When Jesus says...

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Does the scripture below apply to Christians today?


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aspen

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Shep - I think the Christian walk does involve a lot of freedom, however, it also involves sanctification, which means the practice of love and the mapping and rooting out our of sin. Not knowing if and when you are sinning is not helping your sanctification/redemption/salvation process. Even if you do believe that you have been saved once and for all, it doesn't mean that you are once and for all perfected - we still have a love road to travel with our crosses before we are able to behave like citizens of Heaven.
 

goodshepard55

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LOL..Rach and Aspen...good questions...I don't have to repent of sins I do not commit, I don't worry Aspen if I am saved or sanctified, or have salvation..I gave my life to Jesus totally to be used by Him as He sees fit...I have the Spirit of the Living God dwelling in me, so why should I worry about the problems of sin, redemption or salvation? When the Spirit of the Most High lives in you, and you follow His book, and you have your eyes opened by the Truth of God, you will see that you are righteous, holy, pure, sinless....Because they are a gift from God...When you stop worrying about all that...You walk in Him, you breathe in Him, you exhale Him out, you change, your life changes, I hold the Most High within me...how can I sin, how can I lose salvation, when I am in Him, how can I become more sanctified...I can't...for He is the great I AM, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the King of kings and the Lord of Lords and He lives in me...Wahoo...have to much fun with Him to worry about the small stuff...He leads me daily, nightly and all the time...I wait on Him for instructions before I do anything...and so the fun begins...I honestly wish you both could visit me here in Aussie land and see Him work...I just go along for the ride and the fun and the amazement....He is so much fun, He is so gentle, He is so loving..He is AMAZING...He heals, He does miracles, He is GOD...

Love you both and bless you and let the Spirit of the Living God flow in you and out of you, Let His Spirit fill you until you overflow, then let His Spirit leak out and touch all around you, may you feel His love flow through you and for you, may His eyes become your eyes and His heart, your heart...may your heart beat as one with His....

Shep
 
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goodshepard55

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Romans 6:

2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
 

Prentis

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LOL..Rach and Aspen...good questions...I don't have to repent of sins I do not commit, I don't worry Aspen if I am saved or sanctified, or have salvation..I gave my life to Jesus totally to be used by Him as He sees fit...I have the Spirit of the Living God dwelling in me, so why should I worry about the problems of sin, redemption or salvation? When the Spirit of the Most High lives in you, and you follow His book, and you have your eyes opened by the Truth of God, you will see that you are righteous, holy, pure, sinless....Because they are a gift from God...When you stop worrying about all that...You walk in Him, you breathe in Him, you exhale Him out, you change, your life changes, I hold the Most High within me...how can I sin, how can I lose salvation, when I am in Him, how can I become more sanctified...I can't...for He is the great I AM, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the King of kings and the Lord of Lords and He lives in me...Wahoo...have to much fun with Him to worry about the small stuff...He leads me daily, nightly and all the time...I wait on Him for instructions before I do anything...and so the fun begins...I honestly wish you both could visit me here in Aussie land and see Him work...I just go along for the ride and the fun and the amazement....He is so much fun, He is so gentle, He is so loving..He is AMAZING...He heals, He does miracles, He is GOD...

Love you both and bless you and let the Spirit of the Living God flow in you and out of you, Let His Spirit fill you until you overflow, then let His Spirit leak out and touch all around you, may you feel His love flow through you and for you, may His eyes become your eyes and His heart, your heart...may your heart beat as one with His....

Shep

Awesome Shep! :)

That is how life is in him! May we all enter in by faith and walk like this!

Romans 6:

2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

And amen again.... By the Spirit, this is possible!
 

Vashti

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Rach said:
Yes, but faith itself is a gift from God

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mar 16:16 ).
This is not writes that the saved will be those who receive faith as a gift from God.

Yes, but when other scriptures outright tell us that salvation is ONLY a gift from God, that anything we ourselves offer up to Him are filthy rags and dog puke, can you really hold to your interpetation of this verse?

Where "other scriptures outright tell us that salvation is ONLY a gift from God"?
COVENANT. I read that the one who endures to the end will be saved ( Mat 24:13 ). I also read who do not endures was rejected, as quoted.

Rejection of the Bible relates to the rejection from God and not from the community, as it is you are trying to prove ..

In summary you claim, that "those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit" - "it is clear that they are not true Christians", in other words, they “fall away” from something, in which they were never.

You claim that the one who was sanctified by the blood of the covenant ( Heb 10:29 ) - it is "someone who had been “set apart” or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers" and it is "people in view are not (and never were) genuine believers; that is, these are people who have never genuinely embraced the gospel"...

You claim that "shipwreck of their faith" ( 1Ti 1:19 ) applies to people who never really had faith.

Very comfortable philosophy, but blatantly unreliable

So when He tells me that salvation is a free gift from Him, that my works and righteousness are meaningless...

It's you saying, but not the Scriptures. Scripture encourages the works, and never says that righteousness are meaningless.

The one huge mistake everyone makes when they want to know why God choses some and not others, is to assume that God is or should be, under human rules. God is not human. He is not flawed, and He has no need to bow to our "it's not fair" whinning. He does everything for His glory, as is His right...he is perfect, holy, good, just. He is the only one who is deserving of glory. So if He chooses some and not others, we can assume it's done for His glory, and praise it

But there is no something like "He chooses some and not others", because:

Ez 18:23 esv "(23) Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?"
Ez 33:11 esv "(11) Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live;"
2Pe 3:9 esv "(9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
Act 17:30 esv "(30) The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,"


(sorry for my english ...)
 

Rach1370

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Got a question for you Rach. What does "repent" mean to you? Can you show the context of scripture where you are getting "repent" from? Thanks.

heyho Jiggy! To repent, or “change one’s mind,” in the OT called for a change in a person’s attitude toward God that impacted one’s actions and life choices; it involved the idea of “turning,” that is, from one way of thinking and living to a different way. Common external signs of repentance included prayers of remorse and confession and renouncing of sin.

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17 ESV)

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:5 ESV)

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 ESV)

Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. (Matthew 3:8 ESV)

Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. (Revelation 3:19 ESV)

There are many more passages that talk of repentance...these are just a few. We could, I suppose, take them to mean that repentance is just a one time deal when we receive grace. But that just doesn't fit with what the rest of scripture tells us about how we should live our lives. Consider:

So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
(Matthew 7:17-20 ESV)


“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Matthew 12:33-37 ESV)

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:22-23 ESV)

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. (Galatians 5:17-26 ESV)


Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. (Galatians 6:1 ESV)

If we are honest, we admit that there is still sin in our lives. Christians will not be perfect until Christ returns for us. But we know from scripture that we need to be on guard against sin, that we need to put it to death. Doesn't that naturally lead to repentance? When the Holy Spirit convicts us of it, how else do those with new hearts act, but to feel it, and repent of it, and move away from it??
 

Rach1370

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"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mar 16:16 ).
This is not writes that the saved will be those who receive faith as a gift from God.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:23 ESV)


Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Romans 5:1-2 ESV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV)

So we see from scripture that we receive a 'free gift from God', a gift of faith from God, and that we have been saved and justified by God, through faith in Jesus...which is a free gift.

Where "other scriptures outright tell us that salvation is ONLY a gift from God"?
COVENANT. I read that the one who endures to the end will be saved ( Mat 24:13 ). I also read who do not endures was rejected, as quoted.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:23 ESV)


the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (Romans 3:22-25 ESV)

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16 ESV)

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (Galatians 2:21 ESV)

Rejection of the Bible relates to the rejection from God and not from the community, as it is you are trying to prove ..

In summary you claim, that "those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit" - "it is clear that they are not true Christians", in other words, they “fall away” from something, in which they were never.

You claim that the one who was sanctified by the blood of the covenant ( Heb 10:29 ) - it is "someone who had been “set apart” or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers" and it is "people in view are not (and never were) genuine believers; that is, these are people who have never genuinely embraced the gospel"...

You claim that "shipwreck of their faith" ( 1Ti 1:19 ) applies to people who never really had faith.

Very comfortable philosophy, but blatantly unreliable

Perhaps it is 'blatantly unreliable' to your doctrines. However, as I start my beliefs from the bible itself, it is not so for me. The bible tells us that we have 'assurance' in Christ...as the verses I have already supplied above show. If the Bible teaches that those who are truly regenerated...those who have really given their lives over to Christ and are saved by that faith...if they cannot lose their salvation, how can I begin my assumptions elsewhere? When the Bible tells me that it is God's strength and Jesus' perfection in life and death that holds me to Him, and that He won't let me go...how can I come at scripture believing otherwise? It is these convictions that lead me and many others to exegesis above. It's got nothing to do with 'comfort' and everything to do with bible centered theology.

It's you saying, but not the Scriptures. Scripture encourages the works, and never says that righteousness are meaningless.

Ah, no, it's not just me saying it....Bible says it repeatedly....

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV)

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (Romans 3:28 ESV)

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— (Galatians 3:2-5 ESV)

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” (Romans 1:17 ESV)

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
(Romans 3:27-28 ESV)


But there is no something like "He chooses some and not others", because:

Ez 18:23 esv "(23) Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?"
Ez 33:11 esv "(11) Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live;"
2Pe 3:9 esv "(9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
Act 17:30 esv "(30) The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,"

I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
(Romans 9:1-10:4 ESV)


(sorry for my english ...)

Your English is much better than a lot of people who have it for a first language!!!
 

jiggyfly

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heyho Jiggy! To repent, or “change one’s mind,” in the OT called for a change in a person’s attitude toward God that impacted one’s actions and life choices; it involved the idea of “turning,” that is, from one way of thinking and living to a different way. Common external signs of repentance included prayers of remorse and confession and renouncing of sin.

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17 ESV)

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:5 ESV)

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 ESV)

Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. (Matthew 3:8 ESV)

Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. (Revelation 3:19 ESV)

There are many more passages that talk of repentance...these are just a few. We could, I suppose, take them to mean that repentance is just a one time deal when we receive grace. But that just doesn't fit with what the rest of scripture tells us about how we should live our lives. Consider:

So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
(Matthew 7:17-20 ESV)


“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Matthew 12:33-37 ESV)

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:22-23 ESV)

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. (Galatians 5:17-26 ESV)


Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. (Galatians 6:1 ESV)

If we are honest, we admit that there is still sin in our lives. Christians will not be perfect until Christ returns for us. But we know from scripture that we need to be on guard against sin, that we need to put it to death. Doesn't that naturally lead to repentance? When the Holy Spirit convicts us of it, how else do those with new hearts act, but to feel it, and repent of it, and move away from it??

Thanks for your response Rach.
The Greek word metanoeo means to change your way of thinking or to think differently.
 

Vashti

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Rach said:
So we see from scripture that we receive a 'free gift from God', a gift of faith from God...

Sorry, but "we do not see" the writes that faith is a "free gift from God", because in the given citations do not write. Rather, "we see" as the Word of God encourages "repent and believe in the gospel" ( Mar 1:15 )

If the Bible teaches that those who are truly regenerated...those who have really given their lives over to Christ and are saved by that faith...if they cannot lose their salvation...

Sorry, but the Bible never says it is, never, on the contrary, the Bible warns against the loss of salvation, and gives examples of those who lost.

Racz said:
Racz said:
So when He tells me that salvation is a free gift from Him, that my works and righteousness are meaningless...

Vashti said:
It's you saying, but not the Scriptures. Scripture encourages the works, and never says that righteousness are meaningless.

Ah, no, it's not just me saying it....Bible says it repeatedly....

Sorry, but the Bible never speaks that works and righteousness are meaningless...

Your English is much better than a lot of people who have it for a first language!!!

Thank you very much but this is not true... Writing gives me much trouble, I use the interpreter, but he does a lot of mistakes, it is hard for me to express my thoughts and absorbs a lot of time. I even regret from wove into this discussion, because I know from experience that such discussions never end.

Sorry, but you give lots quotes, then you're doing conclusions which there is no in these quotations.

However quotes, which you deny you explain to your unrealistic way, because they disturb your theories, which I personally think to be unbiblical and harmful.

I do not deny that salvation is by grace.
I am not saying that we boast of deeds.
I am not saying that justified by works of the law and receive the Spirit by works of the law etc.

I am saying that there is no something like "faith as a gift from God".
I am saying that the Bible never teaches that salvation cannot be lost.
I am saying that the Bible never speaks that my works and righteousness are meaningless...
I am saying that there is no something like "He chooses some and not others".

You quoted, I also - I think it will be better to end up on this, for further discussion makes no sense, because I think you distort the word of God to suit it your own beliefs .. I can not discuss with your fantasies, I'm sorry ...

Thank you for the conversation, from my side that's all.

P.S. arguments like "Who with me does not agree this the Holy Spirit does not agree" testify rather to the detriment of.
 

aspen

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For all those who not longer sin, I am wondering if you still hurt other people, sometimes? How about disappointing them by failing to meet their needs? Do you always love others, perfectly? Are you always unselfish? If you really know yourself, I believe you have to answer these questions honestly and realize that you are not yet perfected and therefore still a sinner - no matter how much of a joyride you are having with Jesus.
 

Jake

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For all those who not longer sin, I am wondering if you still hurt other people, sometimes? How about disappointing them by failing to meet their needs? Do you always love others, perfectly? Are you always unselfish? If you really know yourself, I believe you have to answer these questions honestly and realize that you are not yet perfected and therefore still a sinner - no matter how much of a joyride you are having with Jesus.
Hey Aspen,
The way I see it, especially in light of some of the posts on this forum, is people still see themselves as sinners when that notion is so far away from what the Bible says we are and who we are in Christ. We are known as Saints, those who are abiding in Christ, and when we learn He is the overcomer, we also, with His power and grace, can also overcome sin, not to cover up, but to get rid of it.

The problem is people do not believe this, they see themselves as always sinners and not the overcoming Saints we are called to be. God created the world from simply saying, "Let there be....", how much more can He do for us and our sins? Why is it people believe He can "keep us in salvation" but not believe He can keep us from sin? Which is more difficult for Him?
 

aspen

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Hey Aspen,
The way I see it, especially in light of some of the posts on this forum, is people still see themselves as sinners when that notion is so far away from what the Bible says we are and who we are in Christ. We are known as Saints, those who are abiding in Christ, and when we learn He is the overcomer, we also, with His power and grace, can also overcome sin, not to cover up, but to get rid of it.

The problem is people do not believe this, they see themselves as always sinners and not the overcoming Saints we are called to be. God created the world from simply saying, "Let there be....", how much more can He do for us and our sins? Why is it people believe He can "keep us in salvation" but not believe He can keep us from sin? Which is more difficult for Him?

I do not think it is a matter of belief. In fact, I think hinging God's participation in our lives on our ability to generate belief is a dangerous practice. It can lead to the 'This Present Darkness Syndrome" - 'if we just pray hard enough, with as many people as possible, God will send the right amount of angels to fight the demons!!!'

Instead, I think it is a matter of moving from a fallen state (in regards to sanctification, not justification) to a perfected state of being. God has forgiven our sins (justification), but we do not have the skill set to act justified - we have to work with the Spirit to learn how to love perfectly again and it takes a lifetime - when we Fell we Fell far. During the practice period, we are going to still act selfishly from time to time - Paul knows this when he writes about being confounded that he knows the truth, but still acts in error. When we fail we are called to repent (turn away from self and back to Christ) and continue to serve God and others instead of self.
 

Jake

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I do not think it is a matter of belief. In fact, I think hinging God's participation in our lives on our ability to generate belief is a dangerous practice. It can lead to the 'This Present Darkness Syndrome" - 'if we just pray hard enough, with as many people as possible, God will send the right amount of angels to fight the demons!!!'

Instead, I think it is a matter of moving from a fallen state (in regards to sanctification, not justification) to a perfected state of being. God has forgiven our sins (justification), but we do not have the skill set to act justified - we have to work with the Spirit to learn how to love perfectly again and it takes a lifetime - when we Fell we Fell far. During the practice period, we are going to still act selfishly from time to time - Paul knows this when he writes about being confounded that he knows the truth, but still acts in error. When we fail we are called to repent (turn away from self and back to Christ) and continue to serve God and others instead of self.
No, it's not belief, it's faith. There isn't anything with "praying hard" either. :)

Bible verses to support sin are taken way out of context, people stay in Romans 7 because the flesh loves it - see, Paul struggled, too, but the thing is, Paul moved on, and we can move on too to Romans 8. Those staying in Romans 7, justifying their sins, we're told they have a different father. Jesus told us to knock it off in countless ways, even John tells not to sin but IF we do, we ask and are forgiven, but his intention was that we would stop it, that was his entire reason for the letter - to stop sinning. The references of not sinning in the NT is staggering. We're no longer the pathetic creatures we were before Christ, we are empowered to overcome sin.
 

aspen

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Where does it say that Paul moved on? You are right - in God's eyes our sin are forgotten by HIm, but that doesn't mean they are forgotten by us.....our default is still to be selfish and therefore sinners. Over time, the move the Holy Spirit leads us to love other rather than choosing to be selfish, we eventually (I believe in Heaven) we are redeemed. It is not easy to break old, selfish patterns of behavior and it doesn't happen overnight.

John is reminding us that we no longer have to sin - we have the freedom in Christ to behave unselfishly.
 

Jake

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Where does it say that Paul moved on? You are right - in God's eyes our sin are forgotten by HIm, but that doesn't mean they are forgotten by us.....our default is still to be selfish and therefore sinners. Over time, the move the Holy Spirit leads us to love other rather than choosing to be selfish, we eventually (I believe in Heaven) we are redeemed. It is not easy to break old, selfish patterns of behavior and it doesn't happen overnight.

John is reminding us that we no longer have to sin - we have the freedom in Christ to behave unselfishly.
Read Romans 8, those living by the flesh remain in sin leading to death, the mind set on the Spirit leads to life. Jesus took upon himself sin in the flesh so that the law might be fulfilled perfectly in us, there is no way around it - if you remain in your sin you will not have His life. Those abiding in Christ, now have a new nature - HIS very nature, the Bible tells us we are living His life now - read Colossians 3. We are to put to death - sin. Paul said it was no longer him (Paul) living, but it was Christ living in Him, Paul (old man) had been crucified, now Christ (Pauls' new nature) was living in Him. Our lives are hidden in Christ, we are living His life.

John is telling us not to sin, why carry around Jesus with us while we sin?
 

Rach1370

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However quotes, which you deny you explain to your unrealistic way, because they disturb your theories, which I personally think to be unbiblical and harmful.

I do not deny that salvation is by grace.
I am not saying that we boast of deeds.
I am not saying that justified by works of the law and receive the Spirit by works of the law etc.

I am saying that there is no something like "faith as a gift from God".
I am saying that the Bible never teaches that salvation cannot be lost.
I am saying that the Bible never speaks that my works and righteousness are meaningless...
I am saying that there is no something like "He chooses some and not others".

You quoted, I also - I think it will be better to end up on this, for further discussion makes no sense, because I think you distort the word of God to suit it your own beliefs .. I can not discuss with your fantasies, I'm sorry ...

Vashti, I'm sorry that you feel I'm living in a harmful fantasy world. But every single one of my points, I backed up with multiple verses, that said EXACTLY what I said it did. It's hard to be clearer than that. So, yes, I'm sorry that you are so immersed in your own doctrine that you are missing so many important points in scripture. I will pray that God opens your eyes, to what the Bible truly says, if nothing else..
 

prism

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It's a funny thing. The word 'disciple' is never mentioned beyond Acts 21. It is not foound in Paul's, Peter, James or John's epistles. I wonder why? Hmmm.
 

us2are1

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It's a funny thing. The word 'disciple' is never mentioned beyond Acts 21. It is not foound in Paul's, Peter, James or John's epistles. I wonder why? Hmmm.

It is however found in The book of John and the Book of Matthew. Two eyewitness books. Here it is explained in scripture.

Luke 6
13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
 

goodshepard55

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In the New Testament 233 of the 261 instances of the word "disciple" occur in the Gospels, the other 28 being in Acts. Usually the word refers to disciples of Jesus, but there are also references to disciples of the Pharisees (Matt. 22:16; Mark 2:18), disciples of John the Baptist (Mark 2:18; Luke 11:1; John 1:35), and even disciples of Moses (John 9:28).
The Gospels often refer to Jesus as "Rabbi" (Matt. 26:25,49; Mark 9:5; 10:51; 11:21; John 1:38,49; 3:2,26; 6:25; 20:16 NIV). One can assume that Jesus used traditional rabbinic teaching techniques (question and answer, discussion, memorization) to instruct His disciples. In many respects Jesus differed from the rabbis. He called His disciples to "Follow me" (Luke 5:27). Disciples of the rabbis could select their teachers. Jesus oftentimes demanded extreme levels of personal renunciation (loss of family, property, etc.; Matt. 4:18-22; 10:24-42; Luke 5:27-28; 14:25-27; 18:28-30). He asked for lifelong allegiance (Luke 9:57-62) as the essential means of doing the will of God (Matt. 12:49-50; John 7:16-18). He taught more as a bearer of divine revelation than a link in the chain of Jewish tradition (Matt. 5:21-48; 7:28-29; Mark 4:10-11. In so doing Jesus announced the end of the age and the long-awaited reign of God (Matt. 4:17; Luke 4:14-21,42-44).

The term "disciple" comes to us in English from a Latin root. Its basic meaning is "learner" or "pupil." The term is virtually absent from the Old Testament, though there are two related references (1 Chron. 25:8; Isa. 8:16).
In the Greek world the word "disciple" normally referred to an adherent of a particular teacher or religious/philosophical school. It was the task of the disciple to learn, study, and pass along the sayings and teachings of the master. In rabbinic Judaism the term "disciple" referred to one who was committed to the interpretations of Scripture and religious tradition given him by the master or rabbi. Through a process of learning which would include a set meeting time and such pedagogical methods as question and answer, instruction, repetition, and memorization, the disciple would become increasingly devoted to the master and the master's teachings. In time, the disciple would, likewise, pass on the traditions to others.
 

aspen

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Read Romans 8, those living by the flesh remain in sin leading to death, the mind set on the Spirit leads to life. Jesus took upon himself sin in the flesh so that the law might be fulfilled perfectly in us, there is no way around it - if you remain in your sin you will not have His life. Those abiding in Christ, now have a new nature - HIS very nature, the Bible tells us we are living His life now - read Colossians 3. We are to put to death - sin. Paul said it was no longer him (Paul) living, but it was Christ living in Him, Paul (old man) had been crucified, now Christ (Pauls' new nature) was living in Him. Our lives are hidden in Christ, we are living His life.

John is telling us not to sin, why carry around Jesus with us while we sin?

Those living in the flesh are those who live to satisfy the flesh - Paul is speaking against people who glorify themselves through religion or lust or any other manner of self gratification. He is not speaking about people who are justified and submitting themselves to the Spirit daily, but fall into old patterns of selfishness, sometimes - there is a BIG difference. He is right - those who live for their own glorification through selfish gratification are lost.

Also, you need to define the Old Man - it is the ego! We are called to throw off the Old Man many times everyday - it is not a one time exercise! Our ego is constantly getting in the way of our selfless love through service. The first thing that speaks to us in response to the idea of exercising a selfless act is the Old Man - 'what am I going to get out of it?' - it is the human condition, even after justification. The only difference post-justification is that we are equipped to actually overthrown our egos instead of being slaves to it.