I agree with your father. If people don't receive Jesus while the Holy Spirit is giving them opportunities now, then conditions will exist after the Rapture such that those same people will be even more unwilling to come to Christ. the bible prophetically reports that every ill that befalls the world in those times will not bring any repentance whatsoever.
What Should A Person Do If They Miss The Rapture ?
- Thread starter Hollyrock
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I agree with your father. If people don't receive Jesus while the Holy Spirit is giving them opportunities now, then conditions will exist after the Rapture such that those same people will be even more unwilling to come to Christ. the bible prophetically reports that every ill that befalls the world in those times will not bring any repentance whatsoever.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Lively Stone.
Hmmm.... Yes, until one realizes that the "Rapture" (or "snatching away" from the Greek word "harpazo") is actually the gathering of the saints AT the Second Coming of Yeshua`.
Tell me, what are the events that supposedly occur in "Heaven" after the "Church" is "raptured?" WHY are they "raptured?" What purpose does it serve for the "Christians" to be taken to "Heaven" for seven years? What's so very important that it has to happen in "Heaven?"
Would you agree, for instance, that it is the "Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ" and the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb?"
Hmmm.... Yes, until one realizes that the "Rapture" (or "snatching away" from the Greek word "harpazo") is actually the gathering of the saints AT the Second Coming of Yeshua`.
Tell me, what are the events that supposedly occur in "Heaven" after the "Church" is "raptured?" WHY are they "raptured?" What purpose does it serve for the "Christians" to be taken to "Heaven" for seven years? What's so very important that it has to happen in "Heaven?"
Would you agree, for instance, that it is the "Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ" and the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb?"
What happens after the Church is caught away is the Wedding of the Lamb. There will also be the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ where we receive our rewards and are made ready to join with Christ in His return to set up His Kingdom and rule with Him in our newly given capacities as true kings and priests.
If you attend a bible based church, or I should say one that teaches the full counsel of God, you've probably heard the phrase "Judgment begins in the house of God." This phrase is derived from phrophetic writing in the book of Ezekial. Ezekial is a tough book to understand and I don't pretend to get it all, but chapters 8 and 9 are worth reading when trying to understand God's judgment against the apostate. The primary defense of the pretribulation rapture doctrine is the verse which declares that the church "is not appointed to wrath." However, it isn't exegetically sound to base an entire doctrine upon a single verse. Isaiah speaks to the redeemed of the Lord in chapter 54 and while it could be argued that this passage is for Israel, it does refer to the wife of the Lord of hosts, (and I believe that most evangelicals would identify the Lord of hosts with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.) Verse 8 from chapter 54 reads "In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy redeemer" (I'm not sure which translation my little IPOD app uses, but any popular translation should be close to this rendering.)
Jesus said that those who have believed Him have passed out of judgment and into eternal life, but what we need to remember is that this actually refers to eternal judgment. There is always a judgment upon the flesh. One hundred percent of all people die. Those who know Christ will live again and with Him forever in glory. I guarantee that those who live to see the day of his return and are caught up will have experienced some degree of judgment against their own flesh and this would be in accordance with the degree of their sin. If you lived like hell all your life as a believer in Christ (I'd have to ask why and how can you say that you believe?) you can expect the Lord to discipline you and that it won't be pleasant. The scripture says that if you aren't disciplined by the Lord then you aren't a legitimate child of His. If you've lived a perfect and sinless life, then you must be Jesus Himself (and we know that this isn't the case.) Faith in Christ can redeem us from the most grevious of sins, but this doesn't mean that sin has no consequence to us in this life. I am grateful that the Lord in His mercy, often delivers us from the immediate consequences of our sin, but anything we may suffer in this life is nothing compared to the suffering of those who will remain seperated from the Lord for all eternity. And on the other side of judgment, the good things which we may experience in this life will pale in comparison to our inheritance in eternity, the Lord Himself. Amen
I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about missing the rapture. My real concern (and this should be yours as well) is am I loving the Lord and trying to live justly in obedience to the prompting of His Spirit? Am I walking in the good works that He has provided for me from the foundation of the earth? And most significantly, am I resting in His righteousness provided through the precious blood shed on my behalf and not seeking to build a righteousness of my own?
A friend and brother in the Lord shared some things with me about his own struggles over the last year or two and the deliverance that he received is in the knowledge of His acceptance. If we have believed and received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then we are accepted in Him. We don't have to work to be accepted, He has worked that we would be accepted and nothing in heaven or hell can change that. When we can comprehend His love for us, who have nothing in us to deserve it, then it makes it much easier for us to love others. Our love is the overflow of His love and of His love there is no limit. It's difficult to love hateful and sinful people, I'd say even impossible for us, yet He loved us. The works that we do in Him are His works done through us. No one may glory, no one may boast except in that we know Him and are loved by Him. This is our glory. This is our inheritance, to share in His Spirit and live with the devine, our Immanuel, Jesus Christ. Amen.
Jesus said that those who have believed Him have passed out of judgment and into eternal life, but what we need to remember is that this actually refers to eternal judgment. There is always a judgment upon the flesh. One hundred percent of all people die. Those who know Christ will live again and with Him forever in glory. I guarantee that those who live to see the day of his return and are caught up will have experienced some degree of judgment against their own flesh and this would be in accordance with the degree of their sin. If you lived like hell all your life as a believer in Christ (I'd have to ask why and how can you say that you believe?) you can expect the Lord to discipline you and that it won't be pleasant. The scripture says that if you aren't disciplined by the Lord then you aren't a legitimate child of His. If you've lived a perfect and sinless life, then you must be Jesus Himself (and we know that this isn't the case.) Faith in Christ can redeem us from the most grevious of sins, but this doesn't mean that sin has no consequence to us in this life. I am grateful that the Lord in His mercy, often delivers us from the immediate consequences of our sin, but anything we may suffer in this life is nothing compared to the suffering of those who will remain seperated from the Lord for all eternity. And on the other side of judgment, the good things which we may experience in this life will pale in comparison to our inheritance in eternity, the Lord Himself. Amen
I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about missing the rapture. My real concern (and this should be yours as well) is am I loving the Lord and trying to live justly in obedience to the prompting of His Spirit? Am I walking in the good works that He has provided for me from the foundation of the earth? And most significantly, am I resting in His righteousness provided through the precious blood shed on my behalf and not seeking to build a righteousness of my own?
A friend and brother in the Lord shared some things with me about his own struggles over the last year or two and the deliverance that he received is in the knowledge of His acceptance. If we have believed and received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then we are accepted in Him. We don't have to work to be accepted, He has worked that we would be accepted and nothing in heaven or hell can change that. When we can comprehend His love for us, who have nothing in us to deserve it, then it makes it much easier for us to love others. Our love is the overflow of His love and of His love there is no limit. It's difficult to love hateful and sinful people, I'd say even impossible for us, yet He loved us. The works that we do in Him are His works done through us. No one may glory, no one may boast except in that we know Him and are loved by Him. This is our glory. This is our inheritance, to share in His Spirit and live with the devine, our Immanuel, Jesus Christ. Amen.
If all living are judged at the same time, it would be a real distraction to hold the court of heaven on earth in the midst of nuclear detonations and concomitant events that will be used to judge the wicked. This will occur over a period measured in days, not years.
I very much believe in the Greek 'harpazo' idea of us being gathered to Christ Jesus when He returns on the day of the Lord, as written (Matt.24:29-31 and 1 Thess.4:15-17; 1 Thess.5:1-2; 2 Pet.3:10).
But I choose not to use the Latin derived word 'rapture' for that event, simply because the Pre-trib Rapture school has tried to hi-jack the meaning and timing of that harpazo event away from its Scripture context.
Doesn't bother me at all that I'm not going to be raptured per what the Pre-trib school believes. Actually, I would be in great fear if I was, simply because I know the one they are going to flee to will not be our Lord Jesus Christ, but to an imposter, the instead-of-Christ, a pseudo-Christ that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned His Church about...
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)
II Th 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)
Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(KJV)
What's going to be sad, is to see those expecting to fly away and be taken by Christ prior to that tribulation instead being caught in the trap of that coming pseudo-Christ that comes first before our Lord Jesus' return to gather us.
But since those who heed the Pre-trib doctrines listen to men instead of heeding God's simple Word as written, they deserve what's getting ready to come upon them (i.e., the "strong delusion" Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2).
But I choose not to use the Latin derived word 'rapture' for that event, simply because the Pre-trib Rapture school has tried to hi-jack the meaning and timing of that harpazo event away from its Scripture context.
Doesn't bother me at all that I'm not going to be raptured per what the Pre-trib school believes. Actually, I would be in great fear if I was, simply because I know the one they are going to flee to will not be our Lord Jesus Christ, but to an imposter, the instead-of-Christ, a pseudo-Christ that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned His Church about...
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)
II Th 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)
Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(KJV)
What's going to be sad, is to see those expecting to fly away and be taken by Christ prior to that tribulation instead being caught in the trap of that coming pseudo-Christ that comes first before our Lord Jesus' return to gather us.
But since those who heed the Pre-trib doctrines listen to men instead of heeding God's simple Word as written, they deserve what's getting ready to come upon them (i.e., the "strong delusion" Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2).
I disagree with that timing, for I believe that the Church will be with Jesus at His second coming.
We will experience the Wedding between us, the Church and Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom. The main reason why we are taken to heaven for this event is because God has still seven years left on the clock for His dealing with the Jew. With the Church removed, the age of the Gentile completed, He will revert back to the pre-Messiah, pre-cross time and focus on Israel once again. They will hear the message of the Messiah from the two witnesses and out of them will come 144,000 who will stand. The remaining world will also hear again of the Messiah who once came and will come again soon to reap the earth, but they will continue to reject Him and will continue to curse God and suffer great ills and death in the Tribulation.
The other reason why the Church is removed is to avoid the Tribulation that is coming upon the whole world. We are not of the world.
Yes.
But that's only what men say, and not what God's Word says.
Those ideas originate in 1830's Britain Edward Irving and John Darby. Before that, for almost 1800 years, the Church held to the gathering being when Christ returns after the tribulation.
Your take on it is that particular people have taught these things, but it is what God's word reveals to me. I think you have been influenced by men away from what the word teaches about this.
That is not the truth. The very apostles themselves believed in the catching away of the saints. Especially John, who wrote Revelation---Jesus' message to Him was clear that the world will suffer and reject repentance after each bout of trouble and chaos. We are not part of the world. Nowhere is the Church mentioned in all of John's relating of the trials of Tribulation.
No, the early Church knew they would escape the Tribulation to come. Jesus Himself taught that the Church would see Tribulation BEGIN, along with all the other signs that reveal the Lord's coming is soon, and enjoins us to look up, for our redemption is near! For the Church of Jesus Christ, that redemption is Christ Himself, who comes as the Bridegroom for His Bride...snatching her away to His home for the Wedding, to return triumphantly at a later time as a consummated couple to their Kingdom to set up house.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Lively Stone.
And so do I. However, I believe that there are STAGES to the Second Coming!
1. Yeshua` and His messengers arrive within the atmosphere of the earth.
2. Yeshua` sends out His messengers to gather all of His saints from around the globe.
3. The Resurrection (Greek: Anastasis) happens first - wherever saints are dead and buried, for those who were dead in the Messiah, whatever (if anything) is left of their mortal bodies is raised to life with God's Creative power to make new immortal bodies.
4. The Transformation (Greek: Enduoo Athanasia) happens second - the mortal bodies of those who were alive in the Messiah are changed into immortal bodies.
5. The Rapture (Greek: Harpazoo) happens third - we all are transported into the air (Greek: ouranos, often translated as "heaven").
6. We are then transported (right turn, Clyde!) not up to "Heaven," but THROUGH the "heaven," the "air," parallel to the earth's surface, to ISRA'EL!
7. We then meet up with the Master Yeshua` haMashiach (the Lord Jesus the Christ) in the air above haErets Yisra'el (the Land of Isra'el).
8. We then descend with Him to rescue national Isra'el, as the prophecies predict.
Thus, when He arrives in Isra'el in step 8, He comes with His "church!"
All of this TAKES TIME! It's not a "zoom-boom-done" kind of thing! True, the TRANSFORMATION is done in the "twinkling of an eye," but we're not told that's true about ANY of the rest of it! The "instantaneous" stuff that is taught in some churches is just WAY out of line! They've strayed from the Scriptures and there's no proof for any of the teaching that is imagined once past the Scriptures!
I believe that it takes the time from the Seventh Shofar (Trumpet), through the seven Bowl Judgments (which happen in rapid fire succession) and until He descends in Isra’el as portrayed in Rev. 19.
Have you ever investigated a Jewish wedding? As can be seen in the importance that Miryam (Mary, Jesus’ mother) put on the wine served at the wedding at Cana in the Galiyl (Galilee), wine was very important at Jewish weddings (and it still is). (This is found in John 2:1-11.)
Next, one must understand when the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of heaven begins. Yeshua` (Jesus) said,
Matthew 25:31-32
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
KJV
Luke 19:12-15
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
KJV
Furthermore, the messenger Gavri’el (Gabriel) said,
Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV
The Messiah’s Kingdom begins when He is sitting on the throne of His ancestor Daviyd the King AFTER HE HAS RETURNED in what is called the MILLENNIUM.
Now, consider what Yeshua` said to His disciples at His final Passover Seder (the Last Supper):
Matthew 26:27-29
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
KJV
Mark 14:23-25
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
KJV
Luke 22:17-18
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
KJV
One should come to the conclusion, then, that Yeshua` won’t be drinking of the fruit of the vine (the wine), until HE COMES BACK and is REIGNING IN JERUSALEM! That’s AFTER His Second Coming and AFTER THE MILLENNIUM HAS BEGUN!
One may then conclude that Yeshua`s wedding and the marriage supper associated with it won’t happen until He has returned, happening at the beginning of the Millennium, not in some seven-year period before!
That’s really a minor argument. We don’t truly need to “avoid” the Tribulation for a couple of reasons.
First, God can take care of us THROUGH the pressure as easily as taking us OFF-WORLD! Just as He protected the children of Isra’el while they were slaves in Egypt THROUGH the plagues, He can protect believers in the “tribulation” (Greek: thlipsis = “pressure”) without removing them from the earth in a Rapture.
Second, we should not fear to follow in the Messiah’s footsteps. If they persecuted our Master, shouldn’t they likewise persecute us His slaves? We can be PROUD if he calls us to suffer for Him!
Third, IMO, we’re already IN the “thlipsis” of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. It’s a pressure primarily on the Jews for rejecting the Messiah. It started in the first century A.D. and will continue until the Messiah returns!
Then, I had asked, “Would you agree, for instance, that it is the "Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ" and the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb?" to which you simply responded,
So, having already talked about the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, let’s direct our attention to the “Judgment Seat (Beema) of Christ.”
As I’ve already tried to convey, the title “Christ” is the same thing as the title “Messiah.” “Messiah” is one English transliteration for the title spelled “mem, shin, yod, chet.” Another is one that sounds closer to how the word is actually pronounced, “Mashiach,” such that the “ch” (the “chet”) is like the “ch” in the Scottish word “loch,” as in “Loch Ness.”
The Hebrew word was translated into Greek using the word “Christos,” pronounced “CHREES-tos,” such that the “ch” again is like the “ch” in “loch” but transliterates the “chi” letter in Greek. This Greek word was shortened to “Christ.” Thus, the two words mean EXACTLY THE SAME THING! So, substitute the word “Messiah” for “Christ” in the term:
It’s the “Judgment Seat (Beema) of the Messiah!” Now, what do the words “Messiah” and “Christ” mean? Simply put, they mean “Anointed (One),” and “to anoint” means “to rub or paint someone (as with the Holy Anointing Oil of Exodus 30:22-33).”
Now, a person was so anointed for one of three (and four) occupations: priest, prophet, or king (and since the role of an Isra’elite king was to act as a supreme court for the kingdom, he would also be a judge).
Generally, Yeshua` was anointed for all three, but specifically when it comes to prophecies, He was anointed to be the Melekh or King of Isra’el.
So, follow the logic closely: Since Yeshua` was anointed to be King and He takes His Kingdom at the beginning of the Millennium, then Yeshua` also becomes JUDGE at the beginning of the Millennium, and that means that His task as Judge will be THROUGHOUT THE MILLENNIUM, and indeed it starts with a general Judgment (the separation of the sheep and the goats) and it ends with a general Judgment (the Great White Throne)!
Furthermore, the character of the Kingdom is one of judgment throughout as He subdues His enemies (Psalm 2:1-12; 1 Cor. 15:22-28)!
Consider this, too: Didn’t Paul say this?
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat (Greek: beematos or “Beema”) of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
KJV
That does not mean “so that each one receives [recompense] for the things” he HAD “done in his body” while alive, “whether good or bad”; it means “so that each one receives through his body [recompense] for the things He had done, whether good or bad” (Greek: “hina komiseetai hekastos ta dia tou soomatos pros ha epraxen, eite agathos eite faulon”)!
Therefore, how could this occur BEFORE the Resurrection? Unless of course, a pretribulational rapturist teaches that there is more than one Resurrection of the Just associated with the Second Coming! And, many do.
No, it makes better sense that the judgment of each one of us will happen before the throne of Daviyd when Yeshua` sits in judgment within His Kingdom.
So, if the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is within His Kingdom in the Millennium and if the Judgment Seat of the Messiah is within His Kingdom in the Millennium, what would we be doing for seven years?
Therefore, I conclude that the Rapture is NOT seven years prior to the Second Coming.
And so do I. However, I believe that there are STAGES to the Second Coming!
1. Yeshua` and His messengers arrive within the atmosphere of the earth.
2. Yeshua` sends out His messengers to gather all of His saints from around the globe.
3. The Resurrection (Greek: Anastasis) happens first - wherever saints are dead and buried, for those who were dead in the Messiah, whatever (if anything) is left of their mortal bodies is raised to life with God's Creative power to make new immortal bodies.
4. The Transformation (Greek: Enduoo Athanasia) happens second - the mortal bodies of those who were alive in the Messiah are changed into immortal bodies.
5. The Rapture (Greek: Harpazoo) happens third - we all are transported into the air (Greek: ouranos, often translated as "heaven").
6. We are then transported (right turn, Clyde!) not up to "Heaven," but THROUGH the "heaven," the "air," parallel to the earth's surface, to ISRA'EL!
7. We then meet up with the Master Yeshua` haMashiach (the Lord Jesus the Christ) in the air above haErets Yisra'el (the Land of Isra'el).
8. We then descend with Him to rescue national Isra'el, as the prophecies predict.
Thus, when He arrives in Isra'el in step 8, He comes with His "church!"
All of this TAKES TIME! It's not a "zoom-boom-done" kind of thing! True, the TRANSFORMATION is done in the "twinkling of an eye," but we're not told that's true about ANY of the rest of it! The "instantaneous" stuff that is taught in some churches is just WAY out of line! They've strayed from the Scriptures and there's no proof for any of the teaching that is imagined once past the Scriptures!
I believe that it takes the time from the Seventh Shofar (Trumpet), through the seven Bowl Judgments (which happen in rapid fire succession) and until He descends in Isra’el as portrayed in Rev. 19.
Have you ever investigated a Jewish wedding? As can be seen in the importance that Miryam (Mary, Jesus’ mother) put on the wine served at the wedding at Cana in the Galiyl (Galilee), wine was very important at Jewish weddings (and it still is). (This is found in John 2:1-11.)
Next, one must understand when the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of heaven begins. Yeshua` (Jesus) said,
Matthew 25:31-32
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
KJV
Luke 19:12-15
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
KJV
Furthermore, the messenger Gavri’el (Gabriel) said,
Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV
The Messiah’s Kingdom begins when He is sitting on the throne of His ancestor Daviyd the King AFTER HE HAS RETURNED in what is called the MILLENNIUM.
Now, consider what Yeshua` said to His disciples at His final Passover Seder (the Last Supper):
Matthew 26:27-29
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
KJV
Mark 14:23-25
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
KJV
Luke 22:17-18
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
KJV
One should come to the conclusion, then, that Yeshua` won’t be drinking of the fruit of the vine (the wine), until HE COMES BACK and is REIGNING IN JERUSALEM! That’s AFTER His Second Coming and AFTER THE MILLENNIUM HAS BEGUN!
One may then conclude that Yeshua`s wedding and the marriage supper associated with it won’t happen until He has returned, happening at the beginning of the Millennium, not in some seven-year period before!
That’s really a minor argument. We don’t truly need to “avoid” the Tribulation for a couple of reasons.
First, God can take care of us THROUGH the pressure as easily as taking us OFF-WORLD! Just as He protected the children of Isra’el while they were slaves in Egypt THROUGH the plagues, He can protect believers in the “tribulation” (Greek: thlipsis = “pressure”) without removing them from the earth in a Rapture.
Second, we should not fear to follow in the Messiah’s footsteps. If they persecuted our Master, shouldn’t they likewise persecute us His slaves? We can be PROUD if he calls us to suffer for Him!
Third, IMO, we’re already IN the “thlipsis” of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. It’s a pressure primarily on the Jews for rejecting the Messiah. It started in the first century A.D. and will continue until the Messiah returns!
Then, I had asked, “Would you agree, for instance, that it is the "Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ" and the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb?" to which you simply responded,
So, having already talked about the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, let’s direct our attention to the “Judgment Seat (Beema) of Christ.”
As I’ve already tried to convey, the title “Christ” is the same thing as the title “Messiah.” “Messiah” is one English transliteration for the title spelled “mem, shin, yod, chet.” Another is one that sounds closer to how the word is actually pronounced, “Mashiach,” such that the “ch” (the “chet”) is like the “ch” in the Scottish word “loch,” as in “Loch Ness.”
The Hebrew word was translated into Greek using the word “Christos,” pronounced “CHREES-tos,” such that the “ch” again is like the “ch” in “loch” but transliterates the “chi” letter in Greek. This Greek word was shortened to “Christ.” Thus, the two words mean EXACTLY THE SAME THING! So, substitute the word “Messiah” for “Christ” in the term:
It’s the “Judgment Seat (Beema) of the Messiah!” Now, what do the words “Messiah” and “Christ” mean? Simply put, they mean “Anointed (One),” and “to anoint” means “to rub or paint someone (as with the Holy Anointing Oil of Exodus 30:22-33).”
Now, a person was so anointed for one of three (and four) occupations: priest, prophet, or king (and since the role of an Isra’elite king was to act as a supreme court for the kingdom, he would also be a judge).
Generally, Yeshua` was anointed for all three, but specifically when it comes to prophecies, He was anointed to be the Melekh or King of Isra’el.
So, follow the logic closely: Since Yeshua` was anointed to be King and He takes His Kingdom at the beginning of the Millennium, then Yeshua` also becomes JUDGE at the beginning of the Millennium, and that means that His task as Judge will be THROUGHOUT THE MILLENNIUM, and indeed it starts with a general Judgment (the separation of the sheep and the goats) and it ends with a general Judgment (the Great White Throne)!
Furthermore, the character of the Kingdom is one of judgment throughout as He subdues His enemies (Psalm 2:1-12; 1 Cor. 15:22-28)!
Consider this, too: Didn’t Paul say this?
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat (Greek: beematos or “Beema”) of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
KJV
That does not mean “so that each one receives [recompense] for the things” he HAD “done in his body” while alive, “whether good or bad”; it means “so that each one receives through his body [recompense] for the things He had done, whether good or bad” (Greek: “hina komiseetai hekastos ta dia tou soomatos pros ha epraxen, eite agathos eite faulon”)!
Therefore, how could this occur BEFORE the Resurrection? Unless of course, a pretribulational rapturist teaches that there is more than one Resurrection of the Just associated with the Second Coming! And, many do.
No, it makes better sense that the judgment of each one of us will happen before the throne of Daviyd when Yeshua` sits in judgment within His Kingdom.
So, if the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is within His Kingdom in the Millennium and if the Judgment Seat of the Messiah is within His Kingdom in the Millennium, what would we be doing for seven years?
Therefore, I conclude that the Rapture is NOT seven years prior to the Second Coming.
It's not what God's Word has revealed to you. It's what men's doctrine has revealed to you. You're listening to men's doctrines on that Pre-trib matter, not God's Word. And you will continue to be blinded about it until you quit listening to men's doctrines on it.
Did the Apostles believe Christ would come to rapture His Church to Heaven prior to the tribulation Jesus taught of? Nope? Try and prove it with Scripture, and I'll show you how you cannot.
Our Lord Jesus revealed that those of His Church still alive on earth are still there on the 6th Vial, just before the 7th Vial is poured out into the air...
Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)
Paul and Peter both stated Christ would come "as a thief" on "the day of the Lord" per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10. Jesus said it too. How is it you've missed that? Does that show you've listened to God in His Word with that, or instead to men's doctrines? Or maybe you want to think that our Lord Jesus comes TWO TIMES "as a thief in the night"?? Yet Paul and Peter only mention one time for that "as a thief" event about Christ's coming. Did you also miss that Paul said Christ comes "as a thief" to Gentiles at Thessalonica?
Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)
Jesus said that to the Church at Sardis. So there's no doubt He was speaking to His Church still on earth at the 6th Vial timing.
Your vision of early Church history doesn't jive with what the early Church fathers wrote, for they wrote quite a bit about expecting to go through tribulation by an antichrist before Jesus' coming. The rest of your statements are using chopped up phrases from God's Word taken out of the context where they are written, the very thing those in the Edward Irving church were doing back in the 1830's, showing that another spirit had taken hold of them. You are in danger.
justaname
Disciple of Jesus Christ
- Mar 14, 2011
- 2,348
- 149
- 63
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Isaiah 54 7-8
For a brief moment I forsook you,
But with great compassion I will gather you.
8 “In an outburst of anger
I hid My face from you for a moment,
But with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you,”
Says the Lord your Redeemer.
Yeah no mention of wrath here. This is taken from the NASB. In fact it mentions a gathering, or maybe rapture?
I know the word. It is what God's word has taught me. There is no blindness in that, or in me.
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now because you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains. John 9:41
Then why not get into God's Word more for 'yourself', and check out the Pre-trib School, for they have to leave out a whole lot of Scripture to try and make their doctrine seem plausible. I'm not playing games on this matter. But all I have to do to debunk their doctrine of men is to affirm what our Lord Jesus said in the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture about His coming and our gathering AFTER... the tribulation in those days.
I have no quarrel with you about the Return of Christ after the Tribulation. The rapture of the saints is not His return, for His people will return with Him, having been caught away at least seven years prior.
What has that to do with anything? Are you saying that if someone believes in the Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation fully sets in that person is a sinner and not saved?
This is what makes a debate ugly. Fingers pointing and accusations of people being unsaved, and especially coming from those who differ with the pre-Trib position. Maybe another hobby will help??
I have walked with the Lord Jesus Christ for 50 years. He has blessed me with great sight and insight.
[
-- That reminds me of a conversation I had with a person I was sharing with.
They said, "I don't believe in God so I don't have to worry about hell."
I don't believe in the Rapture Theology...so I ain't gonna miss a thing...
Shalom!!!
-- That reminds me of a conversation I had with a person I was sharing with.
They said, "I don't believe in God so I don't have to worry about hell."
Hmmm...it would be similar if my salvation were at stake Foreigner...but it ain't. ^_^
Bless ya!!!
Similar threads
