First the Rapture and then the Great Tribulations

According to Jesus in Mt 24:15-31, the Great Tribulation doesn't even start until the midpoint abomination spoken by Daniel (Dan 9:27) happens and then on the Day of the Lord, the Rapture comes.

This portion of the Olivet Discourse aligns exactly with Rev 13:14-15 to Rev 14:14-16.

First comes the abomination, then comes the two laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for us, the worst time ever (the seige of Jerusalem during the FIRST Jewish Revolt was not the worst seige ever) - and then Jesus will come for us - before the Wrath of God pays back tribulation for tribulation.

The Great Tribulation hasn't happened -- yet.

JLB said:

7 Angels wrote -

One of the significant things any interpreter of the book of Revelation will notice is the abrupt shift in focus which takes place between chapters three and four. Chapters two and three, which describe “the things which are” (Rev. Rev. 1:19+), are focused entirely on the Church. Then, abruptly, chapter four opens, John ascends to heaven “in the Spirit,” and the Church is no longer mentioned until the close of the book. This shift in focus and absence of all mention of the Church would in itself be somewhat remarkable. But when it is combined with what Scripture elsewhere teaches concerning the character and destiny of the Church, it provides additional evidence that the Church will not be present on the earth during the events of Revelation Rev. 4:1+ through Revelation Rev. 19:1+, including the period of the tribulation.




This is totally untrue nor is it biblical. Nobody should even mention the book of Revelation untill they have a clear understanding from the gospel's, then the writings of Paul and Peter.

The sayings of Jesus are the foundation.

If you can't simply understand "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


If someone has trouble understanding that, then please don't try to make sense of scripture veiled in symbolism.

Thanks, JLB

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are you so close minded that you cannot see that there are two different comings of the Lord. ok let us try looking at it from this view. just like veteran says if there is a first resurrection then there must be a second. the same goes for the first coming of the Lord. we know when the second coming happens and what do you think the first coming of Jesus was? if you believe it was when Jesus first came to earth then how do you explain the 2 different rapture events of 1 thes 4:17 and zech 14:4-5, matt 24:27-31.

or how do you explain how Jesus and the church will come back in (rev 19:14) even before the great trib is over. the day of the Lord is after the great trib not during it.

or how about 1 thes 5:1-5 where it says Jesus will be seen by those of God's kingdom but to all others it will happen as a thief in the night. and then we have rev 1:7 that shows how every eye will see him and not just the believers.

these are all contradictions which need to be explained.

veteran's explanations of old and new testament scriptures is messed up a bit i believe. for example, when he quotes ez 40-49 as Jesus' meaning of mansions being a priests abode is messed up. that was the directions of God on how to build the temple that was built and then prophesied by Jesus that would be destroyed. veteran you may know scripture but it seems sometimes that you have no revelation of scripture. you talk about looking at contexts and everything but you disregard it. now i would like you to explain your reasoning behind your thoughts. from most people that read your posts few seem to agree and yet you call everyone else's doctrine "a doctrine of man or a false doctrine". if you are the only one here who can correctly interpret scripture then you are deceived yourself because scripture states that the word is of no one man's interpretation(2 pet 1:20). if what you say is true then let me see a published paper on your beliefs. if they are true then i am sure others have had similar thoughts unless it is a private interpretation given only to you. i say this not to discredit you but to either allow me to see if i am in error or to show you that you are in error so whichever one of us or both of us can be brought to the light.

Go with God

Shalom, 7angels.

7angels said:

are you so close minded that you cannot see that there are two different comings of the Lord. ok let us try looking at it from this view. just like veteran says if there is a first resurrection then there must be a second. the same goes for the first coming of the Lord. we know when the second coming happens and what do you think the first coming of Jesus was? if you believe it was when Jesus first came to earth then how do you explain the 2 different rapture events of 1 thes 4:17 and zech 14:4-5, matt 24:27-31.

or how do you explain how Jesus and the church will come back in (rev 19:14) even before the great trib is over. the day of the Lord is after the great trib not during it.

or how about 1 thes 5:1-5 where it says Jesus will be seen by those of God's kingdom but to all others it will happen as a thief in the night. and then we have rev 1:7 that shows how every eye will see him and not just the believers.

these are all contradictions which need to be explained.

veteran's explanations of old and new testament scriptures is messed up a bit i believe. for example, when he quotes ez 40-49 as Jesus' meaning of mansions being a priests abode is messed up. that was the directions of God on how to build the temple that was built and then prophesied by Jesus that would be destroyed. veteran you may know scripture but it seems sometimes that you have no revelation of scripture. you talk about looking at contexts and everything but you disregard it. now i would like you to explain your reasoning behind your thoughts. from most people that read your posts few seem to agree and yet you call everyone else's doctrine "a doctrine of man or a false doctrine". if you are the only one here who can correctly interpret scripture then you are deceived yourself because scripture states that the word is of no one man's interpretation(2 pet 1:20). if what you say is true then let me see a published paper on your beliefs. if they are true then i am sure others have had similar thoughts unless it is a private interpretation given only to you. i say this not to discredit you but to either allow me to see if i am in error or to show you that you are in error so whichever one of us or both of us can be brought to the light.

Go with God

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I don't know how others will answer, but the first coming or the first advent of our Master Yeshua` haMashiach (our Lord Jesus the Christ) happened around 5 B.C. until around 30 A.D. when Yeshua` was crucified. The second coming or the second advent will happen when Yeshua` returns as promised (Acts 1:9-11), and the Scriptures say nothing about a THIRD advent! In fact, when I was taught pretribulational rapturism, it was explained to me that the Second Coming was in two stages, the Rapture and then the Second Coming proper seven years later. I no longer see them as two separate stages. Instead, they are in rapid-fire succession at the ONE EVENT when Yeshua` returns:

First, He comes with His messengers (Greek: aggeloi, transliterated "angels") to the vicinity of the earth. (Acts 1:11)
Then, He sends out His messengers to gather His elect from all over the earth. (Matt. 24:31)
He resurrects His elect if they are dead, giving them each a new body in the process. (1 Cor. 15:52b; 1 Thes. 4:16)
Then, those who are alive and remain will be given new bodies, transformed in the "twinkling of an eye." (1 Cor. 15:51-52a, 52c)
All, both those who had died and those who had been still alive, will be raptured into the sky. (1 Thes. 4:17a)
All will then be transported to the skies over the Middle East to meet the Master in the air. (1 Thes. 4:17b)
Then, they will descend as His armies in the sky to help Him in His battles to rescue and defeat Isra'el's enemies, beginning at Botsrah, Edom. (Rev. 19:11-14; Isa. 34:1-10; 63:1-7; Jer. 49:13-22; Amos 1:11-12)
His campaign will be to rescue first all the oppressed in the towns and villages of Y'hudah (Judah) until He finally arrives at Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). (Zech. 12:7-14:3)
Setting foot upon Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), He will split the mountain east and west making two mountains, one that moves northward and one that moves southward. This split will also separate the graves of the Islamic cemetary before the Eastern Gate and split the buried Golden Gate as well, providing an escape route for the captives of Yerushalayim. (Zech. 14:4-5)
While the captives are freed and escorted out of Yerushalayim and through the valley to the east, Yeshua` will enter the Gate and route the enemies through the northern Damascus Gate of the Old City.
Then, He and His army will chase the enemies across the mountains of Isra'el to the north until they come to the natural staging area of Yizre'el Valley (Jezreel Valley or the Valley of Jehoshaphat), lying to the east and south of Haifa, under the watchtower of Har-Megiddown, the Mountain of Megiddo or Tel-Megiddow or "Armageddon" (Greek transliteration). (Joel 3:1-17; Ezek. 36:1-39:4)
His enemies, at this point, will attempt to regroup and take a stand against Him and His army, but they will fail. (Rev. 16:12-16)
Many will be slaughtered and their corpses given to the birds and the wild beasts of the field, who will cart off their bones. (Ezek. 39:17-20; Rev. 19:17-18)
After the final defeat of the enemy at this juncture, the survivors will be tried at a war tribunal that Yeshua` sets up for them in that valley. (Joel 3:1-17; Matt. 25:31-46; Rev. 19:19-21)

It is THEN that the events of the Second Coming are complete and the Messiah's Kingdom in Isra'el begins! (Matt. 25:31, 34) Thus begins the Millennium (Rev. 20:1-7).

The characteristics of the Millennium are NOT "peace for all." They are "peace for God's people" whether Isra'el, the natural family of the Messiah who become believers at His return, or the sight-unseen believers in the Messiah, both Jew and Gentile who are resurrected/transformed at His return. However, for all others, it will be a time of conflict and supressed rebellion as they are FORCED to bow the knee to the Messiah! (Psalm 2:1-12; Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Isa. 45:21-25; Rom. 14:10-12)

Hope this helps.

7angels said:

are you so close minded that you cannot see that there are two different comings of the Lord. ok let us try looking at it from this view. just like veteran says if there is a first resurrection then there must be a second. the same goes for the first coming of the Lord. we know when the second coming happens and what do you think the first coming of Jesus was? if you believe it was when Jesus first came to earth then how do you explain the 2 different rapture events of 1 thes 4:17 and zech 14:4-5, matt 24:27-31.

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Now that's a new one, a claim that Christ's first coming to die on the cross was not actually a 'first' coming.

That shows how 'drunken' some are on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in wanting it to be true that they'll even get Christ's FIRST coming to die on the cross out of order.


There are ONLY 2 comings of Christ Jesus per Scripture, and they were first written of in Zech.9:9-10.

First Coming:

Zech 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
(KJV)

Second Coming:

Zech.9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
(KJV)

Notice there is no coming of Christ in-between those 2. The Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly inserts a false coming in-between those 2 comings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But what does God's Word reveal is... to occur in-between Christ's first and second comings? Just prior to His second coming (which is still future), He warned us of the coming of a false messiah, the Antichrist, coming to set himself up in place of God, and causing all the earth to bow in false worship to him, except Christ's elect who cannot be deceived (2 Thess.2; Rev.13:11-17; Matt.24:23-26).

So... since the Pre-trib Rapture theory pushes the idea of our Lord Jesus coming in-between those 2, but it's actually going to be a fake coming of a false messiah in-between those 2, what do you think the Pre-trib Rapture theory is designed to do??? It's designed to lead the deceived into wrongly bowing to that false messiah instead waiting on our Lord Jesus' coming to destroy that false one.

THAT is why those like myself who know this difference per God's Word must give warning to brethren who are on that Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men. But not only for those, but also for those trapped in men's doctrines that believe Christ's 2nd coming is already past, or those who are taught Christ's 2nd coming will not be a literal coming.

or how do you explain how Jesus and the church will come back in (rev 19:14) even before the great trib is over. the day of the Lord is after the great trib not during it.

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The "day of the Lord" is what ENDS... the tribulation. That's what the first 3 phrases of Zech.9:10 is about. That is also the day of Christ's coming, and the day of our gathering to Him and the saints HE BRINGS WITH HIM (the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4). The great army that is seen returning with our Lord Jesus are the 'resurrected' saints that had died in Christ, those He brings WITH Him when He returns. Paul covered that in 1 Thess.4. In 1 Cor.15 Paul even said there the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be 'changed' (1 Cor.15:52). It's easy!

or how about 1 thes 5:1-5 where it says Jesus will be seen by those of God's kingdom but to all others it will happen as a thief in the night. and then we have rev 1:7 that shows how every eye will see him and not just the believers.

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Christ coming "as a thief" is for those that His coming takes by surprise. How can they be surprised "as a thief" if they cannot realize His coming? You're simply not thinking with understanding, and trying to use your emotions instead.

Every eye will see His coming in the clouds as written in Rev.1:7, and that's HOW even the unbelievers and deceived will realize His coming, and it will take them by surprise, "as a thief in the night".

But what the Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches which originated from John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, is the lie that only those in Christ will 'see' His coming to gather them per their 'rapture' belief. That's where the 'secret' idea within the Pre-trib Rapture theory comes from. That doctrine of men is basically saying that Christ comes to rapture out His Church in secret prior to the tribulation. That false idea is still... taught in today's Pre-trib Rapture doctrine, because that's the point with unbelievers on earth seeing believers suddenly disappear and they don't know what happened to them. That's the main basis of the Left-Behind books and movies, a SECRET RAPTURE idea. Yet that idea is directly opposite of what God's Word says will happen. Hopefully, you'll wake up about all that before it's too late.

these are all contradictions which need to be explained.

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I guarantee you; if you quit listening to those Pre-trib Rapture preachers and get into study of God's Word for yourself, you will quickly discover the contraditions are with them, and their doctrine of men.

veteran's explanations of old and new testament scriptures is messed up a bit i believe. for example, when he quotes ez 40-49 as Jesus' meaning of mansions being a priests abode is messed up. that was the directions of God on how to build the temple that was built and then prophesied by Jesus that would be destroyed.

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Where did you get that silly idea? The Ezekiel temple has NEVER been built yet. That's why it's given layout and dimensions in Ezekiel are unlike any previous temple of history in Jerusalem! The temple which Jesus said would be laid even with the ground was the 2nd temple, the one built after Judah's return from their 70 years captivity in Babylon (circa 512 B.C.). It's the 2nd temple you're talking about, not Ezekiel's temple.

I'll bet you just ASSUMED that since the Book fo Ezekiel is OT, you thought it all must be history, and all of it happened prior to Christ's first coming to die on the cross? Nope, not all of it was history. The Ezek.40-48 chapters specifically, are future to us still! That's because of it showing the tree of life and God's River of the waters of life manifested on earth with Ezekiel's temple layout, descriptions of events that have NEVER... happened on earth yet.

veteran you may know scripture but it seems sometimes that you have no revelation of scripture. you talk about looking at contexts and everything but you disregard it.

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Now you're telling blatant falsehoods. If anything, I probably reveal too much of the 'pearls' in God's Word here on this forum. As for keeping to chapter context in God's Word, I definitely have already proven you to be guilty of intentionally trying to mislead with your previous multiple verse list.

now i would like you to explain your reasoning behind your thoughts. from most people that read your posts few seem to agree and yet you call everyone else's doctrine "a doctrine of man or a false doctrine". if you are the only one here who can correctly interpret scripture then you are deceived yourself because scripture states that the word is of no one man's interpretation(2 pet 1:20). if what you say is true then let me see a published paper on your beliefs. if they are true then i am sure others have had similar thoughts unless it is a private interpretation given only to you. i say this not to discredit you but to either allow me to see if i am in error or to show you that you are in error so whichever one of us or both of us can be brought to the light.

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What ever gave you the erroneous idea that I answer to you? I don't answer to you, just to let you know.

You continually post in support of the Pre-trib Rapture theory, but none of your posts prove anything, and even Scripture you do quote doesn't have much to do with what you even declare! That reveals to me you're not really 'serious' about keeping to God's Word as written, and for that you deserve to remain deceived.