What and when is the rapture Part 2

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Timtofly

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I’m talking about revelation 16 and yes the outcome in chapters 17 and 18 is the defeat of Babylon the great not the beast.

So sorry to put it this way but please answer these questions yes or no.

Is Revelation 16 the only chapter in the bible that mentions Armageddon?

Does chapter 16 mention Jesus yes or no?

Does chapter 16 mention the destruction of Babylon the great?

Does chapter 17 show who destroys Babylon the great?

Does chapter 19 mention Babylon the great?

Does chapter 19 mention Armageddon?

Does chapter 19 mention Jesus?

Does chapter 19 show Jesus defeat the beast?

Thus they are not the same battle they are different with different opponents and different outcomes.
They all happen in a 3 day time frame, and if you cannot see that as the ultimate end of Satan's 42 months in Revelation 13, there is nothing more to say. The 7 vials and chapters 16, 17, 18, and 19 bring an abrupt and final end to Satan's 42 months. The 42 months that interrupted the week of the 7th Trumpet celebration. Daniel 9:27 is a week of days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:5-7 points that out.

Jesus' name does not have to be mentioned in every single verse of the Bible to give you the right to make a pointless point. God's Word became flesh. Jesus is the Word of God. Every verse is about Jesus. Obviously some verse more than others. All ten kingdoms are gathered by God in the 6th vial of God's Wrath to be destroyed at Armageddon by Jesus as the Lamb. That is the only battle that ends Satan's 42 month Babylonian kingdom. At that point all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will have returned to dust, and the Millennium Kingdom of the Lamb will start. Evening and morning being the first day, Isaiah 65:17 will kick in over night, and a newly created heaven and earth will be seen at sunrise.
 

Marty fox

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They all happen in a 3 day time frame, and if you cannot see that as the ultimate end of Satan's 42 months in Revelation 13, there is nothing more to say. The 7 vials and chapters 16, 17, 18, and 19 bring an abrupt and final end to Satan's 42 months. The 42 months that interrupted the week of the 7th Trumpet celebration. Daniel 9:27 is a week of days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:5-7 points that out.

Jesus' name does not have to be mentioned in every single verse of the Bible to give you the right to make a pointless point. God's Word became flesh. Jesus is the Word of God. Every verse is about Jesus. Obviously some verse more than others. All ten kingdoms are gathered by God in the 6th vial of God's Wrath to be destroyed at Armageddon by Jesus as the Lamb. That is the only battle that ends Satan's 42 month Babylonian kingdom. At that point all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will have returned to dust, and the Millennium Kingdom of the Lamb will start. Evening and morning being the first day, Isaiah 65:17 will kick in over night, and a newly created heaven and earth will be seen at sunrise.

If you agree with scripture why did you avoid the yes or no questions? Why not answer them?

I asked you direct questions and you reply with your views about something else altogether.

Where did you get 3 days from?

If Babylon is satans kingdom why does the beast destroy it?

It’s God who has the beast destroy her.
 
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Taken

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There are two main teachings by Paul on the rapture,the first one is:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

There is also no mention of a tribulation upon the earth or a persecution upon the saints after these events. Paul tells us that the rapture is only for changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven. Paul also says that this happens at the last trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Back to

Summary

I believe that this study shows us that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s little season at the 7th trumpet right before Jesus destroys the earth. So lets spread the word now because there is no chance after the rapture as some people believe there is. They believe that the rapture will be the proof that Jesus is real and convince there unsaved friends who Jesus is.

Disagree. Examine your study and conclusion.
Those “IN” Jesus and Those “IN” Christ are NOT the SAME people.
ONLY those “IN” Christ are (redeemed BY Christ)...called RAPTURED.

Background common known facts;
* all men experience tribulation, hardships, men again men.
* Tribulation send down from Heaven is Gods works, and called Great Tribulation.

* human men ARE naturally Born of Water.
* No man IS Saved, IS Born Again...UNTIL AFTER a BODILY DEATH.

* Men WHO BELIEVE...God is “WITH” that man.
* Men CAN STOP BELIEVING...God will thereafter NOT be “WITH” him.
* Men CAN AGAIN BELIEVE...God will be “WITH” that man.
^^^ THAT IS NOT having “RECEIVED” salvation.

* A man WHO BELIEVES....AND Physically Bodily DIES BELIEVING...THEN Becomes SAVED...He is called “IN JESUS”...
His body buried, His soul risen to heaven, his spirit quickened risen to heaven........IS THIS MAN RAPTURED? No. THIS man SHALL BE BODILY RAISED/Resurrected, at the LAST Trump.
1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

* A man WHO BELIEVES...AND Bodily DIES...CRUCIFIED “WITH” Christ Jesus......IS a man WHO...”IS” Saved, “IS” Quickened, “IS” “IN” Christ, Christ’s Spirit “IS” “IN” that man.......AND The Lords SERVANT, Angel, SHALL sound “A” Trump (not called “THE LAST TRUMP), SHALL CALL UP, that man, TO HIM in the clouds (lower heavens).
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Rapture) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Men ‘IN’ Jesus...are men Believing the Word of God.
Should they believe “IN” Jesus on the day they die...
God shall resurrect their bodies AFTER Christ’s millennial reign.
Should they be bodily alive, in the end of days, YES they will experience potions of Gods Great Tribulation....BECAUSE THEY NEVER chose to give their BODY unto Death, crucified WITH Christ, thus were NOT “IN” Christ...shall be a Believer BODILY killed, and THEN SAVED.

Men “IN” Christ....are Men Believing the Word of God....AND Given their Body unto DEATH (crucified)......THUS SAVED and QUICKENED THEN.
THEY are called UP to the Lord, BEFORE Gods Great Tribulation Begins.

Rapture, applies to MEN IN Christ, already:
Bodily dead, soul saved, spirit quickened, body washed, body sanctified, MADE a New creature, bodily kept with Christ, prepared for ANY day, the Trump sounds and the Lord calls them UP ABOVE the face of the earth......
BECAUSE.......THEY ARE NOT appointed to WRATH...
** They RAISED UP Above the Earth, to the Clouds **
Followed by the Wrath of the Lamb, the devils wrath, Wrath of God UPON the Earth...
 

Davy

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....
Jesus says here that when he comes he will reward us and give to each person according to what they have done. Jesus does this on the judgment day in Revelation chapter 20. Jesus also says that he is the beginning and the end, Jesus made the earth in the beginning and will come at the end. I believe that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s release right before he is cast into hell. The 1000 years is not what most people think. The bible does not say that the 1000 years is a time of peace or on the earth because Satan is bound from doing any evil. There is no mention Jesus being on the earth during the 1000 years in the book of Revelation. I believe that we are in the 1000 years now, and possibly in the time of Satan’ release. The 1000 year reign and the 1000 year binding start, and end, at different times in Revelation 20. The binding starts in verse 2 and ends in verse 7. The reign starts in verse 4 and ends in verse 11 & 12 verse 5 tells us this. The 1000 year reign ends after Satan is released defeated and cast into hell. Satan is only bound by deceiving the nations because of the message of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Everything you said prior to the above paragraph is very Biblical. Both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 point to the "caught up" event happening on the 7th Trumpet. But those are not the only Scriptures that point to when that "caught up" event happens. Thus your theory about when the 1,000 years of Rev.20 happens is just a theory, and you did not prove it Biblically.

What you are pushing are ideas of men's Amillennialist doctrines which do not believe in the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect that is written in Revelation 20.

Isaiah 24 with the kings of the earth being locked in the pit prison at the end of this world, and visited after many days, is a direct reference to Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth.

Zechariah 14:16 forward about the leftover nations that came up against Jerusalem being made to go up to Jerusalem and worship The KING from year to year, and keep the feast of tabernacles, is another proof of the 1,000 reign of Christ and His elect per Revelation 20.

The Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture about those in Christ having the right to enter into the holy city and have right to the Tree of Life, while the wicked are outside the gates of the holy city, is further proof of Christ's 1,000 years reign over the wicked after His future return.

Ezekiel 44 even makes a distinction between those of Israel that erred when Israel went astray not being able to approach Christ in that future time of His Millennial reign. It shows only Christ's elect, the Zadok (means 'the righteous', and is applied spiritually for those in Christ that will be able to approach Jesus in that time, and serve Him at His table). That chapter also remarks how there will be those that will stand in judgment during that future period, showing they are still unsaved, but subject still to the "lake of fire".

In 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, Apostle Paul covered 4 different Greek words about the changes required to put on immortality through Jesus Christ. Paul revealed that the wicked will also... be changed on the last day of this world too, but their souls will not have put on immortality through Jesus. The way Revelation 20 reveals this is with the declaration of the "second death" existing throughout that whole 1,000 years period. Only those of the 1st resurrection will not be subject to the "second death", we are told. That supports the Ezekiel 44 idea of the wicked still existing in that future time, and made to 'stand in judgment' throughout that 1,000 years reign by Christ and His Zadok Christian elect.

Even in 1 Corinthians 5, with the Church member there that was having sexual intercourse with his own mother, and Paul rebuked those leaders of that Church, and said to cast out that sinner to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved in the 'day of Christ', that also is a pointer to the unsaved going through Christ's future 1,000 years reign with His elect with standing in judgment.

One of the jobs of Christ's elect Zadok for that future 1,000 years is to teach God's people the difference between the holy and profane, the unclean and the clean. So that future 1,000 years period will... be necessary for many believers even, before God brings in His new heavens and a new earth:

Ezek 44:23-25
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.


24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.


25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
KJV


Furthermore, the Ezekiel 39 thru 47 Chapters are all... future 1,000 years Chapters. They reveal Christ's Millennial sanctuary in the holy land, and even God's River of the Waters of Life emitting out from that sanctuary house, and with the Tree of Life existing on either side of that River. That River is the same River shown flowing out of God's Garden of Eden to feed four other rivers upon the earth, in Adam's day, and two of those rivers (Euphrates and Tigris) still exist on earth to this day. That shows God's Eden and that River was originally upon this earth.

Thus the Ezekiel 47 Chapter is giving us a picture of the return of God's River on this earth, which is another way to 'know' that is only about the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign. It also well supports the Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture of the wicked still existing in that time when the Tree of Life is manifest inside the gates of the holy city. It also supports what Revelation 21 teaches that shows God's new heavens and a new earth has not yet come in that time of the future 1,000 years period, because after that period there is to be no more temple (no literal sanctuary per Revelation 21:22).
 

Marty fox

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Everything you said prior to the above paragraph is very Biblical. Both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 point to the "caught up" event happening on the 7th Trumpet. But those are not the only Scriptures that point to when that "caught up" event happens. Thus your theory about when the 1,000 years of Rev.20 happens is just a theory, and you did not prove it Biblically.

What you are pushing are ideas of men's Amillennialist doctrines which do not believe in the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect that is written in Revelation 20.

Isaiah 24 with the kings of the earth being locked in the pit prison at the end of this world, and visited after many days, is a direct reference to Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth.

Zechariah 14:16 forward about the leftover nations that came up against Jerusalem being made to go up to Jerusalem and worship The KING from year to year, and keep the feast of tabernacles, is another proof of the 1,000 reign of Christ and His elect per Revelation 20.

The Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture about those in Christ having the right to enter into the holy city and have right to the Tree of Life, while the wicked are outside the gates of the holy city, is further proof of Christ's 1,000 years reign over the wicked after His future return.

Ezekiel 44 even makes a distinction between those of Israel that erred when Israel went astray not being able to approach Christ in that future time of His Millennial reign. It shows only Christ's elect, the Zadok (means 'the righteous', and is applied spiritually for those in Christ that will be able to approach Jesus in that time, and serve Him at His table). That chapter also remarks how there will be those that will stand in judgment during that future period, showing they are still unsaved, but subject still to the "lake of fire".

In 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, Apostle Paul covered 4 different Greek words about the changes required to put on immortality through Jesus Christ. Paul revealed that the wicked will also... be changed on the last day of this world too, but their souls will not have put on immortality through Jesus. The way Revelation 20 reveals this is with the declaration of the "second death" existing throughout that whole 1,000 years period. Only those of the 1st resurrection will not be subject to the "second death", we are told. That supports the Ezekiel 44 idea of the wicked still existing in that future time, and made to 'stand in judgment' throughout that 1,000 years reign by Christ and His Zadok Christian elect.

Even in 1 Corinthians 5, with the Church member there that was having sexual intercourse with his own mother, and Paul rebuked those leaders of that Church, and said to cast out that sinner to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved in the 'day of Christ', that also is a pointer to the unsaved going through Christ's future 1,000 years reign with His elect with standing in judgment.

One of the jobs of Christ's elect Zadok for that future 1,000 years is to teach God's people the difference between the holy and profane, the unclean and the clean. So that future 1,000 years period will... be necessary for many believers even, before God brings in His new heavens and a new earth:

Ezek 44:23-25
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.


24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.


25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
KJV


Furthermore, the Ezekiel 39 thru 47 Chapters are all... future 1,000 years Chapters. They reveal Christ's Millennial sanctuary in the holy land, and even God's River of the Waters of Life emitting out from that sanctuary house, and with the Tree of Life existing on either side of that River. That River is the same River shown flowing out of God's Garden of Eden to feed four other rivers upon the earth, in Adam's day, and two of those rivers (Euphrates and Tigris) still exist on earth to this day. That shows God's Eden and that River was originally upon this earth.

Thus the Ezekiel 47 Chapter is giving us a picture of the return of God's River on this earth, which is another way to 'know' that is only about the time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign. It also well supports the Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture of the wicked still existing in that time when the Tree of Life is manifest inside the gates of the holy city. It also supports what Revelation 21 teaches that shows God's new heavens and a new earth has not yet come in that time of the future 1,000 years period, because after that period there is to be no more temple (no literal sanctuary per Revelation 21:22).

Actually we do believe in it just not a literal one and all of those verses you quoted still stand but are describing the spiritual church age.
 

Davy

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Actually we do believe in it just not a literal one and all of those verses you quoted still stand but are describing the spiritual church age.

I understand what you claim to believe about the 1,000. It is called the doctrine of Amillennialism. No sense in trying to hide that fact, if that's what your intent is. The idea that today Jesus is already reigning is an idea the New World Order hosts are pushing. They have duped many brethren into believing it's our job today to 'create' Christ's Kingdom here on earth in the NOW. That simply is not true per His Word. Christ's literal Kingdom will not be established here on earth UNTIL His future return, and that... is what is written in His Word.

Christ Jesus is NOT reigning yet today over all nations. That's your biggest proof that His future 1,000 years reign will be a LITERAL reign over all nations. Zechariah 14:16 forward is especially proof of this, for after His future return.
 

jeffweeder

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Christ's literal Kingdom will not be established here on earth UNTIL His future return, and that... is what is written in His Word.

Jesus said that Heaven and earth pass away at his coming and Peter said he was looking for a NHNE when that happened.
So you are wrong...,


Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone.
37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].

2pet 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a [mighty and thunderous] roar, and the [material] elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be [in the meantime] in holy behavior [that is, in a pattern of daily life that sets you apart as a believer] and in godliness [displaying profound reverence toward our awesome God], 12 [while you earnestly] look for and await the coming of the day of God. For on this day the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the [material] elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But in accordance with His promise we expectantly await new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


[Christ Jesus is NOT reigning yet today over all nations.]

Rev1
4 John, to the seven churches that are in [the province of] Asia: Grace [be granted] to you and peace [inner calm and spiritual well-being], from Him Who is [existing forever] and Who was [continually existing in the past] and Who is to come, and from the seven Spirits that are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful and trustworthy Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who [always] loves us and who [has once for all] freed us [or washed us] from our sins by His own blood (His sacrificial death)— 6 and formed us into a kingdom [as His subjects], priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the power and the majesty and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes (nations) of the earth will mourn over Him [realizing their sin and guilt, and anticipating the coming wrath]. So it is to be. Amen.

Bye Bye to your millennial pie, drove my chevy to the levy but the levy was dry...singing this will be the day that I die.
 
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Marty fox

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I understand what you claim to believe about the 1,000. It is called the doctrine of Amillennialism. No sense in trying to hide that fact, if that's what your intent is. The idea that today Jesus is already reigning is an idea the New World Order hosts are pushing. They have duped many brethren into believing it's our job today to 'create' Christ's Kingdom here on earth in the NOW. That simply is not true per His Word. Christ's literal Kingdom will not be established here on earth UNTIL His future return, and that... is what is written in His Word.

Christ Jesus is NOT reigning yet today over all nations. That's your biggest proof that His future 1,000 years reign will be a LITERAL reign over all nations. Zechariah 14:16 forward is especially proof of this, for after His future return.

Revelation 3:14
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.
 
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Davy

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Jesus said that Heaven and earth pass away at his coming and Peter said he was looking for a NHNE when that happened.
So you are wrong...,

You are the one following men's false doctrines of Amillennialism, I'm simply following what God's Word declares.

What makes you think Jesus was declaring the new heavens and a new earth timing on the day of His coming by the Matthew 24:35 verse? In the Matthew 13 parable of the tares Scripture, one can also read into it that on the day of Christ's future return, at the harvest, all the wicked ("tares") right then are destroyed. One can devise that same kind of picture when reading in Matthew 25 also about the goats. But Zechariah 14, WHICH I HAVE ALREADY QUOTED SEVERAL TIMES HERE, shows differently, because it reveals after Christ's future return the wicked nations that came up against Jerusalem are NOT DESTROYED, but are made to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him, and even keep the feast of tabernacles, something they probably have never done during this present world!

But you falsely KEEP those few little Scriptures the false Amillennialist doctors have taught you to rely on as your brick and mortar, even though they have only built an untempered wall that God is going to wash away on the last day when He brings His storm.
 

Davy

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Revelation 3:14
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

And there's something else you obviously are relying upon from the doctrines of men, i.e., Dispensationalists.

Those like 1830's John Darby in Britain and later E.W. Bullinger in 1880s Britain came up with the 'Church Ages' ideas. God's Word does NOT teach any such idea.

Christ's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia were literally given by Apostle John to those 7 Churches, but because Jesus pointed to the time of the end and His future coming, by that He made ALL 7 OF THEM to be MESSAGES FOR ALL CHURCHES, all the way to the end of this world.

What are those who wrongly teach differently about that, as if there were 7 Church 'ages' and each one of those Messages is ONLY for a certain Church era in history? It DETRACTS from their IMPORTANCE to ALL CHURCHES, all the way to the end of this world.

One of the anchors for this interpretation is what Jesus showed John at the end of Revelation 1...

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

KJV

Per Lord Jesus, the seven candlesticks seen in Heaven represent the seven Churches.

That means ONLY Lord Jesus has Authority to put them there, or remove them out of their place. As a matter of fact, in His Message to the Church of Ephesus, He warns them about removing their candlestick unless they repent (Revelation 2:5).

Only two Churches Jesus had no problem with, so who might those symbolically represent? His elect Church.

The way those in Christ are to treat Christ's 7 Messages is to LOOK AT WHAT CHURCH WE ATTEND AND COMPARE WITH THOSE 7 MESSAGES. Are we in one that has similar problems that Jesus rebuked, or in one that He did not rebuke? That... is their purpose for ALL Churches today.

So trying to use the last Church Message, to the Church of the Laodiceans, as a marker for the deceived in the last days just DOES NOT WORK, and is false Dispensationalist doctrine of men.

Even in Revelation 11:4 we are shown there are ONLY "two candlesticks" (2 symbolic Churches) that make a 'stand' along with God's two witnesses against the beast for the future great tribulation time.
 

Marty fox

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And there's something else you obviously are relying upon from the doctrines of men, i.e., Dispensationalists.

Those like 1830's John Darby in Britain and later E.W. Bullinger in 1880s Britain came up with the 'Church Ages' ideas. God's Word does NOT teach any such idea.

Christ's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia were literally given by Apostle John to those 7 Churches, but because Jesus pointed to the time of the end and His future coming, by that He made ALL 7 OF THEM to be MESSAGES FOR ALL CHURCHES, all the way to the end of this world.

What are those who wrongly teach differently about that, as if there were 7 Church 'ages' and each one of those Messages is ONLY for a certain Church era in history? It DETRACTS from their IMPORTANCE to ALL CHURCHES, all the way to the end of this world.

One of the anchors for this interpretation is what Jesus showed John at the end of Revelation 1...

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

KJV

Per Lord Jesus, the seven candlesticks seen in Heaven represent the seven Churches.

That means ONLY Lord Jesus has Authority to put them there, or remove them out of their place. As a matter of fact, in His Message to the Church of Ephesus, He warns them about removing their candlestick unless they repent (Revelation 2:5).

Only two Churches Jesus had no problem with, so who might those symbolically represent? His elect Church.

The way those in Christ are to treat Christ's 7 Messages is to LOOK AT WHAT CHURCH WE ATTEND AND COMPARE WITH THOSE 7 MESSAGES. Are we in one that has similar problems that Jesus rebuked, or in one that He did not rebuke? That... is their purpose for ALL Churches today.

So trying to use the last Church Message, to the Church of the Laodiceans, as a marker for the deceived in the last days just DOES NOT WORK, and is false Dispensationalist doctrine of men.

Even in Revelation 11:4 we are shown there are ONLY "two candlesticks" (2 symbolic Churches) that make a 'stand' along with God's two witnesses against the beast for the future great tribulation time.

I don't believe what you think I believe I believe that they were 7 literal churches at that time. When I say the church age, I mean the New Testament era.
 

jeffweeder

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You are the one following men's false doctrines of Amillennialism, I'm simply following what God's Word declares.

What makes you think Jesus was declaring the new heavens and a new earth timing on the day of His coming by the Matthew 24:35 verse? In the Matthew 13 parable of the tares Scripture, one can also read into it that on the day of Christ's future return, at the harvest, all the wicked ("tares") right then are destroyed. One can devise that same kind of picture when reading in Matthew 25 also about the goats. But Zechariah 14, WHICH I HAVE ALREADY QUOTED SEVERAL TIMES HERE, shows differently, because it reveals after Christ's future return the wicked nations that came up against Jerusalem are NOT DESTROYED, but are made to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him, and even keep the feast of tabernacles, something they probably have never done during this present world!

But you falsely KEEP those few little Scriptures the false Amillennialist doctors have taught you to rely on as your brick and mortar, even though they have only built an untempered wall that God is going to wash away on the last day when He brings His storm.

Dream on Davy...Bro'.

Nobody has taught me anything about Amill.
I came to that conclusion all by myself when I first came to the Lord over 40 years ago. I read my bible before I went to Church for the first time...best thing I have ever done as I am unbiased. Thats how I formulated my end times belief when I took the word of God to Heart.

Your reading of Zech 14 IMHO does not line up with the Lords NT teaching about the end times...simple as that for me.
Ever wonder why Jesus, Peter, Paul etc never reference specific OT scripture that clearly refers to the end.
For instance, Matthews Gospel makes many references to our Lords first coming but none that are to be applied to his second.
 

Davy

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I don't believe what you think I believe I believe that they were 7 literal churches at that time. When I say the church age, I mean the New Testament era.

Sure... like I believe that, which is why you quoted Revelation 3:14 regarding the Laodicean Church to me in your previous post.
 

Davy

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Dream on Davy...Bro'.

Nobody has taught me anything about Amill.
I came to that conclusion all by myself when I first came to the Lord over 40 years ago. I read my bible before I went to Church for the first time...best thing I have ever done as I am unbiased. Thats how I formulated my end times belief when I took the word of God to Heart.

Your reading of Zech 14 IMHO does not line up with the Lords NT teaching about the end times...simple as that for me.
Ever wonder why Jesus, Peter, Paul etc never reference specific OT scripture that clearly refers to the end.
For instance, Matthews Gospel makes many references to our Lords first coming but none that are to be applied to his second.

I already have shown you how men's doctrine of Amillennialism is a false doctrine, and denies Bible Scripture, and not just the Zechariah 14 Scripture which you are flat denying just in your above post.

And even with your last sentence above, you are even denying The Gospel of Matthew about Christ's future 2nd coming that He gave. It is written specifically in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. You ought to read it sometime.
 

Marty fox

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Sure... like I believe that, which is why you quoted Revelation 3:14 regarding the Laodicean Church to me in your previous post.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

They were 7 literal churches at the time John penned revelation
 

No Pre-TB

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For instance, Matthews Gospel makes many references to our Lords first coming but none that are to be applied to his second.
I take these versus to talk about things at his 2nd coming IMHO. And there’s such contention on these forums, I don’t expect much from posting this.
Matthew 13:40-43
Matthew 16:27
Matthew 19:28-29
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 26:29
 
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jeffweeder

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I already have shown you how men's doctrine of Amillennialism is a false doctrine, and denies Bible Scripture, and not just the Zechariah 14 Scripture which you are flat denying just in your above post.

And even with your last sentence above, you are even denying The Gospel of Matthew about Christ's future 2nd coming that He gave. It is written specifically in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. You ought to read it sometime.

I am not denying that at all. Stop misrepresenting me. Try reading it again after you pray for discernment.
Try taking the Lords own word regarding his own coming more seriously rather than relying on your own discernment of OT passages.
 

Davy

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I am not denying that at all. Stop misrepresenting me. Try reading it again after you pray for discernment.
Try taking the Lords own word regarding his own coming more seriously rather than relying on your own discernment of OT passages.

I haven't misrepresented you. You have done that to yourself!

You said in your Post #92:
"For instance, Matthews Gospel makes many references to our Lords first coming but none that are to be applied to his second."
(underline my emphasis)
 

jeffweeder

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I take these versus to talk about things at his 2nd coming IMHO. And there’s such contention on these forums, I don’t expect much from posting this.
Matthew 13:40-43
Matthew 16:27
Matthew 19:28-29
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 26:29

Thank you, I agree he is.
Does the Lord give Reference to any OT scripture in the above?
That was the point of my former post
 

jeffweeder

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I haven't misrepresented you. You have done that to yourself!

You said in your Post #92:
"For instance, Matthews Gospel makes many references to our Lords first coming but none that are to be applied to his second."
(underline my emphasis)

You have no idea what I am trying to say.
Jesus stated OT scripture that had been fulfilled at his first coming...,

  1. Matthew 1:22
    All this took place that it might be fulfilled which the Lord had spoken through the prophet,

  2. Matthew 2:17
    Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:

  3. Matthew 2:23
    He went and dwelt in a town called Nazareth, so that what was spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled: He shall be called a Nazarene [Branch, Separated One].

  4. Matthew 8:17
    And thus He fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, He Himself took [in order to carry away] our weaknesses and infirmities and bore away our diseases.

  5. Matthew 21:4
    This happened that what was spoken by the prophet might be fulfilled, saying,

  6. Matthew 26:54
    But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must come about this way?

  7. Matthew 26:56
    But all this has taken place in order that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples deserted Him and, fleeing, escaped.

  8. Matthew 27:9
    Then were fulfilled the words spoken by Jeremiah the prophet when he said, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of Him on Whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel,

  9. Matthew 27:35
    And when they had crucified Him, they divided and distributed His garments [among them] by casting lots so that the prophet’s saying was fulfilled, They parted My garments among them and over My apparel they cast lots.

No such quotes from the OT regarding his second coming.
Understand now?