What and when is the rapture Part 2

Davy · Oct 6, 2022

No Pre-TB said:
I take these versus to talk about things at his 2nd coming IMHO. And there’s such contention on these forums, I don’t expect much from posting this.
Matthew 13:40-43
Matthew 16:27
Matthew 19:28-29
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 26:29

Yes, but as you have quoted jeffweeder's post #92 he denied there is anything written in The Gospel of Matthew that points to Christ's 2nd coming.

So you are correct, Lord Jesus DID... teach about His future 2nd coming at the end of this world in The Book of Matthew (also in Mark, and in Luke).

Davy · Oct 6, 2022

jeffweeder said:
You have no idea what I am trying to say.
Jesus stated OT scripture that had been fulfilled at his first coming...,

Matthew 1:22
All this took place that it might be fulfilled which the Lord had spoken through the prophet,

Matthew 2:17
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:

Matthew 2:23
He went and dwelt in a town called Nazareth, so that what was spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled: He shall be called a Nazarene [Branch, Separated One].

Matthew 8:17
And thus He fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, He Himself took [in order to carry away] our weaknesses and infirmities and bore away our diseases.

Matthew 21:4
This happened that what was spoken by the prophet might be fulfilled, saying,

Matthew 26:54
But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must come about this way?

Matthew 26:56
But all this has taken place in order that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples deserted Him and, fleeing, escaped.

Matthew 27:9
Then were fulfilled the words spoken by Jeremiah the prophet when he said, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of Him on Whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel,

Matthew 27:35
And when they had crucified Him, they divided and distributed His garments [among them] by casting lots so that the prophet’s saying was fulfilled, They parted My garments among them and over My apparel they cast lots.

No such quotes from the OT regarding his second coming.
Understand now?

All I know is what YOU SAID, which is baloney...

What you said in your Post #92, even No Pre-TB quoted you on that.

So if you didn't mean what you said, then WHY did you say that?

And in your above post, what you are trying to do is pull out a few verses here and there to try and prove that Lord Jesus fulfilled everything The Old Testament prophesied, which of course is NOT true, nor Biblical.

As a matter of fact, in those above quotes you actually are taking 'partial' Scripture examples OUT OF THE CONTEXT OF THEIR CHAPTERS! And doing that is grave error! One who stays with the FLOW of where those Scriptures are soon realizes those are about specific events regarding Christ 1st coming ONLY in relation to His crucifixion, and those are the specific Old Testament prophecies being talked about. 'Smite the shepherd' about His Apostles being scattered at His crucifixion was one of them.

You had said in your Post #92:
"For instance, Matthews Gospel makes many references to our Lords first coming but none that are to be applied to his second."
(underline my emphasis)

jeffweeder · Oct 6, 2022

Davy said:
Yes, but as you have quoted jeffweeder's post #92 he denied there is anything written in The Gospel of Matthew that points to Christ's 2nd coming.

I have already told that is not what I was saying. You continue to misrepresent me Why?
Can a mod please assist.

Others had no problem discerning what I was saying in that post below.

Your reading of Zech 14 IMHO does not line up with the Lords NT teaching about the end times...simple as that for me.
Ever wonder why Jesus, Peter, Paul etc never reference specific OT scripture that clearly refers to the end.
For instance, Matthews Gospel makes many references to our Lords first coming but none that are to be applied to his second.

covenantee and Marty fox like this.

Spiritual Israelite · Oct 6, 2022

GISMYS_7 said:
Think!! We raptured believers who are in heaven with Jesus return with Jesus to earth after the years of the great tribulation. Jude 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Yes, think!!

Does scripture teach that raptured believers will be returning with Christ from heaven? Absolutely not. It teaches that believers will be coming with Him just before the rapture occurs.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

I'm sure you agree that this verse relates to the time of the rapture. It tells us that Jesus will be bringing with Him at that time "those who have fallen asleep in him"? Who are they? John references them in Revelation 6:9-11. They are the souls of the dead in Christ. They will be coming with Jesus and will unite with their changed bodies when He comes and they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at that point. Nowhere does scripture teach that after the rapture occurs, believers are taken to heaven and then Jesus descends from heaven again after that. No, He will be descending from heaven once in the future and only once.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Hebrews 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Passages like these make it clear that Jesus will descend from heaven once in the future and He will and appear a second time (the first time happened long ago, of course). Nowhere does scripture teach that He will descend from heaven and appear more than once in the future.

Spiritual Israelite · Oct 6, 2022

jeffweeder said:
I have already told that is not what I was saying. You continue to misrepresent me Why?
Can a mod please assist.

Others had no problem discerning what I was saying in that post below.

Don't waste your time with Davy. He's a rude, nasty person who seems to be incapable of having a respectful discussion

Spiritual Israelite · Oct 6, 2022

Davy said:
All I know is what YOU SAID, which is baloney...

You need to learn to read. You're such a hothead ready to explode with anger at any moment. If you actually took the time to think about what he was saying instead of making assumptions, then you could see what he meant. You know darn well he was not saying that there isn't anything in Matthew about the second coming. Good grief, what is wrong with you?

What you said in your Post #92, even No Pre-TB quoted you on that.

So if you didn't mean what you said, then WHY did you say that?

He was saying that none of the OT scriptures quoted in the book of Matthew applied to Christ's second coming, but many of them applied to His first coming. He wasn't saying that there isn't anything written in Matthew about the second coming. He was only saying that the verses in Matthew where the Old Testament is quoted are not about the second coming. He certainly believes that Matthew 24:29-31 and other passages in Matthew refer to the second coming. Matthew 24:29-31 and other verses in the Olivet Discourse about His second coming don't quote Old Testament verses.

Why not give him the benefit of the doubt instead of thinking he doesn't believe in a second coming of Christ? You could have asked him what he meant instead of just accusing him of saying that there aren't any verses in Matthew about the second coming. Was that too hard for you to do?

jeffweeder · Oct 6, 2022

Spiritual Israelite said:
You need to learn to read. You're such a hothead ready to explode with anger at any moment. If you actually took the time to think about what he was saying instead of making assumptions, then you could see what he meant. You know darn well he was not saying that there isn't anything in Matthew about the second coming. Good grief, what is wrong with you?

He was saying that none of the OT scriptures quoted in the book of Matthew applied to Christ's second coming, but many of them applied to His first coming. He wasn't saying that there isn't anything written in Matthew about the second coming. He was only saying that the verses in Matthew where the Old Testament is quoted are not about the second coming. He certainly believes that Matthew 24:29-31 and other passages in Matthew refer to the second coming. Matthew 24:29-31 and other verses in the Olivet Discourse about His second coming don't quote Old Testament verses.

Why not give him the benefit of the doubt instead of thinking he doesn't believe in a second coming of Christ? You could have asked him what he meant instead of just accusing him of saying that there aren't any verses in Matthew about the second coming. Was that too hard for you to do?

You are a real blessing brother, thank you for understanding me, gives me confidence....no stopping me now :phew:

Spiritual Israelite · Oct 6, 2022

jeffweeder said:
You are a real blessing brother, thank you for understanding me, gives me confidence....no stopping me now

Amen. Don't let someone who is a blowhard and doesn't take the time to actually think about what people are saying stop you.

GRACE ambassador · Oct 6, 2022

GISMYS_7 said:
Think!! We raptured believers who are in heaven with Jesus return with Jesus to earth after the years of the great tribulation...

We are in heaven, because that is our Blessed Hope, and final place of ruling
and reigning "over angels." See below...

Spiritual Israelite said:
Yes, think!!

Does scripture teach that raptured believers will be returning with Christ from heaven? Absolutely not...

Correct; actually I studied and thought!!!

1) Ours [The Body Of Christ] is a heavenly hope
(2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20: Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 4:18)

2) Our Heavenly hope is ETERNAL:

“For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle
were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not
made with hands, Eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 5:1)

3) "Know ye not that we will rule over angels?..." (1Co 6:3)

4) The Body Of Christ "leaves [the third] Heaven with Christ," is
positioned Obviously in [the second] heaven to "rule and reign,"
as "Christ Arrives on the earth" With Only ONE army! *

* See points here '3 And 4' here:

God's Great Grace Departure of The Body Of Christ (1)
+
Points '7b and Note' here:

God's Great Grace Departure of The Body Of Christ (2)

Grace, Peace, Joy, And Comfort In The LORD Jesus Christ!

Timtofly · Oct 6, 2022

Marty fox said:
If you agree with scripture why did you avoid the yes or no questions? Why not answer them?

I asked you direct questions and you reply with your views about something else altogether.

Where did you get 3 days from?

If Babylon is satans kingdom why does the beast destroy it?

It’s God who has the beast destroy her.

The rest of the week of the 7th Trumpet. The week was split in half. The 2 witnesses lay dead for 3.5 days per Revelation 11:11

"And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

3.5 days is half of one week.

Can you quote a verse that states who destroys whom?

Why are you asking yes and no questions? They don't make a single point. It is like asking is the sky blue? Is the sky pink? Is the sky purple? How do we know it is a sky if the word sky is not written in words every time we look up at the sky? At sunset the sky turns all shades of color, but you are asking context questions and demanding black and white answers.

The whole book is the Revelation of Jesus. He is literally in every chapter, but not every verse. Is every verse about Jesus, since it is about His revealing?

Marty fox · Oct 6, 2022

Timtofly said:
The rest of the week of the 7th Trumpet. The week was split in half. The 2 witnesses lay dead for 3.5 days per Revelation 11:11

"And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

3.5 days is half of one week.

Can you quote a verse that states who destroys whom?

Why are you asking yes and no questions? They don't make a single point. It is like asking is the sky blue? Is the sky pink? Is the sky purple? How do we know it is a sky if the word sky is not written in words every time we look up at the sky? At sunset the sky turns all shades of color, but you are asking context questions and demanding black and white answers.

The whole book is the Revelation of Jesus. He is literally in every chapter, but not every verse. Is every verse about Jesus, since it is about His revealing?

Well you said 3 days not 3 1/2 days

Here it is again who destroys who and who put them up to it but I did post it to you already

Revelation 17:16-17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

Im asking yes or no questions because they are biblical facts which prove your view wrong about them being the same battle. If you answer them honestly you will see that.

No Pre-TB · Oct 7, 2022

jeffweeder said:
Thank you, I agree he is.
Does the Lord give Reference to any OT scripture in the above?
That was the point of my former post

I understand now. With the scripture I provided, He does not, or at least none that I’m aware of; but we can find references to things in the OT related to what he said.

Example:
In regards to Matthew 16:27,
Daniel 7:10
Zechariah 14:5
Job 34:11
Psalm 62:12
Proverbs 24:12

No Pre-TB · Oct 7, 2022

Davy said:
Yes, but as you have quoted jeffweeder's post #92 he denied there is anything written in The Gospel of Matthew that points to Christ's 2nd coming.

So you are correct, Lord Jesus DID... teach about His future 2nd coming at the end of this world in The Book of Matthew (also in Mark, and in Luke).

Yes, many in parables which we can see these same things in Revelation. Example: Wedding feast, the 10 virgins w/the door closing, the harvest parable etc

No Pre-TB · Oct 7, 2022

GRACE ambassador said:
We are in heaven, because that is our Blessed Hope, and final place of ruling
and reigning "over angels."

Our blessed hope isn’t heaven. Christ return is our blessed hope in his epiphania.

Our final resting place is Heaven? Where is this learned? 2 Cor 5:1? Really? Are you taking that literally?
1. Verse 1: If we die in this current body, we will be resurrected and given a new body
2. Verse 2: We all want a new immortal body
3. Verse 3: Having an immortal body means acceptance to Christ
4. Verse 4: We in the flesh pursue the spirit to gain the reward
5. Verse 5: God has given us the comforter which is the down payment and sealing of the spirit.
6. Verse 6: While in the flesh, we are not in an uncorrupted body with Christ which is at the resurrection; our current body decays while a heavenly body is free from decay.
7. Verse 7: Our faith moves us to seek beyond a corruptible body. We look to Christ, the first fruits of the resurrection
8. Verse 8: Because of our faith, we’d rather be absent of our fleshly tent and rather be in our immortal one with Christ.
9. Verse 9: We labor regardless
10. Verse 10: The bema seat is on 1 appointed day for ALL men.

Where in all of that does it say we go to heaven? Wanting to be in an immortal body with Christ at the resurrection is not the same as saying death = immediately in heaven.

Edit: The entire context is on corruptible vs an incorruptible body as a reward. It has zero to do with physical death and going to heaven and everything to do with the resurrection of the dead, our reward because of faith in Him.
Look at Mark 14:58 and compare please to vs 1 here.

Timtofly · Oct 7, 2022

jeffweeder said:
No such quotes from the OT regarding his second coming.
Understand now?

When the Second Coming happens, the OT will be referenced then. Those who reject the OT on the Second Coming will be like the first century Pharisees who rejected the OT Scriptures about the first coming.

Preterist cannot claim OT Scriptures about a Second Coming in the first century, because it never happened. Now that many are pointing out OT Scriptures about the Second Coming, why do you take issue with them?

John saw the future Second Coming and wrote how it would fulfill OT Scriptures. Yet it is still future, so cannot be claimed as fulfilled. Revelation is pointing out how the Second Coming will fulfill many OT verses when it actually happens.

The Day of the Lord is still future. It is not taking place in the here and now as Amil assume.

Timtofly · Oct 7, 2022

Marty fox said:
Well you said 3 days not 3 1/2 days

Here it is again who destroys who and who put them up to it but I did post it to you already

Revelation 17:16-17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

Im asking yes or no questions because they are biblical facts which prove your view wrong about them being the same battle. If you answer them honestly you will see that.

The prostitute is not the Babylonian Kingdom set up by Satan. What is destroyed is any false religion that has been in bed with Satan, instead of serving the true God.

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

This is religion pulling the "governmental strings", thinking they are serving God, but serving Satan, instead. Religion has many faces and titles. During Satan's 42 months this woman is of a singular nature. These 4 chapters put into context the nature of these 42 months granted in Revelation 13:4-7

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

By the end of these 42 months, religion will be gone. Think of it as a rider on a horse, and the horse finally throws off the rider, and is free from that control. The ten kingdoms have been struggling for control the 42 months. When they finally have it, they are killed at Armageddon. People will have the mark, and only serving Satan. The Lamb destroys these 10 kings who reign with Satan's Babylonian Kingdom the one hour of Armageddon.

As for those two witnesses, they lay dead for 3.5 days, but the vials are only poured out the first 3 days. The last amount of time is for whoever is left on earth, being gathered to Armageddon on the same day, the last half day, the 2 witnesses are still dead.

Some claim the 2 witnesses are the church being raptured right before Armageddon. But only 2 individuals. Scripture does not say the church has bodies strewn throughout Jerusalem. Paul does not teach every one will be dead at the Second Coming. He taught some would be alive to see it happen. The last of the redeemed were all beheaded during these 42 months. Then the 2 witnesses, themselves killed, and their bodies left in Jerusalem for 3.5 days.

The Lamb returns to Armageddon and kills the last remaining humans in Revelation 19. There are not 2 returns, one in Revelation 16 and 17, and then one in 18 and 19. All 4 chapters are talking about the same Armageddon moment. The ultimate end of Satan's 42 months.

Marty fox · Oct 7, 2022

Timtofly said:
The prostitute is not the Babylonian Kingdom set up by Satan. What is destroyed is any false religion that has been in bed with Satan, instead of serving the true God.

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

This is religion pulling the "governmental strings", thinking they are serving God, but serving Satan, instead. Religion has many faces and titles. During Satan's 42 months this woman is of a singular nature. These 4 chapters put into context the nature of these 42 months granted in Revelation 13:4-7

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

By the end of these 42 months, religion will be gone. Think of it as a rider on a horse, and the horse finally throws off the rider, and is free from that control. The ten kingdoms have been struggling for control the 42 months. When they finally have it, they are killed at Armageddon. People will have the mark, and only serving Satan. The Lamb destroys these 10 kings who reign with Satan's Babylonian Kingdom the one hour of Armageddon.

As for those two witnesses, they lay dead for 3.5 days, but the vials are only poured out the first 3 days. The last amount of time is for whoever is left on earth, being gathered to Armageddon on the same day, the last half day, the 2 witnesses are still dead.

Some claim the 2 witnesses are the church being raptured right before Armageddon. But only 2 individuals. Scripture does not say the church has bodies strewn throughout Jerusalem. Paul does not teach every one will be dead at the Second Coming. He taught some would be alive to see it happen. The last of the redeemed were all beheaded during these 42 months. Then the 2 witnesses, themselves killed, and their bodies left in Jerusalem for 3.5 days.

The Lamb returns to Armageddon and kills the last remaining humans in Revelation 19. There are not 2 returns, one in Revelation 16 and 17, and then one in 18 and 19. All 4 chapters are talking about the same Armageddon moment. The ultimate end of Satan's 42 months.

Yet you still didn't answer the yes or no questions which prove your view wrong.

All you have done here is given your views which have extra details not backed by scripture.

You say that the prostitute isn't the Babylon kingdom but scripture shows that the prostitute is babylon the great city

Spiritual Israelite · Oct 7, 2022

GRACE ambassador said:
We are in heaven, because that is our Blessed Hope, and final place of ruling
and reigning "over angels." See below...

Correct; actually I studied and thought!!!

1) Ours [The Body Of Christ] is a heavenly hope
(2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20: Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 4:18)

In terms of a verse like Ephesians 2:6, that is talking about a current reality of spiritually being seated with Christ in the heavenly realms (not bodily, but spiritually). Do you understand that?

2) Our Heavenly hope is ETERNAL:

“For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle
were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not
made with hands, Eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 5:1)

Do you understand that our eternal dwelling place will be the new heavens and new earth? Once we are changed and have immortal bodies that is where we will be forever.

3) "Know ye not that we will rule over angels?..." (1Co 6:3)

It says we will judge angels, not rule over them. How does this support your view exactly? It's as if you don't understand that our eternal dwelling place will be the new earth, not heaven.

4) The Body Of Christ "leaves [the third] Heaven with Christ," is
positioned Obviously in [the second] heaven to "rule and reign,"
as "Christ Arrives on the earth" With Only ONE army! *

* See points here '3 And 4' here:

God's Great Grace Departure of The Body Of Christ (1)
+
Points '7b and Note' here:

God's Great Grace Departure of The Body Of Christ (2)

Grace, Peace, Joy, And Comfort In The LORD Jesus Christ!

I don't click on external links when I'm on this forum. Can you explain your point #4 to me here? Because just from what you said here, it makes no sense at all. It seems like your view is based a lot on assumptions rather than having clear, solid scriptural support.

Spiritual Israelite · Oct 7, 2022

Timtofly said:
The prostitute is not the Babylonian Kingdom set up by Satan. What is destroyed is any false religion that has been in bed with Satan, instead of serving the true God.

Revelation 17:4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery: Babylon the great, the mother of prostitutes, and of the abominations of the earth.

Timtofly · Oct 11, 2022

Marty fox said:
Yet you still didn't answer the yes or no questions which prove your view wrong.

All you have done here is given your views which have extra details not backed by scripture.

You say that the prostitute isn't the Babylon kingdom but scripture shows that the prostitute is babylon the great city

Scripture does not say the prostitute is the Babylonian kingdom. That is the beast she is riding on. The prostitute is religion.

The Babylonian Kingdom destroys religion, because religion failed humanity. There is only one battle with the Lamb as written in Revelation 17, and it is Armageddon.

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

This army is the one gathered in the 6th vial:

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. And he (God Almighty) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

God gathers all humanity left on earth to fight against the Lamb at Armageddon. Revelation 19 is the Lamb at Armageddon.

Jesus is God, so yes, Jesus is there in Revelation 16. Thought you knew that Jesus and God are one Lord? Satan is there at Armageddon and bound for 1,000 years in the pit, because his army lost the battle and all were killed.

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Do you not see that religion is symbolized by a city riding the Babylonian Kingdom and using religion to rule the world? The beast cannot be both the woman and the beast. The beast represents human government. The woman represents religion that rules over human government. They go hand in hand until religion fails. When all humanity has the mark, religion is no longer necessary. The AoD is complete, and a religious moral code evaporated.

What and when is the rapture Part 2

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