I actually did start to create a whole new thread, and only reference it here for the line by line coverage I did. But I found in the past it would often be seen as separate from the debate origin. So folks can decided to read it, or not read it. No one is being forced to.
Did God Create Evil?
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:lol: Well I was wrong that this is the debate section anyway.
So, give me the directions to your thread as I would like to read it.
My line upon line posts of Isa.10 & 14 and Ezek.31 are within THIS current thread you're in. But I did not cover the complete Isa.10 chapter. What I did cover is line upon line sections though, no verses omitted within the sections.
justaname
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What is admitted is your interpretation and reasoning is confusing. There is no way to truly qualify your view as I have pointed out. You have simply avoided the verses I and FHII have posted which are plain and easy to read and understand.
The bible, read plainly, is not confusing at all. All is revealed through the HolySpirit because I have the love of God in me, thereby I understand the passages and their meaning. 1 Corinthians 1:18
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Yea pretty much. Veteran has given us a long personal philosophy of what he thinks Isa 10, 14 and Eze 28 and 31 mean. And other than his belief of free will and these verses are talking about Satan instead of a literal man on earth (which is the case for Isa 14, and Eze 28), I really don't see what the point is. As he said, His commentary isn't for me. I praise God for that!
It's just me, I don't know if it's the best way to go about it... But it's the way I would go about it.... I probably would've started by trying to disprove Isa 45:7, John 1:3 and Proverbs 16:4. Those are the verses I stood first and foremost with. He did briefly mention Isa 45:7 (by attacking the KJV), but that's about it.
Really the best arguement I got is by Aspen who seems to quote Augustine: "Evil is not a thing!" Really.... That's the best arguement I have heard.
justaname
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<p style="margin-left: 40px; ">[quote name='FHII' timestamp='1323728020' post='136856'] Yea pretty much. Veteran has given us a long personal philosophy of what he thinks Isa 10, 14 and Eze 28 and 31 mean. And other than his belief of free will and these verses are talking about Satan instead of a literal man on earth (which is the case for Isa 14, and Eze 28), I really don't see what the point is. As he said, His commentary isn't for me. I praise God for that! It's just me, I don't know if it's the best way to go about it... But it's the way I would go about it.... I probably would've started by trying to disprove Isa 45:7, John 1:3 and Proverbs 16:4. Those are the verses I stood first and foremost with. He did briefly mention Isa 45:7 (by attacking the KJV), but that's about it. Really the best arguement I got is by Aspen who seems to quote Augustine: "Evil is not a thing!" Really.... That's the best arguement I have heard. [/quote]</p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; ">I suppose Proverbs 16:4 is one I wouldn't try to challenge either from the other position either. Vividly it is explained that God created the wicked to perish. He stabs at the weak point in the translation in Isaiah, but calamities are pretty descriptive also.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; ">As for "evil is not a thing", well it exists on earth. That is pretty real to me. We have wicked and righteous, both in grace. The righteous plead for the wicked to repent, while the wicked are defiant. There are evil things, like Satan, atomic bombs, biological weapons. I argue situations are real in a very physical sense. Evil people create evil situations.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; ">Like my Lord I pray for deliverance from evil.<img alt=":mellow:" class="bbc_emoticon" src="http://www.christianityboard.com/public/style_emoticons/default/mellow.png" title=":mellow:" /></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; ">Bind that devil LORD please! Take away evil and his evil things please Abba. In Jesus' name. Thank you, amen. </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
Well that posted all weird.
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; ">I suppose Proverbs 16:4 is one I wouldn't try to challenge either from the other position either. Vividly it is explained that God created the wicked to perish. He stabs at the weak point in the translation in Isaiah, but calamities are pretty descriptive also.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; ">As for "evil is not a thing", well it exists on earth. That is pretty real to me. We have wicked and righteous, both in grace. The righteous plead for the wicked to repent, while the wicked are defiant. There are evil things, like Satan, atomic bombs, biological weapons. I argue situations are real in a very physical sense. Evil people create evil situations.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; ">Like my Lord I pray for deliverance from evil.<img alt=":mellow:" class="bbc_emoticon" src="http://www.christianityboard.com/public/style_emoticons/default/mellow.png" title=":mellow:" /></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; ">Bind that devil LORD please! Take away evil and his evil things please Abba. In Jesus' name. Thank you, amen. </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; "> </p>
Well that posted all weird.
justaname
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Proverbs 16:4 is a strong verse for our understanding, creating the wicked for destruction, I mean come on. God creating "all" things, written more than once throughout the bible, is something else difficult to side step. And I can name some evil things like atom bombs, chemical and biological weapons. In fact every evil thing created for evil purposes is intrinsically evil.
Evil exists in a very real sense. Evil would fall under the "all" category.
Evil exists in a very real sense. Evil would fall under the "all" category.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
If evil is an actual force, it had to be created by God and if that is true, He is culpable. That is why it is important to realize the true nature of evil - a corruption of the good.
Yes, Proverbs 16:4 is one that requires one has more of an abundance of God's wisdom to understand.
I will give you that much.
"hath made" <H6466> pa`al -- pronounced: paw-al' --a primitive root; to do or make (systematically and habitually), especially to practise: KJV -- commit, (evil-) do(-er), make(-r), ordain, work(-er).
When one confuses the phrase "hath made" as rendered in the KJV and many other Bible versions with the word "made" as in Genesis chapter one they do not have a prayer to understand what it says.
[Yong's Literal Translation] Proverbs 16:4 "All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself, And also the wicked worketh for a day of evil."
[Darby's Version] Proverbs 16:4 "Jehovah hath wrought everything on his own account, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
The word "made" in Genesis is <H6213> `asah
It has entirely different meaning.
God directs the steps of the righteous so as to help them find life.
He also helps the wicked reach the destination their hearts choose to take them, causing them to reap what they sow and perhaps to repent.
But if they will not repent, then he has wrought them to destruction.
I particularly like the Darby's Version rendering "hath wrought everything on his own account", as that cues us to compare the thought to what Paul said about Pharaoh in Romans chapter 9.
Romans 9:17-18 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
I particularly like your comment here as it gets closer to something I have been wanting to discuss but which I have held back as I did not feel I was finding anyone ready to understand it.
That involves an almost magical idea that many have about how we find power in Christ to do works of righteousness and even about how we become that new creation.
I have been laying seeds around the threads working that discussions direction.
I have spoken about how words have the power to create ideas in us which cause us to work out the spirit of those words in our life.
I believe you will find one such post I made in the thread, The Trolly Experiment.
Much of peoples' adding to the scripture comes innocently with child-like imagination that is common to all.
Until we sort that away we tend to see things rather fancifully rather than as they really are.
God is not angry with us for that.
But we must mature if we are to be able to gain the full benefit from His words.
And what happens is that they feel confused when I begin to speak of the reality to them and they shy away from before they can understand what I am trying to tell them.
And for some it is fear because they initially do not understand and so they imagine that means I might be misleading them. So though tread backward and away me from for that reason.
Imagination is a subtle and powerful thing. It is subtle in that like the child thinks what it imagines is real, they also do not know they are only imagining things about me. To them it seems real and it has been bolstered by a long line of imaginary reasoning which is difficult to comfort and allay so as to help them see through it.
It is really an innocent thing albeit very subtle and powerful.
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Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
I find it amazing how many are willing to ignore the simple truth there at Genesis 1:31 in favor of an idea that God created (passed tense as from the get-go) evil.
Isaiah 45:7 does not say He "created evil" (past tense); Isaiah 45:7 says I "create evil" (present tense)
These guys are like a man who is convinced a food tastes horrible and so refuse to give it a try.
These guys are like a man who believes a pearl of knowledge is false and so approach looking at it already scoffing at it so that they never really see it.
justaname
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Never. We can not blame God for anything. Remember we were created for His purposes not our own. We do have free will, that is why we spread the gospel. Those who rebel against God are doing what is natural to them, evil. Those who align themselves with God's will, submit their will to Him freely, that is why we are called bond-servants. We become agents for good yet all the glory still belongs to God.
Yes, Proverbs 16:4 is one that requires one has more of an abundance of God's wisdom to understand. I will give you that much.
What is funny is you chose to omit the definition of wrought so I will post it for you.
Wrought
A past tense and a past participle of work.
adj. 1. Put together; created: a carefully wrought plan.
2. Shaped by hammering with tools. Used chiefly of metals or metalwork.
3. Made delicately or elaborately.
Yes the wicked are a part of God's plan. They are those who partake in the second death.
From the first description we have put together or created. I can not see where the second definition applies except metaphorically. The third is made delicately or elaborately.
I agree God did make the wicked. He also made the righteous.
That does not make Him culpable, for we do not know what it is to create anything, let alone make a universe with free will. If you think you can do a better job why don't you give it a whirl. Again you have no authority to judge God! Think of it this way, if God did not create in the manner He did you would not exist.
God directs the steps of the righteous so as to help them find life.
He also helps the wicked reach the destination their hearts choose to take them, causing them to reap what they sow and perhaps to repent.
But if they will not repent, then he has wrought them to destruction.
I particularly like the Darby's Version rendering "hath wrought everything on his own account", as that cues us to compare the thought to what Paul said about Pharaoh in Romans chapter 9.
Romans 9:17-18 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
In this I agree as it supports my view that God is the sovereign creator.
Ultimately it is God who opens our hearts to receive Him, that is why some receive the gospel and others do not. God searches the hearts and minds of men, and nothing is hidden from Him.
From Genesis 1 God's creation is very good. By Genesis 3 we see the fall of man, and arguably Satan's fall also. God's plan is/was always in place from before creation.
Scripture is very clear in this.
Oh boy, another one that refuses to reason.
I showed how he wrought to reach the goal and of course the work is behind the end result.
You are too smart to see.
That does not make it clear back to the beginning.
The work to get someone to a specific place is always behind the getting them there. :lol:
So what you said is valueless.
The point remains it is not saying "made" as in the physical creation of man. That word cannot be used to suggest that. It refers to a different kind or working with. Not anything to do with that kind of creating.
And the only way Romans 9:17-18 supports your view is again by incorrect interpretation. It is speaking only of raising Pharaoh to the power of a throne.
Romans 9:17-18 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up [to power], that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
Look justaname, it is saying what was done for Pharaoh is as Paul says at Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."
And why did God do that? So He could demonstrate His power over these mighty worldly nations.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Now you got me razzled aspen? As in confused :lol:
I like the way you did that. Evidently the Blue is justaname and the regular are my comments?
that turned out pretty good.
I really have only the one objection to what he says in that he says God created literally "all evil" unless I have misunderstood him?
Did he not argue that in this post as follows?
That is not what we want to teach the world as it only makes people hate God.
It is not about our judging God. In fact it is my belief that one who believes the Bible says God created literally "all evil" are doing at the very least three things wrong.
(1) They are showing a horrible lack of love in teaching an idea that is bound to turn many away from God (even if that is not their realization or intention).
(2) They are horribly misinterpreting the scriptures that lead them to that conclusion.
(3)They are maligning God through a false presentation of him to the eyes of the world to whom we are supposed to be God's light to show forth His love (and that again whether or not they realize they are doing it).
I like the way you did that. Evidently the Blue is justaname and the regular are my comments?
that turned out pretty good.
I really have only the one objection to what he says in that he says God created literally "all evil" unless I have misunderstood him?
Did he not argue that in this post as follows?
That is not what we want to teach the world as it only makes people hate God.
It is not about our judging God. In fact it is my belief that one who believes the Bible says God created literally "all evil" are doing at the very least three things wrong.
(1) They are showing a horrible lack of love in teaching an idea that is bound to turn many away from God (even if that is not their realization or intention).
(2) They are horribly misinterpreting the scriptures that lead them to that conclusion.
(3)They are maligning God through a false presentation of him to the eyes of the world to whom we are supposed to be God's light to show forth His love (and that again whether or not they realize they are doing it).
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
No, I have the copy on my desktop because I made that post in my Microsoft word and then cut and paste it. A large portion of that is a post that I made and posted but am now having problems finding in the thread.
But I have the proof on my desktop.
crazy hey :lol:
I found it. It was post #150.
I see what happened is he did not box my words in his post #154 and neither did he use quotations.
If you compare it to my post #150 it is clear.
That made it confusing for you !!! :lol:
Don't you love a good mystery!!!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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