What Should A Person Do If They Miss The Rapture ?

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michaelvpardo

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Justaname,
For a brief moment I forsook you,
But with great compassion I will gather you.
8 “In an outburst of anger
I hid My face from you for a moment,
But with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you,”
Says the Lord your Redeemer.
Yeah no mention of wrath here. This is taken from the NASB. In fact it mentions a gathering, or maybe rapture?

Thanks for bringing this translation to my attention, because it helps to prove a point. I have a printed copy of this particular translation which was used at a local church that I attended together with my wife. My understanding was that the NASB is a very accurate translation, but like all translations there appears to be a bent toward a favored doctrine, in this case the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture. According to Strong's concordance the Hebrew word "qetseph" (Strong's # 7110) means a "splinter (as chipped off): figuratively used to mean "rage or strife: - foam, indignation, x sore, wrath." The translators chose to soften the translation to "outburst of anger" (coincidentally the human definition of wrath) to remove the appearance that God would demonstrate wrath against His own people, yet this clearly denies what the scripture plainly says with respect to Israel in it's apostasy. In this translation the translators have chosen to give the Almighty judge of all creation the characteristics of human wrathfulness, as in the idea that God demonstrates outbursts of anger, as opposed to righteous judgment. In this case, it would appear that the NASB is a terribly poor translation, rather than a good one, but this is to be expected when you start from a false doctrinal premise, e.g. that God is like us and acts the way that humans do. "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." God does not resemble His creation, but rather we are intended to reflect His nature. Jesus, as the perfect human displaying the attributes of God, demonstrated what might be called an outburst of anger when He turned over the tables of the money changers in the temple, when cleansing the "Father's house" of leaven in preparation for the passover, but this wasn't really an outburst so much as a demonstration of "zeal" for His "Father's house". God does not have outbursts of anger, but does display godly wrath. The outpouring of the wrath of God is an act of justice on His part, not an emotional outburst.
I think that people get confused because they understand correctly that Jesus suffered the wrath of God in our place, as the propitiation of our sin, but the physical suffering of Christ on the cross was not the wrath that we are spared from. Many people, including Christians have had to suffer physical tortures as bad as or worse than those suffered by Christ. Many other men were crucified, flayed, beaten and abused, many tortured to the point of begging for death (and sometimes at the hands of religious men) prior to being hung, beheaded, burnt at the stake, etc. No, there was an element to Jesus' sufferings that were eternal and beyond our comprehension, which paid a price for our eternal redemption, but physical suffering in this life is by no means the extent of God's wrath against sin or there would be no hell. The enormity of the physical sufferings of Christ in our perception is that He was more than a man, but the holy One, and beloved Son of God, completely innocent of wrong doing, while every other man typically is guilty of something, and under the standard of God's law worthy of the punishment of death.
There is no question that God will gather His people together in the restoration of the kingdom of Israel, and the gathering of His church is associated with the restoration of Israel. The scripture says that Israel is to inherit the gentile nations. Who do you think that inheritance refers to? If the antichrist and all who have received his mark and consumed at the return of Christ, what gentile nations does Israel Inherit? Clearly the church doesn't inherit Israel, and who else is left? Don't think that inheritance in the text is any kind of a bad thing. The inheritance of the Lord is all creation and the inheritance of the priesthood is their God.
Consider Noah, he wasn't removed from the wrath of God, but was protected through the judgment against all flesh together with his family and all the animals that entered the ark. No matter how bad things might get upon the earth, the Lord is able to bring His people through them. Suppose for a moment that you were present when this thing like a great mountain slammed into the earth. If you were anywhere near the impact, you would die pretty much instantly, and if that were the case, you would as part of His body, find yourself instantly in the presence of Christ. Would you have suffered wrath or been delivered from it? Whats more, if God could deliver Daniel's three friends from the midst of a fire hot enough to kill the men who threw them into it, without even the least bit of a trace of smoke on their clothes, don't you thing He could keep you intact through any peril?
Flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God, but an unbeliever standing next to you when that mountain crashed into the earth would not be at the end of his or her troubles. I don't want to suffer pain or tribulation, nor do I want to see others suffer the same, even if they are unsaved people. Would God be unjust to make me watch people suffer wrath, especially considering that I haven't been faithful to do all that I can to deliver those people from destruction? Would God be unjust to let me suffer hunger when I've lived a life of relative comfort and have been well fed, but haven't done all I could to provide for others with need? While I've known people who've devoted all their livelihood and means to missionary work and the provision of those in need, you don't find many "mother Theresas" in the western world, or the eastern for that matter. If there were a perfect church perhaps the Lord would remove them before the times of the tribulation or at least prior to the persecutions to come, but where is that perfect church? The Lord does say to the church of Philadelphia (and thereby to all the churches) "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those that dwell on the earth." While this could be speaking to the event of the rapture, that interpretation doesn't make a great deal of sense. Consider the expression, "the word of My perseverance." This suggests that the Philadelphian church had to perservere under some significant pressure. Do you think that refers to perservering under the pressure of being called names by the media, or being forced to pay taxes for abortion, or being fired for refusing to perform one? These things could be called unkind and unjust, but don't really stack up against the kind of persecution that the early church faced, e.g. being stoned to death, set on fire, fed to wild beasts for sport, etc. I don't mean to suggest that we have to suffer those things to be faithful, but why would God deliver us from all such things when those who suffered genuine persecutions for their faith are called "worthy" to have been chosen for them and to receive special crowns for their martyrdom?
The pretribulation rapture doctrine just doesn't stand up to the test of the entire counsel of God. It requires two completely different "elect" peoples, two different "chosen" peoples, two different "churches" (the OT "congregation" is just a different word for "church") two different brides for God, and multiple occurences of the 1st resurrection, or resurrection of the just. When the Apostle Paul speaks about the restoration of Apostate Israel, he doesn't refer to them as a seperate entity from the church and why should he? They will enter into the covenant of peace which we already have in Christ.
If I were to die of a plague, or famine, or war, or any of the evils that are to come upon the earth, I trust that I would find myself immediately in God's presence, so wouldn't I have been kept from the hour of trial to come upon the whole earth? Some say that only the good die young, as though that were a bad thing, but typically in this world, the longer you live, the more evil you experience and the more sin that you end up committing. If you know the Lord, death can be more than a mercy, even as the Apostle said, to live is Christ (for those who are in Him) and to die is gain. We serve the Lord in this world and in the next, but most people never have the option of either one. I could understand the doctrine of a pretribulation rapture if it were for the less than faithful church, or mediocre church, but this isn't what Christ says to His churches. A weight of glory comes from a weight of suffering. The scripture actually says of the church that we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
The notion that God would suddenly say, "All you guys have been exceptionally faithful in your professions, avocations, occupations, and declarations, so I'm just going to pull you out of the troubles that my multitudes that come out of the great tribulation will have to suffer," seems more than a little silly. When the book of the revelation talks about the plagues, the bowl judgments and all that, it says that men wouldn't repent of all their sorceries, idolatatries, murders, fornications, etc., so where does the great multitude that comes out of the great tribulation come from? The scripture says what it says. I'm not making these things up. The pretribulation rapture doctrine, appealing as it is, just doesn't work with the bulk of scripture. It fits every definition of isogetic interpretation rather than exogetic interpretation, and has all the ear marks of cultic teaching, whether it's been accepted by mainstream evangelicalism or not. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. As you demonstrated with the translation you provided, this "non essential" doctrine actually contaminates the written word by causing translators with preconceptions to water down the truth in order to make it more palatable to our anemic form of modern christianity.
 

justaname

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Michael, I like they way you coin the phrase "non-essential" doctrine. In this we can agree, and so here is where I wish to leave it. You address some interesting points, and quite honestly I am not one to be closed minded. God bless you.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, justaname.

Wrong verse location, my friend. It's Matthew 22:37. If you "park" your cursor on the underlined verse location, you'll see what I mean.
 

justaname

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Michael,
I just wanted to know if you were aware of the persecution of the church in the middle east, africa, asia and other places. I felt it relevant to mention this in response to what you were attempting to convey in reference to a perfect church and suffering. Yes much of the west is pampered compared to the rest of the world. I do not believe the church will be perfected until His millennial reign, but that is just my opinion as to how I view the scriptures.

Shalom, justaname.

Wrong verse location, my friend. It's Matthew 22:37. If you "park" your cursor on the underlined verse location, you'll see what I mean.
Are you referring to my verse reference not aligning with the statement underneath? Yeah I have known about that for some time now, LOL. Then I though it was kinda neat and haven't changed it. :lol:
 
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michaelvpardo

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Justaname,
I'm aware of the fact that there are serious persecutions ongoing in the world, especially in what we refer to as the third world. The Lord is working in the church and will work in the church until the time of His return in glory. There is however a certain pattern in the churches, one of growth and pervading influence, then stagnation and pervading affluence leading finally to apostasy. It's much like the growth of a tree, where the oldest wood is more or less dead and the new growth occurs in the outer layer, the cambium, where the sap runs freely. The sap in the tree of the church is the Holy Spirit. Vibrant believers are full of the Holy Spirit, settled ones tend to be more full of themselves. In the example of Israel, the nation became indolent after having been blessed greatly by the Lord with material wealth and prosperity. Great wealth tends to lend itself to the delusion that we are self sufficient rather than reliant on the grace of God. We tend to think of persecution as a bad thing, and people suffer horrific evils at times under persecution, but the effect on the church as a whole usually is to make believers more reliant on grace. Of course this doesn't happen where the Spirit is not present and some churches are dead from the start, never having received the gift of God by faith. A church can be strong in doctrine but weak in faith or strong in faith and weak in doctrine, but the church as a whole is perfected (or actually completed) when each part, each member, does what it is called to do in the power of the Holy Spirit. As individuals, Christ helps us by providing what we are lacking, but the church was designed to function as a unit, all individuals supplying their part to the whole to function in "completeness" as a body, the body of Christ. No part of the body is without purpose and the perfect functioning of the body only comes from submitting to the leadership of the head, the person of Christ Himself.
Got to go to work. Take care and let your rest be in Him. Amen
 
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veteran

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I have no quarrel with you about the Return of Christ after the Tribulation. The rapture of the saints is not His return, for His people will return with Him, having been caught away at least seven years prior.

Our Lord Jesus SPECIFICALLY... showed our time of gathering to Him, is to be after... the tribulation of those days (Matt.24:29-31). After the tribulation is when He said He's going to send His angels to gather His elect from the four corners of Heaven, and from the four corners of the earth (Mark 13:24-27).

The only way you could return with Him is when He brings the 'asleep' saints with Him, which would mean you would have to die beforehand.
 

Lively Stone

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Our Lord Jesus SPECIFICALLY... showed our time of gathering to Him, is to be after... the tribulation of those days (Matt.24:29-31). After the tribulation is when He said He's going to send His angels to gather His elect from the four corners of Heaven, and from the four corners of the earth (Mark 13:24-27).

The only way you could return with Him is when He brings the 'asleep' saints with Him, which would mean you would have to die beforehand.

Yes, the Lord will return after the Tribulation. With Him will be all the saints.

Zechariah 14:4-5
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
[sup]5 [/sup]Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Lively Stone.

Yes, the Lord will return after the Tribulation. With Him will be all the saints.

Zechariah 14:4-5
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
[sup]5 [/sup]Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

I fail to see how this passage bolsters your point. You'll find Dani'el is more appropriate.

Anyway, I think you failed to see what I wrote before. I said,

'I believe that there are STAGES to the Second Coming!

1. Yeshua` and His messengers arrive within the atmosphere of the earth.
2. Yeshua` sends out His messengers to gather all of His saints from around the globe.
3. The Resurrection (Greek: Anastasis) happens first - wherever saints are dead and buried, for those who were dead in the Messiah, whatever (if anything) is left of their mortal bodies is raised to life with God's Creative power to make new immortal bodies.
4. The Transformation (Greek: Enduoo Athanasia) happens second - the mortal bodies of those who were alive in the Messiah are changed into immortal bodies.
5. The Rapture (Greek: Harpazoo) happens third - we all are transported into the air (Greek: ouranos, often translated as "heaven").
6. We are then transported (right turn, Clyde!) not up to "Heaven," but THROUGH the "heaven," the "air," parallel to the earth's surface, to ISRA'EL!
7. We then meet up with the Master Yeshua` haMashiach (the Lord Jesus the Christ) in the air above haErets Yisra'el (the Land of Isra'el).
8. We then descend with Him to rescue national Isra'el, as the prophecies predict.'

In this way, a person need not be pre-trib to witness all His saints coming with Him at the Second Coming (step 8).

And, as I've also said before, there's no Marriage Supper of the Lamb nor Judgment Seat of the Messiah in "Heaven!" These events happen AFTER the Second Coming when He drinks wine newly (from a new cutting) in His Kingdom and when He has come to "judge the earth!"
 

Lively Stone

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And, as I've also said before, there's no Marriage Supper of the Lamb nor Judgment Seat of the Messiah in "Heaven!" These events happen AFTER the Second Coming when He drinks wine newly (from a new cutting) in His Kingdom and when He has come to "judge the earth!"

The Judgment and the Wedding take place immediately after the Rapture, but the Wedding feast takes place in the Kingdom after the Second Coming of Christ, as we come to set up housekeeping with our Bridegroom.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Lively Stone.

The Judgment and the Wedding take place immediately after the Rapture, but the Wedding feast takes place in the Kingdom after the Second Coming of Christ, as we come to set up housekeeping with our Bridegroom.

Well, that's PURELY theological opinion. Book, chapter and verse, please.
 

Lively Stone

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Shalom, Lively Stone.



Well, that's PURELY theological opinion. Book, chapter and verse, please.

Likewise...

And, as I've also said before, there's no Marriage Supper of the Lamb nor Judgment Seat of the Messiah in "Heaven!" These events happen AFTER the Second Coming when He drinks wine newly (from a new cutting) in His Kingdom and when He has come to "judge the earth!"

We will indeed drink wine with our Bridegroom in His Kingdom here on Earth, amen!
 

veteran

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Yes, the Lord will return after the Tribulation. With Him will be all the saints.

Zechariah 14:4-5
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
[sup]5 [/sup]Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Nothing in that Zech.14 chapter about a rapture prior to the tribulation. That Zech.14 event is Christ coming on the "day of the Lord" like Paul and Peter taught, and that event is what ENDS the tribulation. On that day, Christ gathers His saints from Heaven (asleep saints that have already died), and those of us still alive on earth, and then... we all will be with Christ there at Jerusalem.

But the Pre-trib Rapture theory instead preaches that His saints on earth are gathered to Him before... the tribulation ever starts! And that's a direct contradiction of the Scriptures as written.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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8. We then descend with Him to rescue national Isra'el, as the prophecies predict.

1) Where in scripture is it predicted that the Messiah will descend to the land of Israel?
2) If the dead and alive in Christ meet him in the air, and "national Isra'el" is still on the ground to be rescued, obviously "national Isra'el" is not in Christ. Where in scripture does it say that those not in Christ will be saved?

Also, please do us all a favor and not paste long listings of non-formatted scriptures, That makes your posts difficult to read. The verse numbers themselves will suffice. Thanks.
 

veteran

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1) Where in scripture is it predicted that the Messiah will descend to Israel?
2) If the dead and alive in Christ meet him in the air, "national Isra'el" is obviously not in Christ. Where in scripture does it say that those not in Christ will be saved?

Zechariah 14; Acts 1; -- Ezekiel 44; Isaiah 45; Isaiah 65; Ezek.37; Jer.31
 

veteran

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I said verse numbers, not chapters. I'm not going to waste my time trying to ferret out what you're trying to say.

You asked for Biblical proof. I gave where to go look it up, and those references I gave are not the only Scriptures written about it. As for wanting verse numbers only, that's what men's traditions like to do, pull a single verse out and apply their own meaning to it, and not keeping it within the context of the written Scripture. So no true Bible believer should want only a single Bible verse as proof to establish true Christian Doctrine.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

1) Where in scripture is it predicted that the Messiah will descend to the land of Israel?
2) If the dead and alive in Christ meet him in the air, and "national Isra'el" is still on the ground to be rescued, obviously "national Isra'el" is not in Christ. Where in scripture does it say that those not in Christ will be saved?

Also, please do us all a favor and not paste long listings of non-formatted scriptures, That makes your posts difficult to read. The verse numbers themselves will suffice. Thanks.
But, as can be seen in post #75, you don't always read "long listings of non-formatted scriptures" otherwise! (And, to what are you referring when you say "non-formatted?") That makes my posts difficult to support! Scriptures are not just verses or chapters; they are God's Word, and we should LOVE to read them over and over again! I'm not trying to "waste your time"; I'm trying to get you to READ SCRIPTURE, because IN THEM your questions are answered! There's no such thing as "wasted time" when it comes to reading Scripture!

You asked, "1) Where in scripture is it predicted that the Messiah will descend to the land of Israel?" The answer to this first question is in Acts 1:6-12 ...

Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV


and in ...

Isaiah 31:4-5
4 For thus hath the Lord spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the Lord of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
5 As birds flying, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.
KJV


and in ...

Isaiah 34:1-6
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
KJV


and in ...

Isaiah 63:1-7
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
KJV


and in ,,,

Isaiah 64:1-5
1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!
3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.
4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
KJV


and in ...

Joel 2:28-3:2
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV


It's a recurring theme in many of the OT prophecies! The shorter question would be "Where is it NOT predicted?"

Then, you asked, "2) If the dead and alive in Christ meet him in the air, and 'national Isra'el' is still on the ground to be rescued, obviously 'national Isra'el' is not in Christ. Where in scripture does it say that those not in Christ will be saved?"

Romans 11:11-32
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (permanently)? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the Jews) to jealousy.
12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them be the riches of the world, and the (temporary) diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (permanent) fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the (temporary) casting away of them be the (permanent) reconciling of the world, what shall the (permanent) receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (RESURRECTION!)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer (the Rescuer), and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't change His mind and renig on His promises!)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV


Don't like all the Scripture? Oh well! That's just too bad! Some people never read them enough to learn from them!
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Jan 6, 2012
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You asked, "1) Where in scripture is it predicted that the Messiah will descend to the land of Israel?" The answer to this first question is in Acts 1:6-12 ..

Acts 1:11 says nothing about where the messiah will return to. It only says that he will return in the same manner that he ascended, i.e., in clouds. Nor does it even say that he will return to the earth. All it says is that he will return in clouds, which is what Revelation corroborates. You are making an assumption and reading the Mount of Olives as the return location into the text.

Isaiah 31:4-5

The context of the above verses is Isaiah's time in which the remnant among Judah who trusted in YHWH were to be preserved from harm by his power; but those who trusted in the power of man by going to Egypt were to be cursed. Of course, this truth has been applicable throughout the ages; and since it has it cannot be considered a definitive proof text for the end time.

Isaiah 34:1-6

These verses don't say anything about setting foot in the land of Israel. The judgments described could be executed from heaven. Again, you're trying to read your narrative into the text.

Isaiah 63:1-7

Same as above comment.

Isaiah 64:1-5

Same

Joel 2:28-3:2

Same.

Then, you asked, "2) If the dead and alive in Christ meet him in the air, and 'national Isra'el' is still on the ground to be rescued, obviously 'national Isra'el' is not in Christ. Where in scripture does it say that those not in Christ will be saved?"

Romans 11:11-32

Romans 11 declares that only those who believe in Christ are to be saved. Paul also said that at the messiah's return those in Christ would either be raised or transformed to meet him in the air. Therefore, those who are not in Christ will not be raised or transformed to meet him in the air. They will be on earth.

You said that after this happens, all those in Christ will be gathered to Israel to rescue those still on the ground, who are not in Christ. But that contradicts what Paul said; and your explanation makes him out to be a liar.

Are these all of the verses that you have? Can you provide me something more definitive in which you're not reading your narrative into the text?
 

veteran

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Aug 6, 2010
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Acts 1:11 says nothing about where the messiah will return to. It only says that he will return in the same manner that he ascended, i.e., in clouds. Nor does it even say that he will return to the earth. All it says is that he will return in clouds, which is what Revelation corroborates. You are making an assumption and reading the Mount of Olives as the return location into the text.

Don't be silly...

Zech 14:1-4
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(KJV)

That proves beyond any doubt, that the Acts 1 event with Christ Jesus ascending from that Mount of Olives is ALSO... the place of His return.



The context of the above verses is Isaiah's time in which the remnant among Judah who trusted in YHWH were to be preserved from harm by his power; but those who trusted in the power of man by going to Egypt were to be cursed. Of course, this truth has been applicable throughout the ages; and since it has it cannot be considered a definitive proof text for the end time.

Are you Biblically illiterate?!? All one need do is read the rest of Isaiah 31 to know what timing it is...

Isa 31:5-9
5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also He will deliver it; and passing over He will preserve it.
6 Turn ye unto Him from Whom the children of Israel have deeply revolted.
7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin.
8 Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.
9 And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, Whose fire is in Zion, and His furnace in Jerusalem.
(KJV)

That event of every man casting away his idols is only for one specific timeframe, and that's when Christ Jesus returns to this earth to take rule over everything!!! That fire in Zion and furnace in Jerusalem? That's God's consuming fire that's to END this present world (2 Pet.3).

What irks the most is how you were too lazy to even go back into Isaiah 31 for yourself and verify that as written, and instead tried to pretend Retroybyter was misapplying that Scripture!


These verses don't say anything about setting foot in the land of Israel. The judgments described could be executed from heaven. Again, you're trying to read your narrative into the text.

Wrong again!

Idumea, or Edom, involved the lands south of Judea in the middleast. In Isaiah 34 God is proclaiming how He's going to wipe out the Idumeans upon it and give it back to His people Israel in final, and forever...


Isa 34:4-5
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For My sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of My curse, to judgment.
(KJV)

Isa 34:16-17
16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and His spirit it hath gathered them.
17 And He hath cast the lot for them, and His hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.
(KJV)

Doesn't have to specifically say the name Israel to know that's who God intends in those 16-17 verses. The casting of lots for Israel involves their specific inheritances in the land by tribal divisions. God gave the land from the river in Egypt to the Euphrates river in the north to Israel as their borders. It was first promised to Abraham and his seed, forever.


Romans 11 declares that only those who believe in Christ are to be saved. Paul also said that at the messiah's return those in Christ would either be raised or transformed to meet him in the air. Therefore, those who are not in Christ will not be raised or transformed to meet him in the air. They will be on earth.

Wrong. Per Zech.14, Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem when He returns; and that's specifically... where we are gathered to Him at, on earth.

Rev 5:10
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

I get so tired of people just throwing out junk ideas of men they heard, like perpetual repeating puppets manipulated by men's doctrines that won't take the time to even read... God's simple Word.


You said that after this happens, all those in Christ will be gathered to Israel to rescue those still on the ground, who are not in Christ. But that contradicts what Paul said; and your explanation makes him out to be a liar.

If you had studied the Old Testament first like you are supposed to as a believer on Christ Jesus, then you wouldn't be asking that kind of question. Paul was quoting... from the OT prophets within that Romans 11 Scripture about Israel being saved. But you don't know that because it appears the Biblically illiterate Bible teachers you listen to have probably told you the Old Testament Books are all dead history! They've lied to you about that, and apparently you don't have a clue as to how or why.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
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Zech 14:1-4 ... proves beyond any doubt, that the Acts 1 event with Christ Jesus ascending from that Mount of Olives is ALSO... the place of His return.

No, it really doesn't. Verses 1-2 describe events that occurred during the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD quite accurately. Verse 3 very likely goes with verses 1-2 because the text literally says in both the LXX and MT that YHWH will fight (deploy in the LXX) IN the nations, not against them. This fits the context of verses 1-2 very well. This same pattern is repeated in verse 14 that says Judah will fight (deploy in the LXX) IN Jerusalem.

The messiah stood on the Mount of Olives many times nearly 2000 years ago in fulfillment of the bolded part of verse 4, so there is no reason to look for or expect, a future fulfillment.

Are you Biblically illiterate?!? All one need do is read the rest of Isaiah 31 to know what timing it is...
That event of every man casting away his idols is only for one specific timeframe, and that's when Christ Jesus returns to this earth to take rule over everything!!! That fire in Zion and furnace in Jerusalem? That's God's consuming fire that's to END this present world (2 Pet.3).

No, I'm definately not biblically illiterate. But I do assiduously avoid jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions, like you do and will have to answer for. And you ignore the witness of the new covenant writers who have explicitly stated that both Zion and Jerusalem are above.

Wrong. Per Zech.14, Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem when He returns; and that's specifically... where we are gathered to Him at, on earth.

As I said, Christ walked the Mount of Olives many times. There is no reason or justification for ignoring that reality to project the prophecy's fulfillment into the future. It is an unbelieving heart that continually rejects such obvious past fulfillments of scripture to fabricate speculative falsehoods.

Also, you conveniently ignore the fact that the Israelis have identified the location of Azal. Unfortunately for your narrative, it lies due south of both Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives. This fact alone crushes your fable which states that people will flee east through the Mount of Olives to Azal.