Joe. 2:28-29; Pro. 1:23). Peter himself states that Jesus is the “Chief Shepherd” (1 Pet. 5:3-4; also see 1 Pet. 2:21-25) and Jesus is the “rock” (Act. 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:6-8), as did Paul (Rom. 9:33; 1 Cor. 3:10-12; Eph. 2:20). Paul wrote to many churches, even to the one in “Rome”, & Peter’s name is not listed as the head of any church, not even as “Bishop”, “Elder”, etc (Rom. 1 & 16; Php. 1:1; 2 Tim. 4:22; Tit. 3:15), and neither did John (3 Jhn. 1:1). In all the epistles of Paul, Peter is never listed as chief of anything, but is barely mentioned (Gal. 2:6-9), and generally when he is mentioned, it is for his (Peter’s) mistakes (Gal. 2:11-14). The very lead ‘chair’ in the first Council of Jerusalem, was not “Peter”, but actually “James” (Act. 15:13-21). When Peter writes his Epistles (1 & 2 Peter, only 2, while Paul wrote 13, and John wrote 5 (Gospel, 3 Epistles and Revelation)), he does not claim any authority over any other “Elders” or “Apostles”. He simply writes as one equal to another, one brother to another, acknowledging the authority that those individual churches had in Christ Jesus, apart from himself (2 Pet. 1:1,3,10, 3:15-16). Peter said prophecy is better than his own eyewitness (2 Pet. 1:19-21), & all men are “grass” (1 Pet. 2:4), but the word of God is eternal (1 Pet. 1:25), and to obey God (Act. 5:29).

In Mat. 16:19, Jesus hadn’t given the “keys” to anyone yet (“I will (future tense) give”), and later we see in 2 Cor. 1:1, 2:10; Matthew 18:15-20; Luk. 11:49-52; John 20:18-23; Acts 1:13-15, that all the disciples and apostles have this same authority as a collective church body. The power of binding and loosing deals with receiving into the body of Christ or rejection from the body of Christ. The entire body together, and as individual “churches” have such authority. It is not 'bound' up in Peter alone, for even in Mat. 16:18, Jesus specifically said “church”. Peter is one individual within the greater church. In other words, all in the “church” have such “keys” given them, Mat. 16:20.

ReChoired · Oct 3, 2022

theefaith said:
rev 12:1 is Mary our queen and spiritual mother

In Rev. 12:1, the "woman" is pregnant in Heaven. In Rev. 12:3 the "dragon" is in Heaven too. Paul said (Gal. 4:26) our 'mother' "above" is New "Jerusalem", not 'Mary'.

Philip James · Oct 3, 2022

Phoneman777 said:
No, but the church did, having fled from the face of the worst persecuting power the Christian church has ever faced in all of history: the Papacy.

Please identify this community down through yhe centuries..

Pax et Bonum

Wrangler · Oct 3, 2022

Phoneman777 said:
It was not Peter ("petros" - "small pebble") upon which the Christian church was founded, but Peter's "rock" of his confession (PETRA).

Agreed!

IF the church was build on Peter, it'd be called Peterians. But we are called Christians, not by some fancy word play.

The idea that an eternal, all-powerful, all knowing God would found his church to reconcile the world to him, not on his divine son, whom he sent for this VERY purpose, but a temporal, weak and foolish man is too ridiculous to consider seriously.

atpollard · Oct 3, 2022

theefaith said:
thats cos is don’t mean salvation but redemption

No one is saved until the end Matt 24:13

That was just plain sad.
You have my sympathy.
I pray you meet Jesus some day and He eases your life of uncertainty.

amigo de christo · Oct 3, 2022

Philip James said:
Please identify this community down through yhe centuries..

Pax et Bonum

Those who faithfully follow the Lamb . Those are the church . Those are the community . They are the body of Christ .

atpollard · Oct 3, 2022

theefaith said:
Bible never says immersion it says God will sprinkle ez 36:25-27

“pants on fire”

farouk · Oct 3, 2022

atpollard said:
“pants on fire”

@atpollard I remember hot pants from the early 1970s (do you?) but I guess you're speaking doctrinally......

ReChoired · Oct 3, 2022

Philip James said:
Please identify this community down through yhe centuries..

Pax et Bonum

It's in Revelation:

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The church was not out in the open for a long time. It was chased into the wilderness, hiding from persecuting religio-political authorities. An example (type) of this, is seen directly in the book of Acts:

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Act 8:2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Act 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Act_11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Jesus said it would be so from type to anti-type:

Mat_23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Luk_21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Joh_16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

The true people of God fled into the "wilderness", were "scattered", "persecuted" 1,260 years (AD 538-AD 1798). They didn't have a seat of authority in Rome. Look up the code of Justinian, and implemented by the Franks under Clovis, and how it was applied at Padua by Frederick II, etc.

The history of the true church, as given in scripture, is one of being persecuted, scattered, in the wilderness, as Elijah was, as John the Baptist was, not given as a gloriously defined mega-structure as seated in the central "ID" brain of the prideful and unmerciful Roman element of Iron:

[1.] 1 Kings 17-21:29; 2 Kings 11:1-20 – Ahab (King), Jezebel (Woman/Wife, False religion), Athaliah (evil daughter), Apostates (false believers), Elijah (godly).

[2.] Matthew 14:1-12; Mark 6:14-29; Luke 3:19-20 – Herod (King), with Pilate, Herodias (Woman/Wife), Salome (evil daughter), Apostates (Ananias, Caiphas, Pharisees, Sadducees, false believers), John The Baptist (Elijah Messenger); Malachi 3:1; Isaiah 40:3-5; Matthew 11:14, 17:12; Mark 9:12-13; Luke 1:17]

[3.] Revelation 13:1-18, 14:6-12. 17:1-18 – Kings of the earth (King), Great Whore (Woman), Harlot Daughters (evil daughters), Apostates (“Lord, Lord” but do not the things Jesus said to do), Remnant (3 Angels Messages, Final Elijah Messenger)

How do we know? John the Apostle was not favoured in Rome, but persecuted, and according to historical account, placed in boiling oil, before being carted off to Patmos, where he wrote:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Read the book, The Two Republics, and see the actual history in Rome:

SDA - A T Jones - The Two Republics : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I could even cite "Catholic" histories, such as Lord Acton, for the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, etc. I could cite Llorente at the Inquisition. There are numerous authorities that nearly all accept, on such accounts, non-Christian, Protestant, Catholic, etc.

ReChoired · Oct 3, 2022

BreadOfLife said:
Nonsense.

Philip Schaff is "Nonsense."? (sic) I will remember that the next time you quote him.

That even 'catholic' 'scholars' admit that half (8) the letters (15) of 'Ignatius' are "spurious" ( CHURCH FATHERS: Spurious Epistles (Ignatius of Antioch) ) or forgeries is telling. What makes you think that the other half are not, based upon the known reasons as even Philip Schaff, etal. gave? Just because the Curia says so?

I didn't cite me. I cited Philip Schaff, etal. What you call "Nonsense." is not in argument with me. I don't accept any of the foolishness outside of scripture you (Romanism) call (selectively) authoritative.

atpollard · Oct 3, 2022

farouk said:
@atpollard I remember hot pants from the early 1970s (do you?) but I guess you're speaking doctrinally......

Personally, I think the Didache makes perfect sense … baptize (immerse) in running water when you can and pour the water when the preferred option is impractical.

I just get annoyed at emphatic statements about what the Bible says that are not true.

The “Truth-O-Meter” has 6 ratings:

TRUE – The statement is accurate and there’s nothing significant missing.

MOSTLY TRUE – The statement is accurate but needs clarification or additional information.

HALF TRUE – The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details or takes things out of context.

MOSTLY FALSE – The statement contains an element of truth but ignores critical facts that would give a different impression.

FALSE – The statement is not accurate.

PANTS ON FIRE – The statement is not accurate and makes a ridiculous claim.

farouk · Oct 3, 2022

atpollard said:
Personally, I think the Didache makes perfect sense … baptize (immerse) in running water when you can and pour the water when the preferred option is impractical.

I just get annoyed at emphatic statements about what the Bible says that are not true.

The “Truth-O-Meter” has 6 ratings:

TRUE – The statement is accurate and there’s nothing significant missing.

MOSTLY TRUE – The statement is accurate but needs clarification or additional information.

HALF TRUE – The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details or takes things out of context.

MOSTLY FALSE – The statement contains an element of truth but ignores critical facts that would give a different impression.

FALSE – The statement is not accurate.

PANTS ON FIRE – The statement is not accurate and makes a ridiculous claim.

Oh I see what you mean...................

(I do believe BAPTIZO means to dip...)

Brakelite · Oct 4, 2022

farouk said:
Oh I see what you mean...................

(I do believe BAPTIZO means to dip...)

In context it means bury.

Illuminator · Oct 4, 2022

Brakelite said:
I dunt know about the JWs, but there are enough adventists here who can confirm or deny your theories about them off you asked so you didn't need to embarrass yourself.
For the record. Adventists do not believe Christian Rome and pagan Rome are one and the same. Not at all. What we believe is that Catholic Rome inherited (therefore not the same) many of the pagan traditions of not only pagan Rome, but also Greece and Babylon. These traditions not found in scripture have been pinpointed many times on this forum, but one should suffice to prove my point. Sunday sacredness.

Then Jesus must be pagan because He rose on Sunday according to your absurd reasoning.

The pagan influence fallacy is in fact, a fallacy, and your fallacious reasoning has been exposed repeatedly.

Whenever one encounters a proposed example of pagan influence, one should demand that its existence be properly documented from primary sources or through reliable, scholarly secondary sources. After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, one should ask a number of questions:

Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not.
The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source. For example: “The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known” (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong.

Is the parallel dependent or independent?
Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views. For example, Fundamentalists have made much of the fact that Catholic art includes Madonna and Child images and that non-Christian art, all over the world, also frequently includes mother and child images. There is nothing sinister in this.

The fact is that, in every culture, there are mothers who hold their children! Sometimes this gets represented in art, including religious art, and it especially is used when a work of art is being done to show the motherhood of an individual. Mother-with child-images do not need to be explained by a theory of diffusion from a common, pagan religious source (such as Hislop’s suggestion that such images stem from representations of Semiramis holding Tammuz). One need look no further than the fact that mothers holding children is a universal feature of human experience and a convenient way for artists to represent motherhood.

Is the parallel antecedent or consequent?
Even if there is a pagan parallel that is causally related to a non-pagan counterpart, this does not establish which gave rise to the other. It may be that the pagan parallel is a late borrowing from a non-pagan source. Frequently, the pagan sources we have are so late that they have been shaped in reaction to Jewish and Christian ideas.

Sometimes it is possible to tell that pagans have been borrowing from non-pagans. Other times, it cannot be discerned who is borrowing from whom (or, indeed, if anyone is borrowing from anyone). For example: The ideas expressed in the Norse Elder Edda about the end and regeneration of the world were probably influenced by the teachings of Christians with whom the Norse had been in contact for centuries (H. A. Guerber, The Norsemen, 339f).

Is the parallel treated positively, neutrally, or negatively?
Even if there is a pagan parallel to a non-pagan counterpart, that does not mean that the item or concept was enthusiastically or uncritically accepted by non-pagans. One must ask how they regarded it. Did they regard it as something positive, neutral, or negative?

For example: Circumcision and the symbol of the cross might be termed “neutral” Jewish and Christian counterparts to pagan parallels. It is quite likely that the early Hebrews first encountered the idea of circumcision among neighboring non-Jewish peoples, but that does not mean they regarded it as a religiously good thing for non-Jews to do. Circumcision was regarded as a religiously good thing only for Jews because for them it symbolized a special covenant with the one true God (Gen. 17). The Hebrew scriptures are silent in a religious appraisal of non-Jewish circumcision.

Similarly, the early Christians who adopted the cross as a symbol did not do so because it was a pagan religious symbol (the pagan cultures which use it as a symbol, notably in East Asia and the Americas, had no influence on the early Christians). The cross was used as a Christian symbol because Christ died on a cross. Christians did not adopt it because it was a pagan symbol they liked and wanted to copy.

Examples of negative parallels are often found in Genesis. For instance, the Flood narrative (Gen. 6-9) has parallels to pagan flood stories, but is written so that it refutes ideas in them. Thus Genesis attributes the flood to human sin (6:5-7), not overpopulation, as Atrahasis’ Epic and the Greek poem Cypria did. The presence of flood stories in cultures around the world does not undermine the validity of the biblical narrative, but lends it more credence.

Criticism, refutation, and replacement are also the principles behind modern holidays being celebrated to a limited extent around the same time as former pagan holidays. In actuality, reports of Christian holidays coinciding with pagan ones are often inaccurate (Christmas does not occur on Saturnalia, for example). However, to the extent the phenomenon occurs at all, Christian holidays were introduced to provide a wholesome, non-pagan alternative celebration, which thus critiques and rejects the pagan holiday.

This is the same process that leads Fundamentalists who are offended at the (inaccurately alleged) pagan derivation of Halloween to introduce alternative “Reformation Day” celebrations for their children. (This modern Protestant holiday is based on the fact that the Reformation began when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany, on October 31, 1517.) Another Fundamentalist substitution for Halloween has been “harvest festivals” that celebrate the season of autumn and the gathering of crops. These Fundamentalist substitutions are no more “pagan” than the celebrations of days or seasons that may have been introduced by earlier Christians.

Historical truth prevails
Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism “pagan” fail. To make a charge of paganism stick, one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item.

In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices.
Is Catholicism Pagan?

Illuminator · Oct 4, 2022

ReChoired said:
It's in Revelation:

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The church was not out in the open for a long time. It was chased into the wilderness, hiding from persecuting religio-political authorities. An example (type) of this, is seen directly in the book of Acts:

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Act 8:2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Act 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Act_11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Jesus said it would be so from type to anti-type:

Mat_23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Luk_21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Joh_16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

The true people of God fled into the "wilderness", were "scattered", "persecuted" 1,260 years (AD 538-AD 1798). They didn't have a seat of authority in Rome. Look up the code of Justinian, and implemented by the Franks under Clovis, and how it was applied at Padua by Frederick II, etc.

The history of the true church, as given in scripture, is one of being persecuted, scattered, in the wilderness, as Elijah was, as John the Baptist was, not given as a gloriously defined mega-structure as seated in the central "ID" brain of the prideful and unmerciful Roman element of Iron:

[1.] 1 Kings 17-21:29; 2 Kings 11:1-20 – Ahab (King), Jezebel (Woman/Wife, False religion), Athaliah (evil daughter), Apostates (false believers), Elijah (godly).

[2.] Matthew 14:1-12; Mark 6:14-29; Luke 3:19-20 – Herod (King), with Pilate, Herodias (Woman/Wife), Salome (evil daughter), Apostates (Ananias, Caiphas, Pharisees, Sadducees, false believers), John The Baptist (Elijah Messenger); Malachi 3:1; Isaiah 40:3-5; Matthew 11:14, 17:12; Mark 9:12-13; Luke 1:17]

[3.] Revelation 13:1-18, 14:6-12. 17:1-18 – Kings of the earth (King), Great Whore (Woman), Harlot Daughters (evil daughters), Apostates (“Lord, Lord” but do not the things Jesus said to do), Remnant (3 Angels Messages, Final Elijah Messenger)

How do we know? John the Apostle was not favoured in Rome, but persecuted, and according to historical account, placed in boiling oil, before being carted off to Patmos, where he wrote:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Read the book, The Two Republics, and see the actual history in Rome:

SDA - A T Jones - The Two Republics : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I could even cite "Catholic" histories, such as Lord Acton, for the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, etc. I could cite Llorente at the Inquisition. There are numerous authorities that nearly all accept, on such accounts, non-Christian, Protestant, Catholic, etc.

Can you identify ONE "true believer" by name, who was persecuted in the 2nd or 3rd century?
The first 39 (+1) popes were martyred by pagan Romans, a fact never mentioned in any of your SDA references. Why is that? This takes us to the beginning of the 3rd century. I'm being generous with a wide time frame. Surely you must be able to identify by name, ONE "true believer" in the post-biblical era, seeing as you talk so much about persecuted Christians in the early church.

Brakelite · Oct 4, 2022

BreadOfLife said:
Had it NOT been for the Catholic Church – YOU would never even have HEARD of Jesus Christ . .

Nonsense. The entire east Asian continent was evangelized by Christians that had no association with the church in Rome, had copies of scriptures untainted by Catholic "orthodoxy", and converting pagan heathens from idolatry and wickedness to faith in the righteousness of Christ.

Difference between Catholic and Protestant.

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