“SPRINKLED FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE:” HEB 10:22 –Bob Hall (Netchaplain)

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veteran

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That goes without saying, yet they will be resurrected to glory.

But that still does not explain your contradicting statements of one time admitting that the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture is about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church AFTER... the tribulation, and then turning right around and saying just the opposite in a following post.

I'm not pointing that out to make you feel inferior or anything like that. I'm concerned for you as a Christian brother, for here we are today with the coming of a specific false messiah that's to work great signs and wonders being just around the corner, and you're obviously not prepared for it according to God's Word. So it's not about what we say, nor what man says, but what God says in His Word as written and sticking to it.
 

Lively Stone

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But that still does not explain your contradicting statements of one time admitting that the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture is about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church AFTER... the tribulation, and then turning right around and saying just the opposite in a following post.

I'm not pointing that out to make you feel inferior or anything like that. I'm concerned for you as a Christian brother, for here we are today with the coming of a specific false messiah that's to work great signs and wonders being just around the corner, and you're obviously not prepared for it according to God's Word. So it's not about what we say, nor what man says, but what God says in His Word as written and sticking to it.

I have contradicted nothing. Jesus doesn't gather His Church after the Tribulation, as His Church will be coming with Him when He comes to set up His earthly Kingdom.

I am well prepared to meet up with anyone who would present hiself as a messiah of any sort, for I have the word of God to repel the lies with. If the Antichrist were to come into world power with the Church still in the world, the Church would be able to defeat and depose him in nothing flat! It is the absence of the power of Jesus Christ in His people that allows the Antichrist to take power.

If anyone comes working major signs and wonders, I know it isn't Jesus! How would that be deceptive? Jesus isn't coming to perform signs and wonders! He is coming with His saints to rule and reign and there will be a great conflagration at His coming.
 

veteran

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If you believe any of us who have believed on Jesus Christ are 'raptured' prior to the END of the tribulation, then you have contradicted the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture of our Lord. Simple as that.

Here's a summary of what you have said on that point from the thread: A Systematic Study of the Rapture through the use of Bible Scriptures, not including within this thread.


by Lively Stone:
Post 33: Nonsense. The Antichrist will deceive the world, but we the Bride, are not the world, nor will the Bride be here. We who are Christ's can read the signs of His coming, and of the end of the age, and we may even see the early beginnings of the rise of the Antichrist and some may even recognze him---before we are caught away to the wedding of the Lamb.

Post 44: I am aware of what the word says, which includes the fact that the Tribulation is meant for the unbelieving world during that time that God has appointed to work with His people, Israel.

Post 46: The elect of that coming time are those people of Israel, whom God always refers to as His elect. The Church won't
be here, but will be at a wedding.

Post 55: This scenario of old demonstrates the pre-Tribulational events we can expect. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven, where a place has been prepared. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. According to Jewish tradition, after the marriage supper, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean"

Your belief in the time of the Church being 'raptured' is within the timeframe of the tribulation, and not AFTER... the tribulation like our Lord Jesus said.

That is... the pre-Trib rapture theory, because it denies that Christ's Church will be here on earth during it. The doctrine that puts Christ's Church as being raptured, with Israel still being left-behind on earth to go through the tribulation also... is the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of man. That's what you're preaching. And in order to do that you must... deny the Matt.24:29-31 Scripture as written.
 

Lively Stone

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Matthew 24:29-31

[sup]29[/sup] “Immediately after the anguish of those days,
the sun will be darkened,
the moon will give no light,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
[sup]30[/sup] And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [sup]31[/sup] And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.


I have no problem with this scripture and hold to a pre-Tribulational catching away of the Church.
 

Phillip

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Very nice original post Netch. Don't be concerned about those who attempt to negate your intended message by delving back into the sin and guilt of those who "depart from the faith" (of which wasn't your topic). They just have some over-focused issues to work through in their life is all probably.
I certainly rejoice in having my heart sprinkled from an evil conscience. Thank you Jesus!
 

Netchaplain

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Escatology is non-essential for salvation and therefore, if your belief in what Scripture reveals concerning it isn't accurate, this cannot effect your union with Christ!!! How we treat one another, esp. in the Household of Faith, can be an indicator of where we are. (Jhn 13:35).

You all be good now!!
 

veteran

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Matthew 24:29-31

[sup]29[/sup] “Immediately after the anguish of those days,
the sun will be darkened,
the moon will give no light,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
[sup]30[/sup] And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [sup]31[/sup] And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.


I have no problem with this scripture and hold to a pre-Tribulational catching away of the Church.

People aren't going to be fooled by your pretending to agree with that above Scripture when you really do not. It's impossible to hold to a belief that Christ raptures His Church to Heaven before that tribulation (or even during it) and be in agreement with Christ's statement of His coming and gathering of His saints after... that tribulation.
 

Lively Stone

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People aren't going to be fooled by your pretending to agree with that above Scripture when you really do not. It's impossible to hold to a belief that Christ raptures His Church to Heaven before that tribulation (or even during it) and be in agreement with Christ's statement of His coming and gathering of His saints after... that tribulation.

Accusations of pretense? Why are you personally attacking? How can one have a disussion with you? Get real. What is impossible is to consider the rapture of the Church (the seizing away of what rightfully belongs to Christ) and the second coming as the same event.
 

Netchaplain

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When it comes to salvation, justification and righteousness, there's nothing we can do to add, retain or detract from them, "For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable" (Rom 11:29).

I post this, not to refute anyone, but to continue to show truth concerning eternal security in Christ and without such assurance, one would be in the same fears as unbelievers. To lack understanding, due to ignorance, is accepted, for those who seek truth to live by it, in which case God will eventually bestow understanding (Jam 1:5).
 
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jiggyfly

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When it comes to salvation, justification and righteousness, there's nothing we can do to add, retain or detract from them, "For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable" (Rom 11:29).

I post this, not to refute anyone, but to continue to show truth concerning eternal security in Christ and without such assurance, one would be in the same fears as unbelievers. To lack understanding, due to ignorance, is accepted, for those who seek truth to live by it, in which case God will eventually bestow understanding (Jam 1:5).

Very good NC, salvation is the work of God, we can't make it better nor can we wreck it. :)
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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I think the point Netchaplain is trying to make is that there is no condemnation in Christ. Period. We have a refuge where we will never be condemned. The blood of the lamb covers our past sins and our present sin. When we walk in that reality through faith, we do not sin. When we do sin it is our own conscience that condemns us, not God. When our conscience condemns us, we cannot have fellowship with God's love. Obedience is turning from that condemnation towards God's grace to receive cleansing of our conscience through his spirit, so that we can walk in the light and do good works.
 

jiggyfly

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I think the point Netchaplain is trying to make is that there is no condemnation in Christ. Period. We have a refuge where we will never be condemned. The blood of the lamb covers our past sins and our present sin. When we walk in that reality through faith, we do not sin. When we do sin it is our own conscience that condemns us, not God. When our conscience condemns us, we cannot have fellowship with God's love. Obedience is turning from that condemnation towards God's grace to receive cleansing of our conscience through his spirit, so that we can walk in the light and do good works.

Maybe I misunderstood his post and in that case offer my apologies. I am wondering about your statement "When our conscience condemns us, we cannot have fellowship with God's love" and where in the scriptures this is taught?
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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I am wondering about your statement "When our conscience condemns us, we cannot have fellowship with God's love" and where in the scriptures this is taught?

I'm not sure whether heart or conscience is the right word. John uses heart; Peter and Paul use conscience.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1 John 3:18-22

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:14

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

All quotes are from the King James. I believe the last should read, 'a good inquiry of conscience towards God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ'. I do believe the witness of our own consciences (knowledge of good and evil) will be used to judge us in the last day.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

And he saith unto [the servant with one talent], Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, [thou] wicked servant. ... Luke 19:22

I could elaborate on this extensively, but hopefully this will suffice.
 

jiggyfly

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I'm not sure whether heart or conscience is the right word. John uses heart; Peter and Paul use conscience.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1 John 3:18-22

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:14

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

All quotes are from the King James. I believe the last should read, 'a good inquiry of conscience towards God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ'. I do believe the witness of our own consciences (knowledge of good and evil) will be used to judge us in the last day.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

And he saith unto [the servant with one talent], Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, [thou] wicked servant. ... Luke 19:22

I could elaborate on this extensively, but hopefully this will suffice.
I can see that heart or conscience could be used but it's the last part I am having trouble with, the "cannot have fellowship with God's love". Paul said he was convinced that nothing could ever separate us from God's love. Romans 8:35-39
 

Lively Stone

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Does this help?

1 John 3:24
Those who obey God’s commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them. And we know he lives in us because the Spirit he gave us lives in us.

1 John 1:6
So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth.
 

ttruscott

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Wow this came up fast! :)

Here's something to think about...

Here is a study on our need for holiness and how it was taught at the very beginning...(taken from a longer work):

11. MISFITS, the first.[1]

Well, just about last, and quite possibly least, there are a few verses that just do not seem to fit very well into any category, exceptional or otherwise! (Imagine, they are just like the elect! There always seems to be a few on the perimeter, although these days there seems to be quite a few. But hooray for Christian preconception existence theology; it even has a place for the misfits, howbeit, on the Earth, somewhat near the end!)

Genesis 3:21 - For Adam also and for his wife did the LORD GOD make coats of skin, and clothed them.

In this type[2] there are four things.

First is the fig leaves of Genesis 3:7b - … and they sewed fig leaves together…

Second is the aprons of 3:7c - … and made themselves aprons.

Third is the shed blood (which is not mentioned, but you do
not obtain animal skins without shedding some blood).

Fourth is the skin coats of 3:21.

Thus we have four separate things being combined in two ways, to wit: the fig leaf - aprons, and the blood - skin coats.

To understand the spiritual truth conveyed in this type, we must first understand what the two dualities or combinations represent. Therefore, let's take a look to see what these things represent in the spiritual realms.

The first combination is the fig leaf - aprons. May I suggest that these represent Adam and Eve's attempt to be reconciled with GOD, i.e., their attempt to escape the penalty for being naked and disobedient (disfellowship and impending death), viz., their attempt to be where they were before they were (bad) naked and disobedient, i.e., to have true peace with GOD again.

In other words, the fig leaf - aprons would represent the way for them to become righteous again (so far as being naked and this command are concerned), and holy (no longer willing to accept the serpent as a good person) if they would have worked.

However because they did not work, they must represent all false or counterfeit ways of becoming righteous and holy.[3] In other words, they symbolise a counterfeit Christianity.[4]

Second comes the blood and coats of skin. May I suggest that these represent GOD's provision for their reconciliation with HIM (which we will look into a little deeper in a moment).

The next thing I'd like to examine is the reason(s) why the fig leaf - aprons did not work. Why was GOD not satisfied with this covering of their nakedness? Why were they still the same as being naked in HIS sight? Well I believe that they did not work because they failed to stop that which was out to kill them (which Adam and Eve had set in motion by eating the fruit).

Now they were not going to die because the fruit was poisonous. The fruit itself was good on three counts. The reason they were going to die was because of the poisonousness of the act of eating, that is, the poisonousness of the act of disobeying GOD.[5]

Hence, we can see that what they had done wrong is that they had set aside GOD's purpose for them and were doing something else instead. (All by mistake, of course!) Now this is a very grave situation indeed, even worse than eating poison.[6]

Hence, we can see that what was out to get them was GOD's justice and holiness, that is, the retributive and exilic demands of these two attributes.

Hence we can see that the fig leaf - aprons did not work
first, because nothing had borne the wrath of GOD {ripping leaves off fig trees does not satisfy GOD's wrath (justice) nor does self-imposed suffering[7], viz., the religion of man - Adam.}

Second, they did not work because Adam and Eve were still not willing to fulfil GOD's purpose for them, viz., GOD's purpose for them was not that they should be “dressed in fig leaves". He wanted them to be clothed with something else.[8] Thus the fig leaf - aprons failed to satisfy both HIS justice and HIS holiness.

The third thing we need to examine is the two aspects of the blood - coats that worked.

The first aspect is that GOD judged (killed) some animal(s) on their behalf, that is, instead of them. Thus HIS justice “was satisfied” because something else had borne the retribution for them.

The second aspect is that GOD clothed them with the skins of the slain animal(s). This covering fitted HIS purpose for them.[9] It was the kind of clothes HE wanted them to wear.

I hope that you can see that this little episode constitutes a good example on how to get back together with GOD to the extent of “getting back into HIS garden in peace”.

The shed blood typlifies the sacrifice of Jesus that can satisfy GOD's justice and justify us. (The holy elect are now and forever righteous by this free gift from GOD.) The putting on and wearing of the coats which satisfied GOD's holiness, typlifies the putting on (permanently) of the new person created in righteousness and holiness (justified by Jesus' sacrifice and permanently separated in spirit from GOD's enemies, viz., willing to judge them, viz., faithful in GOD's sight as per Ephesians 4:24, 5:27[10]).

Now, it is of the utmost importance to make the distinction between the blood and the coats, that is, you must realise that HE did not cover their nakedness by the shed blood of the animal(s), that is, through the shedding of the blood that can justify. Rather, it was the putting on and wearing of the skin coats that covered their nakedness, that is, that brought them back into a peaceful relationship with GOD. In other words, they were not forgiven until they had put on the coats.

Therefore, we should be able to see that although the shedding of the blood was involved with and a necessary prerequisite to their being covered,[11] the foremost or most vital aspect was the putting on of the coats.

For example, 3:21 says absolutely nothing about the sacrificial death(s). In other words, even though the blood has been shed, the Church still can not get back into the garden (past the judgement) until it has put on the coats, viz., until we all put on the person created in holiness, viz., until we all become holy, which is much different than believing in the blood (realising that Jesus died for our sin).[12]

Now this would all be quite easy to understand except for the fact that there are these other interpretations that say that all you need to be saved, reborn, forgiven, redeemed, adopted, whisked away to Paradise when you die, granted eternal life, made righteous, made holy, made perfect, resurrected, et cetera, is to be covered by a belief in the shed blood.

In other words, you do not have to be holy to have any of these things. Holiness is just an added extra, it does not matter when you pick it up. Take your time. (Fig leaves are still in fashion!!!!)

Well in spite of the ever increasing mound of Biblical Scholarship, it is not too hard to understand if one keeps in mind that there are two different aspects to having peace with GOD, to wit: the blood and the coats, viz., not just the fact of the shed blood and the acceptance or belief in that fact, but two different facts.

The blood is a free gift to the holy elect (viz., to those whose faith is unto holiness). GOD does all this work. There is nothing you can do to merit being justified, viz., to merit escaping GOD's wrath, the penalty due for your sin. It is done, complete, finished. You are righteous[13]: just as righteous as GOD, just as righteous as if you had never sinned, and just as righteous as you will ever be. GOD's justice has absolutely no claim in your regard.

Now, the situation is not the same for the coats. Christ's sacrifice does not make you holy, viz., willing to judge HIS enemies. No indeed! That is something you have to do. It is a work,[14] a very hard work, a work you are not willing to do for if you were, you would not be here.[15] Furthermore, without this work, your “faith” (justification) means nothing,[16] viz., you are still kept out of “Eden”, you still do not have true peace with GOD,[17] you are still not forgiven, redeemed, reborn, adopted, for if HE held HIS judgement, you too would be judged on account of your abiding unity with HIS enemies.


But, on account of GOD's election of some, HE will never hold HIS judgement until all the elect become holy.[18] To say it another way, if you are not holy at the time of HIS judgement, it will not matter how much faith you have, you will not be forgiven, you will be condemned (Matthew 7:21, 22:11).[19]

In other words, without holiness we are in the position Adam and Eve were in just after GOD had killed the animal(s), but before they had put on the skin coats, viz., standing there with their fig leaves on, believing in the blood, thankful as can be,[20] but naked as new born babes in GOD's sight.

To put in NT terms, we are in the same position as the Laodiceans of Revelation 3:17 - Knowest not that thou are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked?

Here Jesus again uses the examples of nakedness and blindness to show the Church its needs,[21] but He is doing this after His sacrifice had been made and they had been “converted”.[22]

This means that the “needed” things or emphasis was entirely upon their need for holiness in order that they could be right with Him, for they no longer needed that GOD should make a sacrifice to justify them.

What they needed was to put on the coats, the new man in Christ, in order that they could truly have peace with Him.

As Jesus said in Revelation 3:17-20 - I counsel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, (unadulterated or holy faith), that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed (symbolic of purification unto holiness) and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear (to all the covered, you are stopping My judgement); and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see (that MY enemies are irrevocable in their choice to be evil, you must become holy). As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous, therefore, and repent (of your unholiness). Behold, I stand at (outside) the door (of the heart of this kind of Christian); and knock (seek acceptance of My holy word). If any man hear My voice, and open the door (come into unity with My holiness); I will come into him, and will sup with him (commune intimately, you will no longer be alone), and he with Me.

So then, when it comes to being saved from GOD's wrath and having peace with HIM, there is nothing you can do and there is something you must do.[23] There is nothing you can do because your saving sacrifice must be wrought by GOD. There is something you must do because you must put on the coat (white raiment), viz., become holy, viz., become willing to judge HIS enemies, viz., open the door to HIM and let HIM in, viz., be adopted, viz., repent, at least of your unholiness.

In other words, the mere belief in HIS saving sacrifice gets you no closer to GOD's kingdom than you are right now. Until you repent and open up (believe) to the extent of being holy, you are just putting in correctional time, either down here or in the worlds of the dead. We were “put out” for not being holy and we will not get back in until we are holy, even though the blood has been shed.

In other words, without holiness we just stay in the exilic state we have been in for the last ~6000 years, and Jesus will not clean up this place (hold His judgement), until it fulfils the purpose HE created it to do, viz., to bring everyone of the elect unto repentance and faith unto holiness, and when it does, then we will get to live in the Promised Land in peace.[24]
~RLC
---------------------------------
Notes for 11, Misfits, the first

1 - Otherwise known as the uncategory.

2 - This is a very important type (example) and I am afraid that very many people have not fully understood it. Therefore, because it is so important and so misunderstood, I would like to add my say to the already large pile of Biblical Scholarship.

In other words, since (many of) our theologians have erred in their diagnosis of the cause of our problems with GOD, perhaps we should take another look at the solution GOD gave us in Genesis, because they probably made some mistakes there too, being that these things are so intimately related.

In other words, this is not a verse that gives direct proof that we existed before our conception but rather, it shows that the Scriptures say that the most important aspect of having “peace with GOD again in Eden” is our becoming holy, which fact exactly matches preconception existence theology.

3 - I.e., of getting back to Eden.

4 - Otherwise known as unsaving faith. Checked lately to see what material your raiment (wedding garment) is made of? Or didn't you know that fig leaves are now being marketed under the brand name “Whiter than white linen"? Checked to see if it is clean and well pressed, as per Ephesians 5:27?

5 - Hence, the poisonousness of being unholy, since that is why they disobeyed.

6 - If you do not recognise the gravity of the situation, please refer back to the WAGES OF SIN, about page 16 in THY WILL BE DONE.

7 - See Genesis note 33 on fig leaves.

8 - Most likely in the willingness to judge and be separate from HIS enemies, viz., in faith unto holiness at least. It is not explicit in the Scriptures, but from the general drift of Genesis 3:7-14, it seems that they were very close to the serpent when GOD found them. Was it just ironic coincidence, or could it be that they went to the serpent for help to hide? Perhaps they were just mysteriously drawn to his presence?

9 - Most likely because it symbolised believing in GOD to the degree of being willing to not ever eat of the forbidden fruit anymore, that is, of not ever listening to the serpent anymore, that is, it symbolised their being holy.

10 - Ephesians 4:24 and 5:27 - And that ye put on the new man, which after GOD is created in righteousness and true holiness. / That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (in this regard at least).

11 - Viz., being forgiven, made righteous, made holy, at peace with GOD.

12 - As Jesus warned (the latter day Church) in Luke 17:21 - Remember Lot's wife. She had to look back to her family and friends. I guess she did not like what she saw, viz., she did not think that GOD was right to hurt them that much, viz., she suddenly became unholy! Hence, she was judged with them. And just how many other “Christians" are like Mrs. Disobedient Unholy Lot? Lots right? (Hence, we may get the great falling away of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.)

13 - If you have the holiness coat on.

14 - Much to M. Luther and everyone else's dismay!

15 - There is a possible exception here but it's very expensive. Maybe I’ll tell you about it next year.

16 - As per James 2:20. And please take note of his example of saving faith in action in verse 21.

17 - Although you might be convinced, somewhat akin to the Laodicean delusion of Revelation 3:17, that you do have peace with GOD. Of the seven Churches, I believe that this is the one that has the most members.

18 - Which event He may bring to pass in just a few short years, so don't go too slow on it.

19 - Matthew 7:21, 22:11 - Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father… / … and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, He saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. … and (He said, "You!") cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

How are you going to do when he starts weeping “in repentance”? Are you still going to do the will of the Father who wants you to throw him out?

20 - And maybe even getting religious about it.

21 - I believe He was alluding to this very situation in Genesis. [22] - But they were no longer naked. They had their fig leaves on! There is a big difference between conversion and adoption. Sometimes they happen at the same time, but usually they take place many years apart (just like there is a big difference between getting out of Egypt and getting into the Promised Land, or between falling in love and getting married, i.e., being adopted into your partner's family).

23 - Otherwise known as the faith and works dilemma. Saving faith brings forth certain works, or repentance to a certain degree, viz., you will stop doing most of your sins, but you will not stop completely, viz., become perfect. Some of these sins are listed in the NT, to wit: fornication, stealing, lying, et cetera (see 1 Corinthians 5:11, 6:9; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5 and Revelation 21:8).

Well, in addition to all such evils, I hope that you can now see that you can not have saving faith and still be unholy, as per James 4:4 - know ye not that the friendship of the world (any member, even if it is your infant child, Matthew 10:37) is enmity with GOD. In other words, the angels will get you out of Sodom, but you can not disobey, viz., look back, even if your family and friends are back there screaming, wailing, howling, and being roasted alive in GOD’s judgement.

24 - This very same example is reiterated in both Testaments too. In the OT, we have blood of the Passover (Paschal) Lamb, as well as its body, with the bitter herbs and holiness, viz., the willingness to leave Egypt immediately, and one was not covered by the blood unless one was willing to fulfil these other requirements as well.

In the NT, we have the broken Loaf and the Wine, and the blood does not cover one unless one is also willing to partake of it and of the Loaf. And I believe that it is correct to say that one must be willing to eat and drink all of it, that there can not be any of it left over (out) because that is sin. (It seems to me that if one is going to believe in the transubstantiation of the bread and wine, one must also believe the same about the flesh of the paschal lamb and the sin offering.)
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Jan 6, 2012
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I can see that heart or conscience could be used but it's the last part I am having trouble with, the "cannot have fellowship with God's love". Paul said he was convinced that nothing could ever separate us from God's love. Romans 8:35-39

See Lively Stone's comments below yours. Don't confuse salvation with fellowship.
 

Lively Stone

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Jan 15, 2012
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No, nothing but our dead flesh is buried in a casket in the ground. Our loved ones are not there. They are with Christ.


Luke 20:34-38
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.
(KJV)

Amen, brother, they sure are! Yet there is a resurrection coming for all believers, praise God!

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

[sup]51 [/sup]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [sup]52 [/sup]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Escatology is non-essential for salvation and therefore, if your belief in what Scripture reveals concerning it isn't accurate, this cannot effect your union with Christ!!! How we treat one another, esp. in the Household of Faith, can be an indicator of where we are. (Jhn 13:35).

You all be good now!!

Amen, brother!
 

Netchaplain

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Pleas excuse this lengthy post, but I thought it ecactologically helpful. Matthew 24:29-31:

Verse 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days,.... That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment, or what should befall the church, or world, a little before that time, or should be accomplished in the whole intermediate time, between the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last judgment: for all that is said to account for such a sense, as that it was usual with the prophets to speak of judgments afar off as near; and that the apostles often speak of the coming of Christ, the last judgment, and the end of the world, as just at hand; and that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, will not answer to the word "immediately," or show that that should be understood of two thousand years after: besides, all the following things were to be fulfilled before that present generation, in which Christ lived, passed away, Matthew 24:34 and therefore must be understood of things that should directly, and immediately take place upon, or at the destruction of the city and temple.

Shall the sun be darkened: not in a literal but in a figurative sense; and is to be understood not of the religion of the Jewish church; nor of the knowledge of the law among them, and the decrease of it; nor of the Gospel being obscured by heretics and false teachers; nor of the temple of Jerusalem, senses which are given into by one or another; but of the Shekinah, or the divine presence in the temple. The glory of God, who is a sun and a shield, filled the tabernacle, when it was reared up; and so it did the temple, when it was built and dedicated; in the most holy place, Jehovah took up his residence; here was the symbol of his presence, the mercy seat, and the two cherubim over it: and though God had for some time departed from this people, and a voice was heard in the temple before its destruction, saying, "let us go hence"; yet the token of the divine presence remained till the utter destruction of it; and then this sun was wholly darkened, and there was not so much as the outward symbol of it:

and the moon shall not give her light; which also is to be explained in a figurative and metaphorical sense; and refers not to the Roman empire, which quickly began to diminish; nor to the city of Jerusalem; nor to the civil polity of the nation; but to the ceremonial law, the moon, the church is said to have under her feet, Revelation 12:1 so called because the observance of new moons was one part of it, and the Jewish festivals were regulated by the moon; and especially, because like the moon, it was variable and changeable. Now, though this, in right, was abolished at the death of Christ, and ceased to give any true light, when he, the substance, was come; yet was kept up by the Jews, as long as their temple was standing; but when that was destroyed, the daily sacrifice, in fact, ceased, and so it has ever since; the Jews esteeming it unlawful to offer sacrifice in a strange land, or upon any other altar than that of Jerusalem; and are to this day without a sacrifice, and without an ephod:

and the stars shall fall from heaven; which phrase, as it elsewhere intends the doctors of the church, and preachers falling off from purity of doctrine and conversation; so here it designs the Jewish Rabbins and doctors, who departed from the word of God, and set up their traditions above it, fell into vain and senseless interpretations of it, and into debates about things contained in their Talmud; the foundation of which began to be laid immediately upon their dispersion into other countries:

and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; meaning all the ordinances of the legal dispensation; which shaking, and even removing of them, were foretold by Haggai 2:6 and explained by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, Hebrews 12:26 whereby room and way were made for Gospel ordinances to take place, and be established; which shall not be shaken, so as to be removed, but remain till the second coming of Christ. The Jews themselves are sensible, and make heavy complaints of the great declensions and alterations among them, since the destruction of the temple; for after having taken notice of the death of several of their doctors, who died a little before, or after that; and that upon their death ceased the honour of the law, the splendour of wisdom, and the glory of the priesthood, they add {g}; "from the time that the temple was destroyed, the wise men, and sons of nobles, were put to shame, and they covered their heads; liberal men were reduced to poverty; and men of violence and calumny prevailed; and there were none that expounded, or inquired, or asked. R. Elezer the great, said, from the time the sanctuary were destroyed, the wise men began to be like Scribes, and the Scribes like to the Chazans, (or sextons that looked after the synagogues,) and the Chazans like to the common people, and the common people grew worse and worse, and there were none that inquired and asked;" that is, of the wise men there were no scholars, or very few that studied in the law.

{g} Misn. Sotah, c. 9. sect. 15.

Verse 30. And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven,.... Not the sound of the great trumpet, mentioned in the following verse; nor the clouds of heaven in this; nor the sign of the cross appearing in the air, as it is said to do in the times of Constantine: not the former; for though to blow a trumpet is sometimes to give a sign, and is an alarm; and the feast which the Jews call the day of blowing the trumpets, Numbers 29:1 is, by the Septuagint, rendered hmera shmasiav, "the day of signification"; yet this sign is not said to be sounded, but to appear, or to be seen, which does not agree with the sounding of a trumpet: much less can this design the last trumpet at the day of judgment, since of that the text does not speak; and, for the same reason, the clouds cannot be meant in which Christ will come to judgment, nor are clouds in themselves any sign of it: nor the latter, of which there is no hint in the word of God, nor any reason to expect it, nor any foundation for it; nor is any miraculous star intended, such as appeared at Christ's first coming, but the son of man himself: just as circumcision is called the sign of circumcision, Romans 4:11 and Christ is sometimes called a sign, Luke 2:34 as is his resurrection from the dead, Matthew 12:39 and here the glory and majesty in which he shall come: and it may be observed, that the other evangelists make no mention of the sign, only speak of the son of man, Mark 13:26 and he shall appear, not in person, but in the power of his wrath and vengeance, on the Jewish nation which will be a full sign and proof of his being come: for the sense is, that when the above calamities shall be upon the civil state of that people, and there will be such changes in their ecclesiastical state it will be as clear a point, that Christ is come in the flesh, and that he is also come in his vengeance on that nation, for their rejection and crucifixion him, as if they had seen him appear in person in the heavens. They had been always seeking a sign, and were continually asking one of him; and now they will have a sign with a witness; as they had accordingly.

And then shall the tribes of the earth, or land, mourn; that is, the land of Judea; for other lands, and countries, were not usually divided into tribes, as that was; neither were they affected with the calamities and desolations of it, and the vengeance of the son of man upon it; at least not so as to mourn on that account, but rather were glad and rejoiced:

and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see," as is expressed by Christ, in Matthew 26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them: and when they felt the power of his arm, might, if not blind and stupid to the last degree, see the glory of his person, that he was more than a mere man, and no other than the Son of God, whom they had despised, rejected, and crucified; and who came to set up his kingdom and glory in a more visible and peculiar manner, among the Gentiles.

Verse 31. And he shall send his angels,.... Not the angels, i.e. ministering spirits, so called, not from their nature, but their office, as being sent forth by God and Christ; but men angels, or messengers, the ministers and preachers of the Gospel, whom Christ would call, qualify, and send forth into all the world of the Gentiles, to preach his Gospel, and plant churches there still more, when that at Jerusalem was broken up and dissolved. These are called "angels," because of their mission, and commission from Christ, to preach the Gospel; and because of their knowledge and understanding in spiritual things; and because of their zeal, diligence, and watchfulness.

With a great sound of a trumpet, meaning the Gospel; see Isaiah 27:13 so called in allusion either to the silver trumpets which Moses was ordered to make of one piece, and use them for the calling of the assembly, the journeying of the camps, blowing an alarm for war, and on their solemn and festival days, Numbers 10:1. The Gospel being rich and precious, all of a piece, useful for gathering souls to Christ, and to his churches; to direct saints in their journey to Canaan's land; to encourage them to fight the Lord's battles; and is a joyful sound, being a sound of love, grace, and mercy, peace, pardon, righteousness, life and salvation, by Christ: or else so called, in allusion to the trumpet blown in the year of "jubilee"; which proclaimed rest to the land, liberty to prisoners, a release of debts, and restoration of inheritances; as the Gospel publishes rest in Christ, liberty to the captives of sin, Satan, and the law, a payment of debts by Christ, and a release from them upon that, and a right and title to the heavenly inheritance. The Vulgate Latin reads it, "with a trumpet, and a great voice"; and so does Munster's Hebrew Gospel; and so it was read in four of Beza's copies:

and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other; that is, by the ministration of the Gospel; the Spirit of God accompanying it with his power, and grace, the ministers of the word should gather out of the world unto Christ, and to his churches, such persons as God had, before the foundation of the world, chosen in Christ, unto salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth; wherever they are under the whole heavens, from one end to another; or in any part of the earth, though at the greatest distance; for in Mr 13:27 it is said, "from the uttermost part of the earth, to the uttermost part of the heaven." The Jews {h} say, that "in the after redemption (i.e. by the Messiah) all Israel shall be gathered together by the sound of a trumpet, from the four parts of the world."