Seems like this took all the oxygen out of this discussion…be a child of the King and don’t worry about when you will be gathered. Trust in the LORD!
What Should A Person Do If They Miss The Rapture ?
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horsecamp said:
Yes... God want's all to come right now, because they will benefit greatly if they recognizehorsecamp said:
the death, burial, & resurrection of Jesus Christ in their allotted time upon this earth. Paul
is telling us about this age of Grace and the reality of God's Promises attached to this age.
We know that all will not come in this age because the scriptures teach us this truth. 1st Cor.
15:23-24 says,
23 But each in his own order : Christ the first fruits, after
that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom
to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and
all authority and power.
Paul is simply telling us that everyone is not coming @ the same time. Some will come @ the
manifestation of the Sons of God, while many more will come @ the 2nd resurrection. The final
regathering will take place @ the "Creation's Jubilee", where the rest of God's enemies will have
access to the Kingdom of God. 1st Cor. 15:28 says,
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son
Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected
all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
Just as soon as the body of Christ is caught up to God's throne in heaven in Rev. 12:5, then the dragon is thrown down to earth for 3-1/2 yrs
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV
Rev 12:13-14
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
KJV
Many believe this to be the birth of Jesus, but we see that just as soon as the body of Christ 144,000 are birthed in the image of Christ full term, the devil is thrown down for 3-1/2 yrs.
After the body is CAUGHT UP, there will still be martyr's
Rev 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
KJV
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV
Rev 12:13-14
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
KJV
Many believe this to be the birth of Jesus, but we see that just as soon as the body of Christ 144,000 are birthed in the image of Christ full term, the devil is thrown down for 3-1/2 yrs.
After the body is CAUGHT UP, there will still be martyr's
Rev 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
KJV
No argument there, but doesn't the pre-trib rapture doctrine add to the book of the Revelation, by dividing the first resurrection into multiple resurrections "of the just?" And doesn't that come with a curse of having the plagues added to the offender? Only problem with that line of thought itself is that there have obviously been those who've taught the pre-trib rapture doctrine (which I no longer believe in) that are now long dead. (This is why I'm inclined to believe that the curse applies to those who willfully alter the book for the sake of deception.) Any opinion?Retrobyter said:
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Prophecy only makes sense in hindsight. Trying to make predictions using scripture is Gnosticism at best and tarot card reading at worst. Stop wasting time trying to know what is going to happen and prepare your heart by loving others. All else is a profound waste of time and stroke of ego.
What is the Wrath of God and how long does it last? I think it is all well described in Isa 63!
Who is this who comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he who is splendid in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save." Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress? "I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption had come. I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me. I trampled down the peoples in my anger; I made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."
(Isa 63:1-6 ESV)
Who is this who comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he who is splendid in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save." Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress? "I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption had come. I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me. I trampled down the peoples in my anger; I made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."
(Isa 63:1-6 ESV)
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Perhaps people who miss the rapture should follow Solomon's advice and eat, drink and be merry......
Or, perhaps people who build entire doctrines around one piece of scripture about meeting Jesus in the air should stop frightening others about being left behind
Or, perhaps people who build entire doctrines around one piece of scripture about meeting Jesus in the air should stop frightening others about being left behind
Wormwood
Chaps
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Michael.
Yes, you're absolutely right (again, IMO) that one who tries to fabricate the pretribulational rapture in the book of Revelation is INDEED altering the Scriptures, but are they the ONLY ones? I don't think so. The book of Revelation is so cryptic as to INVITE subjectivism! Everyone and his neighbor has a different view on how the book should be interpreted. And, there have been SO MANY interpretations proffered that it's not the best book in the Bible with which to start one's prophetic view.
The same is true for Yeshua`s own words in Matthew 24. How many ways have His words been interpreted and explained? I have no argument that they are indeed HIS words (at least the original words He spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic) that were written down by Mattityahu, but His words - as righteous and true as they were - have been transferred from person to person and language to language so often, that we NEED at this point to piece His words together between the three Synoptic Gospels and see just what the THREE remember Him saying. Furthermore, all we have as the earliest documents closest to the time He said the words are in the translation language of Koine Greek!
The truth is that just as bad as the pretribulational rapture position are any of the other positions, if they have been discovered to disagree with Scripture and are still being proffered as truth! The problem is that most people know nothing about logic and forming a thesis, testing its antithesis, and what to do if the proof for their position fails! If an assumption leads to a contradiction, then one is to conclude that the assumption was false, but try to get the average prophecy buff to do THAT! As with most models that are difficult to build, they will rather opt to "tweak" the results or add on exceptions or modifications to the original model that they believed so long and that took so much time and energy for them to build!
We just need to be careful when we point a finger at pretribbers to remember there are three fingers pointing back at ourselves!
LOL! I have LOTS of opinions; that's why I try to stick to the Bible so often!Michael V Pardo said:
Yes, you're absolutely right (again, IMO) that one who tries to fabricate the pretribulational rapture in the book of Revelation is INDEED altering the Scriptures, but are they the ONLY ones? I don't think so. The book of Revelation is so cryptic as to INVITE subjectivism! Everyone and his neighbor has a different view on how the book should be interpreted. And, there have been SO MANY interpretations proffered that it's not the best book in the Bible with which to start one's prophetic view.
The same is true for Yeshua`s own words in Matthew 24. How many ways have His words been interpreted and explained? I have no argument that they are indeed HIS words (at least the original words He spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic) that were written down by Mattityahu, but His words - as righteous and true as they were - have been transferred from person to person and language to language so often, that we NEED at this point to piece His words together between the three Synoptic Gospels and see just what the THREE remember Him saying. Furthermore, all we have as the earliest documents closest to the time He said the words are in the translation language of Koine Greek!
The truth is that just as bad as the pretribulational rapture position are any of the other positions, if they have been discovered to disagree with Scripture and are still being proffered as truth! The problem is that most people know nothing about logic and forming a thesis, testing its antithesis, and what to do if the proof for their position fails! If an assumption leads to a contradiction, then one is to conclude that the assumption was false, but try to get the average prophecy buff to do THAT! As with most models that are difficult to build, they will rather opt to "tweak" the results or add on exceptions or modifications to the original model that they believed so long and that took so much time and energy for them to build!
We just need to be careful when we point a finger at pretribbers to remember there are three fingers pointing back at ourselves!
terry said:
Revelation 11:14 is the middle of the tribulation. The two witnesses will have finished their 1260 day witness at the end of the 6th trumpet judgment.
25% of the population will die in the seal judgments and a third of the remaining 75% will die in the first 6 trumet judgments. So half of the people on
earth will die in the first half of the tribulation.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.aspen2 said:
10The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
11There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
I am not appointed to wrath. Jesus will call me up to meet him in the air. See you all there.
No If you are sealed by the Spirit of God you are not appointed to wrath...have you ever studied Eze 9; it is not necessary for you to be transported from this world to be protected from the Wrath of God!
And the LORD said to him, "Pass through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it." And to the others he said in my hearing, "Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity. Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were before the house.
(Eze 9:4-6 ESV)
And the LORD said to him, "Pass through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it." And to the others he said in my hearing, "Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity. Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were before the house.
(Eze 9:4-6 ESV)
And that Ezekiel 9 Scripture has not yet... happened, ever. It's one of the OT Scriptures where Peter was pulling from about God's judgment for the end of this world beginning with His Church (1 Peter 4:17).Saint said:
But try... to get brethren to read that and you'll get all sorts of excuses that it does not apply for the end, like it was fulfilled in Ezekiel's days, etc. The Ezekiel 8 chapter prior to it applies today also, which Ezek.9 is the result of those things involving false worship among God's people for the very end.
The Ezekiel 8 chapter reveals a deep falling away of God's people to pagan idol worship for the end and points especially to the "image of jealousy" setup in His temple in Jerusalem, a direct parallel to the event our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us of for the end, as per Rev.13:11-17 with the image of the beast and the workings of the false one in 2 Thess.2:3-4.
'oliver', on 20 Oct 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:
The rapture removes the church before the wrath of God:
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9)
The great tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 is the wrath of God on the world, combined with tribulation designed to bring the nation of Israel to repentance. The believing church will not go through that. It cannot suffer the wrath of God, because our sins have been atoned for by Jesus, and believers have already repented and believed. There can be no purpose in sending the church into the great tribulation.
However, we need to keep ourselves ready:
But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:34-36)
There will be a SUDDENLY; a sudden event. What is this event? It is the rapture in 4:17. AT this sudden event, two different groups of people get two different results. Those living in darkness are caught unaware as a thief in the night chatches people at a time they are not expecting. Those in darkness get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION at the time of the rapture.
But those living in the light of the gospel, get a different result: they get RAPTURED. They get "salvation" and get to "live together with Him." Please note the similarity: "So shall we ever be with the Lord" and "get to live together with Him." These two phrases are saying the SAME THING: Paul is still talking about the rapture in chapter 5. He did not change the subject.
What is the "sudden destruction?" It is the worldwide earthquake caused when the dead in Christ are raised. Look at Matt. 27: "The earth did quake...and the graves were opened." When those long dead are raised instantly, it causes a MAJOR earthquake. The dead in Christ are found around the world, so this will be a worldwide earthquake, like nothing this world has ever seen. It will indeed be "sudden destruction." It will come at a time of peace and safety, and at a time NOT EXPECTED, as a thief. Those in darkness are caught by this earthquake, but those that are born again are raptured and get to "live together with Him."
Lamad
Lamad
Lamad
Lamad
The rapture removes the church before the wrath of God:
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9)
The great tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 is the wrath of God on the world, combined with tribulation designed to bring the nation of Israel to repentance. The believing church will not go through that. It cannot suffer the wrath of God, because our sins have been atoned for by Jesus, and believers have already repented and believed. There can be no purpose in sending the church into the great tribulation.
However, we need to keep ourselves ready:
But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:34-36)
Good thing to do: look at the CONTEXT...but even better, understand the context. What is this "salvation" Paul is talking about?kaoticprofit said:
There will be a SUDDENLY; a sudden event. What is this event? It is the rapture in 4:17. AT this sudden event, two different groups of people get two different results. Those living in darkness are caught unaware as a thief in the night chatches people at a time they are not expecting. Those in darkness get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION at the time of the rapture.
But those living in the light of the gospel, get a different result: they get RAPTURED. They get "salvation" and get to "live together with Him." Please note the similarity: "So shall we ever be with the Lord" and "get to live together with Him." These two phrases are saying the SAME THING: Paul is still talking about the rapture in chapter 5. He did not change the subject.
What is the "sudden destruction?" It is the worldwide earthquake caused when the dead in Christ are raised. Look at Matt. 27: "The earth did quake...and the graves were opened." When those long dead are raised instantly, it causes a MAJOR earthquake. The dead in Christ are found around the world, so this will be a worldwide earthquake, like nothing this world has ever seen. It will indeed be "sudden destruction." It will come at a time of peace and safety, and at a time NOT EXPECTED, as a thief. Those in darkness are caught by this earthquake, but those that are born again are raptured and get to "live together with Him."
Lamad
Terry, where does John first mention wrath? It is at the 6th seal. Where is that in relation to the 70th week of Daniel? It is BEFORE the 70th week begins. The entire 70th week is the wrath of God. The first trumpet judgment is the beginning of His wrath. It is the beginning of the destruction of the earth. So in truth, prewrath and pretrib are the same. Both mean the rapture will take place before His wrath begins, and that will be before the 70th week begins.terry said:
Lamad
The days of great tribulation spoken of by Jesus will begin at the abomination event at the midpoint of the week. It will be a terrible time, as Satan is starting His killing machine via the mark and the two Beasts. But at the time the killing reaches its peak, say two years or so into the last half, God will pour out HIS wrath via the vials. So in truth, both God's wrath and Satan's wrath will be felt on earth at the same time. They cannot be separated considering timing. The trumpet judgments will come in the first half, and they too are a part of God's wrath. So any part of the 70th week will be a part of God's wrath, and the Bride will not be here.Trekson said:
Lamad
Sorry Tom, but you are as far from truth as East is from the West. Paul's 1 Thes. 4:17 rapture comes at least 7 years before Jesus comes on the white horse. lamadBrothertom said:
When you base something on a false interpretation, then all is wrong. Rev. 12:5 is not about the rapture of the church; it is about the birth of Jesus, and how the dragon tried to kill Him when He was a baby. The real rapture, Paul's rapture, takes place just before the 6th seal, and then John saw the Bride in heaven in chapter 7. This is over 3 1/2 years before 12:6afaithfulone4u said:
Lamad
I'm glad Pre-tribbers here reveal being tired of having the finger pointed at the false doctrine they hold to. It's a sign that they've been well warned about it even though they still choose to believe in it. If they think they have a right to push the lie still, then those of us like myself have the right to show them their error still.
Easy.iamlamad said:
Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
We ALL think we've got the truth, but do we really? The REAL TRUTH is that NO ONE has it ALL together! "Let God be true and EVERY man a liar!" (Romans 4:3.) Why do you think Pilate asked Yeshua`, "What is truth?" The emphasis was not on "what" or on "truth" but on "IS!" Pilate as a government official recognized that what may be "truth" to one person may not be "truth" to another. Every man has his own VERSION of the "truth." He KNEW that truth, for most people, is SUBJECTIVE and arbitrary. He didn't yet know (if he EVER did) that Yeshua` was God's Son! As the Son of God, Yeshua` could speak to him in ABSOLUTES and His message was OBJECTIVE, applying to all!
Rather than point at someone and say, "That's wrong," we need to say, "Based on God's Word, I believe that is wrong, and here's why: ...," admitting that WE TOO may also be wrong in what we conclude.
ONLY when we speak directly from God's Word (and even THAT from a proper interpretation of God's Word) can we be speaking the TRUTH. Whenever we begin to explain, we begin to interject human reasoning into the mix, and humans ... make ... mistakes! Even those with the best intentions still have errors entwined within our UNDERSTANDING of the "truth!"
Furthermore, you said, "It's a sign that they've been well warned about it even though they still choose to believe in it." Well, here, it's a matter of THE LACK OF OPTIONS! When one's error is pointed out, what does he have with which to replace it? It may not be that he WANTS to adhere to his error but that, for lack of options, he has nothing else to believe! Often, a particular view has been so drilled into a person's mind that, when they read a particular Scripture that has been used to support the old idea in the past, they will still see the old idea when they read the Scripture again! It takes time and re-education to see that the Scripture could mean something else! It takes time and exposure to other positions for a person to discard an old position for a new! "Rome wasn't built in a day!" Most people are SHEEP and follow a leader. It takes a GREAT DEAL OF ENERGY to overcome the "sheep mentality" and strike out on their own to opt for a new position! Most don't even know where to begin! How does one begin such a journey?
Don't be so harsh. Be sympathetic and patient. One can continue to point to why he FEELS that the other person is making an error, but the patient person will provide OPTIONS.
Somehow, you still managed to miss my point about finger-pointing. For all that is wrong with the pretribulational rapture position, what's RIGHT with anyone else's view?! Those who say, "I have the right to show them their error," need to LISTEN to what they are saying and judge THEMSELVES about their OWN belief-system!veteran said:
We ALL think we've got the truth, but do we really? The REAL TRUTH is that NO ONE has it ALL together! "Let God be true and EVERY man a liar!" (Romans 4:3.) Why do you think Pilate asked Yeshua`, "What is truth?" The emphasis was not on "what" or on "truth" but on "IS!" Pilate as a government official recognized that what may be "truth" to one person may not be "truth" to another. Every man has his own VERSION of the "truth." He KNEW that truth, for most people, is SUBJECTIVE and arbitrary. He didn't yet know (if he EVER did) that Yeshua` was God's Son! As the Son of God, Yeshua` could speak to him in ABSOLUTES and His message was OBJECTIVE, applying to all!
Rather than point at someone and say, "That's wrong," we need to say, "Based on God's Word, I believe that is wrong, and here's why: ...," admitting that WE TOO may also be wrong in what we conclude.
ONLY when we speak directly from God's Word (and even THAT from a proper interpretation of God's Word) can we be speaking the TRUTH. Whenever we begin to explain, we begin to interject human reasoning into the mix, and humans ... make ... mistakes! Even those with the best intentions still have errors entwined within our UNDERSTANDING of the "truth!"
Furthermore, you said, "It's a sign that they've been well warned about it even though they still choose to believe in it." Well, here, it's a matter of THE LACK OF OPTIONS! When one's error is pointed out, what does he have with which to replace it? It may not be that he WANTS to adhere to his error but that, for lack of options, he has nothing else to believe! Often, a particular view has been so drilled into a person's mind that, when they read a particular Scripture that has been used to support the old idea in the past, they will still see the old idea when they read the Scripture again! It takes time and re-education to see that the Scripture could mean something else! It takes time and exposure to other positions for a person to discard an old position for a new! "Rome wasn't built in a day!" Most people are SHEEP and follow a leader. It takes a GREAT DEAL OF ENERGY to overcome the "sheep mentality" and strike out on their own to opt for a new position! Most don't even know where to begin! How does one begin such a journey?
Don't be so harsh. Be sympathetic and patient. One can continue to point to why he FEELS that the other person is making an error, but the patient person will provide OPTIONS.
Shalom, brother,Retrobyter said:
I agree with you for the most part, especially in the context of bible studies, but you can't approach the pulpit thinking that way (well actually you can, but people will be less inclined to believe you if your preaching is without conviction.)
10. As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11. If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 1 Peter 4:10-11
The proclamation of the word is more than just reading it aloud. I also believe that the gospel is worth fighting for (verbally) and that we are called to. Paul was not always kind with those who attacked the doctrines of grace:
11. And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12. I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! 13. For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. Galatians 5:11-13
to quote Stan Lee "'nuff said."
Thank you for the grace you demonstrate in such posts and I pray that we can all do likewise.
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