The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

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WPM

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No, it is NOT a lie. The Amill doctrine first began in the 2nd CENTURY A.D.

The 1st Century Church was Premill., which means Christ's Apostles and disciples were all Premill. That is why The New Testament teaches a premillennial return of Jesus Christ.

How deeply have you researched the ECFs?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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And you wonder why I have taken time out to actually study the early church fathers.
Well, I didn't wonder anymore after you explained it to me awhile back. I don't blame you for doing that and would never suggest that you shouldn't. It's just not my focus. I just don't personally have the same desire to do that, but I'm glad you do.

It is nonsense like this that caused me to do it.
Yes, I can fully understand that.

I wanted to establish the truth. I'm sick and tired of people making outlandish claims that were manifestly partial, unobjective and blatantly far from the truth.
Please continue to expose their lies. I have learned a good deal about them from you since you are actually a trustworthy source who backs up his claims by actually quoting what the ECFs wrote, unlike the liars we see on this forum. These liars just make things up that they can't back up.
 
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Davy

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Amills can quote numerous verses from the NT starting with the Lord Jesus himself, can premill?
If you would like to compare notes give me one clear statement Jesus made about Premill and then corroborate it with another. We will do the same.
What do you reckon Davy?
There are so... many Bible Scriptures that point to Lord Jesus Christ's coming at the end of this present world time than just what Jesus showed, even including in the Books of the Old Testament prophets. So your challenge isn't realistic at all. But if you want to know out of Jesus' Own mouth when He showed the timing of His future coming is, it is here...

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days,
after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

That "tribulation" is the "great tribulation" Jesus forewarned His faithful saints about for the very end of this world just prior to His future return.

That underlined part in verse 27 is a parallel to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 about Christ's faithful Church "caught up" to Jesus on that day.

And even in Revelation 16:15, Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is an idea He also covered in Matthew 24:42-44 about the thief showing the day of His coming will be a surprise upon many. Apostles Paul and Peter both taught that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and that is the timing Jesus was pointing to with His future coming. Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 showed that "day of the Lord" is the day that will literally end... this present world time with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth.

These are all very strong pointers that reveals Christ's future coming is before the millennial reign of Rev.20. The Revelation 20:1-6 verses are proof of Christ's future Millennial reign beginning right after the "great tribulation" at the end of this present world. The "image of the beast" is to be setup at the end of this present world we are in today, and it is pointing specifically to false worship of that specific beast image of the end of Rev.13 for the end of this present world.
 

jeffweeder

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There are so... many Bible Scriptures that point to Lord Jesus Christ's coming at the end of this present world time than just what Jesus showed, even including in the Books of the Old Testament prophets. So your challenge isn't realistic at all. But if you want to know out of Jesus' Own mouth when He showed the timing of His future coming is, it is here...

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days,
after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

That "tribulation" is the "great tribulation" Jesus forewarned His faithful saints about for the very end of this world just prior to His future return.

That underlined part in verse 27 is a parallel to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 about Christ's faithful Church "caught up" to Jesus on that day.

And even in Revelation 16:15, Jesus said He comes "as a thief", which is an idea He also covered in Matthew 24:42-44 about the thief showing the day of His coming will be a surprise upon many. Apostles Paul and Peter both taught that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and that is the timing Jesus was pointing to with His future coming. Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 showed that "day of the Lord" is the day that will literally end... this present world time with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth.

These are all very strong pointers that reveals Christ's future coming is before the millennial reign of Rev.20. The Revelation 20:1-6 verses are proof of Christ's future Millennial reign beginning right after the "great tribulation" at the end of this present world. The "image of the beast" is to be setup at the end of this present world we are in today, and it is pointing specifically to false worship of that specific beast image of the end of Rev.13 for the end of this present world.
That is not what I asked you. There is no mention of a millennial reign following his second coming.
Rather Jesus shows the opposite happening.

Mk 13
8 Pray that it will not occur in winter, 19 for at that time there will be such tribulation as has not occurred, from the beginning of the creation which God made, until now—and never will [be again]. 20 And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose [for Himself], He shortened the days.

Only the elect will be saved at his coming after the greatest of all tribulation that wipes out all but the saved, never to be repeated again.

Premill contradicts this and has billions like the sand of the seashore being wiped out again 1000 years after his second coming.
 

ewq1938

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That is not what I asked you. There is no mention of a millennial reign following his second coming.

Just have to read Rev 19-20 for that, and the last part of Rev 2 which also covers how the nations will be ruled over after the second coming. That is the thousand years.
 

ewq1938

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49. Did Paul say Revelation 20:4 already happened?


No.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Some Amillennialists believe these scriptures are speaking of the same thing as Revelation 20:4:


Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:



Paul wasn't literally sitting in heaven when he wrote that, nor was he beheaded, nor did he live again after being physically dead. The beheaded dead saints that come back to life and rule with Christ are not the ones who were sitting on the thrones. The two passages do not match at all aside from the mention of "sitting".


Revelation 20:4 is speaking of a physical resurrection of saved Christians. Ephesians 2:4-6 is speaking of formerly unsaved (spiritually dead) people accepting Christ and their souls being spiritually quickened resulting in them being saved by grace. Revelation 20:4 is what will physically happen to some of these Ephesians 2:4-6 saved people. It will be how they physically die. This will happen in the Great Tribulation which has not yet even started.

Don't confuse the physical resurrection of the physically dead in Revelation 20:4 with the spiritual conversion (being saved) of unbelievers becoming believers in any part of the bible. The two events are obviously not the same.
 

Davy

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That is not what I asked you. There is no mention of a millennial reign following his second coming.
Rather Jesus shows the opposite happening.

Mk 13
8 Pray that it will not occur in winter, 19 for at that time there will be such tribulation as has not occurred, from the beginning of the creation which God made, until now—and never will [be again]. 20 And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose [for Himself], He shortened the days.

Only the elect will be saved at his coming after the greatest of all tribulation that wipes out all but the saved, never to be repeated again.

Premill contradicts this and has billions like the sand of the seashore being wiped out again 1000 years after his second coming.
Nah, you're just playing games. What I quoted that Jesus said is a MUST REQUIREMENT to occur just prior to His future Millennial reign.

Sounds like you need to study up on Amillennialism. It does NOT believe in a "thousand years" reign when Jesus returns in the future. They believe the Millennium is NOW, TODAY.
 

jeffweeder

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Nah, you're just playing games. What I quoted that Jesus said is a MUST REQUIREMENT to occur just prior to His future Millennial reign.

Sounds like you need to study up on Amillennialism. It does NOT believe in a "thousand years" reign when Jesus returns in the future. They believe the Millennium is NOW, TODAY.
Who is playing games lol.
There is no mention of a future millennium following his coming in those passages, or any passage that deals with the second coming.

Take Matt 25:31-

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);



46 Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
 

ewq1938

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Who is playing games lol.
There is no mention of a future millennium following his coming in those passages, or any passage that deals with the second coming.


That's found in Rev 2, 19-20. What is not found in any portion of the bible is the Rev 20 millennium now or in the past followed by the second coming.
 
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Davy

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That is not what I asked you. There is no mention of a millennial reign following his second coming.
Rather Jesus shows the opposite happening.

Mk 13
8 Pray that it will not occur in winter, 19 for at that time there will be such tribulation as has not occurred, from the beginning of the creation which God made, until now—and never will [be again]. 20 And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose [for Himself], He shortened the days.

Only the elect will be saved at his coming after the greatest of all tribulation that wipes out all but the saved, never to be repeated again.

Premill contradicts this and has billions like the sand of the seashore being wiped out again 1000 years after his second coming.
Nah, you're just playing games. What I quoted that Jesus said is a MUST REQUIREMENT to occur just prior to His future Millennial reign.

Sounds like you need to study up on Amillennialism. It does NOT believe in a "thousand years" reign when Jesus returns in the future. They believe the Millennium is NOW, TODAY.
Who is playing games lol.
There is no mention of a future millennium following his coming in those passages, or any passage that deals with the second coming.

Take Matt 25:31-

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);



46 Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
Like I said, you playing games.

Christ's future "thousand years" is mentioned throughout The Bible. It OFTEN does not use the 'thousand years' numbering, but Christ's future reign IS... WHAT IT IS REFERRING TO. And I think you well know that, but would rather play games.

Ps 2:7-9
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
KJV


That "rod of iron" is mentioned by Jesus to the Church of Thyatira, which also gives pointers that is to happen only beginning with His future return.

Rev.19 also mentions Jesus reigning with that "rod of iron" over the nations in the future when He returns and defeats the devil's armies. And the beast and false prophet are then cast into the "lake of fire" at that point too. So we KNOW... that was not past history, nor for today, but still yet future when Jesus returns.

Immediately after that Rev.19 event, it speaks of Christ's "thousand years" reign, and those who refused the mark and image of the beast reigning WITH HIM with the "rod of iron", for a "thousand years"!

So there's plenty of Scripture evidence for Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect that does NOT depend upon that "thousand years" phrase.

Even the Zechariah 14 Chapter reveals the day of Christ's future coming and bringing all His saints with Him, to Jerusalem on earth, and His reign over all the nations, and even over the leftovers that came upon Jerusalem at the end of this world (Armageddon). The marker for that being the "thousand years" timing of Rev.20 is how those will be made to come up to Jerusalem ("from year to year"), and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles. It does not say a "thousand years" specifically, but "from year to year", and with how some nations then will still refuse to come up to worship, and because of that there will be no rain upon their lands. That shows in that future time of Christ's reign, some will still be a bit rebellious against Him. Well in the new heavens and a new earth time, those rebellious will no longer exist, so that's how we KNOW that time is NOT the new heavens and new earth that only comes after the wicked are all destroyed in the "lake of fire", along with hell and death.

Here is another proof that the "thousand years" of Rev.20 will be real...

Isa 24:20-23
20
The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit,
and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
KJV


The earth will reel to and fro on the "day of the Lord", the last day of this present world when Jesus returns. Then notice those 'kings of the earth' are locked in the prison, and after MANY DAYS shall be visited.

Per the start of Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, Satan is locked in his pit prison during the "thousand years". The above Isaiah 24 Scripture reveals not only Satan, but the kings of the earth (that followed Satan) will also... be locked in that pit prison "many days". It doesn't say "thousand years", but "many days" instead. The point is THAT is STILL pointing to the time AFTER Christ's future return at the end of this present world! It is supporting the "thousand years" period mentioned in Rev.20, even though a thousand years is not given here in Isaiah 24. And Christ's Book of Revelation, that is what it is given at the end for, as a revealing. So is that "thousand years" of Rev.20 not a revealing of this event here in Isaiah? You bet it is!!!
 

jeffweeder

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Nah, you're just playing games. What I quoted that Jesus said is a MUST REQUIREMENT to occur just prior to His future Millennial reign.

Sounds like you need to study up on Amillennialism. It does NOT believe in a "thousand years" reign when Jesus returns in the future. They believe the Millennium is NOW, TODAY.

Like I said, you playing games.

Christ's future "thousand years" is mentioned throughout The Bible. It OFTEN does not use the 'thousand years' numbering, but Christ's future reign IS... WHAT IT IS REFERRING TO. And I think you well know that, but would rather play games.
I bet it isn't. Just read Matt 25 and 2 Thess 1 that clearly spell it out for you.... and stop playing games. This you should know and understand.
 

Davy

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I bet it isn't. Just read Matt 25 and 2 Thess 1 that clearly spell it out for you.... and stop playing games. This you should know and understand.
Matthew 25 often points back to Christ's Olivet discourse signs in Matthew 24. So how you gonna' understand Matthew 25 when you haven't understood Matthew 24 first?

Now if you're referring to no mention of a 'thousand years' in the Matthew 25:31-41 verses, no matter, because Jesus gave the "thousand years" prophecy in His 'revealing', called His Book of Revelation. Now if you want to SCRAP Christ's Book of Revelation as if it never existed, when Lord Jesus gave it as a final 'revealing' of events prophesied about previously, then that's your choice. But I'll keep it in my Bible. So good luck if you think The Bible has to repeat itself in exact words throughout to be speaking of the same event. That's not how The Bible was given. God even gave a good amount of metaphor and analogy when speaking of a certain topic in different Bible books. It's amazing how many brethren still struggle with that even!

You also might want to checkout all of Zechariah 14 about the rebellious still existing after Christ's future return. See Isaiah 24 also. And notice what Jesus said in John 5:28-29 about the day of His future coming. The wicked are not destroyed with the "resurrection of damnation". That is a condition the unsaved will be in all throughout Christ's future thousand years reign.

So it's actually stupid to argue against Christ's future "thousand years" reign, there's so much Bible Scripture pointing to it.
 
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jeffweeder

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Matthew 25 often points back to Christ's Olivet discourse signs in Matthew 24.
I quoted Mk 13 to initially. you ignored it.
Now if you're referring to no mention of a 'thousand years' in the Matthew 25:31-41 verses, no matter, because Jesus gave the "thousand years" prophecy in His 'revealing', called His Book of Revelation.
Matt 25 has Jesus sitting in judgment AT HIS COMING. Rev has this judgment occuring after the millennium :contemplate:

Now if you want to SCRAP Christ's Book of Revelation as if it never existed, when Lord Jesus gave it as a final 'revealing' of events prophesied about previously, then that's your choice. But I'll keep it in my Bible. So good luck if you think The Bible has to repeat itself in exact words throughout to be speaking of the same event.
As you can see I am not scrapping anything like some people I know.

Rev 20 was previously taught in Jn 5.

Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. T

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years




The time now is for not coming into judgment. We have already passed from death to life and the second death is avoided.

 

Randy Kluth

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It is sometimes questioned whether Premillennialism was the early dominant position among the Church Fathers. Anybody with the ability to read can understand a quote from a renowned historian like Philip Schaff, who was *not* a Premil!

“... the most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism , that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment.”

I don't question the dominance of Amillennialism since the time of Origen and St. Augustine. Catholicism wished to see the Kingdom as certifiably established in its ecclesiastical structure. It was, it claimed, the new Israel! It was the new National Christianity, the religious state chosen by God, the Chosen Race. A future Kingdom was out of the question. Only a vague sense of Heaven remained, along with obscured readings of the Abrahamic Covenant.

But Amillennialism was built upon the disbelief in Israel's "resurrection" as a nation. And we can see that idea is already outmoded with the rebirth of the Israeli state in 1948. It is sometimes argued that Israel is more a pagan state than a godly state. Granted. But the Prophets predicted Israel would be reborn in a time when they are unworthy.

But to denounce Premills for believing in the biblical portrait of Israel's redemption, and to condemn Premills for simply believing in the Messianic Kingdom, in the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Promises, and in the literal rendering of Rev 20 seems over the pale. Why not let Christians be convinced by the Holy Spirit, rather than shamed as "unbelieving" in a formerly dominant Amil Theology?

Rom 14.4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand...
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
 
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ewq1938

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I quoted Mk 13 to initially. you ignored it.

Matt 25 has Jesus sitting in judgment AT HIS COMING. Rev has this judgment occuring after the millennium :contemplate:


As you can see I am not scrapping anything like some people I know.

Rev 20 was previously taught in Jn 5.

Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. T

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years




The time now is for not coming into judgment. We have already passed from death to life and the second death is avoided.


The scripture you posted also promises a time is coming for that which proves one day of judgment is a false teaching. Rev 20 has two days of judging and resurrection, one before the Mill and one after the Mill, which is fully Premill.
 
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Timtofly

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Matt 25 has Jesus sitting in judgment AT HIS COMING. Rev has this judgment occuring after the millennium.
No, Jesus does not sit on the GWT. God does. Jesus sits on His glorious throne in Jerusalem.

The GWT extends from earth to heaven hundreds of miles high like the New Jerusalem. It has been there since creation.

The throne in Jerusalem will not happen until Jesus actually arrives to the Mount of Olives and changes the geographical arrangement of the area around Jerusalem so His new throne and temple will fit. Zechariah 14.
 

ewq1938

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(Each of these issues have been presented in threads in various forums by people who believe in Amillennialism. These may or may not be held by every individual of that doctrine.)

Each person who believes in Amillennialism is a good person with good intent regarding scriptural interpretation but Premillennialism very much disagrees with their doctrine, their way of interpretation, and their exegesis of various scriptures. In this list you will see the many problems contained within Amillennialism.



50. The two prophets that are slain in Jerusalem in Revelation 11 are John the Baptist and Jesus?

Related to number 15, this is yet another absolutely unscriptural and impossible theory.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

1. Jesus did not lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 and a half days. He died outside of the city walls and was buried near the end of that day.
2. Jesus is mentioned in verse 8 so he cannot be either of these two prophets.
3. John the Baptist can't be one of them either since he was buried the same day he died, Matthew 14:12.
4. John the Baptist died in a prison, not in the streets of Jerusalem, Mark 6:27.
 

Randy Kluth

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(Each of these issues have been presented in threads in various forums by people who believe in Amillennialism. These may or may not be held by every individual of that doctrine.)

Each person who believes in Amillennialism is a good person with good intent regarding scriptural interpretation but Premillennialism very much disagrees with their doctrine, their way of interpretation, and their exegesis of various scriptures. In this list you will see the many problems contained
Sorry, I don't believe that all Amills here are "good people." Some of them are, others are not. There are such a thing as "bad Christians." Read Paul in 1 and 2 Corinthians. You'll discover the problem Paul had with bad Christians.

Just because some here can quote the Scriptures here backwards and forwards, and give the spiritual sense of God's word, does not mean they live out what they know for themselves. Many use the Scriptures as a sword to do harm to others, thinking they're doing service to God. They should understand that our weapons are not to be carnal, but are to be for the purpose for which God intended and with the accompanying good character.
 

ewq1938

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Sorry, I don't believe that all Amills here are "good people." Some of them are, others are not. There are such a thing as "bad Christians." Read Paul in 1 and 2 Corinthians. You'll discover the problem Paul had with bad Christians.

I don't want to alienate anyone who might truly be open to hearing new things. There's good and bad attitudes and behavior on both sides but I try to focus on the doctrines and not the people.
 

Davy

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I quoted Mk 13 to initially. you ignored it.
Mark 13 is simply Apostle Mark's version of Christ's Olivet discourse. It gives some specific info that Matthew 24 doesn't, but the majority of it is the SAME witness as Matthew 24. So your 'beef' is not justified.

Matt 25 has Jesus sitting in judgment AT HIS COMING. Rev has this judgment occuring after the millennium :contemplate:
The 'separation' of Christ's sheep from the goats at His coming happens on the 'day of His return', PRIOR to the "thousand years". It is NOT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT.

Just because that Matthew 25 separation of the sheep and goats does not specifically mention the "thousand years" of Rev.20 does not mean it is not there in Matthew 25! In that Matthew 25 Scripture, Lord Jesus simply did NOT give ALL THE DETAIL. It's as simple as that.

And BECAUSE... Jesus DID give more detail about that time in His Book of Revelation, in Revelation 20, that means what? It means that "thousand years" He revealed in Rev.20 MUST BE UNDERSTOOD WITH THAT MATTHEW 25 SCRIPTURE. Haven't you ever heard of an UPDATE? That is what Christ's Book of Revelation is, a REVEALING, which is what the title means.

Sorry I feel like I have to stress what I'm saying, simply because what you are proposing is such a whacked way to view God's Word.


As you can see I am not scrapping anything like some people I know.

Rev 20 was previously taught in Jn 5.

Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

Without being bodily resurrected we have confidence that we will not come under the judgment. T

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years

The time now is for not coming into judgment. We have already passed from death to life and the second death is avoided.
Well, you have MISSED understanding what Lord Jesus said there in John 5 also. I have to assume your preacher you listen to is misleading you, or you are misleading yourself...

John 5:24-29
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


That above is about those who 'believe' on The Father and The Son Jesus Christ. Those who remain faithful in Christ Jesus will not be subject to condemnation. Simple.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Why did you MISS that "and now is" timing Jesus gave there? What's that about? Well, what happened when He gave up the ghost on His cross per Matthew 27:50-53? That is the time He was pointing to, NOT the future resurrection that will happen at His future return.

26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.


Below is pointing to a LATER TIMING...

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


That above is where Jesus pointed to His future return on the "last day" of this world, when the future resurrection will happen. You do have a future resurrection event in your theology per God's Word, don't you?

At His future return, that is that hour that is coming when the dead are raised either to the "resurrection of life", or to the "resurrection of damnation". Those unto Life means those "asleep" saints Apostle Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He returns, per 1 Thess.4. Surely you know about that.