Did God Create Evil?

justaname said:

By the definition of free will we can do good or evil. In order for free will to exist both good and evil have to exist. I agree it was Satan along with his angels that decided to commit evil, but God allowed it.
Do you really believe God created Satan not knowing what he will do?

Now for your verse of the serpent of old, or ancient serpent. The snake was never described that way in Genesis 3. Correct me if I am wrong, but the snake is not mentioned that way until Revelation, which by that time the snake is ancient.

Now I am not sure I prescribe to the two creations theory. I do know from other near eastern writings that a general account is given in a text. Then the author narrows down his story, refining and giving more detail about the text.

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Understanding the word "evil" in a legalist sense IS indeed using the "human reasoning" FHII spoke of. Doing wickedness, iniquity, unrighteousness, etc., are all... in the category of 'sin' against God. So can we say that God created sin too?

There's a certain point where absolutist legalist thinking can stray away from God's Truth in His Word.

God did not create 'sin', for how does His Word define what sin is? (Now there's where many try to apply "human reasoning" instead of heeding God's Holy Writ with trying to come up with their own definitions of sin).

The definition of 'sin' is found in 1 John 3:4...


I Jn 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(KJV)


Transgression of what "law"? The laws of the Old Covenant that God gave Moses? Some of them, mainly God's moral law of those dealing with our relationship with God per His Ten Commandments. Some will try to say, "Well God hadn't given His laws yet when Satan first rebelled!" Oh really? If that were true, then Satan could not have sinned from the beginning like Apostle John said, and God's Salvation Plan would not have been necessary.

Thus the way 'evil' came into existence was by Satan breaking God's law in coveting God's Throne for himself, which is 'sin', 'iniquity', 'wickedness', 'unrighteousness', i.e., 'evil'. That is how, and when evil started. It is also how God is Just with destroying evil and sin in final to bring His new heavens and a new earth of the future. It's also how God is Just in creating Jerusalem and His saints a joy when that future new heavens and a new earth is established. The idea is that He going to remove even the 'ability' to do sin and evil by creating us a joy. Does it not then make more sense why... He established the requirement to believe on Him through His Son to be able to take part in that future joy? By doing that we 'each' have to make choice, either to be with Him and love Him like He says, or to perish with Satan, death, hell, the wicked, etc.



Nahum 1:5-10
5 The mountains quake at Him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at His presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by Him.
7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and He knoweth them that trust in Him.
8 But with an overrunning flood He will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue His enemies.
9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
(KJV)



The "affliction" or trouble God through Nahum speaks of is about a second rebellion, like the first one Satan caused in the beginning that will have continued all the way down to the end of this present world. It's not going to happen a second time. Once everyone has made their choice with full 'hearing' (understanding), the ability to rebel against God will no longer exist, forever. (For you Legalists, I'm talking about rebellion ending with the "lake of fire" event at the end of God's Great White Throne Judgment.)

How could Satan Fall if he was always evil?

Also, I realize I have not contributed very much to this discussion yet, but I am finding it difficult to add anything to Augustine's definition of evil. I do not have a problem believing it, despite the fact that it is not explicitly stated in the Bible.

veteran said:

Understanding the word "evil" in a legalist sense IS indeed using the "human reasoning" FHII spoke of. Doing wickedness, iniquity, unrighteousness, etc., are all... in the category of 'sin' against God. So can we say that God created sin too? There's a certain point where absolutist legalist thinking can stray away from God's Truth in His Word. God did not create 'sin', for how does His Word define what sin is? (Now there's where many try to apply "human reasoning" instead of heeding God's Holy Writ with trying to come up with their own definitions of sin). The definition of 'sin' is found in 1 John 3:4... I Jn 3:4 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (KJV) Transgression of what "law"? The laws of the Old Covenant that God gave Moses? Some of them, mainly God's moral law of those dealing with our relationship with God per His Ten Commandments. Some will try to say, "Well God hadn't given His laws yet when Satan first rebelled!" Oh really? If that were true, then Satan could not have sinned from the beginning like Apostle John said, and God's Salvation Plan would not have been necessary. Thus the way 'evil' came into existence was by Satan breaking God's law in coveting God's Throne for himself, which is 'sin', 'iniquity', 'wickedness', 'unrighteousness', i.e., 'evil'. That is how, and when evil started. It is also how God is Just with destroying evil and sin in final to bring His new heavens and a new earth of the future. It's also how God is Just in creating Jerusalem and His saints a joy when that future new heavens and a new earth is established. The idea is that He going to remove even the 'ability' to do sin and evil by creating us a joy. Does it not then make more sense why... He established the requirement to believe on Him through His Son to be able to take part in that future joy? By doing that we 'each' have to make choice, either to be with Him and love Him like He says, or to perish with Satan, death, hell, the wicked, etc. Nahum 1:5-10 5 The mountains quake at Him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at His presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. 6 Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by Him. 7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and He knoweth them that trust in Him. 8 But with an overrunning flood He will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue His enemies. 9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. 10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry. (KJV) The "affliction" or trouble God through Nahum speaks of is about a second rebellion, like the first one Satan caused in the beginning that will have continued all the way down to the end of this present world. It's not going to happen a second time. Once everyone has made their choice with full 'hearing' (understanding), the ability to rebel against God will no longer exist, forever. (For you Legalists, I'm talking about rebellion ending with the "lake of fire" event at the end of God's Great White Throne Judgment.)

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Call me what you wish, it still does not support your idea. In fact nothing here that you posted supports your idea either.

From your idea Satan was the first to sin, thereby creating evil. By the definition of sin in the bible that would be impossible for the law wasn't given yet.

All we know from Genesis chapter 1 for sure is that everything was "very good". Why would you speculate that changed? I have not read it was "very good until Satan fell", only that it was "very good."
It is not until chapter 3 that any transgression began for law was given. Genesis 2:16

God is NOT the author of evil. Romans 8:28
Remember Egypt and the hardening of hearts. God could have taken His people earlier but He didn't for His purposes and His name sake. My point here being it is God who is in control of everything including evil.

The book of Job clearly shows Satan going before God asking permission. What should we gather from this in accordance with a rebellious Satan, who we know is evil? When I was a child and wanted to do something I knew was wrong, I sure didn't ask permission, I acted.

I have plenty of scripture to support my concept of God.
I may be more persuaded if you were to give more scripture supporting your idea.

We know Judas was taking from the purse but Jesus kept him around. Could Judas be a type of Satan on a cosmic level?

Now as for John's texts, John 8:44 1John 3:8
I see the garden with Adam and Eve still naked in chapter two. No children, no transgression. That, to me, would be the beginning.

I will agree Satan is the first to sin, with Eve then Adam following.
It is God who planted the tree, and God who made the command. Genesis 2:9 Genesis 2:16-17
By doing this, and giving free will, God created the possibility of sin or evil. For without a command to break no sin or evil could be committed.

Now to use Ezekiel 28 I believe is wrong for I see the son of man taking up lamentation to the king of Tyre. I understand some substitute Satan for that king, but that poses a huge problem. If you can substitute this man for Satan what stops you from substituting any man for Satan?

Again at the end of Genesis chapter 1 all was "very good." To say that changed is to add to the story, which the original author did not.
I believe Satan's first sin began in pride (of his form over Adam's) and jealousy (of God's love for Adam). Is that maybe why God allowed him in the garden to begin with? The sin was fully manifested at the breaking of the law or deception of Eve.

Now why would an all knowing, all loving God allow evil or sin to begin with.
With free will being the way we are created this is the plan God has for us.
In order for free will to exist you must have a choice. By giving a choice some will choose contrary to God's nature and will for us. Satan did deceiving Eve, and Adam followed Eve's fall.

Does anyone with the ability to create everything have a better plan?

Now for the two creations situation. Why is there no mention from anyone in the texts that describe creation that way?

FHII said:

Veteran,

You aren't telling me anything I don't already understand. You think I don't know when Satan fell? I absolutely believe it was between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. That's not something new. Now everything you just said in my quote of you, I can turn around on you and ask you the same question. However, if you believe God DIDN'T create evil, it's you that is against what the scriptures clearly say. And it just doesn't say it in one verse. God created evil, God sent evil, and I dare say that when there was evil in a place, God did it! I wouldn't say that if I didn't have verses to back me up, and I've already given them.

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Still, you're missing for what TIME the Isaiah 45:7 verse is in, along with any others that refer to God using evil to punish the wicked. It's NOT in the timeframe of God's original creation, but in the timeframe of His creation past Gen.1:2 for this present world, the time when God placed today's creation in bondage like Paul says in Rom.8.

Per isaiah 10, with the Assyrian as a type for Satan, God says he is the rod of His anger. God uses the devil and his hosts as punishing rods upon the wicked, but not for the time before Satan rebelled against Him, but for AFTER the time of the rebellion, i.e., past Gen.1:2.

That's the timeframe when God says He creates evil per Isa.45:7, for AFTER Satan's rebelliion, AFTER sin and evil had already come in by Satan.

FHII said:

What you have failed to either realize or mention is that Satan sinned from the beginning and was a murderer and liar from the beginning; however, Christ was chosen as a sacrifical lamb and we were chosen in him BEFORE that. Why? If evil hadn't been created yet, why did this happen? The timeline you speak of (and I agree with it except on a few minor parts) is correct. However it does more to prove that God created evil than not.

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How have I missed that Christ was to come as the Perfect Sacrifice for sin, and that His elect were chosen in Him prior to the foundation of this world? Those are things I specifically mentioned in my posts. Satan's rebellion was BEFORE that, which is why God ordained this present world for Christ to die on the cross. None of that points to God having created evil, but instead directly to Satan's rebellion starting the concept of evil. Many who assign the Isa.45:7 creating of evil to God are not really aware of when Satan originally being "perfect in his ways" and then coveting God's Throne was. They are only familiar with this present world's creation, and not the time of old.

God is not the author of confusion. There is a verse that says that (not one that says God isn't the author of evil, that I can remember). However, you can't say that God didn't bring confusion or confused people. The Bible also says God cannot lie, but it also said he sent lying spirits. But God did create everything, including evil.

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Once again, what timeframe God has used evil upon the wicked as punishment has to be considered. It was not prior to Satan's rebellion, but after his rebellion. It was Satan that brought 'confusion', not God, for the Hebrew 'tohuw' (without form) is one of the words used to point to that confusion Satan caused back "in the world that then was."

If you want to say I'm a legalist and thinking with a carnal mind or using human understanding, think again... because I don't just have one verse. I have "one verse" in Isa 45, but a more than a few others. I also have one ultimate verse that says "ALL THINGS were made by him, and without him NOTHING was made." Words like "all" and "nothing" are absolute. Unless exceptions are placed upon them, the mean, well... all or nothing! And if I'm being legalistic, well than I'm just following verses like Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4 as well as Matthew 5:18. Yes, I agree we have to do more than scratch the surface. But does that mean "dig beyond the meaning?"

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With someone who only understands Gen.1 in the perspective of God's creation of this present world only, it's kind of expected for those to somewhat be legalists in understanding the Isa.45:7 verse. It's because they only have one timeframe reference, this present world, instead of any idea of an original perfect creation when Satan served God at His Throne. That's what your words show, that you're not really aware of the time of old when Satan was originally created and served God, which would explain your below statement...

And once again, I have to remind you that Eze 28 isn't about Satan.

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You're wrong about that. Ezekiel 28:13-28 are specifically about none other than Satan himself. No flesh man was created a "cherub", for that's a heavenly being. No flesh man except Adam was in God's Garden of Eden, but Satan was. And none others but Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish like Ezekiel 28:18 reveals. Because you deny that Scripture is about Satan originally having been created "perfect in his ways", that's why you default to your view that God created evil per the Isa.45:7 verse.

You seem to be trying to explain away Isa 45:7, but how do you explain all the other verses away, and especially John 1:3? You have surprised me and brought more to this topic and many others have (and yes, I've been in this debate alot). No one's mentioned the "timeline" (though I have questions about whether it supports your theory), but I don't see a way around that verse. You also seem to be relying on free will of Satan. That would begin a whole other can of worms, but I don't subscribe to that either. I don't believe God created something he didn't know or, more importantly, intend to do what he would do. Satan was ALWAYS evil and God purposely made him that way.

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If you deny these Ezekiel 28 verses about Satan, then I can see why you're having trouble seeing the different timeframes. I say that not to ridicule, only being honest...

Ezek 28:13-19
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(KJV)

Shirley said:

God is light and in him is no darkness at all! I believe that when he brings evil it is by removing his protection.

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That's exactly how it is. And that's for this present world after Satan had already rebelled against Him. For those who trust in God, His protection is upon them.

Ps 34:15-22
15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and His ears are open unto their cry.
16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
17 The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of His servants: and none of them that trust in Him shall be desolate.
(KJV)

justaname said:

Call me what you wish, it still does not support your idea. In fact nothing here that you posted supports your idea either.

From your idea Satan was the first to sin, thereby creating evil. By the definition of sin in the bible that would be impossible for the law wasn't given yet.

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Might want to think about that again, for as Apostle John said, the devil sinneth from the beginning. Since he also defined sin as 'the transgression of the law", it would not be possible for Satan to sin from the beginning unless some law was already in effect at that time.

All we know from Genesis chapter 1 for sure is that everything was "very good". Why would you speculate that changed? I have not read it was "very good until Satan fell", only that it was "very good."
It is not until chapter 3 that any transgression began for law was given. Genesis 2:16

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Your time reference is about "the heavens and the earth, which are now", and not the time reference of "the world that then was" when Satan first rebelled (2 Pet.3). Like Peter said, many are willingly ignorant that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, with the earth standing out of the water and in the water (i.e., a reference to Gen.1:2, not the flood of Noah's day).

God is NOT the author of evil. Romans 8:28

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I definitely agree. But that's not what the Romans 8:28 verse is about.

Remember Egypt and the hardening of hearts. God could have taken His people earlier but He didn't for His purposes and His name sake. My point here being it is God who is in control of everything including evil.

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What timeframe reference is that in? AFTER Satan had already rebelled with God having brought this present "heavens and the earth, which are now", starting at Gen.1:2. There was a time before that when Satan first rebelled.

The book of Job clearly shows Satan going before God asking permission. What should we gather from this in accordance with a rebellious Satan, who we know is evil? When I was a child and wanted to do something I knew was wrong, I sure didn't ask permission, I acted.

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Once again, what timeframe reference is that, before Satan rebelled, or after? Ans: after.

I have plenty of scripture to support my concept of God.
I may be more persuaded if you were to give more scripture supporting your idea.

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I outlined it simply with Scripture references in my post #20 for those interested. It's up to the Bible student to do their own homework in that. Here's a statement we can certainly be absolutists about which God said. In Isa.45:18 He said He did NOT create the earth 'towhu' ("in vain"), the same Hebrew tohuw word translated to "without form" in Gen.1:2 and Jer.4:23.

We know Judas was taking from the purse but Jesus kept him around. Could Judas be a type of Satan on a cosmic level?

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Our Lord Jesus said He chose His 12 Apostles, and one of them was "a devil" (John 6:70-71). He was speaking of Judas. Yet Judas has not be judged and sentenced to perish like Satan has. So Judas was not 'the' devil in that sense, but a follower by his ways. He held the 'bag' (treasury) and was covetous.

FHII said:

I really don't know how to answer that question. Satan fell because he was evil. If you mean why did he remain in Heaven so long when he was evil, we don't really know. Probably for the same reason that Judas as an apostle for so long before he manifested his nature.

As for it not being explicitly mentioned in the Bible, it is....

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Yet, evil cannot exist in Heaven

If God creates evil, He is evil. The reason that we are evil - as Christ pointed out - is because we do evil.

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Posted Yesterday, 05:14 PM
Now as for John's texts, John 8:44 1John 3:8
I see the garden with Adam and Eve still naked in chapter two. No children, no transgression. That, to me, would be the beginning.

I will agree Satan is the first to sin, with Eve then Adam following.
It is God who planted the tree, and God who made the command. Genesis 2:9 Genesis 2:16-17
By doing this, and giving free will, God created the possibility of sin or evil. For without a command to break no sin or evil could be committed.

Now to use Ezekiel 28 I believe is wrong for I see the son of man taking up lamentation to the king of Tyre. I understand some substitute Satan for that king, but that poses a huge problem. If you can substitute this man for Satan what stops you from substituting any man for Satan?

Again at the end of Genesis chapter 1 all was "very good." To say that changed is to add to the story, which the original author did not.
I believe Satan's first sin began in pride (of his form over Adam's) and jealousy (of God's love for Adam). Is that maybe why God allowed him in the garden to begin with? The sin was fully manifested at the breaking of the law or deception of Eve.

Now why would an all knowing, all loving God allow evil or sin to begin with.
With free will being the way we are created this is the plan God has for us.
In order for free will to exist you must have a choice. By giving a choice some will choose contrary to God's nature and will for us. Satan did deceiving Eve, and Adam followed Eve's fall.

Does anyone with the ability to create everything have a better plan?

Now for the two creations situation. Why is there no mention from anyone in the texts that describe creation that way?
[/indent]​

justaname said:

<p>

Now to use Ezekiel 28 I believe is wrong for I see the son of man taking up lamentation to the king of Tyre. I understand some substitute Satan for that king, but that poses a huge problem. If you can substitute this man for Satan what stops you from substituting any man for Satan?​

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Substitute? How do you figure that acknowledging Ezekiel 28 is a comparison of the king of Tyre to Satan is a substitution?

Was the king of Tyre actually in the Garden of Eden? Or was it Satan, "that old serpent" (Revelation 12:9; 20:2) ?

Is that what you think Jesus was doing there at John 8:44? Substituting Satan?

Perhaps you are failing to really listen to those that speak concerning the comparison?

I suppose there may be a few out there that do not realize the main person being spoken about is the king of Tyre. But the context so plainly says that it is nothing terrific to see.

If you do a deeper digging into the words and descriptions used there in Ezekiel 28 you will learn some very eye opening things.

For example, did you know that just as the Hebrews used the Mountains to symbolize places of authority over this earth they also used the earth as a symbol of man's true place in relation to that authority (of course all authority permitted of God lest it could not be).

And they used the low places such as valleys and crevasses to denote a place of debased condition of men.

Do a search of the full meaning of that word "covereth". That one is fascinating. It tells you a lot about the function of a cherub. And in that you begin to get a glimpse of what Satan (before he made himself Satan and the devil) was supposed to be doing in the Garden of Eden as commission of God.

Ezekiel 28 actually helps us to see that it was right there in Eden that this Shining One made himself Satan and the devil.

Can a man copy that example?

The king of Tyre did.

I had to modify your post so the sentences would line up.

By justaname:

Now as for John's texts, John 8:44 1John 3:8I see the garden with Adam and Eve still naked in chapter two. No children, no transgression. That, to me, would be the beginning.I will agree Satan is the first to sin, with Eve then Adam following.It is God who planted the tree, and God who made the command.

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Some pastors understand "the world that then was" when Satan first rebelled; others don't. It was prior to Adam and Eve in God's Garden.

Genesis 2:9

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Genesis 2:16-17By doing this, and giving free will, God created the possibility of sin or evil. For without a command to break no sin or evil could be committed.Now to use Ezekiel 28 I believe is wrong for I see the son of man taking up lamentation to the king of Tyre. I understand some substitute Satan for that king, but that poses a huge problem. If you can substitute this man for Satan what stops you from substituting any man for Satan?Again at the end of Genesis chapter 1 all was "very good." To say that changed is to add to the story, which the original author did not.

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If you think about it, free will cannot exist without giving the individual power of choice. Do our choices come with responsibility today? Yes. No different with the time when Satan rebelled either.

As for God pointing to Satan in the Ezekiel 28 chapter, it's unmistakeable, simply because no flesh king of Tyre was in God's Eden, and no flesh king or prince of Tyre (Tyrus) was ever a heavenly "cherub", for a cherub is a heavenly being only. Also, no flesh man born through woman since Cain and Abel have been judged and sentenced to perish yet. Only Satan and his angels have. Ezekiel 28:18 pronounces a death sentence upon that one of Tyrus. Also, the meaning of the name Tyrus means 'rock', another title used for Satan in Deut.32:31. Thus our Heavenly Father is using that as a metaphor for the false 'rock', i.e., Satan, because Satan wants to be The Rock (our Heavenly Father).

I believe Satan's first sin began in pride (of his form over Adam's) and jealousy (of God's love for Adam). Is that maybe why God allowed him in the garden to begin with? The sin was fully manifested at the breaking of the law or deception of Eve.

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It was definitley about pride, as the Ezek.28 description reveals. But it wasn't over jealousy concerning Adam, because Adam and Eve did not yet exist.

Now why would an all knowing, all loving God allow evil or sin to begin with.
With free will being the way we are created this is the plan God has for us.
In order for free will to exist you must have a choice. By giving a choice some will choose contrary to God's nature and will for us. Satan did deceiving Eve, and Adam followed Eve's fall.

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Free will is an important consideration, because it does involve 'individual' choice. Along with that comes individual responsibility for choice too. As long as Satan served God at His Throne being 'perfect in his ways', like Ezekiel 28 points to in the beginning before he rebelled, then there was no sin, no rebellion, and thus NO evil.

With God Who sustains our every breath, our spirit and soul, and only desires good for us, what reason could anyone given free will choice have to rebel against Him? That needs to be considered not just when Satan first rebelled, but also of those who rebel against God still today.

Does anyone with the ability to create everything have a better plan?

Now for the two creations situation. Why is there no mention from anyone in the texts that describe creation that way?

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Peter described it. So did Paul. Some of it was even given through Jeremiah. Job covers bits of it too. But don't ask me why some are given to understand it and others are not. I asked a pastor about it once, and he told me no man showed it to him, but that God showed it to him. Several Bible scholars of history were aware of it, E.W. Bullinger was one of them.

FHII said:

Satan was in the Garden of Eden, But the prince of Tyre was in Eden, "The Garden of God." There is a difference. The Garden of Eden as explained in Genesis 1-3 was (what I believe, and I'll leave it at that) a different dimension. If you believe it was or still is a place on earth, I won't debate you at this point on that. However, the Eden of Ezekiel's prophecy was an earthly region, that (unlike the Eden of Genesis) humans like the Prince as well as the Pharaoh or anyone else of that time could go to. It was near Damascus.

This is what I was talking about. People see the word Eden, and immediately jump to conclusions. According to Nelson's Dictionary of the Bible there was an earthly region called "Eden":

Eden 2. A region or city in Mesopotamia that supplied Tyre with choice items such as purple clothes, embroidered garments, chests of multicolored apperal, and strong twined cords. Called Bit-Adini on the Assyrian monuments, this place proabably was near Damascus.

You need not rely on that alone (I too, get sceptical of this Dictionary from time to time). Please read Eze 27:22-25. Eden is mentioned and if you believe it's the same Eden mentioned in the next chapter.... Then not only was Satan and the prince of Tyre there... But a lot of merchants went there during the time of Ezekiel (despite those flaming swords guarding the way).

After that, please look to Eze 28:13. What did you learn about what the merchants got from Eden, as well as the various other regions/cities in chapter 27? Clearly, it's not talking about the Eden of Genesis.

Next go to Eze 31:8-9. Cedars are in the Garden of God. More merchants, trees for lumber, and Pharaoh hiding.

This doesn't sound like the Garden where the serpant tempted Woman.

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Yes, there was a material physical place called Eden in later Bible history. But it's unmistakeable which Eden God is speaking of through Ezekiel, because the reference is to a heavenly "cherub", NOT a flesh man.


Ezek 28:13-16
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(KJV)

The heavenly cherub descriptions are common to the Book of Ezekiel, since he first began writing of his vision of them starting at Ezekiel chapter 9. So there's no mistaking what he was pointing to with the "cherub" of Ezekiel 28.

FHI, has it not occurred to you that Eden was not a "Garden of God" but similar, though the people may have been trying to recreate their own version of it? (compare Genesis 13: 10; Joel 2: 2, 3; Isaiah 51: 3, 11; Jeremiah 31: 10, 11, 12; Canticles 4:12, 13, 14, 15, 16) Your view leaves out too many of the finer points revealed in the chapter. It also fails to relate other testimony of scripture.