Israel--Law / Church--Grace

Netchaplain · Dec 29, 2011

ISRAEL'S NEW COVENANT

Miles J. Stanford

We must stop here and stanch the flow of Covenant theology that is flooding onto Dispensational ground--beginning with the primary effusion, Israel's New Covenant.

All traditional Dispensationalists believe and teach that Israel alone will be under the New Covenant of Jeremiah and Ezekiel in the future Messianic Kingdom. Yet they all, almost without exception, forsake this exclusiveness of the rightly-divided Word by maintaining that the Church shares in the "spiritual" blessings of Israel's New Covenant! Down goes the scriptural separation between Israel and its Law, and the Church and her Grace.

Those who pander to Israel's New Covenant, and seek to participate in - its "spiritual" blessings, are simply playing into the hands of Amillennial Covenant Theology, its stepchild, Theonomy, as well as Judaistic Messianic Christianity. They are evidently in need of Israel's New Covenant to help them legalize their legality.

Mr. F. W. Grant long ago warned against such a teaching: "To take from Israel what is hers is only to diminish her and not enrich ourselves; nay, what has been called in this way the spiritualizing of the promises has led most surely and emphatically to the carnalizing, and the legalizing, of the Church."

There is neither word nor inference in the Covenant concerning the Church, nor is it to be established during the Church's dispensation. Paul, in his time, stated that Israel's New Covenant was yet future: "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Rom. 11:26,27).

THE ETERNAL COVENANT -- The Church, on the contrary, presently has the benefits of the Eternal Covenant of Hebrews 13:20,21:

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that Great Shepherd of the sheep, through the Blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in His sight, through - Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."

NT NEW COVENANT -- There are a number of NT references which have to do with Israel's New Covenant, and others which have to do with the Church--some of which we will briefly touch upon.

"For this is My blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins." "And He said unto them, This is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you" (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Lu. 22:20).

In these Synoptic references the Lord Jesus is introducing the New Covenant of His coming Church. He is not explaining it, but is instituting it eschatalogically, on the basis of the soon-coming Cross.

He introduced the subject of the Church in Matthew 16:18: "I will build My Church," but He did not explain it. That He would do through Paul to the members of His Body. The explanation of the Church's Eternal Covenant is the responsibility of Paul, the primary source of Church truth.

"For I received of the [ascended] Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which He was betrayed.. . took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in My blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till He come" (1 Cor. 11:23,25,26).

Here Paul establishes the Church's New Covenant, identical to that previously introduced in the Synoptics by the Lord Jesus.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter, but of the spirit" (2 Cor. 3:6).

Paul's ministry to the heavenly Church is not made up of, nor does it contain, aspects of Israel's New Covenant. The Church's New Covenant consists of the life of the Son, not the law of the Kingdom.

"And for this cause He is the Mediator of the new testament [Greek: recent in its beginning as well as new in quality], that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they who are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." "And to Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant, and the Blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel" (Heb. 9:15; 12:24).

His Blood having been poured out in fulfillment of the eternal pact between the God of peace and Himself, the Lord Jesus thereby becomes the Mediator of the New Covenant for His Body, the Church--of which the Lord's Supper is the blessed reminder.

The blood of Abel spoke of judgment--"The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto Me from the ground. And now art thou [Cain] cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand" (Gen. 4:10,11). But the Blood of sprinkling--the application by faith in the shed Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ--testified of the judgment of the Cross, and of everlasting peace with the God of peace Himself!

"And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Rom. 11:26,27).

Paul here is speaking of some of the gracious I wills of Israel's New Covenant. "For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more." "I will also; save you from all your uncleannesses...in the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities" (Jer. 31:34; Ezek. 36:29,33).

The primary purpose of the Book of Hebrews was to keep the Jews, both saved and unsaved, from turning back to Judaism and the law, the old decaying Mosaic Covenant. They were exhorted to focus, not on the Covenant, but the Mediator of a better covenant.

Those Jews who were saved had come to Jesus, the Mediator of Israel's New Covenant, not to the Covenant itself, which was yet future. They were in living union with Him who is the Mediator of the Church's New Covenant, and that is a higher thing than if merely come to Israel's earthly kingdom Covenant. The Mediator will actualize this New Covenant with Israel on earth in the Millennial Kingdom.

"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises ['I will'].

"For if that first covenant, had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come [Millennial], saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah" (Heb. 8:6-8).

In these verses (Hebrews 8:10-13) the writer gives more details concerning Israel's New Covenant, and then in verse 13 he states: "In that He saith, a new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away."

They were not to turn back to Moses, but to the greater than Moses, greater than all: "that Great Shepherd of the sheep, through the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant" (Heb. 13:20).

Covenant theology at the utmost, is forgiveness of sins and divine favor enjoyed; and all that concerns their new position in the Lord Jesus Christ is ignored, or alas! guarded against as dangerous.

Men are placed under Israel's New Covenant which does not go beyond remission of sins and the law written on the heart. But being new creations in Christ Jesus, and knowing it by the Holy Spirit, and what 'that involves now--that is not a part of their creed. --J.N. Darby

We are come "to Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant" (Heb. 12:24). We are not come to the New Covenant, but to Jesus the Mediator of it. We are associated with Him who is the Mediator; that is a far higher thing than if merely come to the Covenant. He will make this New Covenant with Israel on earth. --H.H. Snell

[/indent]

veteran · Dec 30, 2011

That looks like men's doctrines of Hyper-Dispensationalism... or worse, doctrines of Orthodox Judaism...

Netchaplain said:
ISRAEL'S NEW COVENANT

Miles J. Stanford

We must stop here and stanch the flow of Covenant theology that is flooding onto Dispensational ground--beginning with the primary effusion, Israel's New Covenant.

All traditional Dispensationalists believe and teach that Israel alone will be under the New Covenant of Jeremiah and Ezekiel in the future Messianic Kingdom. Yet they all, almost without exception, forsake this exclusiveness of the rightly-divided Word by maintaining that the Church shares in the "spiritual" blessings of Israel's New Covenant! Down goes the scriptural separation between Israel and its Law, and the Church and her Grace.

Christ Jesus ended the Old Covenant, and brought The New Covenant in His Blood shed upon the cross. And the foundation of His Church rests upon that, as also do the Apostles and prophets. That just so happens to be one of the major... subjects of the Book of Hebrews along with Paul's Epistles! Might want to read it Netchaplain, because it's for us Christians today, since it's about Christ Jesus as The Saviour.

Those who pander to Israel's New Covenant, and seek to participate in - its "spiritual" blessings, are simply playing into the hands of Amillennial Covenant Theology, its stepchild, Theonomy, as well as Judaistic Messianic Christianity. They are evidently in need of Israel's New Covenant to help them legalize their legality.

Stanford was simply a FOLLOWER of later Dispensationalists ideas built from earlier ideas of Plymouth Brethren and John Darby. So let's be honest about where the guy was coming from. You're pushing this stuff aligns with what a few others here have been pushing, like Richard Burger and dan p, and the name of that doctrine from men is Hyper-Dispensationalism, a BRAND of Dispensationalism which MAINSTREAM Dispensationalists do NOT follow.

Mr. F. W. Grant long ago warned against such a teaching: "To take from Israel what is hers is only to diminish her and not enrich ourselves; nay, what has been called in this way the spiritualizing of the promises has led most surely and emphatically to the carnalizing, and the legalizing, of the Church."

Would a follower of Judaism agree with Stanford's accusation against Christ's Church? YEP!!! Orthodox Judaism doesn't accept Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. So naturally, they hate ANY ideas of God moving His Promises away from them and instead to Christ's Church. Too bad though, because that's exactly... what happened, even as Christ Jesus Himself said in Matt.21 about the taking away of His vineyard from the Jews who refused Him, and it would be given to another 'nation' that would produce its fruit. I suppose Miles Stanford forgot to read that Matthew 21 Scripture too!

There is neither word nor inference in the Covenant concerning the Church, nor is it to be established during the Church's dispensation. Paul, in his time, stated that Israel's New Covenant was yet future: "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Rom. 11:26,27).

Those who believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ and baptized in Him for the remission of sins IS The New Covenant of His Blood shed upon the cross. That's when forgiveness and remission of sins through Christ Jesus began. So when does The New Covenant have affect? When one believes on the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Have the unbelieving Jews believed? Obviously not, and won't as a people until Christ's future Milennium reign. That's what Paul was talking about there in pulling from Isaiah, for Paul also said the unbelievers of Israel wouldn't be turned until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. That fulness isn't over until Christ's second coming, which is yet future to us still.

THE ETERNAL COVENANT

-- The Church, on the contrary, presently has the benefits of the Eternal Covenant of Hebrews 13:20,21:

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that Great Shepherd of the sheep, through the Blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in His sight, through - Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."

NT NEW COVENANT -- There are a number of NT references which have to do with Israel's New Covenant, and others which have to do with the Church--some of which we will briefly touch upon.

"For this is My blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins." "And He said unto them, This is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you" (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Lu. 22:20).

Stanford should have read Paul's Epistles more closely...

Rom 6:1-11
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)

What's left remaining according to Paul? Our being glorified in the resurrection at Christ's return and establishing of His Kingdom on earth, i.e., the world to come. To reckon ourselves as dead unto sin, but alive unto God through His Son, THAT IS proof of The New Covenant by His Blood being already... in effect today!

What's the main difference between these following two verses about the "everlasting covenant"?

Ezek 37:26
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
(KJV)

Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, That brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, That great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(KJV)

BOTH are about the same New Covenant established through Christ's Blood shed upon the cross! So what other differences do those two verses have? Simple, one is about the New Covenant in Paul's days, and the Ezekiel reference is for after Christ's future return with the Milennium Sancturary that will be setup on the earth per Ezekiel 40-47. This is really... too easy folks!

That's why the false doctrine of Hyper-Dispensationalism really smells of false Jew doctrine against Christ's Church of this world! I mean, what more need Christ Jesus do to establish God's Promise of Salvation for those who believe on His death and Resurrection? The only thing left is Christ's actual return and our gathering to Him, the resurrection, and establishing His literal reign on the earth over all. Who but Orthodox Judaism wouldn't understand that today?

The rest of what Miles Stanford wrote just isn't worth commenting on.

Episkopos · Dec 30, 2011

There are not two new covenants...one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

There are not two brides of Christ...one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

The whole logic behind this seeks to separate what God has joined together in ONE Lord. In Christ there is no difference to be made by fleshly considerations. The Spirit has come to ALL flesh. Would that man stop trying to reduce the work of the cross of Christ.

veteran said:
That looks like men's doctrines of Hyper-Dispensationalism... or worse, doctrines of Orthodox Judaism...

[/left]

Christ Jesus ended the Old Covenant, and brought The New Covenant in His Blood shed upon the cross. And the foundation of His Church rests upon that, as also do the Apostles and prophets. That just so happens to be one of the major... subjects of the Book of Hebrews along with Paul's Epistles! Might want to read it Netchaplain, because it's for us Christians today, since it's about Christ Jesus as The Saviour.

Stanford was simply a FOLLOWER of later Dispensationalists ideas built from earlier ideas of Plymouth Brethren and John Darby. So let's be honest about where the guy was coming from. You're pushing this stuff aligns with what a few others here have been pushing, like Richard Burger and dan p, and the name of that doctrine from men is Hyper-Dispensationalism, a BRAND of Dispensationalism which MAINSTREAM Dispensationalists do NOT follow.

Would a follower of Judaism agree with Stanford's accusation against Christ's Church? YEP!!! Orthodox Judaism doesn't accept Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. So naturally, they hate ANY ideas of God moving His Promises away from them and instead to Christ's Church. Too bad though, because that's exactly... what happened, even as Christ Jesus Himself said in Matt.21 about the taking away of His vineyard from the Jews who refused Him, and it would be given to another 'nation' that would produce its fruit. I suppose Miles Stanford forgot to read that Matthew 21 Scripture too!

Those who believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ and baptized in Him for the remission of sins IS The New Covenant of His Blood shed upon the cross. That's when forgiveness and remission of sins through Christ Jesus began. So when does The New Covenant have affect? When one believes on the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Have the unbelieving Jews believed? Obviously not, and won't as a people until Christ's future Milennium reign. That's what Paul was talking about there in pulling from Isaiah, for Paul also said the unbelievers of Israel wouldn't be turned until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. That fulness isn't over until Christ's second coming, which is yet future to us still.

Stanford should have read Paul's Epistles more closely...

Rom 6:1-11
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)

What's left remaining according to Paul? Our being glorified in the resurrection at Christ's return and establishing of His Kingdom on earth, i.e., the world to come. To reckon ourselves as dead unto sin, but alive unto God through His Son, THAT IS proof of The New Covenant by His Blood being already... in effect today!

What's the main difference between these following two verses about the "everlasting covenant"?

Ezek 37:26
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
(KJV)

Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, That brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, That great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(KJV)

BOTH are about the same New Covenant established through Christ's Blood shed upon the cross! So what other differences do those two verses have? Simple, one is about the New Covenant in Paul's days, and the Ezekiel reference is for after Christ's future return with the Milennium Sancturary that will be setup on the earth per Ezekiel 40-47. This is really... too easy folks!

That's why the false doctrine of Hyper-Dispensationalism really smells of false Jew doctrine against Christ's Church of this world! I mean, what more need Christ Jesus do to establish God's Promise of Salvation for those who believe on His death and Resurrection? The only thing left is Christ's actual return and our gathering to Him, the resurrection, and establishing His literal reign on the earth over all. Who but Orthodox Judaism wouldn't understand that today?

The rest of what Miles Stanford wrote just isn't worth commenting on.

It is very sad that many converted Jews have been subverted away from the truth with the fables posted in the OP. What is even more astounding is that some Non-Jewish believers have fallen for such a teaching that reduces their calling to being a second class Gentile in the kingdom.

You'd think that Jesus was dying to maintain the OT distinctives rather than setting the captives free.

Netchaplain · Dec 30, 2011

Veteran, I'm just one who doesn't believe that Christian Gentiles are spiritual Jews. Many misinterpret Romans 2, esp. verse 26. " Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision"? The phrase "counted for circumcision" doesn't mean "becomes as", but "is similar to" and this is where the mistake of spiritualizing the Gentiles to be Jews is made.

The Jew isn't suppose to be under the Law but as a nation, they still put themselves there, even though "He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second" (Hbr 10:9). They will remain so, until the Lord shows them Himself (Jews requires signs or proof, like Thomas), during the Millenium.

Episkopos · Dec 30, 2011

Netchaplain said:
Veteran, I'm just one who doesn't believe that Christian Gentiles are spiritual Jews. Many misinterpret Romans 2, esp. verse 26. " Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision"? The phrase "counted for circumcision" doesn't mean "becomes as", but "is similar to" and this is where the mistake of spiritualizing the Gentiles to be Jews is made.

The Jew isn't suppose to be under the Law but as a nation, they still put themselves there, even though "He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second" (Hbr 10:9). They will remain so, until the Lord shows them Himself (Jews requires signs or proof, like Thomas), during the Millenium.

Hyper-dispensationalism goes exactly contrary to the word. It creates two classes of believers based on a physical circumcision. The Judaizers of Acts were more honest than the dispensationalists. They believed in oneness but that all should be circumcised making that unity physical AS WELL AS spiritual.

But you are espousing a permanent NON-unity based on a carnal situation that SUPERCEDES the new creation in Christ and makes that new creation of no effect over the flesh.

We are seeing this a lot...Christ is being made out to be powerless against the flesh. The OP is just one more example of fruit from a rotten tree!

veteran · Dec 30, 2011

Netchaplain said:
Veteran, I'm just one who doesn't believe that Christian Gentiles are spiritual Jews. Many misinterpret Romans 2, esp. verse 26. " Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision"? The phrase "counted for circumcision" doesn't mean "becomes as", but "is similar to" and this is where the mistake of spiritualizing the Gentiles to be Jews is made.

Maybe you ought to try heeding what Paul said in Romans 9 then, with the idea of spiritual Israel involving ANY person of ANY nation as a member of Christ's Church. I'm aware of how Hyper-Dispensationalists also hate Paul's label of "the commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2 also, with Paul saying that to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus.

The doctrine you're espousing is like Episkopos says, it detracts from the work Christ Jesus did upon His cross. ANY doctrine that does that is not of God.

The main reason why God chose Israel as a nation over all other nations, was for SERVICE to ALL other nations in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is STILL the main commission of true Israel today! And it was for that reason that God separated the ten tribes of the house of Israel (His vineyard per Isaiah 5), apart from the unbelieving Jews (husbandmen of Matt.21). It was so true Israel as another nation joined with Gentiles would bring forth fruits of His vineyard in Christ Jesus. And that has been accomplished.

The Jew isn't suppose to be under the Law but as a nation, they still put themselves there, even though "He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second" (Hbr 10:9). They will remain so, until the Lord shows them Himself (Jews requires signs or proof, like Thomas), during the Millenium.

Jacob in Genesis 49 told Judah that a lawgiver would not depart from him until Shiloh (Christ) comes to gather the people (i.e., second coming). So there's Judah's purpose in God's laws today. They're still to be lawgivers, but not laws involving the Old Covenant system, because if you'll notice, they have not been allowed to practice the Old Covenant requirements since God brought destruction upon Jerusalem by the Romans. And for over 2,000 years they have wanted to reclaim Jerusalem, rebuild the temple, and start up sacrifices and Old Covenant ritual again per the Old Testament. If God had not brought The New Covenant through the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ The Saviour, that Old Covenant worship would have not been ended by God Himself.

Netchaplain · Jan 3, 2012

I believe Romans 9 is Paul telling the Jews that they should enter salvation the way the Gentiles do, by faith and not by works. They will eventualy do so, during the Millinnium, but it will be a faith in Christ by sight, unlike the Gentiles who "believe without seeing" (Jhn 20:29), for Israel will see Christ and then believe and trust in Him. God will put His will in their being to cause them to want to follow Christ(Ro 9:30-33), as He now does with those who accept Christ, Jew or Gentile (Phil 2:13).

Colossians 2:11 shows Paul telling the Christian Jews that they are now in a different cicumcision, the circumcision, not of the flesh--Law, but of Christ--Grace (Col 2:10-14). These are not unsaved Jews Paul is teaching.

Episkopos · Jan 4, 2012

Netchaplain said:
I believe Romans 9 is Paul telling the Jews that they should enter salvation the way the Gentiles do, by faith and not by works. They will eventualy do so, during the Millinnium, but it will be a faith in Christ by sight, unlike the Gentiles who "believe without seeing" (Jhn 20:29), for Israel will see Christ and then believe and trust in Him. God will put His will in their being to cause them to want to follow Christ(Ro 9:30-33), as He now does with those who accept Christ, Jew or Gentile (Phil 2:13).

Colossians 2:11 shows Paul telling the Christian Jews that they are now in a different cicumcision, the circumcision, not of the flesh--Law, but of Christ--Grace (Col 2:10-14). These are not unsaved Jews Paul is teaching.

The millenium is not for the Jews and salvation. It is for training the saints to rule with Christ.

Where does it say in the bible that God will change the rules for a certain type of human? God does not respect our persons.

veteran · Jan 4, 2012

Netchaplain said:
I believe Romans 9 is Paul telling the Jews that they should enter salvation the way the Gentiles do, by faith and not by works. They will eventualy do so, during the Millinnium, but it will be a faith in Christ by sight, unlike the Gentiles who "believe without seeing" (Jhn 20:29), for Israel will see Christ and then believe and trust in Him. God will put His will in their being to cause them to want to follow Christ(Ro 9:30-33), as He now does with those who accept Christ, Jew or Gentile (Phil 2:13).

Colossians 2:11 shows Paul telling the Christian Jews that they are now in a different cicumcision, the circumcision, not of the flesh--Law, but of Christ--Grace (Col 2:10-14). These are not unsaved Jews Paul is teaching.

Paul's Message concerning his desire for his brethren of flesh Israel is from that Romans 9 chapter through... the Romans 11 chapter.

Paul was chosen by Christ Jesus to preach The Gospel to 3 groups: 1) Gentiles; 2) kings; and 3) children of Israel. So I'm sure he knew there were remnants of scattered Israel even among those Gentile Romans. Per secular and Biblical history, the majority of the twelve tribes of Israel were dwelling among the Gentiles in Paul's days.

In Romans 11, Paul goes into details about a remnant of Israel which God preserved unto Himself IN The Gospel of Jesus Christ by Grace, and then the 'rest' of Israel that were 'blinded'. Can't just exclude Paul's Message about God having blinded the unbelievers of Israel when considering his Message of the future time of Israel being saved.

So if God has blinded the rest of Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, so Gentile believers could be graffed in, like Apostle Paul taught in Rom.11, then it is very... wrong for us to judge the unbelieving Jews that still refuse Christ Jesus. Those of Israel that become part of Christ's Church today are part of that remnant of Israel according to the election of Grace which Paul taught there in Rom.11:1-5.

Netchaplain · Jan 7, 2012

Hi Epikopos. Can I know what you mean by "change the rules "?

I believe we will be judging and teaching Israel during our thousand year rule with Christ.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mat 19:28).

Episkopos · Jan 7, 2012

Netchaplain said:
Hi Epikopos. Can I know what you mean by "change the rules "?

I believe we will be judging and teaching Israel during our thousand year rule with Christ.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mat 19:28).

The saints will learn to rule over those who had received the mark of the beast; they who went along with the worldly system. There is no more possible attainment to sainthood during the millenium. That resurrection is past. Afterwards the nations will be judged...but this is for life or death...not glory or shame.
The doctrine of a millenial "second chance" for physical Israel has no purpose whatsoever and is a wishful fiction not supported in scripture.

Phillip · Jan 7, 2012

veteran said:
That looks like men's doctrines of Hyper-Dispensationalism... or worse, doctrines of Orthodox Judaism...

[/left]

Christ Jesus ended the Old Covenant, and brought The New Covenant in His Blood shed upon the cross. And the foundation of His Church rests upon that, as also do the Apostles and prophets. That just so happens to be one of the major... subjects of the Book of Hebrews along with Paul's Epistles! Might want to read it Netchaplain, because it's for us Christians today, since it's about Christ Jesus as The Saviour.

Stanford was simply a FOLLOWER of later Dispensationalists ideas built from earlier ideas of Plymouth Brethren and John Darby. So let's be honest about where the guy was coming from. You're pushing this stuff aligns with what a few others here have been pushing, like Richard Burger and dan p, and the name of that doctrine from men is Hyper-Dispensationalism, a BRAND of Dispensationalism which MAINSTREAM Dispensationalists do NOT follow.

Would a follower of Judaism agree with Stanford's accusation against Christ's Church? YEP!!! Orthodox Judaism doesn't accept Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. So naturally, they hate ANY ideas of God moving His Promises away from them and instead to Christ's Church. Too bad though, because that's exactly... what happened, even as Christ Jesus Himself said in Matt.21 about the taking away of His vineyard from the Jews who refused Him, and it would be given to another 'nation' that would produce its fruit. I suppose Miles Stanford forgot to read that Matthew 21 Scripture too!

Those who believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ and baptized in Him for the remission of sins IS The New Covenant of His Blood shed upon the cross. That's when forgiveness and remission of sins through Christ Jesus began. So when does The New Covenant have affect? When one believes on the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Have the unbelieving Jews believed? Obviously not, and won't as a people until Christ's future Milennium reign. That's what Paul was talking about there in pulling from Isaiah, for Paul also said the unbelievers of Israel wouldn't be turned until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. That fulness isn't over until Christ's second coming, which is yet future to us still.

Stanford should have read Paul's Epistles more closely...

Rom 6:1-11
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)

What's left remaining according to Paul? Our being glorified in the resurrection at Christ's return and establishing of His Kingdom on earth, i.e., the world to come. To reckon ourselves as dead unto sin, but alive unto God through His Son, THAT IS proof of The New Covenant by His Blood being already... in effect today!

What's the main difference between these following two verses about the "everlasting covenant"?

Ezek 37:26
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
(KJV)

Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, That brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, That great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(KJV)

BOTH are about the same New Covenant established through Christ's Blood shed upon the cross! So what other differences do those two verses have? Simple, one is about the New Covenant in Paul's days, and the Ezekiel reference is for after Christ's future return with the Milennium Sancturary that will be setup on the earth per Ezekiel 40-47. This is really... too easy folks!

That's why the false doctrine of Hyper-Dispensationalism really smells of false Jew doctrine against Christ's Church of this world! I mean, what more need Christ Jesus do to establish God's Promise of Salvation for those who believe on His death and Resurrection? The only thing left is Christ's actual return and our gathering to Him, the resurrection, and establishing His literal reign on the earth over all. Who but Orthodox Judaism wouldn't understand that today?

The rest of what Miles Stanford wrote just isn't worth commenting on.

Thank you for exposing the lies of dispensationalsim. Thank God there is still a light refuting the robbing doctrines of the devil.

Netchaplain · Jan 7, 2012

I would like to see Scripture support for this:

"The saints will learn to rule over those who had received the mark of the beast."

"There is no more possible attainment to sainthood during the millenium." Scripture shows no other time of Israel receiving the Abrahamic promises than during the above mentioned time of the twelve tribe judgement or another usage of the word "judgement" is teaching or discipleing of Israel. This promis hasn't occured yet, unless you believe the Apocalypse has already taken place. Not that I'm making any accusations but some believe that the wrath of God on the ungodly has already occured, which is the teachings of preterism (preterist). Israel will evetually belive in Christ and be saved. Ezekel 36:27

"That resurrection is past." I do not believe their has been a resurrection , besides Christ yet and if so then "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. . ." (Rev 20:6)

For everyones benefit, we should use scripture support for our claims so we can learn truth.

veteran · Jan 7, 2012

Netchaplain said:
I would like to see Scripture support for this:

....

For everyones benefit, we should use scripture support for our claims so we can learn truth.

Then the FIRST thing YOU need to do, is to STRIKE OUT YOUR ORIGINAL POST, which are MOSTLY words of a man not fully backed up by Scripture in God's Word!

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jan 7, 2012

Netchaplain said:
The Jew isn't suppose to be under the Law but as a nation, they still put themselves there, even though "He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second" (Hbr 10:9). They will remain so, until the Lord shows them Himself (Jews requires signs or proof, like Thomas), during the Millenium.

You're kidding, right?

Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: Matthew 12:38-39

Netchaplain · Jan 8, 2012

What I meant by "The Jew isn't suppose to be under the Law " is that they no longer are suppose to be under the Law because they're suppose to be under Christ. They will not be in Christ until the Lord and the Church teaches them during the Millinnium. "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mat 19:28).

I believe it will be two entities, redeemed Israel (Eze 36:27) and the Body of Christ or the Church, representing "one fold" (Jhn 10:16). I also believe the blessings will be different because Israel as a nation, will not believe in Christ until they see Him in the Millinnium. "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed (Jhn 20:29).

"For the Jews require a sign" (1Cr 1:22).

Netchaplain · Jan 8, 2012

Epikopos wrote,"The whole logic behind this seeks to separate what God has joined together in ONE Lord": I believe we are joined with Christian Jews, individual Isrealites who believe in Christ but as a nation, Israel and the Gentiles will be joined during the Millinnium per Eze 36:27. We will be united in being under Christ (one fold) but will always be seperate in our positions.

Israel will inherit the "new Earth" per Isa 60:21, because it's forever.

veteran · Jan 17, 2012

The "commonwealth of Israel" idea Apostle Paul taught in Ephesians 2 when speaking to believing Gentiles includes them ALSO as part of Israel now, and after Christ's return. It's about GOD'S concept of HIS Israel under Christ Jesus, per His Salvation Plan for all peoples that believe.

Thus when Christ returns, the unbelieving Gentiles will be in the same boat along with unbelieving Israel. The Isaiah Scripture Paul quoted about Israel being saved in Romans 9 does not automatically mean that part of Israel will be joined with Christ's saints in the Millennium who have followed Him. Ezekiel 44 instead shows the Levites who fell away when Israel strayed will instead bear their iniquity in shame. And that they must bear during the Millennium in order to be joined with Christ's saints in final.

Episkopos · Jan 17, 2012

Netchaplain said:
Hi Epikopos. Can I know what you mean by "change the rules "?

I believe we will be judging and teaching Israel during our thousand year rule with Christ.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mat 19:28).

The 12 thrones are for the twelve apostles. They are all Jewish in origin. So is the New Jerusalem with it's 12 gates. This is the Bride of Christ.

The saints rule over the nations during the millenium. This is per their learning to rule with Christ throughout eternity. Those same nations will rebel against the Lamb and His saints. This proves that the nature of fallen man has nothing really in common with the nature of God. Satan can easily manipulate the fallen nature and bend it to do his will. He is the originator of fallenness.

The millenial rule corrects all understanding...and the saints win this time....forever!

In Christ there are no more ethnicities. One has to die to all previous qualities (both "good" and evil) in order to begin from scratch in Christ. So origins become meaningless. It is hard for someone who puts value on their origins or qualities to come to Christ. Paul counted all things as dung that he might ne found in Christ. In Christ all creation is ONE.

Netchaplain · Jan 27, 2012

The Apostles will judge (teach) Israel (Mat 19:28) and the rest of the saints will judge (teach) the world. (1Cr 6:2).

Israel--Law / Church--Grace

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