Job...

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THE Gypsy

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Since we do not completely know the mind of God and since his ways are not our ways...This is not necessarily for a "Bible study" as much as it is for "opinion"...

Job was a man of God. I don't believe anyone would disagree with that. Satan asked permission to torture, torment and destroy Job (physically) and God said "OK". Job suffered greatly. He lost all material possessions, his health, his family was killed, and he was basically a tramp on the streets. ANYHOW...IYO...Why do you think God allowed this to happen? To prove something to Satan? To us? An example? Does anyone view this as, for lack of a better phrase, God playing games with the mans life? How do you see "God's compassion and provision" applying to this particular equation?


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FHII

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What's even stranger is that Satan didn't ask God to allow him to do those things until God brought his name up. It is a tough question and I don't know of a Biblical answer. The best I can do is say that it was to show Satan and us what a man can do and go through if he loves God. It certainly must've hurt Satan's feelings when he couldn't even beat a mere mortal man who God watches out for.
 

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That's a tough one, and I'm not going to pretend to explain it away with a simple all-knowing answer.

However, I think the message of the book provides a hint, if not an outright answer. In all of the mess, what was most important to God?

It begins in Job 38 - right here in fact where job is instructed to put on his big-boy underwear:

Job 38:3
Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

In the old school language, gird your loins. Get ready for something that you'll not be able to handle is what he's telling Job.

Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the Lord and said:
"I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
'Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.'
I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes."

It's not an easy and settling answer, but the answer to your question would seem to be that all of this is counted as absolutely nothing - it's all a vapor in the wind. What is eternal and what matters is that Job, in all of his righteousness, recognizes that he is absolutely nothing in the site of God. God's rhetorical questions in the preceeding passages is all to hammer home the point that we are the creation, we were not there at the beginning like Jesus and we ultimately need a Savior.

We see the death and destruction of Job's family, for instance, from the perspective of Job in only a snapshot with God. He has individual relationships with people and we do not know the biographies and the like because it's not relevant to what God wants us to know here.

God enables this sort of thing because it's a part of his purpose. It became a book of the Bible that instructs us, but it also placed Job in one heck of a relationship with his Creator. We don't understand things like Job did/does.
 

Selene

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Since we do not completely know the mind of God and since his ways are not our ways...This is not necessarily for a "Bible study" as much as it is for "opinion"...

Job was a man of God. I don't believe anyone would disagree with that. Satan asked permission to torture, torment and destroy Job (physically) and God said "OK". Job suffered greatly. He lost all material possessions, his health, his family was killed, and he was basically a tramp on the streets. ANYHOW...IYO...Why do you think God allowed this to happen? To prove something to Satan? To us? An example? Does anyone view this as, for lack of a better phrase, God playing games with the mans life? How do you see "God's compassion and provision" applying to this particular equation?


smilie_girl_352.gif

From the story of Job, we learned some things about who God is. First of all, we know that even Satan is subject under God and cannot just do whatever he wants. Even he has to obey God. When God tells him not to take Job's life, Satan did as He was told. So, we can take comfort in the fact that Satan is a creature subject under God and is limited in certain things.

Secondly, we know that God allows evil to happen because He respects the freedom of all his creatures. God does not cause evil, but He permits it and only God can use it for man's benefit. For example, the greatest evil ever committed was killing God's son Jesus, but from this God brought us redemption. However, evil is still evil. Killing an innocent man is still evil.

In the third place, the lesson learned in Job's case is that we should thank God in allowing offenses in our lives. Realize that you are not thanking God for the offenses, but for His good and overriding purposes in allowing them to take place. God is not responsible for the wrongdoing of those who hurt you; however, He has promised that He will use their wrath to benefit your life. If anything contrary happens, people often ask, "Why did God let this happen?" Such an atittude is sure to cause bitterness, just as it did in Job's life. When Job's wife saw her husband's miserable condition, she said to him, "Curse God and die." (Job 2:9). Job's response was significant. He replied, "Are even you going to speak as senseless women do? We accept good things from God; and should we not accept evil? Through all this, Job said nothing sinful. (Job 2:10).

Finally, the lesson taught in Job is to view your offender as God's agent. An important basis for forgiving offenders is seeing them not as Independent people attacking you, but as God allowing it to happen to accomplish His particular purpose in your life. This perspective made it possible for Job, Joseph, and David to forgive their offenders. Job was a peaceful man and well respected. One day, evil raiders from a tribe known as the Sabeans made a surprise attack on his possessions and family. That same day, three bands of Chaldeans also attacked his cattle and men. Job's response was to fall upon the ground and worship God and say, "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." (Job 1:21).

Joseph came to his brothers in peace following the command of his father. His brothers grabbed him, threw him into a cistern and sold him as a slave to the Egyptians. Joseph's response was "Even though you meant harm to me, God meant it for good, to achieve His present end, the survival of many people." (Genesis 50:20). The Lord Jesus came into the world as Prince of Peace. He lived withtou sin and brought love and blessings wherever He went. He was scourged and beaten and yet was able to say, "Father forgive them, they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34).

By viewing the one who hurt you as simply an instrument under the control of a wise and loving heavenly Father, you remove the possibility of being bitter towards the offender. Through suffering, one learns humility and forgiveness.
 
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Redeemed86

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Finally, the lesson taught in Job is to view your offender as God's agent. An important basis for forgiving offenders is seeing them not as Independent people attacking you, but as God allowing it to happen to accomplish His particular purpose in your life. This perspective made it possible for Job, Joseph, and David to forgive their offenders. Job was a peaceful man and well respected. One day, evil raiders from a tribe known as the Sabeans made a surprise attack on his possessions and family. That same day, three bands of Chaldeans also attacked his cattle and men. Job's response was to fall upon the ground and worship God and say, "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." (Job 1:21).

Joseph came to his brothers in peace following the command of his father. His brothers grabbed him, threw him into a cistern and sold him as a slave to the Egyptians. Joseph's response was "Even though you meant harm to me, God meant it for good, to achieve His present end, the survival of many people." (Genesis 50:20). The Lord Jesus came into the world as Prince of Peace. He lived withtou sin and brought love and blessings wherever He went. He was scourged and beaten and yet was able to say, "Father forgive them, they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34).

By viewing the one who hurt you as simply an instrument under the control of a wise and loving heavenly Father, you remove the possibility of being bitter towards the offender. Through suffering, one learns humility and forgiveness.

Selene, this part of your post really spoke to me. Someone said something about me a couple days ago that got to me. It was arrogant and seemed to come out of nowhere. I knew Satan was written all over it. I was trying hard not to let it bother me, but I just couldn't get past it for some reason.

Thank you, I definitely needed to see that.
God never ceases to amaze me with his timing of things.
 

aspen

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Since we do not completely know the mind of God and since his ways are not our ways...This is not necessarily for a "Bible study" as much as it is for "opinion"...

Job was a man of God. I don't believe anyone would disagree with that. Satan asked permission to torture, torment and destroy Job (physically) and God said "OK". Job suffered greatly. He lost all material possessions, his health, his family was killed, and he was basically a tramp on the streets. ANYHOW...IYO...Why do you think God allowed this to happen? To prove something to Satan? To us? An example? Does anyone view this as, for lack of a better phrase, God playing games with the mans life? How do you see "God's compassion and provision" applying to this particular equation?


smilie_girl_352.gif

Great question! If this was a story about morality - God would be diagnosed as having a personality disorder - His character would be flawed. Fortunately, it is simply a story about His Sovereignty - it is supposed to convey that through all circumstances we can still remain faithful to the One who is always faithful to us (even when life falls apart and it appears that God is abandoning or even attacking us) AND that He is the Supreme Father that knows everything/is in control/takes away our anxiety about things we were never created to have to understand or worry about. In Attachment Theory, our parents need to be seen as all knowing by their kids so that they do not feel like they have to be the adult - if they do become the adult, they develop destructive behaviors to sooth their anxiety, attach to everyone they meet equally, but not deeply and play out all kinds of dangerous and destructive behaviors that can last for a lifetime.

God is telling us in the story of Job that He is the Good Parent, who is faithful and reliable and all knowing - He will see us through all the tragedies in life.
 
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"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shell receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him" James 1, 12.
God give them, who move themselves for perfection, possibilities to test themselves. Without tests men can come to their own pride - high opinion about themselves. But because temptations men feel their weakness and the necessity to seek the help of God.
"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of Gog" - [St.Matthew 5, 3] - Those men, who have a low opinion about themselves, that they have nothing themselves but seek of God, then they mourn, but pray and cry to God more and more and then -
"Blessed are they that mourn: for they shell be comforted" [St.Matthew 5,4) (the Bible KJV)
Modern comfortable life make many of men to forgive to see own sins and to forgive to seek for permission ones and then to find a comfort of God. So st. apostle Paul said for having ones to be like non-having ones (I type from memory). (When man feel himself so, then, for example, he easier take his own thing or time for help to needing and does not suffer after loss his things or money.
 

FHII

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Great question! If this was a story about morality - God would be diagnosed as having a personality disorder - His character would be flawed. Fortunately, it is simply a story about His Sovereignty - it is supposed to convey that through all circumstances we can still remain faithful to the One who is always faithful to us (even when life falls apart and it appears that God is abandoning or even attacking us) AND that He is the Supreme Father that knows everything/is in control/takes away our anxiety about things we were never created to have to understand or worry about. In Attachment Theory, our parents need to be seen as all knowing by their kids so that they do not feel like they have to be the adult - if they do become the adult, they develop destructive behaviors to sooth their anxiety, attach to everyone they meet equally, but not deeply and play out all kinds of dangerous and destructive behaviors that can last for a lifetime.

God is telling us in the story of Job that He is the Good Parent, who is faithful and reliable and all knowing - He will see us through all the tragedies in life.
I get the feeling you think this was just a story and didn't happen.... Yet you seem to be quoting CS Lewis quite a bit.... As if what he wrote did happen.
 

aspen

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I get the feeling you think this was just a story and didn't happen.... Yet you seem to be quoting CS Lewis quite a bit.... As if what he wrote did happen.

I don't care if it happened or not. I believe it is inspired. I do think it is interesting that you seem to be concerned about it.

I like the writings of CS Lewis. Prelandra is a fantasy novel - I do not believe the events really happened.
 

FHII

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I don't care if it happened or not. I believe it is inspired. I do think it is interesting that you seem to be concerned about it.

I like the writings of CS Lewis. Prelandra is a fantasy novel - I do not believe the events really happened.
Yea... I take great concern in the Bible. It's just me... Perhaps I'm crazy.... But I think it's all true! I believe that there was a fella named Job who went through some heavy stuff.

So yea... It's just fascinating to think that God was actually telling us what happened with Him, Satan and Job! I actually do care whether it happened or not. I'd rather not think God is a liar. He told this tale, and I believe it. Much like I believe that there was something special about a.... certain..... tree.....

Truth be known, I've read the Screwtape Letters and heard a reading of another book by CS Lewis... I like him. Great insights! But I am not about to include a fantasy writer who is pretty good with the Holy Men of Old. I don't think CS himself would either. Yet, lately, you are quoting the works of CS Lewis more than the Bible, and have even downgraded the Bible to a degree.



Haven't you?
 

aspen

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Yea... I take great concern in the Bible. It's just me... Perhaps I'm crazy.... But I think it's all true! I believe that there was a fella named Job who went through some heavy stuff.

So yea... It's just fascinating to think that God was actually telling us what happened with Him, Satan and Job! I actually do care whether it happened or not. I'd rather not think God is a liar. He told this tale, and I believe it. Much like I believe that there was something special about a.... certain..... tree.....

Truth be known, I've read the Screwtape Letters and heard a reading of another book by CS Lewis... I like him. Great insights! But I am not about to include a fantasy writer who is pretty good with the Holy Men of Old. I don't think CS himself would either. Yet, lately, you are quoting the works of CS Lewis more than the Bible, and have even downgraded the Bible to a degree.



Haven't you?

I think it is all true too and inspired, but I do not force myself to believe all the events in the Bible really happened. Song of Songs, Psalms, the Creation Story, The Flood account, Jonah, Job, The Book of Wisdom, Proverbs, Sodom and Gomorrah, all have more in common with ancient literature than ancient accounts of real events. Sorry - it is true. So, what does this matter? Do you only value real events? Seems to me that God is a fan of parables and stories to bring accross His point. This sounds like more of a faith issue for you rather than any attack on the Bible.
 

FHII

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So which is it? Do you believe the events in Job happened, or is it just a fable? And yea.... I only value real events. I only value truth. Fables ain't truth.
 

aspen

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So which is it? Do you believe the events in Job happened, or is it just a fable? And yea.... I only value real events. I only value truth. Fables ain't truth.

Did you read my last post? Your comment tells me that you didn't bother.
 

FHII

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Did you read my last post? Your comment tells me that you didn't bother.
Yes, I read your last post. That's why I commented on it. You said that you believe scripture is true, then said you don't think they are really accounts of events. Seems like a contradiction to me.....
 

aspen

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Yes, I read your last post. That's why I commented on it. You said that you believe scripture is true, then said you don't think they are really accounts of events. Seems like a contradiction to me.....

No contradiction.

Jesus told parables that are true, but didn't really happen.
 

FHII

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Who's to say they didn't happen? And if they didn't, does that mean Job didn't happen?
 

aspen

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Who's to say they didn't happen? And if they didn't, does that mean Job didn't happen?

Oh boy....are you suggesting that Jesus's parables are literal? Com'mon FHII....

"What is a parable? A parable is a fictitious or made up story designed to teach a lesson through comparison. When you hear the story, you can relate it to your own life. It is like an illustration for the points in a sermon. It conveys its message of truth through analogy, through comparison or contrast."

http://bible.org/ser...uction-parables

As far as Job is concerned:

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Book_of_Job

And before you scoff at wikipedia - go to the bottom of the article and look at the sources.
 

FHII

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I am not claiming they are literal events, but they could've been. Who knows? I'm more apt to believe them than some of the doctrines of Catholism, that's for sure.

So we have the parable of a mustard seed in Matthew 13. A man planted it, and it grew into a great tree. It's a small seed, though. Then Birds came and sat on it's branches.... Is this a fictious story? No man ever planted a mustard seed that didn't produce a great tree and birds came to it? Jesus then tells about leaven in bread that a woman baked. This never happened? A woman has never baked bread? I take back what I said, these things were common occurances in everyday life!

Now, you are dodging and arrow and not minding the bullet. You want to argue about "parables" (which obviously happened often) and then say they are fictious, and so you then figure Job is fictious.

Hey... Maybe David was too. Maybe the entire Bible is fictious and just meant to teach us to behave. Who knows... Maybe Jesus was made up too.

By what authority or reasoning can you say Job was a fictious event, if that's what you beleive?
 

aspen

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I am not claiming they are literal events, but they could've been. Who knows? I'm more apt to believe them than some of the doctrines of Catholism, that's for sure.

So we have the parable of a mustard seed in Matthew 13. A man planted it, and it grew into a great tree. It's a small seed, though. Then Birds came and sat on it's branches.... Is this a fictious story? No man ever planted a mustard seed that didn't produce a great tree and birds came to it? Jesus then tells about leaven in bread that a woman baked. This never happened? A woman has never baked bread? I take back what I said, these things were common occurances in everyday life!

Now, you are dodging and arrow and not minding the bullet. You want to argue about "parables" (which obviously happened often) and then say they are fictious, and so you then figure Job is fictious.

Hey... Maybe David was too. Maybe the entire Bible is fictious and just meant to teach us to behave. Who knows... Maybe Jesus was made up too.

By what authority or reasoning can you say Job was a fictious event, if that's what you beleive?

I believe Jesus when He calls His stories parables - I gave the definition of a parable.

As far as Job is concerned, there could have been a guy named Job and he may have lost everything and remained faithful to God, but who cares? Are you prepared to throw out the story if you find out one day that it was just an inspired story? I am not.

And no, the parables (except for the parable of Lazarus; which actually names the person) are moral stories. I am 99% sure Job is a story about God's sovereignty. I am 1000% sure that trying ti determine if the story really happen or not is missing the point of the story.

There is no evidence outside the Bible that supports the existence of David - He may have lived - he may have been a folk hero. I am not going to dismiss it if it isn't literally true.

You can follow my link above to read about Job.
 

THE Gypsy

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Some interesting input...Thanks all...

Since I seem to be in the "Job phase" of life, I've been doing an indepth study of the book. One thing that has jumped out at me is Job's "friends". There is a lot to be learned by their behavior. One of them even admitted he couldn't discern which spirit he was getting information from and STILL he felt compelled, and justified, to give Job incorrect counsel.

Sometimes...It's just better to keep your mouth shut.
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