Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?

veteran · Jan 8, 2012

Prism's quote is exactly how Paul defined our relationship per Romans 7, a chapter many like to leave out.

Rom 8:7-10
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(KJV)

If Christ be in us, then our body (flesh) is dead BECAUSE of sin even while in it. But obviously we are still alive here in the flesh, not having been literally redeemed by Christ yet at His second coming in the world to come. Until then, righteousness can only be imputed to us through Faith, just as it was for Abraham (Gal.3). Thus while we are yet in the flesh, we are to 'reckon' our flesh as already dead with being in Christ Jesus. To 'reckon' our flesh as dead is in the spiritual sense, even though our flesh is not yet literally dead (Rom.6).

Many in the Church are being subjected to doctrines of Mysticism about this, which is about the idea of attaining the perfection of Christ to include our flesh, when our Lord Jesus and His Apostles made clear dividing lines between flesh and spirit. Lot of the modern Bible translations are designed to lead into that false thinking by removing that separate flesh vs. spirit distinction. It's the origin of the many imitation of Christ type doctrines, the idea that we each can become our own Christ, having the power to be "a Christ".

Don't let the mystics fool you into that line of reasoning about false ideas of the flesh being made perfect, for it's an old pagan mystic trick that even Americans like Thomas Paine and Johannes Kelpius fell into. It's a false idea that the initiatic mystical fraternities still espouse today. We do not ever become our 'own' Christ, and our sinful flesh should be enough evidence to reveal that, otherwise we would not need Christ Jesus The Saviour. We could instead save ourselves if that were true.

NicholasMarks · Jan 8, 2012

We are all sinners and the wages of sin is death.

There is only one interpretation here. All the health problems we incur are the result of damaging our own genetics because we all die from genetic distress. We also carry the sins of our fathers and our forefathers so hereditary distress is also captured here. If we are clear of these problems we are sinless and thereby...do not die.

This poses the question...what is to be done to make our genetic distresses better? Only Jesus Christ can answer this...and he said..."I am the way, the truth and the life, those that follow me will never die" So following Jesus accurately upbuilds within us a robust, spirit which doubles as a tool which gives us everlasting life and a mechanism which can slowly repair our genetic health.

Worth a try, isn't it?

aspen · Jan 8, 2012

Episkopos said:
It is not my perfection...it is the Lord's perfection. I am trying to show you the nature of the gospel and the Christian life in Jesus. Those who know this life realize that the power is from God. Only in the Spirit can we take EVERY thought captive for Christ. If we are filled with the Spirit and overflowing there is no room for any impurity. Try filling an overflowing glass! Rather, we influence the world through the grace that springs out of us and change the world around us.

A gospel that is lacking this power to change the believer and the world around is NOT the true gospel.

Here is the problem, God has not made you perfect. God's power within you is not manifested through perfection. You are misleading people by ignoring your sinfulness and claiming that God has made you perfect. I have no doubt that God will finish a good work which he started within you through justification and sanctification, but you are not in Heaven yet.

I believe God purposely does not wave a magic wand to make us perfect immediately because our perfection would be misunderstood by nonbelievers as arrogance. Also, loving unselfishly needs to be practiced or worked out with fear and trembling.

You do not love perfectly, Episkopos, but you will someday.

How do you explain the sin you know you commit everyday, now that God has perfected you? Is it simply dismissed or is it justified like many people like to do when they encounter horrific verses attributed to God in the OT?

Thankful 1 · Jan 8, 2012

For almost thirty years I have been trying to explain to people, who believe they are Christians that a spiritual Christian will not sin. The only people who seem to understand are those Christians who are spiritual. Yet Jesus keeps telling me to continue sharing.

For people who are not spiritual everyone sins, and if someone says they don’t sin, then in their minds, those people are just deceived.

A non-spiritual person seems to be blind to the spiritual aspect of Christianity. Why do people stay non-spiritual? Is it because no one is living the whole Word of God? Jesus told us that if one obeys him he and the Father would make their home in them. Now if one has God making his home in them then they would be spiritual.

(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

Episkopos · Jan 8, 2012

veteran said:
Prism's quote is exactly how Paul defined our relationship per Romans 7, a chapter many like to leave out.

Rom 8:7-10
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(KJV)

If Christ be in us, then our body (flesh) is dead BECAUSE of sin even while in it. But obviously we are still alive here in the flesh, not having been literally redeemed by Christ yet at His second coming in the world to come. Until then, righteousness can only be imputed to us through Faith, just as it was for Abraham (Gal.3). Thus while we are yet in the flesh, we are to 'reckon' our flesh as already dead with being in Christ Jesus. To 'reckon' our flesh as dead is in the spiritual sense, even though our flesh is not yet literally dead (Rom.6).

Many in the Church are being subjected to doctrines of Mysticism about this, which is about the idea of attaining the perfection of Christ to include our flesh, when our Lord Jesus and His Apostles made clear dividing lines between flesh and spirit. Lot of the modern Bible translations are designed to lead into that false thinking by removing that separate flesh vs. spirit distinction. It's the origin of the many imitation of Christ type doctrines, the idea that we each can become our own Christ, having the power to be "a Christ".

Don't let the mystics fool you into that line of reasoning about false ideas of the flesh being made perfect, for it's an old pagan mystic trick that even Americans like Thomas Paine and Johannes Kelpius fell into. It's a false idea that the initiatic mystical fraternities still espouse today. We do not ever become our 'own' Christ, and our sinful flesh should be enough evidence to reveal that, otherwise we would not need Christ Jesus The Saviour. We could instead save ourselves if that were true.

What is not being understood here is the indwelling of Christ IN us at THIS time. The fleshly body is a tent we live in presently. It is weak to be sure...but sinful? Only the actions that are done are sinful. Otherwise Jesus would have been sinful by just having a physical DNA. The physical body is not sinful in itself. This teaching is gnosticism...a heresy that was soundly refuted by Paul, and especially John. Many people tried explaining away the true power of the gospel by saying that the spiritual reality was only in the future...that we just needed a saving "gnosis" (knowledge) and then our own actions no longer mattered. This took the message outside the realm of reality so that the world was not affected whatsoever by the Spirit.

We see the resurgence of this as faith wanes in the world. People can no longer accept the gospel as little children believing that the God of the whole universe cannot change a man into a son of God in reality. There is instead a strange disconnect with reality together with a belief that we sow in the flesh to reap of the Spirit. This concept is contrary to the word of God. We actually do reap what we sow.

If we sow to the flesh (while believing in a future victory over sin) we will die. If we sow to the Spirit and IN the Spirit (knowing that God can accomplish His will in us) then we will live. Nothing has changed in the message. The hearers just no longer believe in the present power of the gospel. We were warned of the end times.

aspen said:
Here is the problem, God has not made you perfect. God's power within you is not manifested through perfection. You are misleading people by ignoring your sinfulness and claiming that God has made you perfect. I have no doubt that God will finish a good work which he started within you through justification and sanctification, but you are not in Heaven yet.

I believe God purposely does not wave a magic wand to make us perfect immediately because our perfection would be misunderstood by nonbelievers as arrogance. Also, loving unselfishly needs to be practiced or worked out with fear and trembling.

You do not love perfectly, Episkopos, but you will someday.

How do you explain the sin you know you commit everyday, now that God has perfected you? Is it simply dismissed or is it justified like many people like to do when they encounter horrific verses attributed to God in the OT?

We walk by faith not by sight. If we see things with our natural eyes we will sin. But if we are empowered by the Spirit then we see exactly as Jesus sees. Without Jesus we can do nothing. BUT...with Jesus we can do all things. Difficult as it may be to believe THAT is the truth.

Thankful 1 said:
For almost thirty years I have been trying to explain to people, who believe they are Christians that a spiritual Christian will not sin. The only people who seem to understand are those Christians who are spiritual. Yet Jesus keeps telling me to continue sharing.

For people who are not spiritual everyone sins, and if someone says they don’t sin, then in their minds, those people are just deceived.

A non-spiritual person seems to be blind to the spiritual aspect of Christianity. Why do people stay non-spiritual? Is it because no one is living the whole Word of God? Jesus told us that if one obeys him he and the Father would make their home in them. Now if one has God making his home in them then they would be spiritual.

(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

Very good. You cannot explain to a blind person what you are seeing...he will not believe you because he judges the world from himself. But there is a penalty to limiting the bible and the words of Christ to oneself and what one sees. They have ears and cannot hear and eyes that only see the world apart from God.

Imagine a world where everybody is a "Christian" but the world stays at it always was...no change. No victory. That is the modern gospel.

Vashti · Jan 8, 2012

Personally I do not support the position "since we are in the bodies we turn a blind eye to minor (and bigger) sins, after all, no one is perfect."

But on the other hand, I think of Episkopos falls into the other extreme. I have a question - do you not confess your sins to God, never repent of errors or trips, because you do not have to what?

what do you think about this passage of Scripture:

1Jo 1:7-10 esv "(7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. (8) If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Episkopos · Jan 8, 2012

Vashti said:
Personally I do not support the position "since we are in the bodies we turn a blind eye to minor (and bigger) sins, after all, no one is perfect."

But on the other hand, I think of Episkopos falls into the other extreme. I have a question - do you not confess your sins to God, never repent of errors or trips, because you do not have to what?

what do you think about this passage of Scripture:

1Jo 1:7-10 esv "(7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. (8) If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

All have sinned. Without the blood of Christ I am cooked!

I have both sinned much and been forgiven much. But I also have been indwelt by Christ so as to walk in the light...an actual light that shows the presence of God WITHIN me. One cannot sin in the light. If ones decides to sin...in order to spite the light...then that light will depart together with the presence of God. I did that very thing when I was first indwelt by Christ. I wanted out of His presence...I was lonely for the things of this world...I felt trapped and imprisoned in a righteousness and holiness I felt I didn't ask for! But I was as immature as can be imagined. I regretted terribly the lost fellowship with God after I had chased Him out. I repented bitterly. I learned a very valuable lesson...He will come to us when we forsake this world and our own control over our lives. His presence is sweet and full of love and power. But you will find that you are alone in this world since no one else walks that way. Very few even believe it is possible to walk as we are commanded to.

So I have learned to not desire this world or care what others care for so much. Who has the love of God actually IN them?

BTW my first walk in the Spirit was in 1980.

Vashti · Jan 8, 2012

Thank you for the answer, but I asked if you do not confess your sins now. I did not ask for repentance at conversion, but the present life with Christ and given section of Scripture also speaks of the Christian life, not about the time of conversion.

I do not speak about deciding, to sin... Whoever loves God will fight with sin, but situations are various, and heavy, happened that I lacked wisdom, and I did not know how I do... And at times so the only later I realized I had made a mistake...

Personally, I often ask God for wisdom, for help, forgiveness, cleansing, etc., because I still needs it. And you?

Episkopos · Jan 8, 2012

Vashti said:
Thank you for the answer, but I asked if you do not confess your sins now. I did not ask for repentance at conversion, but the present life with Christ and given section of Scripture also speaks of the Christian life, not about the time of conversion.

I do not speak about deciding, to sin... Whoever loves God will fight with sin, but situations are various, and heavy, happened that I lacked wisdom, and I did not know how I do... And at times so the only later I realized I had made a mistake...

Personally, I often ask God for wisdom, for help, forgiveness, cleansing, etc., because I still needs it. And you?

I am still in need of forgiveness at times, yes! I have not yet attained to that place where I can always remain in His presence.

Jake · Jan 8, 2012

Episkopos said:
I am still in need of forgiveness at times, yes! I have not yet attained to that place where I can always remain in His presence.

I don't understand why you would say that you can not remain in His presence.

Doesn't His Spirit always dwell in us and is always present with believers? Maybe we are aware of Him more times than others, but it seems He is always there.
So what do you mean?
Thanks

Episkopos · Jan 8, 2012

Jake said:
I don't understand why you would say that you can not remain in His presence.

Doesn't His Spirit always dwell in us and is always present with believers? Maybe we are aware of Him more times than others, but it seems He is always there.
So what do you mean?
Thanks

Good point. I am not always able to live ONLY by faith at all times.

There are many factors that go into a walk in His strength. One of these is to be always in fellowship with the brethren. Jesus was constantly with His disciples. We experience Christ not just from within...but also from among us. So if there is a lack in regards to the fellowship of the brothers who are also walking in supernatural power, then the support is from your faith alone rather than an accumulation of faith from several.

We are a body after all. Jesus didn't say...where 1 of you is gathered in My name there I am in you. So we need to be in a very intimate fellowship with the brethren in order to maintain THAT walk at all times.

6 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
[sup]17[/sup] “Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord.
“AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.

prism · Jan 8, 2012

Thankful 1 said:
For almost thirty years I have been trying to explain to people, who believe they are Christians that a spiritual Christian will not sin. The only people who seem to understand are those Christians who are spiritual. Yet Jesus keeps telling me to continue sharing.

For people who are not spiritual everyone sins, and if someone says they don’t sin, then in their minds, those people are just deceived.

A non-spiritual person seems to be blind to the spiritual aspect of Christianity. Why do people stay non-spiritual? Is it because no one is living the whole Word of God? Jesus told us that if one obeys him he and the Father would make their home in them. Now if one has God making his home in them then they would be spiritual.

Perhaps what passes as 'spiritual' is not always what our preconceived ideas portray...

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
(Jas 1:27)

"G2357 (religion)
θρῆσκος
thrḗskos; gen. thrḗskou, masc.-fem., neut. thrḗskon, adj. Religious, devout; only in Jas_1:26, the diligent performer of divinely ascribed duties of outward service to God. The subst. thrēskeía (G2356) (Act_26:5; Col_2:18; Jas_1:26-27) is predominantly the ceremonial service of religion. It is the external framework while as eusébeia (G2150), godliness, is the inward piety of soul. According to James, true thrēskeía or religion is not merely ceremonial formality, but acts of mercy, love, and holiness." (From the Complete Word Study Dictionary)

and from Thayer...
G2357
θρῆσκος
thrēskos
Thayer Definition:
1) fearing or worshipping God
2) to tremble
2a) trembling, fearful

A truly 'spiritual' Christian dirties themselves helping clean human needs rather than a monks cloister.

aspen · Jan 8, 2012

Thankful 1 said:
For almost thirty years I have been trying to explain to people, who believe they are Christians that a spiritual Christian will not sin. The only people who seem to understand are those Christians who are spiritual. Yet Jesus keeps telling me to continue sharing.

For people who are not spiritual everyone sins, and if someone says they don’t sin, then in their minds, those people are just deceived.

A non-spiritual person seems to be blind to the spiritual aspect of Christianity. Why do people stay non-spiritual? Is it because no one is living the whole Word of God? Jesus told us that if one obeys him he and the Father would make their home in them. Now if one has God making his home in them then they would be spiritual.

(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

Interesting, I've been waiting for years to meet a perfect Christian - hasn't happened yet - I'll let you know. Don't hold your breath

Episkopos said:
What is not being understood here is the indwelling of Christ IN us at THIS time. The fleshly body is a tent we live in presently. It is weak to be sure...but sinful? Only the actions that are done are sinful. Otherwise Jesus would have been sinful by just having a physical DNA. The physical body is not sinful in itself. This teaching is gnosticism...a heresy that was soundly refuted by Paul, and especially John. Many people tried explaining away the true power of the gospel by saying that the spiritual reality was only in the future...that we just needed a saving "gnosis" (knowledge) and then our own actions no longer mattered. This took the message outside the realm of reality so that the world was not affected whatsoever by the Spirit.

We see the resurgence of this as faith wanes in the world. People can no longer accept the gospel as little children believing that the God of the whole universe cannot change a man into a son of God in reality. There is instead a strange disconnect with reality together with a belief that we sow in the flesh to reap of the Spirit. This concept is contrary to the word of God. We actually do reap what we sow.

If we sow to the flesh (while believing in a future victory over sin) we will die. If we sow to the Spirit and IN the Spirit (knowing that God can accomplish His will in us) then we will live. Nothing has changed in the message. The hearers just no longer believe in the present power of the gospel. We were warned of the end times.

We walk by faith not by sight. If we see things with our natural eyes we will sin. But if we are empowered by the Spirit then we see exactly as Jesus sees. Without Jesus we can do nothing. BUT...with Jesus we can do all things. Difficult as it may be to believe THAT is the truth.

Very good. You cannot explain to a blind person what you are seeing...he will not believe you because he judges the world from himself. But there is a penalty to limiting the bible and the words of Christ to oneself and what one sees. They have ears and cannot hear and eyes that only see the world apart from God.

Imagine a world where everybody is a "Christian" but the world stays at it always was...no change. No victory. That is the modern gospel.

Ok so, by admitting the obvious that I sin, I am blind?? What does that make you, Epikopos? You sin and refuse to admit it!

Episkopos said:
All have sinned. Without the blood of Christ I am cooked!

I have both sinned much and been forgiven much. But I also have been indwelt by Christ so as to walk in the light...an actual light that shows the presence of God WITHIN me. One cannot sin in the light. If ones decides to sin...in order to spite the light...then that light will depart together with the presence of God. I did that very thing when I was first indwelt by Christ. I wanted out of His presence...I was lonely for the things of this world...I felt trapped and imprisoned in a righteousness and holiness I felt I didn't ask for! But I was as immature as can be imagined. I regretted terribly the lost fellowship with God after I had chased Him out. I repented bitterly. I learned a very valuable lesson...He will come to us when we forsake this world and our own control over our lives. His presence is sweet and full of love and power. But you will find that you are alone in this world since no one else walks that way. Very few even believe it is possible to walk as we are commanded to.

So I have learned to not desire this world or care what others care for so much. Who has the love of God actually IN them?

BTW my first walk in the Spirit was in 1980.

So you have been sin free for 31 years?

Ok - so now I am seeing that you have not been sin free, but every time you do sin, God leaves. Wow....that is rough - our faithful God has to leave every time we sin? How are we supposed to have a relationship with anyone who has to leave whenever we act selfishly? That would make my wife, friends, and even acquaintances more faithful than God.

Episkopos · Jan 8, 2012

aspen said:
Interesting, I've been waiting for years to meet a perfect Christian - hasn't happened yet - I'll let you know. Don't hold your breath

Ok so, by admitting the obvious that I sin, I am blind?? What does that make you, Epikopos? You sin and refuse to admit it!

So you have been sin free for 31 years?

Ok - so now I am seeing that you have not been sin free, but every time you do sin, God leaves. Wow....that is rough - our faithful God has to leave every time we sin? How are we supposed to have a relationship with anyone who has to leave whenever we act selfishly? That would make my wife, friends, and even acquaintances more faithful than God.

If you wish for an excuse to not believe in the power of the gospel...there is plenty of human proof you can draw from!

This thread is not about me, but about what the bible is saying. To walk in unbelief of God's power is to be going the wrong way.

The fact that your experience does not line up with the word does not negate the word.

A subject such as this cannot be discussed among those who mock the truth.

prism said:
Perhaps what passes as 'spiritual' is not always what our preconceived ideas portray...

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
(Jas 1:27)

"G2357 (religion)
θρῆσκος
thrḗskos; gen. thrḗskou, masc.-fem., neut. thrḗskon, adj. Religious, devout; only in Jas_1:26, the diligent performer of divinely ascribed duties of outward service to God. The subst. thrēskeía (G2356) (Act_26:5; Col_2:18; Jas_1:26-27) is predominantly the ceremonial service of religion. It is the external framework while as eusébeia (G2150), godliness, is the inward piety of soul. According to James, true thrēskeía or religion is not merely ceremonial formality, but acts of mercy, love, and holiness." (From the Complete Word Study Dictionary)

and from Thayer...
G2357
θρῆσκος
thrēskos
Thayer Definition:
1) fearing or worshipping God
2) to tremble
2a) trembling, fearful

A truly 'spiritual' Christian dirties themselves helping clean human needs rather than a monks cloister.

....and keeps themselves unspotted from the world...as you quoted.

aspen · Jan 8, 2012

Episkopos said:
If you wish for an excuse to not believe in the power of the gospel...there is plenty of human proof you can draw from!

This thread is not about me, but about what the bible is saying. To walk in unbelief of God's power is to be going the wrong way.

A subject such as this cannot be discussed among those who mock the truth.

If you believe I am mocking you, I think you have:

1. Never seen a post that is really full of mocking language..
2. Mistaken my disagreement with your interpretation of scripture with mocking.

I believe in the power of God to teach us to love perfectly and therefore no longer sin.....it takes a lifetime and is not possible before Heaven. It will happen, but I have never met a Christian who is perfectly selfless. Never. So, until I meet one, I will have to trust my experience and a less radical interpretation of the Bible, which the majority of Christians adhere to.

Jake · Jan 9, 2012

Episkopos said:
Good point. I am not always able to live ONLY by faith at all times.

There are many factors that go into a walk in His strength. One of these is to be always in fellowship with the brethren. Jesus was constantly with His disciples. We experience Christ not just from within...but also from among us. So if there is a lack in regards to the fellowship of the brothers who are also walking in supernatural power, then the support is from your faith alone rather than an accumulation of faith from several.

We are a body after all. Jesus didn't say...where 1 of you is gathered in My name there I am in you. So we need to be in a very intimate fellowship with the brethren in order to maintain THAT walk at all times.

6 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
[sup]17[/sup] “Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord.
“AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.

Ok, I see what you meant now and agree! We are all called into the shared life, yet it seems to have been forgotten. It's not supposed to be a solo journey.

NicholasMarks · Jan 9, 2012

Though fellowship is very nice and a clear desire by Jesus that we should grow together...it certainly isn't a commandment not to go it alone. All of the spiritual correction, to make us acceptable to righteousness, must be done individually. After all...it is your, individuual spirit that is being nurtured, developed and which harmonises with Jesus Christ's accurate teaching. When two or more of like, spirited people come together they reinforce that position and Jesus is the bringer together of profound and wonderful things, between them...and so he says..."there I will be also". Also...one thing to be guarded against is that another Christian might have designed there own brand of Christianity which appears to blend with Jesus's accurate teaching but is wide of the mark. Only our own, individual, study of his accurate word will hold you on course and will grow, as rghteousness grows within you.

prophetic · Jan 9, 2012

Angelina said:
Repentance...

yes, i agreed with this....

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jan 9, 2012

Episkopos said:
The fleshly body is a tent we live in presently. It is weak to be sure...but sinful? Only the actions that are done are sinful. Otherwise Jesus would have been sinful by just having a physical DNA. The physical body is not sinful in itself. This teaching is gnosticism.

This is where you err. Our bodies are imbued with sin; our very makeup is sinful. That is why flesh can never inherit the kingdom of God - it must die, or be transformed at the resurrection. Christ did not have sin because he did not have an earthly father. The sins of the father are visited upon his children to the third and fourth generation; they are not passed through the woman. It is a legal, judicial issue, not a DNA issue The error of gnosticism is that only spirit is good, and the material world is to be rejected because it is evil. Embracing that worldview cannot sanctify. The doorway into the kingdom of God for each individual is through the acknowledgment of his/her sin. In other words, we cannot enter the kingdom apart from the spirit of truth; and the truth is the confession of our sin every moment of every day.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 9:39-41

It is the admitting that we have sin that makes us have no sin; the spirit of truth sanctifies. The doorway is narrow; we enter through our sins (so to speak). That is why the slaying of the sacrifice was at the entrance of the temple.

Episkopos · Jan 10, 2012

Jake said:
Ok, I see what you meant now and agree! We are all called into the shared life, yet it seems to have been forgotten. It's not supposed to be a solo journey.

Right you are!!!!!

NicholasMarks said:
Though fellowship is very nice and a clear desire by Jesus that we should grow together...it certainly isn't a commandment not to go it alone. All of the spiritual correction, to make us acceptable to righteousness, must be done individually. After all...it is your, individuual spirit that is being nurtured, developed and which harmonises with Jesus Christ's accurate teaching. When two or more of like, spirited people come together they reinforce that position and Jesus is the bringer together of profound and wonderful things, between them...and so he says..."there I will be also". Also...one thing to be guarded against is that another Christian might have designed there own brand of Christianity which appears to blend with Jesus's accurate teaching but is wide of the mark. Only our own, individual, study of his accurate word will hold you on course and will grow, as rghteousness grows within you.

The one commandment that Jesus gave us was to love one another as JESUS does. Try doing that on your own.

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
This is where you err. Our bodies are imbued with sin; our very makeup is sinful. That is why flesh can never inherit the kingdom of God - it must die, or be transformed at the resurrection. Christ did not have sin because he did not have an earthly father. The sins of the father are visited upon his children to the third and fourth generation; they are not passed through the woman. It is a legal, judicial issue, not a DNA issue The error of gnosticism is that only spirit is good, and the material world is to be rejected because it is evil. Embracing that worldview cannot sanctify. The doorway into the kingdom of God for each individual is through the acknowledgment of his/her sin. In other words, we cannot enter the kingdom apart from the spirit of truth; and the truth is the confession of our sin every moment of every day.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 9:39-41

It is the admitting that we have sin that makes us have no sin; the spirit of truth sanctifies. The doorway is narrow; we enter through our sins (so to speak). That is why the slaying of the sacrifice was at the entrance of the temple.

You are quoting out of context. Those who quote John to condone sin are falling into the trap he laid out...John is the champion of the sinless walk in Christ. ALL have sinned in the past.....but through Christ we cannot sin because HIS seed is in us. We have died in Christ FIRST in order to be made alive in Christ. So the power of the flesh is dealt with at the cross. Adam is NO LONGER the father of the dead in Christ. Jesus Christ has made HIs Father become our Father. One must actually experience this transformation of a new birth...not just accept some doctrinal stance that has no effect on the flesh.

So a conclusion cannot be come to from one's own mind. The futility of the mind is on the wrong side of the cross. After the cross we enjoin the mind of Christ. In Him we have NEW life...not the Adamic kind...but the Christ kind.

Can a man fly? In his own strength he cannot. Yet men fly everywhere these days. How? By abiding in a plane!!!

Can men live in space? OF course not...there is no air there. Yet there is the MIR spacestation! How? By abiding in a space craft.

Can men stop sinning? Of course not...we have Adam for a father. Yet we have saints. How? By abiding in Christ and HIS sinlessness.

Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?

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