First the Rapture and then the Great Tribulations

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us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
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-- Not to put too fine a point on it, but I would give that same warning about the spirit of confusion to you, as well.

Then you would be fulfilling the spot of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes of the day of wrath. Not knowing the Spirit you are of.

Matthew 10
25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household!

1 Corinthians 2
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
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Agreed! Christ may come today...

Impossible. The only possible way this statement could be true is if a person dies - i.e., Christ came for that person. The book of Revelation clearly states that certain very dire things must happen and a certain time period must elapse before he returns. Also, Christ must return some time during the remaining 3 festivals. That is the pattern he laid out for his work during the first 4 festivals; and he will do nothing except he reveals it to his servants the prophets.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
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You will find in book of Revelation
3:10- Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
...
This show something coming up before the hour of temptation. That is how Rapture came about.

What Revelation 3:9-10 really says is:

Because you safeguard the word of my endurance, I also will be safeguarding you out of the hour of the trial about to come upon the whole inhabited land to try the ones dwelling upon the land. I am coming suddenly. Hold what you have so that no one takes your wreath.

In other words, the truth has sufficient strength to safeguard the elect from error in the midst of the hour of trial. All others will be caught in a snare.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
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What Revelation 3:9-10 really says is:

Because you safeguard the word of my endurance, I also will be safeguarding you out of the hour of the trial about to come upon the whole inhabited land to try the ones dwelling upon the land. I am coming suddenly. Hold what you have so that no one takes your wreath.

In other words, the truth has sufficient strength to safeguard the elect from error in the midst of the hour of trial. All others will be caught in a snare.

1 Corinthians 3
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 

teamventure

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2011
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The idea that Christ comes to 'rapture' His Church, and then great tribulation begins on earth, is not Scriptural. That's actually the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. It's a doctrine of men started in 1830's Britain by the Edward Irving Church and John Darby, and the witness taken from a hallucinogenic women on her deathbed known as Margaret McDonald. Others among the Brethren movement with Darby brought the doctrine to America, and study Bibles like Scofield's Bible were used to promote it. The majority Christian Church prior to the 1830's held to a post-tribulational return of our Lord Jesus and our gathering to Him, for around 1800 years.

The Christian historian Sandeen noted some brethren in Darby's church were Illuminati, and were going around loosely quoting Scripture (see Dave McPhearson's documented works like The Incredible Cover-Up).


The Hour Of Temptation Of Revelation 3:10...

There is NOTHING written in that Rev.3:10 verse that suggests a PHYSICAL removal of Christ's saints to be protected from that "hour of temptation".

That hour is about the coming of a false one the world will accept in place of our Lord Jesus, bowing to that false one instead by deception into thinking he is Christ having returned. Our Lord Jesus warned us about that in Matt.24:23-26, as Apostle Paul did also in 2 Thess.2, and as Christ warned us again through His Apostle John in Rev.12-13 especially.

If you don't know about that false one coming FIRST to play our Lord Jesus Christ, then... you are already subject to that "hour of temptation" when it comes. Thinking to be 'raptured' to Heaven is not a sign of being protected from that specific 'temptation'. It's about not being 'tempted' by that false one that comes first, not a physical fleeing.

so if you don't believe in the rapture then when do you believe Christ gathers his church and meets them in the air?
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
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so if you don't believe in the rapture then when do you believe Christ gathers his church and meets them in the air?

The KJV word "air" in 1 Thess.4:17 is not completely representative of what you've been taught it is.

Christ's second coming is AFTER the tribulation He taught of per Matt.24:29-31.

Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 that a great apostasy of believers and the antichrist revealed must occur first prior to Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. Just so happens that aligns perfectly with what our Lord Jesus taught in Matt.24:23-31 about a coming pseudo-Christ deception first, and then His return after the tribulation to gather us.

Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 the resurrection and those who remain on earth being changed at a twinklling of an eye occurs on the "last trump", which means the fartherest one out. The last Trumpet of our Lord's Book of Revelation is the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 occurs along with the time of the 3rd last Woe, with events that parallel the time of Christ's second coming.

Both Apostles Paul and Peter declared the time of Christ's second coming "as a thief" on the "day of the Lord" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10).

Within the 6th Vial, our Lord Jesus warns us that He comes "as a thief", and to stay on watch, and hold on to our garments lest we be found naked and walk in shame.

The 7th Vial is then poured out into the "air", with Christ's coming and judgment upon the host of Satan's armies at the battle of Armageddon. Thus Armageddon is the result of Christ's coming with His alseep saints to end the reign of Satan's host on earth, and thus ending the tribuation upon Christ's saints that are still alive on earth then.

Per 1 Thess.4, Paul said those of us who remain on earth will in no way precede ("prevent" per the Greek) the saints that have already died that are "asleep". In other words, those asleep saints return with our Lord Jesus, but we will remain on earth until the time of His return with them. And then, He will gather us within that timeframe of the 7th Vial being poured out into the "air".

Thus the idea of our being "caught up" (Greek 'harpazo') into the "air", is actually about the change at a twinkling of eye into our "spiritual body" which Paul also taught that occurs on the "last trump". It's within... that "spiritual body" state how Christ will gather those of us still alive on earth with Him and His alseep saints He brings with Him. And that gathering will take place at the area of Jerusalem on earth, to that great valley Zechariah 14 mentions. That is where the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city' will be established during Christ's Millennium reign per Rev.20.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
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Exsqueeze me? I have fact, you have opinion. You've already said that you don't want to know the truth in this matter.

Your last post to me included no facts of Scripture, nothing to back up your statements. Nor can you back up your last statement that I don't care about the truth. The pre-trib rapture doctrine is not a Biblical truth; it's not written.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
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Your last post to me included no facts of Scripture, nothing to back up your statements. Nor can you back up your last statement that I don't care about the truth. The pre-trib rapture doctrine is not a Biblical truth; it's not written.

Here's a fact of scripture in which I don't see anything about a great valley:

The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol, it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Zechariah 14:5, New Jerusalem Bible

I am well aware that you care about the truth. I was referring to one specific instance in which you seemed to prefer denial over an honest evaluation of the truth.
 

veteran

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Here's a fact of scripture in which I don't see anything about a great valley:

The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol, it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Zechariah 14:5, New Jerusalem Bible

I am well aware that you care about the truth. I was referring to one specific instance in which you seemed to prefer denial over an honest evaluation of the truth.


Hebrew in parenthesis; 9999 means added word for clarification...

Zech.14:4
And shall stand (amad)
His feet (regel)
in day (yowm)
that (huw)
upon (al)
mount of (har)
the Olives (zayith)
which (sher)
is (9999)
before (al paniym)
Jerusalem (Yaruwshaalaim)
on the east (miqedem)
and shall cleave (baqa)
mount of (har)
the Olives (zayith)
in the midst thereof (chetsiy)
toward the east (mizrach)
and toward the west (yarn)
and there shall be (9999)
a valley (geey)
great (gadowl)
very (me'od)
and shall remove (muwsh)
half of (chetsiy)
the mountain (har)
toward the north (tsaphown)
and half (chetsiy)
of it (9999)
toward the south (negeb)


Zech.14:5:
You shall flee (nuwc)
to (9999)
the valley of (geey)
the mountains; (haaray)
for (kiy)
shall reach (yagiya)
the valley of (geey)
the mountains (haariym)
unto ('el)
Azal (Aatsal)
....


Zech 14:4-5
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
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Zech 14:4-5
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)

What you posted is the fairy tale version. Just because it's in the "bible" doesn't mean it's the word of God.

Which version is the word of God?

King James
Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. Proverbs 11:31

LXX
If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? Proverbs 11:31
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
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What you posted is the fairy tale version. Just because it's in the "bible" doesn't mean it's the word of God.

Which version is the word of God?

You said you didn't see anything... written in the Scripture about a great valley. I showed you per the Scripture that it exists as written, but you still deny, even with making an ignorant statement that just because it's written in The Bible doesn't mean it's God's Word??? You're beyond help with such a statement.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
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You said you didn't see anything... written in the Scripture about a great valley. I showed you per the Scripture that it exists as written, but you still deny, even with making an ignorant statement that just because it's written in The Bible doesn't mean it's God's Word??? You're beyond help with such a statement.

Sorry. I wasn't very clear. I was trying to demonstrate that your own belief contradicts itself. You propose that the King James version (or whatever Masoretic Text version you use) of Zechariah 14:4 is correct because of your belief that it is the word of God. The two verses below appear in the King James and LXX versions. Which one contains the words of God as penned by Solomon?

King James
Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. Proverbs 11:31

LXX
If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? Proverbs 11:31
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
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Sorry. I wasn't very clear. I was trying to demonstrate that your own belief contradicts itself. You propose that the King James version (or whatever Masoretic Text version you use) of Zechariah 14:4 is correct because of your belief that it is the word of God. The two verses below appear in the King James and LXX versions. Which one contains the words of God as penned by Solomon?

I know man, we've had this discussion about the Septuagint before, haven't we?

I pretty much agree with Fausset on the points of both reliability and unreliability of the old Septuagint...


SEPTUAGINT
Designated Septuagint The Greek version of Old Testament, made for the Greek speaking (Hellenistic) Jews at Alexandria. The oldest manuscripts in capitals (uncials) are the Cottonian (fragments) in British Museum; Vatican (representing especially the oldest text) at Rome; Alexandrian in British Museum, of which Baber in 1816 published a facsimile; Sinaitic at Petersburgh. Alexandrian is of the fifth century, the others are of the fourth. The ancient text current before Origen was called "the common one"; he compared this with the versions of Aquila, Theodotion, and Symmachus, and marked the Septuagint with an obelos mark where he found superfluous words, and supplied deficiencies of Septuagint from those three, prefixing an asterisk.*

Its wide circulation among Hellenistic Jews before Christ providentially prepared the way for the gospel. Its completion was commemorated by a yearly feast at Alexandria (Philo, Vit. Mos. 2). Its general use is proved by the manner of its quotation in New Testament. The Jews in Justin Martyr's Apology questioned its accuracy. A letter of Aristeas to his brother Philocrates (Hody, Bibl. Text. Orig., 1705) describes the origin of Septuagint; King Ptolemy (Philadelphus), by the advice of his librarian Demetrius Phalereus, obtained from the high priest at Jerusalem 72 interpreters, six from each tribe; by conference and comparison in 72 days they completed the work. Aristobulus (second century B.C., in Clemens Alex. Strom.) says that, before Demetrius, others had made a translation of the Pentateuch and Joshua (the history of the going forth from Egypt, etc.). Aristeas' letter is probably a forgery of an Alexandrian Jew; nevertheless the story gave its title to the Septuagint (70, the round number for 72).

The composition at Alexandria begun under the earlier Ptolemies, 280 B.C.; the Pentateuch alone at first; these are the main facts well established. The Alexandrian Macedonic Greek forms in the Septuagint disprove the coming of 72 interpreters from Jerusalem, and show that the translators were Alexandrian Jews. The Pentateuch is the best part of the version, being the first translated; the other books betray increasing degeneracy of the Hebrew manuscripts, with decay of Hebrew learning. The Septuagint translators did not have Hebrew manuscripts pointed as ours; nor were their words divided as ours. Different persons translated different books, and no general revision harmonized the whole. Names are differently rendered in different books. The poetical parts (except Psalms and Proverbs) are inferior to the historical. In the greater prophets important passages are misunderstood, as Isa 9:1,6; Jer 23:6; Ezekiel and the lesser prophets are better. Theodotion's version of Daniel was substituted for Septuagint, which was not used. The delicate details of the Hebrew are sacrificed in Septuagint, the same word in the same chapter being often rendered by differing words, and differing words by the same word, the names of God (Yahweh (OT:3068), Kurios (NT:2962), and 'Elohiym (OT:430), Theos (NT:2316)) being confounded; and proper names at times being translated, and Hebrew words mistaken for words like in form but altogether different in sense (sh being mistaken for s, shin for sin, r for d, resh for daleth). Some of the changes are designed (see OLD TESTAMENT): Gen 2:2, "sixth" for "seventh." Strong Hebrew expressions are softened, "God's power" for "hand," "word" for "mouth"; so no stress can be laid on the Septuagint words to prove a point.

Use of Septuagint. Being made from manuscripts older far than our Masoretic text (from 280 to 180 B.C.), it helps towards arriving at the true text in doubtful passages; so Ps 22:16, where Septuagint "they pierced" gives the true reading instead of "as a lion," Aquila a Jew (A.D. 133) so translated "they disfigured"; (Ps 16:10) "Thy Holy One" singular, instead of our Masoretic "Thy holy ones." The Septuagint is an impartial witness, being ages before the controversy between Jews and Christians. In Gen 4:8 Septuagint has "and Cain said to Abel his brother, Let us go into the plain" or "field" (so Samaritan Pentateuch); but Aquila, Symmachus, Theodotion, and the Targum of Onkelos agree with our Hebrew. Of 350 quotations of the Old Testament in the New Testament only 50 differ materially from Septuagint Its language molded the conceptions of the New Testament writers and preachers. The Hebrew ideas and modes of thought are transfused into its Greek, which is wholly distinct from classic Greek in this. Expressions unknown to the latter are intelligible from Septuagint, as "believe in God," "faith toward God," "flesh," "spirit," "justify," "fleshly mindedness." "The Passover" includes the after feast and sacrifices (Deut 16:2), illustrating the question on what day Christ kept it (John 18:28).
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright ©1998 by Biblesoft)


I also have a big problem with lot of the ideas that went on among the Alexandrian school in Egypt, as opposed to the Massorah, which is where the OT text for the KJV is derived.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
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I know man, we've had this discussion about the Septuagint before, haven't we?
I pretty much agree with Fausset on the points of both reliability and unreliability of the old Septuagint...
...
I also have a big problem with lot of the ideas that went on among the Alexandrian school in Egypt, as opposed to the Massorah, which is where the OT text for the KJV is derived.

Yes, we have had a discussion about the LXX before. Fausset makes some good points, and the Alexandrian school may have had some squirrelly ideas.

I can demonstrate, however, that your belief that Massoretic Text based bibles are always right contradicts itself. All you have to do is identify which verse below is the word of God as penned by Solomon. One comes from the Masoretic Text, the other from the LXX. I'm not trying to get one over on you. I'm just trying to point out that we can't always assume the Masoretic text is right.

King James
Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. Proverbs 11:31

LXX
If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? Proverbs 11:31
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
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Yes, we have had a discussion about the LXX before. Fausset makes some good points, and the Alexandrian school may have had some squirrelly ideas.

I can demonstrate, however, that your belief that Massoretic Text based bibles are always right contradicts itself. All you have to do is identify which verse below is the word of God as penned by Solomon. One comes from the Masoretic Text, the other from the LXX. I'm not trying to get one over on you. I'm just trying to point out that we can't always assume the Masoretic text is right.

I never said the Massoretic texts were absolutely perfect either. It has some problems just as all texts do.

Don't you think that's why God gave us so much interconnectedness 'throughout' all Scripture as a whole, repeating relevant subject matter more than once?

That's why the great valley of Zech.14 per the Masoretic text is not a stand-alone idea,


Isa 64:1-3
1 Oh that Thou wouldest rend the heavens, that Thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at Thy presence,
2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make Thy name known to Thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at Thy presence!
3 When Thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, Thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at Thy presence.
(KJV)

Micah 1:3-4
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under Him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
(KJV)

Nahum 1:5-8
5 The mountains quake at Him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at His presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by Him.
7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and He knoweth them that trust in Him.
8 But with an overrunning flood He will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue His enemies.
(KJV)

Hab 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: His ways are everlasting.
(KJV)

Zech 4:7
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
(KJV)

Joel 3:11-15
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
(KJV)


The forming of that great valley at the Mount of Olives upon Christ's return is also part of the establishing of God's House in Jerusalem for Christ's future thousand years reign (per Ezekiel 40-47).
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
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I never said the Massoretic texts were absolutely perfect either. It has some problems just as all texts do.
Don't you think that's why God gave us so much interconnectedness 'throughout' all Scripture as a whole, repeating relevant subject matter more than once?
That's why the great valley of Zech.14 per the Masoretic text is not a stand-alone idea,

The verses you listed don't support the idea of a great valley at all. In fact, they describe the exact opposite: valleys filled in by landsliding. That is consistent with the recurrent biblical theme of every mountain being abased, and every valley being exalted.

If you realize that the Masoretic Text isn't perfect, why are you so resistant to the idea that its rendition of Zechariah 14:4 isn't correct? There is far more evidence that the LXX version is correct.
 

veteran

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The verses you listed don't support the idea of a great valley at all. In fact, they describe the exact opposite: valleys filled in by landsliding. That is consistent with the recurrent biblical theme of every mountain being abased, and every valley being exalted.

If you realize that the Masoretic Text isn't perfect, why are you so resistant to the idea that its rendition of Zechariah 14:4 isn't correct? There is far more evidence that the LXX version is correct.

Because like I told you, that great valley of Zech.14 to be formed by Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives is how He will defeat His enemies in Jerusalem at His coming, and also in preparation for the establishing of the holy city and Millennium House per Ezek.40 through 48. God's River in that time is going to flow out towards the east country...

Ezek 47:8-9
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
(KJV)