Job...

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justaname

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I believe Jesus when He calls His stories parables - I gave the definition of a parable. As far as Job is concerned, there could have been a guy named Job and he may have lost everything and remained faithful to God, but who cares? Are you prepared to throw out the story if you find out one day that it was just an inspired story? I am not. And no, the parables (except for the parable of Lazarus; which actually names the person) are moral stories. I am 99% sure Job is a story about God's sovereignty. I am 1000% sure that trying ti determine if the story really happen or not is missing the point of the story. There is no evidence outside the Bible that supports the existence of David - He may have lived - he may have been a folk hero. I am not going to dismiss it if it isn't literally true. You can follow my link above to read about Job.

Sorry not to derail the post, but I read something here rather alarming. Remember it is David that is given the eternal promise and Jesus who is the fulfillment of that promise. So yes it is very important to know and even believe David being a real figure or not. To discount the bible a folklore is a common misconception or this worlds view. It is said by Paul if you feel yourself wise with this world's knowledge to count it as foolishness.(paraphrased) I reject the knowledge of this world to receive the wisdom of God, which is Christ crucified and risen, given all authority over the universe.



To speak on Job, I feel I should as this is the thread. The book of Job speaks of the authority of a God who is in control of everything. As posted earlier we are a blink in the sight of God, so this life aside from salvation provided by the Lord, is truly nothing. Sure He cares for us in the physical, yet it is in the spirt and soul where His true concern is. For us to endure what this world views as suffering, is to gain in the Lord. Again from Paul suffering creates perseverance. Romans 5:3-5

Remember the words of our Eternal Father who is in Heaven.
Rev 2:9-10

I feel the most beautiful verse that sums up Genesis is this Genesis 50:20
Thanks Selene and HammerStone for your posts!
 

Hollyrock

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Since we do not completely know the mind of God and since his ways are not our ways...This is not necessarily for a "Bible study" as much as it is for "opinion"...

Job was a man of God. I don't believe anyone would disagree with that. Satan asked permission to torture, torment and destroy Job (physically) and God said "OK". Job suffered greatly. He lost all material possessions, his health, his family was killed, and he was basically a tramp on the streets. ANYHOW...IYO...Why do you think God allowed this to happen? To prove something to Satan? To us? An example? Does anyone view this as, for lack of a better phrase, God playing games with the mans life? How do you see "God's compassion and provision" applying to this particular equation?


smilie_girl_352.gif
It can't be that God was playing mind games because He does'nt do that...He remains a just God no matter what He allows to happen. And whatever He allows to happen, He will use for our good and for His Glory and perhaps to even remind satan of his limitations. It was with compassion and provision that God loved, protected and saved Job and that serves as encouragement to us in our times of trouble...that God is in control.
 

aspen

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Some interesting input...Thanks all...

Since I seem to be in the "Job phase" of life, I've been doing an indepth study of the book. One thing that has jumped out at me is Job's "friends". There is a lot to be learned by their behavior. One of them even admitted he couldn't discern which spirit he was getting information from and STILL he felt compelled, and justified, to give Job incorrect counsel.

Sometimes...It's just better to keep your mouth shut.
smilie_girl_303.gif

Now, this is the kind of thoughtfulness and teaching that I am interested in from the Book of Job! Great insight, Gypsy!

I've missed your posts!
 

aspen

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Sorry not to derail the post, but I read something here rather alarming. Remember it is David that is given the eternal promise and Jesus who is the fulfillment of that promise. So yes it is very important to know and even believe David being a real figure or not. To discount the bible a folklore is a common misconception or this worlds view. It is said by Paul if you feel yourself wise with this world's knowledge to count it as foolishness.(paraphrased) I reject the knowledge of this world to receive the wisdom of God, which is Christ crucified and risen, given all authority over the universe.



To speak on Job, I feel I should as this is the thread. The book of Job speaks of the authority of a God who is in control of everything. As posted earlier we are a blink in the sight of God, so this life aside from salvation provided by the Lord, is truly nothing. Sure He cares for us in the physical, yet it is in the spirt and soul where His true concern is. For us to endure what this world views as suffering, is to gain in the Lord. Again from Paul suffering creates perseverance. Romans 5:3-5

Remember the words of our Eternal Father who is in Heaven.
Rev 2:9-10

I feel the most beautiful verse that sums up Genesis is this Genesis 50:20
Thanks Selene and HammerStone for your posts!

Good insight on Job - thanks!

I think you are right about the dangers of mythologizing the OT - it is important to recognize the historical truths in the OT and the NT. That being said, I have moved beyond the question of true and false regarding the Bible.

This does not mean that I am claiming to be advancing in my understanding of the Bible - it means, I am tired and bored of thinking about that question. I am tired of reading the scriptures and limiting my thoughts to 'did it happen or not?'. The Bible has so much more to teach than 'It happen! It really, really happened!'

Also, moving beyond whether the events happened or happened exactly how they are depicted does not mean that I am devaluing or throwing out the Bible as my authority. I love the Bible! I just happen to have a different focus, right now.

So, I appreciate that you raised your concerns about the dangers of viewing the OT as a myth - I think your concerns are real (not just true - har, har). I apologize if I have given the impression that the Bible is somehow not inspired or not our authority.

blessings
 

veteran

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There's several important lessons within Job.

Job 2:2-6
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst Me against him, to destroy him without cause.
4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth Thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse Thee to thy face.
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
(KJV)

With the above, God is actually bragging on Job's faithfulness when He speaks to Satan. Satan then tempts God to touch Job betting that Job will curse God eventually through trials and temptations. That's something very deep to consider, because it's like God was intending to prove something to Satan by seeming to accept a challenge (which really was no challenge to God), and He obviously wanted us to know about it since this was before Job's testing had begun.


Job 2:9-10
9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
(KJV)

Job's own wife spoke as if she believed Job was guilty of some offense which had caused his trials.


Job 4:6-9
6 Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways?
7 Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?
8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
(KJV)

Job's three friends in the above also believed Job had done something wrong to deserve his trials. Yet they couldn't prove it.


Job 32:1-3
1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
(KJV)

A fourth spoke, Elihu, condemning Job's three friends because they condemned Job without cause, only assuming he was guilty of something to deserve such a trial.

Job petitioned God for the cause of his trials, showing Job thought to retain his own sense of righteousness, asking God to show him what it was he had done wrong. Job tried to retain his guiltlessness even while admitting God's Authority and Power over all things.


Job 40:6-8
6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn Me, that thou mayest be righteous?
(KJV)

Satan's testing upon Job wasn't originally about whether or not Job was a sinner, for all born in the flesh except The Christ have sinned, including Job. What God had bragged to Satan about was in regard to Job's original faithfulness to God. God's later rebuke to Job was because of Job holding to his own sense of righteousness and judgment of having done nothing wrong to deserve his trial.

In reality, Job truly had not done anything wrong to bring Satan's trial. The trial was a matter between God and Satan. Still doesn't mean Job was without sin.


Job 42:7-13
7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of Me the thing that is right, as My servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of Me the thing which is right, like My servant Job.
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
(KJV)

When it was all over, Job received a double-portion to make up for all that he had lost, which is a sign of a chosen elect servant of God. The lesson I see with that is, with those of God's servants which He already... owns... He will use and move them how He sees fit, and they will not be forgotten by Him.
 

ttruscott

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I'm the guy who thinks our existance started as spirits in the spirit realm before the foundation of the world.
JOB 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

When he claimed to be innocent, his friends told him he must be lying or mistaken and then they were rebuked by GOD for that attitude.

Yet later GOD called him a sinner. Do you think that this hints at a life in which he sinned before he was born on earth?

:)
 

Lively Stone

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I'm the guy who thinks our existance started as spirits in the spirit realm before the foundation of the world.
JOB 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

When he claimed to be innocent, his friends told him he must be lying or mistaken and then they were rebuked by GOD for that attitude.

Yet later GOD called him a sinner. Do you think that this hints at a life in which he sinned before he was born on earth?

:)

No. We have no life before the life we have now---Job included. We were only a 'gleam in our Father's eye'.
 

Wayne

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What I got out Job when I read is that God was showing us that Satan doesn't have any true power over us Chirstian. We need to strong in Lord father because he will gave us everything we need.
 

aspen

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I'm the guy who thinks our existance started as spirits in the spirit realm before the foundation of the world.
JOB 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

When he claimed to be innocent, his friends told him he must be lying or mistaken and then they were rebuked by GOD for that attitude.

Yet later GOD called him a sinner. Do you think that this hints at a life in which he sinned before he was born on earth?

:)

A Church Father named Origin was excommunicated for this idea.
 

ttruscott

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A Church Father named Origin was excommunicated for this idea.

Read Origen and you'll find the most horendous Christology ever written. He was excommunicated for castrating himself I believe but you may be right.

There are worse cults (and modern!) that also believe we existed before we were born. It is not all that out of the ordinary but as far as I know, none of them believe inthe full Protestant gospel like I do nor do they understand free will and election like I do. :)

Not many people know about ol' Origen, Father of Modern Theology! Are you Roman Catholic?
 

aspen

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Actually Origen was not the real problem - his students took his ideas and really went off the deep end. I learned from Steve that Origen probably did not castrate himself - in any case, he was excommunicated because of his beliefs about pre-existence of the soul. And probably for political reasons. as well.

Actually Origen was not the real problem - his students took his ideas and really went off the deep end. I learned from Steve that Origen probably did not castrate himself - in any case, he was excommunicated because of his beliefs about pre-existence of the soul. And probably for political reasons. as well. I also just read about Jerome and his arguments against Origen - he liked his teachings at first, but rejected them as heresy after getting into a heated debate with Rufinus (sp).