What Should A Person Do If They Miss The Rapture ?

there you go rach. i suppose that defeits veterans theory.

teamventure said:

there you go rach. i suppose that defeits veterans theory.

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Well, I believe so....but my point is this...he's welcome to think differently, I just wish he would spin around and accuse us of being 'unbiblical'. Quite clearly we've poured over scripture to reach the conclusions we have. I'm not trying to sway him to my view...he's welcome to keep believing in post trib, pre mil....I just don't want him declaring me a false doctrine pusher for my beliefs. This is not a salvation issue to go to war over, and you'd think that as brothers and sisters we could 'discuss' our differences in a somewhat respectful if not loving manner.

i agree. to be honest i don't care if someone is pre, post, or mid, but to say that someone will fall for the antichrist b/c they hold to one of those is ludicris.

Rach said:

Well, I believe so....but my point is this...he's welcome to think differently, I just wish he would spin around and accuse us of being 'unbiblical'. Quite clearly we've poured over scripture to reach the conclusions we have. I'm not trying to sway him to my view...he's welcome to keep believing in post trib, pre mil....I just don't want him declaring me a false doctrine pusher for my beliefs. This is not a salvation issue to go to war over, and you'd think that as brothers and sisters we could 'discuss' our differences in a somewhat respectful if not loving manner.

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Amen.

Rach said:

Hey Veteran, thanks for answering. Now, I never said you said that salvation was in question. The very clear assumption based on your posts and accusations, do lead me there, however. I do not understand why people need to act with such venon against people who have different views on eschatology. It goes beyond theological debate and delves into the realm of 'insulting one's mother'...

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The simple reason why I hate 'any' false doctrine that leads a fellow-beleiver into false worship of another in place of our Lord Jesus is because I care about their soul. Anyone who heeds our Lord's and His Apostle's warnings about the coming false messiah for the end as written, ought to feel the same way. So if one who holds to a false doctrine that leads them to bow to the image of the beast thinks I'm insulting them by my being against, or speaking against their doctrine, or even their being in deception, then so be it! I'm not into political correctness.

See, here's the problem. You say Amil is a false doctrine, and I say Pre mil is a false doctrine. You whip out your verses, I pull out mine. You say it orginated not in the 1st century, but the 2nd (which is debatable) and I say fine, but Pre mil wasn't around til after both of those (which you would also debate)...and then the insults and accusations come out, how I'm a false prophet, that I'm pushing an evil doctrine...maybe you don't say the words "you're not saved"...but at that point it's only semantics...you've accused in everything but the direct words.

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If you personally... feel insulted because of me or anyone else proclaiming certain doctrines as false, as coming from false prophets, even a doctrine you admit you don't trust in, then you might as well tear out a whole lot of pages of God's Word, or maybe create your own personal Bible version to suit yourself. But I like God's Word fine just as it's written, and I intend to follow it, faithfully. Much of your bantering with this has absolutely... nothing to do with Scripture debate, and is only the expression of your personal feelings.

Why do we need to go there? Why can't you just say..."I don't agree with you, I can't see scripture saying that, but as you love Jesus and eagerly look for His return, I'll call you my sister". If you're so worried that I'll start worshipping a false Jesus, why don't you spend your time and energy on making sure everyone know who the real Jesus is...and how scripture says we will know in an instant when Jesus returns, without doubt...and that scripture tells us that the Antichrist will try and decieve us...if possible. That as God's children we live in the light, and will not be lead astray. I do not understand the tack you are taking, and I cannot see how it glorifies and magnifies Jesus.

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There are times when I just stop replying to others, but most often it's some foolish remark made against me first that leaves any honest debate that was before, which I'm then forced to defend myself, pretty much like your doing right now, since I never questioned a person's belief on Christ, only their deception with doctrines of men from false prophets that lead away from Christ Jesus. Just like when John was told to eat the Book, and it was sweet like honey to taste, but bitter in the belly, we are to not just heed the sweet parts of God's Word, but heed the bitter parts as well, that is, if we want the Truth.

And the bitter part for the last days is there is... a false one coming to set himself up as God, working great signs and miracles, and he will deceive the majority, including many of our brethren (2 Thess.2:3-4; Rev.13:11-17). For the last days, that is probably one of the greatest and strongest warnings, and I have no doubts as to what the times today are, and I'm not at all alone in that. But of course, that no doubt tends to go against the doctrines of Amillennialism, doesn't it?

"Some Premillenarians have spoken of Amillennialism as a new view and as one of the most recent novelties, but this is certainly not in accord with the testimony of history. The name is new indeed, but the view to which it is applied is as old as Christianity. It has at least as many advocates as Chiliasm amoung the Church Fathers of the second and third centuries, supposed to have been the heyday of Chiliasm. It has ever since been the view most widely accepted, is the only view that is either expressed or implied in the great historical Confessions of the Church, and has always been the prevalent view in Reformed circles." - Louis Berkhof, systematic theology

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Well, it's not the prevalent view anymore now, is it? Those like Tim LaHaye now has his Left-Behind books and movies taking place over God's Holy Writ in a lot of Churches today. They will have their reward.

My concern is that you're verbally attacking anyone who differs in opinion to you. That's all. I don't agree with Pre-mil theology, but I cannot see that as reason to accuse them of pushing false doctrine. Eschatology is an important issue, yes, but it's not a salvation issue, and therefore should be left in the hands of the Holy Spirit and the Bible to guide one's conscience. I'm all for discussions on theology and doctrine, but it should not be used as an excuse to go to war.

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You mean, like yourself? Have I verbally attacked you for holding to Amillennialism, which I consider a false doctrine of men? Did you initiate that belief? Are you the author of it? I see the pre-trib rapture theory as a false doctrine of men too, the only difference between the two is that Amillennialism historically began in certain parts of Asia Minor if I recall, and was not a doctrine of the early 1st century Church, and the pre-trib theory was not a doctrine until the 1800's. Doesn't really matter when they started anyway, just like how some historians say Gnosticism only began in the 2nd century A.D., when it's ideas go much farther back in ancient history.

What matters is, are those ideas actually God's Word? I say they are not, and I am willing to prove it Bibllically, but not with someone who doesn't intend to stay within the Scriptures. That's the difference, staying within the Scriptures vs. reverting back to what men's traditions say.

It is easy to be mistaken. That's a given, in anything. So is it possible that I and others are 'mistaken'?...sure. I believe I'm right, but I'm not arrogant enough to suppose that God is finished teaching me. But as far as 'unbiblical' goes, that would suppose that my opinions were founded on something other than scripture. That is not true...all my opinions have been led to where they are because of scripture. Because I couldn't see scripture saying anything else.

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What does it mean when someone is shown a revelation in God's Word that clearly goes against what they've been taught by some religious organization of men? Some begin to dig deeper into God's Word for theirselves, but others choose to keep relying on what they've been taught by a system, not accepting the need for change, even when their eyes have been partially opened by the revelation. With some, it gets to be like a political campaign battle based on self-pride. I assure you, I don't hold to what I understand in God's Word for any reasons of self-pride, nor money, nor political agenda, etc. I've been seeking the Truth all my life, and I've realized that it comes with a price, and that price is about taking the bitter parts with the sweet parts. And the times today are perilous times, not sweet times.

So call me mistaken if you want, but to call it unbiblical is supposition at best, based upon your apparent inability to even concieve that others can read the bible, and be spoken to through it. I am saved, I do have the Holy Spirit, and I assure you that I prayed and studied to reach the opinion I did.

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What I'm prepared to do is to go into God's Word with you about it (Amillennialism), not spend all day hearing and giving opinions about it.

Actually, the bible is not clear. The only direct reference to the millenium in the entire bible, is that one verse. And it's in a book that is chock a block full of apocalyptic images. You are aware, are you not, that the Bible uses figurative language in many places? Or do you suppose that Jesus is actually a lamb?? That God is a giant chicken who wants to gather Israel to Him? The book of Revelations is full of these kind of images. If you have indeed delved into the 'prophets' then you should know that this type of imagery is usual in apocalyptic literature. So, you would want me to assume, that the one reference to the 1000 years, written in a highly figurative book, should be taken literally? Even when, taken against all sorts of other verses...in books that are not figurative, they state that when Jesus finally returns, He brings everything to an end and makes all things new.
Let's have a brief look at some of those passages.

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I've heard that approach before many times, and a lot of the time it's used as an method to try and escape a Scripture debate. But yes, I'm very aware of how God uses metaphor, parables, and figures of speech in His Word. The answer to when someone tries that escape is easy, because even when God uses metaphors, parables, and figures of speech, it's always about a Truth that He is simply using other things to describe them with, and most often they're things that are easy to understand. That's why He uses agricultural ideas so much in Bible analogies, like sowing seed, etc.

As for trying to disprove the thousand years period written of in Rev.20 as not being literal, there are many... Bible Scriptures written about that time, and they are literally proven by the type of 'events' Biblically associated with them in other Scripture, like the last half of Zechariah 14 events, Ezekiel's temple, etc.

In 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 it tells us that Christ must reign in power, abolishing all rule and authority and power, until He has put all His enemies under His feet, and then the 'end will come'. The last enemy will be death itself. Then in 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 we are told that death is 'swallowed up in victory' at the second coming of Christ. So we are told that at Christ's second coming He will defeat death, and then end will come. Therefore, the reign of Christ described in v. 25, during which he progressively abolishes all rule and authority and power, is presently occurring. Paul is describing what Christ is doing now, as he sits enthroned at the right hand of the Father.

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One of the matters in God's Word that's important to recognize, is how it sometimes makes timeline jumps, back and forth, and also with a later written Scripture, updates are given for an earlier prophecy (like our Lord's references to the Book of Daniel in His Olivet Discourse, and in Revelation). Likewise with what Paul did in 1 Cor.15:24, which if you'll notice, Paul attached a condition with that 'end'. What was it?

1 Cor 15:24
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
(KJV)

The putting down of all rule and all authority and power by Christ over His enemies cannot happen until He returns to take that power, so it should be easy to understand that Christ's return must occur first, and then that rule. Thus the meaning is that He returns first, and that reign over His enemies must happen next, and then comes the end when He delivers up the Kingdom to The Father, in that order.

1 Cor 15:27
27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, Which did put all things under Him.
(KJV)

Paul even covers that 'when' condition a bit more in the above verse. The Father is "excepted" in that reign by Christ over all His enemies. And the next verse reveals that when that reign is done, then The Son will deliver up the Kingdom to The Father, and will be subjected to The Father.

1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
(KJV)

That's clearly about The Son only reigning over His enemies, and then in final, He and The Father together, that God may be all in all, pointing to God's Eternity.

We are also told in Eph 1:20 that Christ is currently reigning in power and authority at the right hand of God. So how can death still continue into the Millenium, when Christ has abolished it at His return??

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Matt 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
(KJV)


Luke 1:31-33
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call His name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:
33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
(KJV)

Acts 2:29-30
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
(KJV)

God's Throne in Heaven is different than David's throne that has always been on earth.


Ps 2:6-12
6 Yet have I set my king upon My holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(KJV)

That specifically, is about the time of Christ's thousand years literal reign, ruling over His enemies, on earth. Christ is coming to literally take reign over all nations upon the earth. And in final per Rev.22, the throne of God and of the Lamb (Christ) is shown upon the earth.

In 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 Paul declares that 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God'. The 'kingdom' in view, according to the Pre-mil is the millennial kingdom, but Pauls declaration that unglorified, 'flesh and blood' bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God precludes a millennium folling the second coming of Christ.

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The very fact that Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, should have revealed to you that today, the event of our gathering to Christ as written is still yet to occur, simply because our flesh bodies have yet to go through the change Paul spoke of for the "last trump". That does absolutely nothing to disprove the future literal thousand years of Rev.20 with His elect shown gathered to Him when He rules on earth over all His enemies, with that rod of iron of Psalms 2.

The Kingdom of God into which all believers are granted entrance at the time of their glorification (ie at the second coming of Christ), is the eternal phase of God's kingdom rule. This eternal phase, at the beginning of which Jesus 'deliver's up the kingdom to the God and Father' (v 24) follow immediately upon the second coming of Jesus. It is then that 'we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet' (v 51-52).

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I already showed how that is not so per the very 1 Cor.15:23-28 Scripture you quoted. Nor does that account for the events written in Ezekiel 40 throug 47. But Rev.20 does account for those Ezekiel events, so does Zech.14.


Zech 14:5-11
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Should be no question that's about Christ's future coming, and our gathering to Him. Even that idea of it being a day only known to The LORD is a reference to Scripture like Matt.24:36 per Christ Jesus.


8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

Living waters going out from Jerusalem? What's that? It's God's River of Ezekiel 47 and Rev.22, the same... River that flowed out of God's Eden to feed four other rivers on earth per Gen.2. Per Ezek.47, its location of flowing is given with specific geographical places in the holy land on earth, like Engedi and Eneglaim (Ezek.47:10). There won't be many gods known on the earth then as it is today. So, as long as idol worship to false gods continues on earth today, then we definitely know those events are still future to us.


10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
(KJV)

Jerusalem is yet... still to be safely inhabited today.


Zech 14:16-20
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

That certainly has not ever happened per history either. Notice those left of the nations that came against Jerusalem. Who are those? Those are the nations of the northern army out of the northern quarters that's to come upon the mountains of Israel at the battle of Armageddon, the last day of this world when Christ returns, per Rev.16, 19, and Ezek.38-39. Do you see how some of those will still be left after that great battle Christ comes with His angels to fight? And there they are, after Christ's return, being required to come up to Jerusalem to worship The KING (Jesus Christ) in that time. That's the time of Christ's literal reign on the earth, and it's about the events of Rev.20 when He rules with the rod of iron of Ps.2, His elect ruling with Him.

Finally, according to v 54-55, the end of death at the second coming of christ is the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8. There we read that God 'will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord will wipe tears away from all faces, and He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth.' Both the end fo death and the wiping away of all tears are associated in Rev 21:4 not with the coming of a millenial age but with the eternal state, ie the new heavens and new earth.

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The Isaiah 25 Scripture is about the vail of the Heavenly cast over all nations being removed for the time of Christ's return and reign on earth. Paul goes into detail in 1 Cor.15 about that requirement for death to be swallowed up in victory. Only those of the 1st resurection will have that victory over death during His Millennial reign, as written in Rev.20. In 1 Cor.15:53, per the Greek, Paul uses 4 different Greek words for the resurrection change. Some will be of the "resurrection of damnation" per John 5:28-29, showing they will still be liable to perish. That's about the wicked, and those nations left that came against Jerusalem per the Zech.14 Scripture. Obviously, those will not have put on 'immortality' in that time, their souls being still mortal (liable to die).

In Romans 8:18-23 we see that both the Christians and the earth itself 'groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.' Paul here describes the delieverance or redemption of the natural creation as connected with that of the children of God. It is when the sons of God are revealed (v19) that the creation itself shall experience it's redemption (v21). As there was solidarity between man and earth in the fall, so also there will be solidarity in the restoration. So if they are connected, this poses a problem for the Pre-mil: the consummate redemption of creation that occurs with Christ returns to redeem/glorify his people would appear to preclude any suffering or corruption of creation subsquent to his return. And yet in the Pre-mil view, the Millenium includes the corrupting presence of both sin and death.

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No problem at all, since we already read about God's River flowing out of Jerusalem in that time per the Zech.14 Scripture, and yet those left of the nations that came against Jerusalem on the day of Christ's coming are still there, not having perished. Ezekiel 47 also shows the Tree of Life manifested in that time with God's River flowing out of the Millennial sanctuary, or God's House on earth.

In 2 Peter 3:8-13 he writes that the 'day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and it's works will be burned up. The end of this present heavens and earth is the effect of the coming of Christ. Where is there room in Peter's scenario for an earthly millennium intervening between Christ's second coming and the new heavens and new earth?

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It's with Rev.20, Ezekiel 40-48, Zechariah 14, and even with Rev.22:14-15...

Rev 22:13-15
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus tells us in Matt.25 that the goats (wicked) separated on the left hand will go into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. So how is it that Rev.22 Scripture reveals the holy city manifested on earth, along with the tree of life, and yet the wicked are still outside its gates?

It's simple, at Christ's return there's going to be earth changes happen, but it won't be the new heavens and a new earth just yet. However, the holy city, God's River, and the tree of life, will all be manifested on earth with Christ's return.

Finally, Matt 25:31-46 brings up a serious question. In it we see the Son of Man return in glory and gather all the nations. He then judges them, sheep from goats. In Rev 20:11-15 the same judgement is described. The point being this: The Great White Throne Judgement of Rev 20:11-15 occurs after the millenial reign described in 20:1-10. But in Matt 25 the judgment occurs at the time of Christ's second coming/advent. The conclusion: the millenium of Rev 20:1-10 is simultaneous with the present age; it's now, preceding the second coming of Christ.

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No, the Millennium timing is covered by that event of Christ separating His sheep from the goats. That's a condensed prophecy for the end. That's revealing that the goats (wicked) will be there still in order to be... separated. The Scripture then simply jumps to the great white throne judgment time after that separating. But Ezek.40-47, Zech.14 about the wicked still stands, as does Rev.3:9 does also. And notice I didn't even have to bring up the Rev.20 Scripture to support that. Even Isaiah reveals a lag time with those held in the pit during Christ's thousand years reign...


Isa 24:18-23
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
(KJV)

Like I've been saying, there's a lot more Scripture proof for Christ's future literal thousand years reign on earth than just the Rev.20 Scripture. The Rev.20 Scripture is supposed to be a great 'revealing' of that event to go along with these previous prophetic Scriptures about it. I can't help it if those who have formed men's doctrines that go against the Scripture don't study the Old Testament prophets to find this out. No wonder the Rev.20 events look foreign to them within the New Testament Books.

teamventure said:

if i didn't know any better i'd think you're a troll.
show me biblical evidence that pre tribers are more likely to fall for the antichrist than other tribers.

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Interpret for me the Luke 17:34-37 Scripture.

Rach said:

Here are a few more passages that I would say support the idea that those truly regenerated won't be decieved by the anitchrist...whether or not the rapture is true.

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 23:27 ESV)

Quite clearly we will know the instant Jesus returns. We will not have to be told, or become aware that someone is capable of great miracles. Indeed, this passage says that it's not possible to deceive the the elect!!

For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. (1 Thessalonians 5:2-5 ESV)

We are God's elect. We might not know the day or hour, but we do know who it is we worship. We do know that his return will be instantly visible to all, and we also know that that 'no spirit but the Holy Spirit can say Jesus is Lord'. We know that anything that doesn't glorify Jesus, is a false doctrine. The very fact that we need to stop and consider if such a one 'could be Jesus...does this glorify Him?' will prove in itself that Jesus Himself has not returned!

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)

God sends a strong delusion to those who delight in evil. It says nothing about the elect being decieved.

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Matt 25:10-12
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But He answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(KJV)


Luke 13:25-28
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(KJV)

That kind of changes everything, doesn't it?

Christ's elect servants that will reign with Him as kings and priests will not be deceived by the coming false messiah. My hope is that everyone here that loves our Heavenly Father and His Son will remain steadfast, waiting for Christ's appearance, and not fooled into bowing to the false messiah that comes first. The iniquity the deceived brethren will commit, even after they had done many wonderful works in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, will be in falling away to bow to the fake Christ who comes first, not being aware. This warning must go out to the brethren, regardless of whether some heed it from Scripture or not.

Hey Veteran, thanks for taking the time to reply to me. While I appreciate how much time and effort you obviously put into your reply, there is no way I'm gonna answer all of it...because I simply do not have the time.

veteran said:

The simple reason why I hate 'any' false doctrine that leads a fellow-beleiver into false worship of another in place of our Lord Jesus is because I care about their soul. Anyone who heeds our Lord's and His Apostle's warnings about the coming false messiah for the end as written, ought to feel the same way. So if one who holds to a false doctrine that leads them to bow to the image of the beast thinks I'm insulting them by my being against, or speaking against their doctrine, or even their being in deception, then so be it! I'm not into political correctness.

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As per the verses I posted above...I disagree with your belief that a truly regenerated Christian will fall prey to a false Christ. Sure, we're stupid sometimes, we make mistakes...but you're talking about actually putting our trust, belief and faith in someone who is not Jesus. For you to say that I would fall into that trap just because I don't share your views on this topic, is for you to doubt not only me and my faith (which you know nothing about) but to also doubt the Holy Spirit dwelling within me. That's not your call. At all. And even if you truly think I could be heading for such soul suicide, calling me unsaved, is not going to help your point. And Veteran...you are in fact calling me that. If you fear for my soul, then you fear for my salvation. Don't...it is, as it always has been and always will be, in the hands of Jesus. You say you have verses to say I will be fooled...I've shown you verses that say I won't. How about this: I keep loving Jesus and we leave it to God?

If you personally... feel insulted because of me or anyone else proclaiming certain doctrines as false, as coming from false prophets, even a doctrine you admit you don't trust in, then you might as well tear out a whole lot of pages of God's Word, or maybe create your own personal Bible version to suit yourself. But I like God's Word fine just as it's written, and I intend to follow it, faithfully. Much of your bantering with this has absolutely... nothing to do with Scripture debate, and is only the expression of your personal feelings.

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Veteran...I don't know you, at all. Why would I be insulted by you? I'm simply trying to point out that you declaring war and making a secondary issue into a primary one, is not making you friends and influencing others to your way of thinking.
I didn't say I "don't trust" in the doctrine I espouse. I said I'm not stupid enough to think I know everything, and that I won't be suprised if God either grows my understanding or proves me wrong! Human understanding and interpretation is just that...human. No one is perfect, and that means we have to be open to the idea that our opinions are not perfect. I will happily change my mind if God or the Spirit shows me differently. But you and your opinions are not God. It should be beneath you to suggest I'm 'making up my own version of the Bible'.... I'm faithfully following what both my study of scripture (the very same one you have), prayer and the Spirit has led me too.
And as for my 'banter', it has as much basis in 'scriptual debate' as your own opinions....so, right back at ya. If that accusation works for me, it works just as well for you. As I said...you have verses, I have verses. I say my interpretation is correct....blah, blah. Now you're just getting tetchy. Which is my point in all of this. Being tetchy doesn't make you look like someone 'concerned for the souls of others', it makes you look like a grumpy child who isn't being told yes.

There are times when I just stop replying to others, but most often it's some foolish remark made against me first that leaves any honest debate that was before, which I'm then forced to defend myself, pretty much like your doing right now, since I never questioned a person's belief on Christ, only their deception with doctrines of men from false prophets that lead away from Christ Jesus. Just like when John was told to eat the Book, and it was sweet like honey to taste, but bitter in the belly, we are to not just heed the sweet parts of God's Word, but heed the bitter parts as well, that is, if we want the Truth.

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I'm really not sure what you understand about Amil, but I am totally confused in regards to where you manage to find my apparent interpretation that leads away from Jesus and is a total rejection for the 'bitter' parts of scripture. That sounds like an opinion based on an assumption. I'm not forcing you to continue this conversation, but I will say this; as far as foolish comments that have lead to defence, you cannot put that solely on me. I'm far from perfect. I fall back on sarcasm and tend to snap before thinking...and sometimes afterwards. But for you to say that you only respond this way from the illfavoured actions of others, well, its a cop out. I only started this conversation with you in the first place, because you were busy cutting down anyone who disagreed with you.

And the bitter part for the last days is there is... a false one coming to set himself up as God, working great signs and miracles, and he will deceive the majority, including many of our brethren (2 Thess.2:3-4; Rev.13:11-17). For the last days, that is probably one of the greatest and strongest warnings, and I have no doubts as to what the times today are, and I'm not at all alone in that. But of course, that no doubt tends to go against the doctrines of Amillennialism, doesn't it?

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I have never said I don't believe that end time persecution will escalate. I even believe there will be an anitchrist. That has nothing to do with my Amil opinion. I have no doubt that the antichrist will perform signs and miracles...enough to lead the elect astray...if possible. Veteran, I have the HS inside of me, and I will bow down to no one but Christ. And as I will know instantly when He arrives, I have no worries I will end up worshipping a comparitively two bit hack who comes to my attention through gossip or media. So while I appreciate your concern, please stop worrying for me....
My point is this...if you are truly in this argument soley for concern of Christians falling prey to the anitchrist, and not because you enjoy winning arguements and trading insults, then my statement above...please stop worrying for me, because I AM certain...should be enough to end such a conversation.

You mean, like yourself? Have I verbally attacked you for holding to Amillennialism, which I consider a false doctrine of men? Did you initiate that belief? Are you the author of it? I see the pre-trib rapture theory as a false doctrine of men too, the only difference between the two is that Amillennialism historically began in certain parts of Asia Minor if I recall, and was not a doctrine of the early 1st century Church, and the pre-trib theory was not a doctrine until the 1800's. Doesn't really matter when they started anyway, just like how some historians say Gnosticism only began in the 2nd century A.D., when it's ideas go much farther back in ancient history.

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Have you verbally attacked me for holding to Amil??? Do you even read your replys??? Apparently, according to you, holding the position I do makes me foolish, willfully making scripture up, pushing a false doctrine that will lead myself and others to satan, and yeah, unbiblical...even though I've provided enough scripture to show it is indeed the Bible that I get my 'ideas'.
Alrighty...that's as far as I go. At some point in a conversation that you know is getting absolutely no where, you need to just stop. So...sorry we can't agree, sorry you feel the need to question my intelligence, love of Jesus, ability to read scripture and my actual salvation should I stay on my path.
I really have no doubt that one day we'll see each other in heaven, and should I be wrong, I'll apologise. Here's hoping you'll be gracious enough to do the same.

thank you Angelina. there has been way too much arguement over the rapture.
veteran, you still haven't given me any scripture that supports your specific stance.
the bottem line is that if the timing of the rapture was a salvation issue, the word would have been more clear about it.
that is all.

The Word isn't clear about it because the doctrine isn't in the Word to begin with.

A fully regenerated believer will not worship a false Christ, but would a fully regenerated believer obstinately hold to a doctrine that runs contrary to what is written in the Bible? I may be the only one here, but I believe that a truly born again believer would love God and have a respect for His word enough to study it and search for the truth and if necessary, change his or her beliefs to align with it.

It was the serpent in the garden who deceived Eve by telling her that what God said wasn't what He really meant. When we speak of the millennial reign of Christ, we can point to Revelation 20:4 because it says, "...they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

It's in the literal text, no references, allusions, or inferences. It's right there for us to see.

When we speak of the Great White Throne of Judgment, we can point to Revelation 20:11-12 because it says, "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

Once again, it's right there in the text.

There are many others (antichrist, judgment seat, tribulation, etc.), but there is not one passage in the Bible that plainly states that the Church will be raptured prior to the tribulation. Every passage given in support of this doctrine requires some sort of assumption.

hey veteran, are you pro israel? just curious.

Angelina said:

Well this is interesting. One of my main reasons for joining this forum was that it did not hold to the pre-trib rapture doctrine, something that I found was prevalent on most Christian forums. As a member of other forums that hold to this doctrine, I find myself being a target by other members who think that I have been deceived or that I am obviously not saved or that I do not have the Holy Spirit because of it...six of one and half a dozen of the other...as the saying goes.

As it has been pointed out previously, this is not a salvation issue, however, let's look at it this way...If I continue to live my life as a believer and rapture occurs before the tribulation, I have lost nothing...God is not going to leave his children behind because they did not believe in the Pre-Trib doctrine [as this is not a salvation issue]. If however, there is no rapture before the tribulation, I again, have lost nothing....pretty much a waste of time arguing about if you ask me. ^_^

Blessings!!!

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And prior to our Lord Jesus' return, if a pseudo-Christ appears working miracles and wonders on earth like our Lord Jesus did, what then?

Our Lord Jesus was very specific how He meant about the 'pseudochristos' (a pseudo Christ) per the Matthew 24:23-26 Scripture. He showed the miracle working by that coming false one would almost... deceive His own elect, IF... it were possible. Now that's about the level of power to deceive. So it's not about any previous human born on this earth with that level of power to do that (except our Lord Jesus at His first coming). This is why Apostle Paul was specific about that too in 2 Thess.2, when he said the coming false one will work with "all power". In other words, it's referring to a supernatural level of power that truly would almost deceive Christ's own faithful.

Because of that coming event upon this earth, it makes knowing the season of our Lord Jesus' second coming per God's Word a very important matter, even a life and death (spiritual death) matter. This is why He revealed the idea that wheresoever the dead carcase is, that's where the eagles will be gathered together...

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?: And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)


Our Lord expects us to use common sense and the natural when giving those kind of symbolic metaphors. Eagles kill their prey; they do not go after what is dead ("carcase"). So who do those eagles actually represent? They represent Satan's host!

The first one 'taken' idea our Lord Jesus taught, is actually... about the deceived... as symbolic carcases... "gathered together" by the false messiah and his hosts when he comes.

teamventure said:

thank you Angelina. there has been way too much arguement over the rapture.
veteran, you still haven't given me any scripture that supports your specific stance.
the bottem line is that if the timing of the rapture was a salvation issue, the word would have been more clear about it.
that is all.

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I've given my stance on the timing of our Lord's Jesus return per Bible Scripture often, and not just on this thread.

If someone should come along and claim to perform miracles like Jesus did, or even actually do them, we know it isn't Jesus, don't we? We know the manner in which Jesus will return and He doesn't come performing miracles. So...when the Antichrist does come, he can only turn the heads of those who do not know Christ, or the elect, which is Israel.

So...no worries on that score. The Church will not be here, or we would rise up and defeat him by the power of the word.

teamventure said:

hey veteran, are you pro israel? just curious.

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I'm pro-Israel, but NOT pro-Orthodox Judaism-Phariseeism. God is allowing the coming false messiah to sit in their future temple in Jerusalem, just because of their rebelliousness in refusing His Son. That's how He's going to sort His people of Israel from among the pagan foreigners that crept in among them centuries ago, and that are deceiving them away from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Lively Stone said:

If someone should come along and claim to perform miracles like Jesus did, or even actually do them, we know it isn't Jesus, don't we? We know the manner in which Jesus will return and He doesn't come performing miracles. So...when the Antichrist does come, he can only turn the heads of those who do not know Christ, or the elect, which is Israel.

So...no worries on that score. The Church will not be here, or we would rise up and defeat him by the power of the word.

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What our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24 about the coming false one, is that he will do great signs and wonders that would almost... deceive His own elect. So it's NOT about someone CLAIMING to do miracles. It's about a false one actually DOING those "great signs and wonders" (and miracles per Rev.13:11-17). That leaves no room for some man doing false claims! Already had many of those already. The one He was talking about won't have to claim much after people see those miracles and signs he's going to work on earth...


Rev 13:13-14
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(KJV)


The problem with that false working of deception, is that the whole world is going to proclaim and believe that one really is God, our Lord Jesus Christ, but it won't be. For those who have not listened to our Lord Jesus and His Apostles and prophets about that event, it will be very difficult for them to tell the difference. Got a painting on your wall of our Lord Jesus? That's probably what that false one that comes first is going to look like. Our Lord Jesus revealed to us already just who that false one will be; it will be Satan himself, and per the Ezek.28 description of Satan, God said He created him the full pattern, and that includes his being a beautiful cherub, not some comic book character with horns and red flannel underwear.

The Antichrist will indeed perform some amazing feats, by the power of Satan himself, but the Church will not be bamboozled by him, as they will be with Christ. Those who remain as earth dwellers---sinners---will be, and unbelieving Israel will run that risk, except that God will be dealing with them during that time, bringing them to belief in the Messiah.

Lively Stone said:

The Antichrist will indeed perform some amazing feats, by the power of Satan himself, but the Church will not be bamboozled by him, as they will be with Christ. Those who remain as earth dwellers---sinners---will be, and unbelieving Israel will run that risk, except that God will be dealing with them during that time, bringing them to belief in the Messiah.

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I wish you were right that none of Christ's Church will be deceived by that coming false one, but I know that's not so, as our Lord Jesus already revealed with ideas like the five foolish virgins, and those who will say to Him on the day of His return, "Lord, lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name,...?"

And the very fact that our Lord Jesus warned how that false one is going to work great signs and wonders that would ALMOST deceive His own elect, that's proof that WE, His Church, are... still going to be here on earth to see those miracles by that false one.


How do we know our Lord Jesus was talking about believers on Him with the following?

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)

It's simple. They claim to know Him, and do works in HIS NAME. That certainly is NOT about those who don't believe on Him as The Saviour.

veteran said:

I wish you were right that none of Christ's Church will be deceived by that coming false one, but I know that's not so, as our Lord Jesus already revealed with ideas like the five foolish virgins, and those who will say to Him on the day of His return, "Lord, lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name,...?"

And the very fact that our Lord Jesus warned how that false one is going to work great signs and wonders that would ALMOST deceive His own elect, that's proof that WE, His Church, are... still going to be here on earth to see those miracles by that false one.


How do we know our Lord Jesus was talking about believers on Him with the following?

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)

It's simple. They claim to know Him, and do works in HIS NAME. That certainly is NOT about those who don't believe on Him as The Saviour.

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When Jesus catches away His Church, those who claim falsely that they knew Jesus as their Lord will not be included. They are unbelievers, and will be easy fodder for the Antichrist machine.

Should we Christians still be here as the Antichrist comes to power initially, that man of peace (and I do not deny that we may very well see that happen as dispensations will overlap somewhat)---we will be discerning and not fall for his wiles. We are the only people on this planet that have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Lively Stone said:

When Jesus catches away His Church, those who claim falsely that they knew Jesus as their Lord will not be included. They are unbelievers, and will be easy fodder for the Antichrist machine.

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Thing is, those are... believers on Him, otherwise they would not have been able to prophesy in His Name and do those wonderful works in His Name as written there in Matt.7. Can't just change what our Lord Jesus revealed there in order to try and serve a doctrine of men.

veteran said:

Thing is, those are... believers on Him, otherwise they would not have been able to prophesy in His Name and do those wonderful works in His Name as written there in Matt.7. Can't just change what our Lord Jesus revealed there in order to try and serve a doctrine of men.

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They think they are believers, but they aren't. I know many like that---those who do not do the will of God---don't you?

Lively Stone said:

They think they are believers, but they aren't. I know many like that---those who do not do the will of God---don't you?

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They are... believers, which is how... those wonderful works were worked 'through' them by The Holy Spirit. Those acts of prophesying in Christ's Name, casting out devils in His Name, etc., are works only The Holy Spirit could do through them. So it would be beneficial to you to pay heed to our Lord's Message there in Matt.7, and try to understand just why... He will turn those away when He returns.

Lively Stone said:

If someone should come along and claim to perform miracles like Jesus did, or even actually do them, we know it isn't Jesus, don't we? We know the manner in which Jesus will return and He doesn't come performing miracles. So...when the Antichrist does come, he can only turn the heads of those who do not know Christ, or the elect, which is Israel.

So...no worries on that score. The Church will not be here, or we would rise up and defeat him by the power of the word.

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Yes, this is what I've been trying to say. We know Jesus will return visibly, physically and with absolute power over all. We know that when He returns every single person will see it. Now granted...as you believe in the Rapture, unsaved people would not see or know at this time...but still, the saved would!! And then when He returned after the Trib, everyone would! But even if no pre-trib Rapture occurs, the Bible is clear...when Jesus returns visibly to earth, we will know in a flash, in a second...in an undeniable, unquenchable, amazed wonder of His glory! There is simply no room in this biblical interpretation for this scenario: "hey bob, turn on the tellie, there's this guy performing all kinds of miracles...and they're real too!!" or "man, I was just walking down the street, and right there in front of me this guy healed a person who had been hit by a car!" This is all knowledge brought from an outside source of information. When Jesus returns we won't need a friend to tell us, we won't be ignorant to the fact until we bump into Him performing some miracle. The Bible warns us to keep this fact in mind, and if we do, it won't be possible for us to be fooled.