A Systematic Study of the Rapture through the use of Bible Scriptures

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thekingdomkeys

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Retrobyter, thanks for chiming in on the "Day of Christ" / "Day of the Lord" discussion. We are still trying to work on the ground rules for this debate discussion on the "rapture" (read the postings on the 2nd page), but hopefully we will get into this debate shortly. Once the doctrinal debate starts, we will get back to your posting.
thekingdomkeys

Go to it, boys! I am praying about it, that God will help you all speak civilly and that peace will reign in this discussion.

Thanks Lively Stone, I don't care if I am wrong or right on this doctrine (the "rapture"), since I am not dogmatic to the things within God's Word. I want to know God's truth, not my perception of God's truth. If that means that the books that I have read are teaching falsely, and the pastor of the church that I visit weekly is teaching falsely on the doctrine, so be it ...I can change churches right? This is my prayer, that we can all have a civil debate on the doctrine and let God's truth in His scriptures prevail! We need to be willing to through away our biases on this (and all) doctrine if the scriptures dictate change. Let's all agree to not be dogmatic ...that is what the enemy would have us to be! If we are right, fine ...and if we are wrong fine! We have to be willing to say we are/were wrong ...or that we made a mistake! Isn't that what the Christian life is supposed to be all about? Let's let love rule our conversation. Let's not let "knowledge" rule over us and cause us to get all puffed up! That is my prayer and I hope that it is the prayer of all of you!

Thanks for your prayers Lively Stone.
thekingdomkeys
 

veteran

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My Rebuttal:

Definition of the “Rapture”:
I believe in the traditional meaning of the word “rapture”, which represents a pre, mid, or post tribulation event (being “caught up”) rather than a timeframe (pre-tribulation rapture) like you guys believe. Thus, I not am able to state that the “rapture” is a false doctrine, are you with me here so far Veteran? For it can’t represent a false doctrine, if the word merely denotes when (pre, mid, post) the event will occur, rather than exclusively representing a fixed pre-tribulation rapture as you guys claim.

There's a difference between the argument of the origin of the word rapture per linguistics vs. how that word has been used to represent various theological positions about the time of our gathering to Christ at His coming. The word rapture itself originates from the Latin 'rapere'. The actual manuscript Greek word is 'harpazo' (to sieze). The Latin Vulgate used a form of the word 'rapere' for it's Latin translation of Greek 'harpazo'. Quite a few English Bible translations chose to not use the Latin derived word from rapere (like rapture), but tried to make a more direct translation from Greek 'harpazo' instead, like "caught up" (which still is only a fair English translation of Greek harpazo at best).

It is true that the Latin usage of 'rapere' for Greek 'harpazo' is a fairly accurate translation into Latin. But English is not Latin. So a derived word like 'rapture' from Latin 'rapere' does not represent an accurate translation into English for Greek 'harpazo'. If it had, then English Bible translators would have used the word rapture instead of the phrase "caught up". Thus the KJV, RSV, ASV, TLB, and even NIV, etc., use the phrase "caught up" for Greek 'harpazo'.

Since the word 'rapture' was only sparingly introduced into the English language by the 14th century, it had not been a commonly understood word in English (another reason for the English Bible translators of the Tyndale, Bishop's Bible, KJV, etc., to stay away from it. Even the later NIV translators must have still agreed on this point, since they also stayed away from using 'rapture' to translate Greek 'harpazo' into English).

Then later, in the 1800's, enters the popular theological usage of the word 'rapture' with Edward Irving, John Nelson Darby, and the Plymouth Brethren movements. Tregelles' study of the origins of a Secret Rapture idea traced Darby's idea of a secret rapture back to Edward Irving.

That's actually when the word 'rapture' became populary used to define a theological position of being 'secretly' raptured by Christ prior to the tribulation. That's when a specific 'timeframe'... was first popularly linked to its usage by John Darby, and then later by Blackstone and in the Scofield Reference Bible, etc.

Thus it is OK, and very desireable, to interpret the usage of the word 'rapture' as intending the idea of John Darby's theory of a secret rapture prior to the tribulation, for that's really the main theological idea the term 'rapture' became used for. Those like Tregelles in the late 1820's distinguished Darby's secret rapture idea as a pre-tribulational secret gathering, which became known as a 'pre-tribulation rapture' position.

Some suggest the word 'rapture' was used earlier than Irving, like John Gill, to represent a pre-millennial rapture of the saints, when what Gill was describing was Paul's description of the one 'caught up' to the 'third heaven' per 2 Cor.12, which definitely was not about the event of Christ gathering His Church. Thus the position that made the word 'rapture' popular falls back to Irving and Darby's early 1800's usage of it with a pre-tribulational secret rapture idea. Since the Pre-trib School's attempt to distance itself from Darby's secret idea for a pre-trib rapture, they have been using the sole word Rapture by itself.

So the common sense point remains, one must be careful to distinguish just what timeframe of the Church's gathering at Christ's coming they are speaking of if they're going to use that word 'rapture'. One cannot solely rely on that 'rapture' word standing alone by itself and be accurate with what context 'harpazo' is meant in the Scripture about the gathering of the Church by Christ at His coming. One will even be more... successful in defining the timeframe by not... using that word 'rapture' at all, since it was first popularly used for the pre-tribulation secret rapture position. This is why those who disagree with the pre-trib idea often use the term 'post-tribulational rapture', but that has caused much confusion because of how that word rapture had been popularly used in the past by Darby, Scofield, etc.


If one does a Google search on the Internet on the phrase “post tribulation rapture” 81 pages of webpages comes up. That’s a lot of pages for a nonevent isn’t it Veteran?

I don't pretend to support Biblical positions with how many web pages come up based on term searches. That's an irrelevant argument.


Wikipedia even devotes a webpage (http://en.wikipedia....ulation_Rapture) to this topic/event/doctrine. There are tons of books written about the “post tribulation rapture” topic/event/doctrine. Even most of the “pre-tribulation rapture” books mention the “post tribulation rapture” camp in their writings!

How about an online dictionary (see below)? All of the online dictionaries state the “rapture” as a doctrine! Not one of them claim the “rapture” to be a “false doctrine”. And not only that, the example listed below actually states the “rapture” will take place at the time of Christ’s return to earth (the Second Coming)! So excuse me Veteran, if I disagree with 3 or 4 guys (from this forum) definition of what the “rapture” is! What gives you guys the right?

You're free to disagree all you want. But it won't change how that word 'rapture' never was popularly used to define the timeframe of our gathering and Christ's coming until Irving and Darby's usage of it in the 1800's. And by them it was used to point to a secret coming by Christ to gather His Church prior to the tribulation. The false popular historical usage of the term 'rapture' and false timeframe of our gathering and Christ's coming it was popularly used for, gives us the right and duty in Christ... to be more specific, JUST AS HIS WORD is more specific on the timeframe (after the tribulation).

I omitted your pasted rapture definition, since it does nothing in helping to understand how it has been popularly used in theological circles. Others can look it up as they see fit.


Rapture, Theology . the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth.

I don’t know what else I can say to defend my position here Veteran, I believe that the preponderance of evidence is on my side on what the definition of the “rapture” is. I have cited eschatology books, Wikipedia, 81 website pages and even online dictionaries …what else can I say? I believe that you guys are wrong for trying to change the traditional meaning of the word “rapture” and have no justification for doing such a thing!

You're throwing out unrelated ideas here, so I'm having to separate your multiple arguments. What have you actually proven with that evidence you propose? Not really much. All it suggests one do is to go out on the Internet and search through 81 or more pages of God knows what just to try and define the meaning of the word 'rapture', which would only cause more confusion upon those not Biblically learned about this matter.

Once again, the 'traditional meaning' of the word 'rapture' was set... by it's popular usage, and that was by Edward Irving and John Darby with their pre-tribulational secret rapture theory in the 1800's. The many English Bible translators didn't use the term, which should reveal something to you of how they understood it as a confusing term, and not one that really defines our gathering to Christ at His coming. Even with Greek 'harpazo' which is... written in the New Testament manuscripts, it must have help to properly understand it in the proper Bible context of that singular event, especially because of its usage in 2 Cor.12 and Acts 8:39.


And this is my thread, not yours Veteran, and I think I have the right to use the word “rapture” under it’s traditional definition, over some new definition that you guys are trying to establish! If you want to discuss the doctrine of the “caught up” without using the word “rapture” start your own thread! And if I participate in your thread, I will honor your definition of the word over the dictionaries definition of the word, ha, ha (how silly!).

If you haven't noticed yet, not I, nor anyone else here has tried to re-define the 'traditional usage' of that term 'rapture'. Our flags we've thrown up is how others intend to re-define its traditonal usage away... from how Darby made it a popular term in the 1800's for a pre-tribulational secret gathering.


But having said all of that, the “rapture” is a non-Biblical word (as you guys continually point out, ha, ha) so neither side can use scripture to support/prove their stances. So because of that, I still contend that it is silly to even continue the debate over the meaning of the word “rapture”. And besides all of that, it is even a moot issue, since I have repeatedly stated to you Veteran, that I am willing to stop using the term “rapture” (under one condition) in this thread for the phrase “caught up” or the word “gathering” if that will make you happy Veteran. I want you to be happy Veteran, ha, ha. Don’t you want to be happy? Why don’t we all agree to disagree on this one Veteran and move on? Fair enough?

It's not silly to point out how it came into popular usage by Darby. And because of how it's still used by those of Darby's doctrine today, and has many believers confused, that's enough to warrant investigation to clear away the confusion. I have no problem NOT using it, and rarely do.
 

veteran

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False Accusations” and “Presumptions:
Thekingdomkeys: On the subject of “false accusations”, “presumptions” and …. let me start off by giving you kudos and credit for an excellent (civil discourse in Christ’s love) first posting in this thread, when discussing the meaning of the phrases “Day of Christ” and “Day of the Lord” (directly below):
....

Glad you understood it.


Thekingdomkeys:
Your first post (directly above) was excellent Veteran!!! You proved you could debate in Christ’s love under civil discourse! You stated your position on the first 2 terms (“Day of Christ” and “Day of the Lord”), that you believed that both days represented the same “day” and the same “event” …the time of Jesus’ Second Coming. If your posts would have remained civil like your first one, we would not be having this discussion right now! But unfortunately, things changed after your first posting.

OK Veteran let me cite some of your “false accusations”, “presumptions” and …. and let’s let the folks of this forum be our judges. Fair enough? Additionally look at your “tone” of delivery and the disparaging verbiage …was it delivered in love? Where’s the love Veteran, where’s the love?

False Accusations:
Veteran: “Where have I called you names, or made false accusations?”

Thekingdomkeys: I’m glad that you have asked, shall we begin?

Thekingdomkeys: “what I would like to do in this thread at this time, is to throw out some terms ...some Bible phrases to see if we all agree or disagree that these terms coincide with the "rapture". And if we agree, then I will add some more terms and so forth and so on, until we have a list of terms related to the timing of the rapture.” (quotation from my first posting in this thread)
“OK, I'm going to throw out the first two terms …the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord” (quotation from my first posting in this thread)


“Let's see if we can begin to paint a picture of the timing of the "rapture" through these “Day of Christ” / “Day of the Lord” verses. Most of the pre-trib rapture folks believe there are 2 “Days”, the first for the ‘rapture’ and the second for ‘Christ’s Second Coming’. Many of these people claim that the rapture is the “Day of Christ” and the Second Coming (after the tribulation) is the “Day of the Lord”. It is our job as Bible students, to determine if this is true or false.”

Veteran: “Wait just a minute. No one can be just in pulling out a couple of phrases from God's Word and try to isolate them from the rest

Thekingdomkeys: Hello Veteran, I am not trying to "pull out a couple of phrases from God's Word and try to isolate them from the rest" as you have stated.

Veteran:Sure you did. No sense in denying in now, everyone seeing this thread has seen you already try to do just that.

You stated the following at the very first, which is pretty obvious to me the idea of trying to isolate Bible phrases...

You said:
"OK, I'm going to throw out the first two terms, and let's debate whether or not they represent the time of the rapture or not. We don't have to agree that they represent the time of the rapture - for maybe they don't. We all need to prove one way or another whether these terms represent the time of the rapture or not. No matter which side you take, please use scriptures to support your bias (belief system).

OK, let's start with two Biblical phrases:

The Day of Christ

and

The Day of the Lord

Are either one or both of these Biblical days referring to the time of the Rapture? Yes or No? Use scriptures to support your stance.

I attempted to tell everyone that this (these first 2 phrases) would just be the start of this study in this thread. I said (in so many words) that we would glean as much as we could out of those 2 phrases and then add new phrases to the mix, didn’t I? So I object to you stating that I am limiting this study to 2 phrases."

When someone does that, isolating two phrases out of God's Word like that, it suggests to me one not interested in giving the full weight of the Scripture which such phrases are found in, in Biblical context. It is... a method often used to get away... from Biblical context. That's why I raised a red flag. Sorry if you did not intend it that way, but that's how I took it, particularly since you were not declaring your Biblical position.


Thekingdomkeys:
Below you seem to be implying (accusing me) that I am a “false prophet” and a “deceiver” based on your definition of the word “rapture” and your presumption of what you believe my stance is on the doctrine of the “rapture”. This name calling has got to stop!

Veteran:That Matt.24 example is never going to be enough for the false prophets who intend to falsify His Word in order to deceive.

Thekingdomkeys: “I would be careful on who you are calling "false prophets" Veteran. If other Christians in this forum (or elsewhere) differ from your understanding of this doctrine and believe the opposite viewpoint that does not make them a "false prophet".”

Veteran:That I am... very careful of. I don't throw it out unless I really... mean it, just so you know. Those behind the Pre-trib doctrines are indeed... false prophets. Want me to say that again for you?

And that's very true, those behind the pre-trib doctrines are false prophets, Edward irving, Darby, Blackstone, Scofield, LaHaye, etc. It's because of denial of the Matt.24:29-31 order as given by Christ in that Scripture, along with many other Scripture denials on the matter, in order to preach something else not written. If you weren't doing that then you shouldn't have felt it applied to you. But if it did, or does apply, then if the shoes fits...


Thekingdomkeys:
“At this point in time I don't even want to tell anyone my stance on when I believe the "rapture" will take place. I don't want to muddy up those waters at this time.” (quotation from my very first posting in this thread)

Veteran:And there's one Scripture you forgot... Rev 16:12-17”
Thekingdomkeys: Again you were being presumptuous, since I never stated that I was giving you and all inclusive list of the word “thief”. In fact I stated just the opposite, that I have added the next phrase and you guys can now begin to introduce other “thief” passages to the mix:

Not presumptuous, since it was based on your stated intention to add the "as a thief" phrase, and then your random posting of various Scriptures to end that post with no attempt at explanation of them.


Thekingdomkeys:
“I have also added the next phrase (“thief”) to our painted picture as well. At this time, we can now introduce other "thief" passages to the mix, as long as they are referring to the time of the "Day" of His Coming.”

And there it is.


Thekingdomkeys:
Below you are presuming that you know what Biblical stance I take on the doctrine of the “rapture”. You believe that I believe in a “pre-tribulation rapture” and you might be correct, but you are being presumptuous, since I have yet to state my stance on this particular doctrine!

Veteran:All those Scriptures agree on the same one-time event of Christ's return, and the gathering of His saints. It's like I said in my first post here. Christ coming "as a thief" is the same time as "the day of the Lord" events.”

Why does our Lord Jesus given that warning of His coming "as a thief" again in between those 6th and 7th vials? Simple. Because His coming and gathering of His Church still on earth at that 6th vial timing has not happened yet! In other words, no rapture yet, not even by the time of the 6th vial.

It only reveals your lack of comment on the subject matter, and more instead about your feelings being hurt.


Thekingdomkeys:
More presumptions below Veteran. Where have I stated one way or another that I thought that Matthew 24:29-31 isn’t enough to determine theBiblical order of His coming”? Again, this is my thread Veteran (not yours) and I should be given the liberty to decide how I want to attack the study of this doctrine!

Veteran:But just HOW MANY Scriptures proofs does one need to grasp the true Biblical order of His coming and our gathering? Why wouldn't the Matthew 24:29-31 verses be enough for a believer on Christ Jesus, since they are direct statements by our Lord Jesus Himself?

And I still... ask you that. Just how many Scripture proofs for the order of Christ's coming and our gathering does one need to believe it as written? My point? How much debate over this matter is really necessary? How much pointed coverage of phrases from select Scriptures are necessary? If one is determined to not believe them as written in their simplicity, then no amount of coverage is going to convince them to heed it as written. Most likely God has blinded them for His purposes.


Thekingdomkeys:
More presumptions below without any evidence to back them up:

Veteran:You're slowly revealing to us just what persuasion your are of, and it does not appear to be Christ's coming and our gathering after the tribulation He directly stated in Matt.24:29-31!

Veteran: “Who cares if folks call it the Rapture?" "Those who stand in God's Holy Writ care, which should include yourself if you claim to have believed on Jesus Christ as your Saviour. Do you claim Christ Jesus as The Saviour, and your Saviour? If so, then why wouldn't you want to heed what He said in Matt.24:29-31 about the order of His coming and our gathering to Him instead of trying to play off of some fake semantics idea?

Yep, right off the bat why wouldn't a believer want to heed that Scripture as written? If you still had wanted to be careful to not reveal your stance, you still could have deferred the matter another way instead of being mysterious. Maybe you don't realize what image you invoke with how you had asked for input from the start, and then put it on a shelf without giving a proper Scriptural response, but instead treating this thread like some game show.

Not a positive image for a Christian brother, I find it insulting. And that's why now I'm adding you to my ignore list.
 

Lively Stone

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thekingdomkeys

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My Rebuttal:



There's a difference between the argument of the origin of the word rapture per linguistics vs. how that word has been used to represent various theological positions about the time of our gathering to Christ at His coming. The word rapture itself originates from the Latin 'rapere'. The actual manuscript Greek word is 'harpazo' (to sieze). The Latin Vulgate used a form of the word 'rapere' for it's Latin translation of Greek 'harpazo'. Quite a few English Bible translations chose to not use the Latin derived word from rapere (like rapture), but tried to make a more direct translation from Greek 'harpazo' instead, like "caught up" (which still is only a fair English translation of Greek harpazo at best).

It is true that the Latin usage of 'rapere' for Greek 'harpazo' is a fairly accurate translation into Latin. But English is not Latin. So a derived word like 'rapture' from Latin 'rapere' does not represent an accurate translation into English for Greek 'harpazo'. If it had, then English Bible translators would have used the word rapture instead of the phrase "caught up". Thus the KJV, RSV, ASV, TLB, and even NIV, etc., use the phrase "caught up" for Greek 'harpazo'.

Since the word 'rapture' was only sparingly introduced into the English language by the 14th century, it had not been a commonly understood word in English (another reason for the English Bible translators of the Tyndale, Bishop's Bible, KJV, etc., to stay away from it. Even the later NIV translators must have still agreed on this point, since they also stayed away from using 'rapture' to translate Greek 'harpazo' into English).

Then later, in the 1800's, enters the popular theological usage of the word 'rapture' with Edward Irving, John Nelson Darby, and the Plymouth Brethren movements. Tregelles' study of the origins of a Secret Rapture idea traced Darby's idea of a secret rapture back to Edward Irving.

That's actually when the word 'rapture' became populary used to define a theological position of being 'secretly' raptured by Christ prior to the tribulation. That's when a specific 'timeframe'... was first popularly linked to its usage by John Darby, and then later by Blackstone and in the Scofield Reference Bible, etc.

Thus it is OK, and very desireable, to interpret the usage of the word 'rapture' as intending the idea of John Darby's theory of a secret rapture prior to the tribulation, for that's really the main theological idea the term 'rapture' became used for. Those like Tregelles in the late 1820's distinguished Darby's secret rapture idea as a pre-tribulational secret gathering, which became known as a 'pre-tribulation rapture' position.

Some suggest the word 'rapture' was used earlier than Irving, like John Gill, to represent a pre-millennial rapture of the saints, when what Gill was describing was Paul's description of the one 'caught up' to the 'third heaven' per 2 Cor.12, which definitely was not about the event of Christ gathering His Church. Thus the position that made the word 'rapture' popular falls back to Irving and Darby's early 1800's usage of it with a pre-tribulational secret rapture idea. Since the Pre-trib School's attempt to distance itself from Darby's secret idea for a pre-trib rapture, they have been using the sole word Rapture by itself.

So the common sense point remains, one must be careful to distinguish just what timeframe of the Church's gathering at Christ's coming they are speaking of if they're going to use that word 'rapture'. One cannot solely rely on that 'rapture' word standing alone by itself and be accurate with what context 'harpazo' is meant in the Scripture about the gathering of the Church by Christ at His coming. One will even be more... successful in defining the timeframe by not... using that word 'rapture' at all, since it was first popularly used for the pre-tribulation secret rapture position. This is why those who disagree with the pre-trib idea often use the term 'post-tribulational rapture', but that has caused much confusion because of how that word rapture had been popularly used in the past by Darby, Scofield, etc.




I don't pretend to support Biblical positions with how many web pages come up based on term searches. That's an irrelevant argument.




You're free to disagree all you want. But it won't change how that word 'rapture' never was popularly used to define the timeframe of our gathering and Christ's coming until Irving and Darby's usage of it in the 1800's. And by them it was used to point to a secret coming by Christ to gather His Church prior to the tribulation. The false popular historical usage of the term 'rapture' and false timeframe of our gathering and Christ's coming it was popularly used for, gives us the right and duty in Christ... to be more specific, JUST AS HIS WORD is more specific on the timeframe (after the tribulation).

I omitted your pasted rapture definition, since it does nothing in helping to understand how it has been popularly used in theological circles. Others can look it up as they see fit.




You're throwing out unrelated ideas here, so I'm having to separate your multiple arguments. What have you actually proven with that evidence you propose? Not really much. All it suggests one do is to go out on the Internet and search through 81 or more pages of God knows what just to try and define the meaning of the word 'rapture', which would only cause more confusion upon those not Biblically learned about this matter.

Once again, the 'traditional meaning' of the word 'rapture' was set... by it's popular usage, and that was by Edward Irving and John Darby with their pre-tribulational secret rapture theory in the 1800's. The many English Bible translators didn't use the term, which should reveal something to you of how they understood it as a confusing term, and not one that really defines our gathering to Christ at His coming. Even with Greek 'harpazo' which is... written in the New Testament manuscripts, it must have help to properly understand it in the proper Bible context of that singular event, especially because of its usage in 2 Cor.12 and Acts 8:39.




If you haven't noticed yet, not I, nor anyone else here has tried to re-define the 'traditional usage' of that term 'rapture'. Our flags we've thrown up is how others intend to re-define its traditonal usage away... from how Darby made it a popular term in the 1800's for a pre-tribulational secret gathering.




It's not silly to point out how it came into popular usage by Darby. And because of how it's still used by those of Darby's doctrine today, and has many believers confused, that's enough to warrant investigation to clear away the confusion. I have no problem NOT using it, and rarely do.


Sorry Veteran, I am 55 years old and I have participated in many debates over the years on the doctrine of the "rapture". Many of these debates were 30 years or more ago and nobody ...absolutely nobody (even Baptist King James Scofield Bible folks) ever questioned the traditional use of the word "rapture" representing 3 possible timeframes (pre, mid, or post). And since I still disagree with you on your definition and since this is my thread, I will continue to use the word “rapture” as it is seen in every eschatology book that I have ever read, in pages upon pages of Internet webpages, encyclopedias and dictionaries, over your version of the definition of “rapture”.
thekingdomkeys
 

thekingdomkeys

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Thekingdomkeys: “Your first post was excellent Veteran!!! You proved you could debate in Christ’s love under civil discourse! You stated your position on the first 2 terms (“Day of Christ” and “Day of the Lord”), that you believed that both days represented the same “day” and the same “event” …the time of Jesus’ Second Coming. If your posts would have remained civil like your first one, we would not be having this discussion right now! But unfortunately, things changed after your first posting.”
Veteran: “Glad you understood it.”
Thekingdomkeys: It had nothing to do with understanding it or not understanding it, or agreeing with it or disagreeing with it. I was trying to give you a compliment believe it or not (maybe you’re not used to receiving them?). I was trying to point out that you were able to engage in civil discourse (Christ’s love) in your first post of this thread. If only you were able to continue in the mode that you began.



Veteran: “You stated the following at the very first, which is pretty obvious to me the idea of trying to isolate Bible phrases... You said:”
"OK, I'm going to throw out the first two terms, and let's debate whether or not they represent the time of the rapture or not. We don't have to agree that they represent the time of the rapture - for maybe they don't. We all need to prove one way or another whether these terms represent the time of the rapture or not. No matter which side you take, please use scriptures to support your bias (belief system).”

Thekingdomkeys: You are totally taking what I said out of context Veteran, aren’t you? Is this what you do with the Bible too, when you are attempting to make your points? Notice folks that Veteran takes one of my quotes out of context (directly above) by only quoting a partial section, in his failed attempt to try to make it match his false accusations towards me! Remember he is accusing me of trying to defend a doctrinal position on the “rapture” by only using one set of termsDay of Christ” / “Day of the Lord”. But if the readers of this forum will read my reseeding paragraph (from the first post of this thread) directly below, you’ll see that I clearly stated that I wouldadd some more terms … until we have a list of terms”. Nowhere did I state that I would only use a couple of terms to isolate Bible phrases! Notice also on the first page of this thread that Veteran was the first person to respond to my thread and he did not mention anything about me trying to isolate Bible phrases at that time …he didn’t bring it up until a later post. If it bothered him so much, why did he wait so long to bring it up to me?

Thekingdomkeys: “At this point in time I don't even want to tell anyone my stance on when I believe the "rapture" will take place. I don't want to muddy up those waters at this time. But what I would like to do in this thread at this time, is to throw out some terms ...some Bible phrases to see if we all agree or disagree that these terms coincide with the "rapture". And if we agree, then I will add some more terms and so forth and so on, until we have a list of terms related to the timing of the rapture. Once we have a list of terms that the vast majority (those that aren't dogmatic) can agree with in regards to coinciding with the rapture, then we should be able to begin to paint a picture of when the rapture will actually take place. In other words, let's pursue this debate a little differently, let's begin this study with what we can agree upon rather than what we disagree upon!

OK, I'm going to throw out the first two terms, and let's debate whether or not they represent the time of the rapture or not. We don't have to agree that they represent the time of the rapture - for maybe they don't. We all need to prove one way or another whether these terms represent the time of the rapture or not. No matter which side you take, please use scriptures to support your bias (belief system).”




Thekingdomkeys: As far as the rest of your chimes in your last post, where you attempted to deny your false accusations and presumptions, you have just added more “false accusations” and “presumptions” to the original ones, so it seems pointless for me to continue to comment on them. But I will comment on your last entry:

Veteran: “Not a positive image for a Christian brother, I find it insulting. And that's why now I'm adding you to my ignore list.”

Thekingdomkeys: “Not a positive image for a Christian brother, I find it insulting”. The forum readers can see what we each wrote and I will let them decide which one of us best exemplifies “a positive image for a Christian brother”.

“…I'm adding you to my ignore list.” Now concerning you adding me to your “ignore list”, I think that is a good idea. Everyone that reads this post has seen that you wrote that and I expect you to keep your word! If you are going to “ignore” me that mean that you won’t be writing more posts in this thread and that also means that you won’t be able to hijack this thread anymore. Sounds good to me and you better honor your word.

Now that we finally got the situation between me and Veteran resolved here folks, we should be able to finally begin our Word study on the “rapture”.
thekingdomkeys
 

TWC

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I think I know where this thread is headed.

Jude 1:17-23
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.


** Note here that Paul was the author of the following passages**


2 Timothy 3:1-5

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.


2 Timothy 3-5

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.



A quote from Christ, Himself:


Matthew 24:4-13


Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.



To verify the Greek word for "turn away" (or "fall away"), is translated properly, here's another example: (The word is "skandalisthesontai")


Matthew 26:31-35

Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:


“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’
But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.”
Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.”
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”
But Peter declared, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the other disciples said the same.



The first instance in verse 31 is the same Greek word but in a different form. However, the term used for Peter's reply (the part in bold) is the exact same word used in Jesus' quote about many turning away from the faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

The word in question is "apostasia". I apologize to the OP if this was not his intention, but I believe that the purpose of this thread as a "word study" is to argue that this term, apostasia, is the pretribulation rapture. However, we know that there will be a falling away from the faith in the end times. There's no reason to create an entirely new scenario when one already fitting the passage clearly exists.
 

Lively Stone

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There is one aspect to the word 'rapture' that I learned a while ago from who knows where, but it was extremely eye-opening. Of course we know that the word rapture signifies a seizing or a catching away of something, right? Well, the context of the word is usually used in putting across the meaning of seizing something that it rightfully one's own---something that belongs to the one who is doing the taking.

I found that to be truly important in my understanding that Jesus the Bridegroom, in keeping with the Jewish wedding model, will catch away His Bride, who is rightfully His and take her to His abode to marry her.

Love it!
 

thekingdomkeys

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A Systematic Study of the Rapture through the use of Bible Scriptures
OK folks, we can finally begin to get into this study on the “rapture” in this thread. Sorry for the major interruption and delay, but until or unless we worked that out, I had no interest at all in going forward with this study. Remember, one of my prerequisite ground rules was that we all operated in “civil discourse”, and I meant it. I’m not saying that we can’t have heated debate, there is nothing wrong with that …I just insist that we be respectful of each other in the process. And let’s have fun, be sarcastic if you desire to make your point that way, but please let’s stop the name calling, false accusations and being presumptuous. During this study, laugh at others only if you are also willing to laugh at yourself! Let’s let the Lord lead this study rather relying solely on our ideas and our preconceived notions. If we make mistakes or discover that we are wrong on an idea or a scripture. Let’s fess up! Let’s be willing to say ‘I am sorry’ or ‘I was wrong’ or ‘I don’t know’. Let’s not let pride take hold of us. Below is how the study was initially introduced:

“I am a new member of this forum and I know that you guys have created quite a few threads on the subject of the "Rapture" (being "caught up" to God), but I would like to start a new thread on the "Rapture" done in a little bit different fashion. I am hoping that we can dive into the subject matter with prayer and open-mindedness to such a degree that we can have a civil discourse and ultimately study to show ourselves approved and come to an overall consensus on the subject. I believe it is possible for Christians to learn the answers to all of the doctrines of the Bible, if we trust in the Lord, study to show ourselves approved and pray for answers to all of the questions put before us. Is it God's desire for us to know His Word and to know truth, or would He prefer that we remain ignorant of these things? Do you guys agree with this assessment? After all, there are only about 60 or 65 major doctrines in the Bible, so why should we believe that it is impossible for God to enable us to learn 60 things in our lifetime? I believe there is evidence to support (subject matter for a future thread?) that we are living in the last days, and in the time when God promised a Great Christian Revival to sweep the land. A time when it is prophesied that we will do greater things than Jesus did during his 3-year ministry! So if that day is just around the corner and God is going to equip us to do the Greater Things, shouldn't we also believe that God is going to lead us into all truth (the 60 to 65 Bible doctrines)? I hope we are in agreement on these things, but let's at least see if this system of study will work with one of the most controversial doctrines of the Bible - the "Rapture". For if most of us can come to an agreement on the end-times Bible doctrine, then we should be able to come to an agreement on all of the less controversial subject matters too, right?”

“How many of you would consider yourself to be biased? I would argue that the vast majority of us are biased (including myself) and that "bias" in of itself is not a bad thing ...it simply indicates that we are using our nuggets ...that we are thinking and making educated decisions based upon our thought process! Being biased isn't wrong, but being dogmatic is! If we (including myself) aren't willing to change our biases if the facts dictate change, then we become dogmatic in our beliefs and are no longer open-minded. My charge to everyone is simply this. Let's tackle this debate and all other debates keeping this principle in mind. Let's form biases on dogmas but be willing to change our biases on dogma if and when the facts dictate change until we all come into all truth on all of the scriptures. This is the only way that all of us Christians will finally be able to come into all truth! Is that fair enough?”

“At this point in time I don't even want to tell anyone my stance on when I believe the "rapture" will take place. I don't want to muddy up those waters at this time. But what I would like to do in this thread at this time, is to throw out some terms ...some Bible phrases to see if we all agree or disagree that these terms coincide with the "rapture". And if we agree, then I will add some more terms and so forth and so on, until we have a list of terms related to the timing of the rapture. Once we have a list of terms that the vast majority (those that aren't dogmatic) can agree with in regards to coinciding with the rapture, then we should be able to begin to paint a picture of when the rapture will actually take place. In other words, let's pursue this debate a little differently, let's begin this study with what we can agree upon rather than what we disagree upon! If we can't come to a consensus on the timeline on certain terms, then it makes no sense at all to me for us to enter into deeper waters, does it to you? Many/most threads start out as a fight on what we disagree about rather than what we agree about. How about we begin this debate with the opposite approach? This might all sound a little confusing now, but it will hopefully get easier in time, ha, ha.”

“OK, I'm going to throw out the first two terms, and let's debate whether or not they represent the time of the rapture or not. We don't have to agree that they represent the time of the rapture - for maybe they don't. We all need to prove one way or another whether these terms represent the time of the rapture or not. No matter which side you take, please use scriptures to support your bias (belief system).”

OK, let's start with two Biblical phrases:

The "Day of Christ"and The "Day of the Lord"

Are either one or both of these Biblical days referring to the time of the Rapture? Yes or No? Use scriptures to support your stance. I will begin by starting the next post on the “Day of Christ” and the “Day of the Lord”. Feel free to chime in and once everyone that wants to jump in is finished, we will add a new phrase until we have covered all scriptures concerning the “Rapture” and the “Second Coming”. I just ask that we all stay with the verses covering the first phrase before we add additional verses with other phrases. I promise you we will cover all verses in due time!

I will be highlighting these phrases in different colors (eg. “Day of Christ” / “Day of Christ” in green) so that they will stand out against all of the other terms and eventually we will hopefully be able to paint a full picture of the event.
Regards, thekingdomkeys
 

thekingdomkeys

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OK, I think that I have listed most of the “Day of Christ” and “Day of our Lord” verses in the Bible dealing with the doctrines of the “Rapture” and the “Second Coming”, but if you have others that you would like to introduce, feel free do so. Please read my initial comments near the bottom of this post (right after the quoted passages).

Philippians 1:6-10
[sup]6[/sup]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
[sup]7[/sup]Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
[sup]8[/sup]For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
[sup]9[/sup]And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
[sup]10[/sup]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Philippians 2:16
[sup]16[/sup]Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4
[sup]2[/sup]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[sup]3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[sup]4[/sup]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

1 Corinthians 1:8
[sup]8[/sup]Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5
[sup]4[/sup]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[sup]5[/sup]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:14
[sup]14[/sup]As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 3:10-12
[sup]10[/sup]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[sup]11[/sup]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[sup]12[/sup]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Acts 2:16-20
[sup]16[/sup]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[sup]17[/sup]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[sup]18[/sup]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
[sup]19[/sup]And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
[sup]20[/sup]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Joel 1:15
[sup]15[/sup]Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2:1-15
[sup]1[/sup]Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
[sup]2[/sup]A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
[sup]3[/sup]A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
[sup]4[/sup]The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
[sup]5[/sup]Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
[sup]6[/sup]Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
[sup]7[/sup]They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
[sup]8[/sup]Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
[sup]9[/sup]They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
[sup]10[/sup]The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
[sup]11[/sup]And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 2:28-31
[sup]28[/sup]And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
[sup]29[/sup]And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
[sup]30[/sup]And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
[sup]31[/sup]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 3:11-15
[sup]11[/sup]Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
[sup]12[/sup]Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
[sup]13[/sup]Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
[sup]14[/sup]Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
[sup]15[/sup]The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Isaiah 2:12
[sup]12[/sup]For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isaiah 13:6-11
[sup]6[/sup]Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
[sup]7[/sup]Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
[sup]8[/sup]And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
[sup]9[/sup]Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
[sup]10[/sup]For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
[sup]11[/sup]And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Jeremiah 46:10
[sup]10[/sup]For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Amos 5:18-20
[sup]18[/sup]Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
[sup]19[/sup]As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
[sup]20[/sup]Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Obadiah 1:15
[sup]15[/sup]For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Zephaniah 1:7-16
[sup]7[/sup]Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
[sup]8[/sup]And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
[sup]9[/sup]In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
[sup]10[/sup]And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
[sup]11[/sup]Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
[sup]12[/sup]And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
[sup]13[/sup]Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
[sup]14[/sup]The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
[sup]15[/sup]That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
[sup]16[/sup]A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

Zechariah 14:1-13
[sup]1[/sup]A day of the LORD is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
[sup]2[/sup]I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
[sup]3[/sup]Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle.
[sup]4[/sup]On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
[sup]5[/sup]You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
[sup]6[/sup]On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness.
[sup]7[/sup]It will be a unique day—a day known only to the LORD—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
[sup]8[/sup]On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
[sup]9[/sup]The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
[sup]10[/sup]The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place.
[sup]11[/sup]It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
[sup]12[/sup]This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
[sup]13[/sup]On that day people will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

Ezekiel 13:5
[sup]5[/sup]Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

Ezekiel 30:2-3
[sup]2[/sup]Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day!
[sup]3[/sup]For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Malachi 3:2
[sup]2[/sup]But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4
[sup]13[/sup]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[sup]14[/sup]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
[sup]1[/sup]But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[sup]2[/sup]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[sup]3[/sup]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[sup]4[/sup]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

I’ll get the ball rolling here. Many folks that believe in a pretribulation rapture also believe that there are two specific “Days” for two specific events. They state that the “Day of our Lord” represents the event of Christ’s Second Coming at the end of the tribulation and they believe that the “Day of Christ” represents the “Rapture” which they say takes place just prior to the 7-year Tribulation period. But the post-tribulation folks believe that both “Days” (the “Day of Christ” and the “Day of our Lord”) are one “Day” and one event.
Now most people (if not everyone) would agree that the “Day of our Lord” represents Jesus’ Second Coming after the Tribulation, so that is something that us forum members can all agree on too, right? It’s good to find some points of agreement so that we can have some reference points to fall back on. OK let’s examine the passages dealing with the “Day of Christ” now. I don’t see anything in the two passages from Philippians (directly below) that sheds any light on the question at hand do you? I don’t see any wording in those passages that tells us that the “Day of Christ” will occur before the Tribulation, representing separate events, nor do I see anything in those passages that indicates that the “Day of Christ” and the “Day of our Lord” represents one “Day” and one event after the Tribulation. Does anyone else? Can we all agree on that?

So let’s look at the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 passage next (see below). This one might possibly shed more light on whether or not the Rapture happens before the Tribulation or after the Tribulation, since it contains a lot of other words and phrases that might become key words in our study. Words and phrases like “falling away” first, and the “man of sin” be revealed. But unfortunately, we can’t look at the phrases “falling away” or “man of sin” just yet, because we are still covering our first phrase the “Day”. We might decide to make “falling away” (apostasy) the next word/phrase that we introduce to our study. So even though the passage from (2 Thessalonians 2:2-4) seem to be very enticing and intriguing, we will have to put them on the shelf for right now. My comments continue after these three passages.

Philippians 1:6-10
[sup]6[/sup]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
[sup]7[/sup]Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
[sup]8[/sup]For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
[sup]9[/sup]And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
[sup]10[/sup]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Philippians 2:16
[sup]16[/sup]Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4
[sup]2[/sup]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[sup]3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[sup]4[/sup]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Now let’s look at the passage (1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4) directly below. Most everyone would agree (tell me if you don’t) that the first portion of this passage (1 Thessalonians 4:18) is dealing with the rapture (“caught up”) but the problem is that it does not contain the phraseology “Day of Christ” or “Day of our Lord” when discussing the event. It uses the curious wording “coming of the Lord” to describe the event. So that really doesn’t tell us much does it? Does everyone agree? Because the “coming of the Lord” could conceivably be representative of the “Day of Christ” and/or the “Day of our Lord” right?

But here’s where it really becomes interesting. Starting with the second half of the passage (1 Thessalonians 5:1-4), for in this portion of the passage actually uses the “Day of our Lord” phraseology! Now if the (1 Thessalonians 5:1-4) passage is talking about the same event as the (1 Thessalonians 4:18) passage, the debate is over …we will all have to concede that the “Rapture” and the “Second Coming” are one event which occurs after the “Tribulation”, right? Do we all agree with the aforementioned statement?
Now, if we do believe that the second part of the (1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4) passage is a continuation of the first portion of the passage, how do you prove that? Please feel free to chime into the study.

Notice also, that the first portion of the passage, that we all agree represents the rapture (“caught up”) also contains quite a few possible key words/phrases (“them which are asleep”, “with a shout”, “the voice of the archangel”, “trump of God”, “in the clouds”) to add to our study. More comments below the passage.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4
[sup]13[/sup]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[sup]14[/sup]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[sup]18[/sup]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
[sup]1[/sup]But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[sup]2[/sup]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[sup]3[/sup]For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[sup]4[/sup]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Now let’s look at three “Day” passages (directly below) from First and Second Corinthians. These passages don’t use the wording “Day of Christ” or “Day of our Lord” but use the phraseology “day of the Lord Jesus”. But maybe more importantly, are there any possible key words/phrases that will aid us in this systematic study? How about “gathered together” in the (1 Corinthians 5:4-5) passage? Do we all agree (or not?) that the “gathered together” in this passage is talking about being “caught up” (the rapture)? But we can’t talk about passages containing the “gathering” just yet. Maybe the “gathering” should be the next colored word in this study?

It’s interesting that the wording in these three passages (day of the Lord Jesus) seems to combine the wording of the “Day of Christ” and the “Day of our Lord”. Does that indicate to us that both “Days” are in fact one “Day” and one event?

1 Corinthians 1:8
[sup]8[/sup]Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5
[sup]4[/sup]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[sup]5[/sup]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:14
[sup]14[/sup]As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

thekingdomkeys
 

TWC

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Those who see the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ as being two separate events cite the former as being about judgment upon unbelievers and the latter as the reward for believers.


Luke 14:13-14
But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.


When is the resurrection of the righteous?


John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells

As far as the present world is concerned, the Day of the Lord marks the end point.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I believe that scripture confirms that the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord are the same event.
 

thekingdomkeys

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TWC said: “Those who see the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ as being two separate events cite the former as being about judgment upon unbelievers and the latter as the reward for believers.”

Luke 14:13-14
But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.

TWC said: “When is the resurrection of the righteous?”

John 6:40
“For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

2 Peter 3:10-13
“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells”

TWC said: “As far as the present world is concerned, the Day of the Lord marks the end point.”

John 5:28-29
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”

TWC said: “I believe that scripture confirms that the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord are the same event.“

OK folks, I was away for a few days (sorry but I can't always work in this forum on a daily basis), and we have received one post (directly above) from TWC on the “Day”. TWC said: “Those who see the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ as being two separate events cite the former as being about judgment upon unbelievers and the latter as the reward for believers.” Then TWC lists passages from Luke 14:13-14, John 6:40, 2 Peter 3:10-13 and John 5:28-29. TWC said: “I believe that scripture confirms that the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord are the same event.”

Lot’s of good passages from TWC that we can’t go into all of them in great detail at this time, because we are still hashing over the “Day”, but let’s look at them a little bit right now. TWC stated (which is true) that many/most of the pre-tribulation rapture folks believe that the “Day of Christ”, just before the tribulation, represents the rapture of the church (for believers). And that they believe that after the 7-year tribulation, is the second/next “Day”, the “Day of the Lord”, which they call a “Day” of judgment (for unbelievers).

So let’s look at this “Last Day” and see if we can determine if it represents either the “Day of Christ”, the “Day of the Lord” or if we can determine if all 3 “Days” (“Day of Christ”, “Day of the Lord” and the “Last Day”) are all the same “Day” and event. One immediate question that strikes me is that if the “Day” of the rapture, being “caught up” (“Day of Christ”), is to take place 7 years before the next “Day” (“Day of the Lord”), how can we justify calling the "Day of Christ" (the believers rapture), the “Last Day”? For if the “Day of Christ” and the “Day of the Lord” are separate “Days” (before and after the tribulation) the “Day of the Lord” rather than the “Day of Christ” would have to represent the “Last Day” right? These are the types of questions that we need to be able to have an answer for correct?

John 11:23-24
“Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Notice (passage above) that Jesus didn’t dispute with Martha about the rapture (resurrection for the believers) was to take place on the “Last Day”, so we have to assume (tell me if I am wrong here) that the rapture will take place on the “Last Day”. Notice (passage below) that Jesus also stated that the believers resurrection (raise him up) would occur on the “Last Day”.

John 6:39-54
“And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 7:37
“In the last day, that great day of the "feast", Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.”

Notice that the “Last Day” (above verse) is tied to the “feast” (“marriage supper of the Lamb” and the “banquet” of TWC’s Luke 14:13-14 passage) which will/can be another future area of discussion. Now possibly the most convincing argument for the three “Days” (“Day of Christ”, “Day of the Lord” and the “Last Day”) being one in the same “Day” and event is the passage directly below. It plainly tells us that the “Last Day” will be a “Day” of judgment for the non-believers when other passages (that we have already looked at), clearly state that the “resurrection” (rapture) will take place on the “Last Day”. Folks we (as Christians) need to have answers for these questions, otherwise we will allow our biases to turn dogmatic.

John 12:47-48
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not (unbelievers), I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him (unbeliever)in the last day.”

Once we finish (everyone that desires to speak has said their piece) discussing the “Day”, I was planning on moving next to the word/phrase “thief” from 2 Peter 3:10 that TWC cited. This would make a nice transition from the “Day” since it actually contains the phrase “Day of the Lord” within the passage: “But the day of the Lord will come like a “thief”.” But I’m starting to think maybe should pursue the word “resurrection” (from TWC’s passages) as our next colored word/phrase to move into next. Remember, I am only color coding the words, because I am attempting to paint a picture.

Feel free to chime in on the “Day” over the next day (no pun intended, ha, ha) or two before we move on to “resurrection”.

The next time that I chime in I will list all of the proofs that we have seemingly been able to glean from the “Day” scriptures so far? And discuss if the scriptures seem to be stating that there are 1 “Day” or 2. We have many more painted topics (words/phrases) to cover, but have the scriptures been able to paint a picture of the timing of the “rapture” just by discussing the “Day”? Let me know your thoughts.

Regards, thekingdomkeys
 

veteran

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The day of the lord and the day does not always mean the end of the world.

Uh, yes it does. It's an event that coincides with Christ's coming and the gathering of His saints after the tribulation that remain on earth til His second coming. There's a whole lot... of Old Testament Scripture detail about that "day of the Lord", so it would help us to be mindful of it, like Apostle Peter admonished us (2 Pet.3:1-2).

It is the same timeline meaning as the "day of Christ" phrase.

It is called a 'day' because of 2 Peter 3:8, which defines the thousand years of Rev.20 that begins with Christ's second coming.

Even Rev.1:10 where John said he was in The Spirit on "the Lord's day" with hearing a "great voice, as of a trumpet" is about that "day of the Lord" event. That's when the last trumpet will sound with Christ's second coming and our gathering.

It is when God will melt the 'elements' (man's order on earth) with a fervent heat of His consuming fire, per 2 Peter 3:10. It's events will occur very quickly, as Apostle Paul explained those on earth being changed as "a twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor.15).

It is when the armies out of the northern quarters to surround Jerusalem on the last day will be defeated, most of them destroyed (Ezekiel 38-39; Rev.16 & 19)

It is when God will bring His wrath upon the earth like turning a bottle upside down, and its contents emptied at an instant (Isaiah 24 per Hebrew).
 
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thekingdomkeys

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The day of the lord and the day does not always mean the end of the world.

Please cite scripture examples of what you are trying to say.
Regards, Thekingdomkeys

Uh, yes it does. It's an event that coincides with Christ's coming and the gathering of His saints after the tribulation that remain on earth til His second coming. There's a whole lot... of Old Testament Scripture detail about that "day of the Lord", so it would help us to be mindful of it, like Apostle Peter admonished us (2 Pet.3:1-2).

It is the same timeline meaning as the "day of Christ" phrase.

It is called a 'day' because of 2 Peter 3:8, which defines the thousand years of Rev.20 that begins with Christ's second coming.

Even Rev.1:10 where John said he was in The Spirit on "the Lord's day" with hearing a "great voice, as of a trumpet" is about that "day of the Lord" event. That's when the last trumpet will sound with Christ's second coming and our gathering.

It is when God will melt the 'elements' (man's order on earth) with a fervent heat of His consuming fire, per 2 Peter 3:10. It's events will occur very quickly, as Apostle Paul explained those on earth being changed as "a twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor.15).

It is when the armies out of the northern quarters to surround Jerusalem on the last day will be defeated, most of them destroyed (Ezekiel 38-39; Rev.16 & 19)

It is when God will bring His wrath upon the earth like turning a bottle upside down, and its contents emptied at an instant (Isaiah 24 per Hebrew).

Curious to see you back in my thread Veteran. Didn't you say you were ignoring me?
thekingdomkeys
 

aspen

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This is really terrible, but it is also funny.....

Every time I see thekingdomkeys......I see The King Donkey. I am really sorry for misreading your name for so long TKK. I enjoy reading your posts.

blessings
 

thekingdomkeys

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This is really terrible, but it is also funny.....

Every time I see thekingdomkeys......I see The King Donkey. I am really sorry for misreading your name for so long TKK. I enjoy reading your posts.

blessings

Not a problem Aspen, my wife saw the same thing when I picked the email name, ha, ha, heehaw!
 
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thekingdomkeys

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Uh, yes it does. It's an event that coincides with Christ's coming and the gathering of His saints after the tribulation that remain on earth til His second coming. There's a whole lot... of Old Testament Scripture detail about that "day of the Lord", so it would help us to be mindful of it, like Apostle Peter admonished us (2 Pet.3:1-2).

It is the same timeline meaning as the "day of Christ" phrase.

It is called a 'day' because of 2 Peter 3:8, which defines the thousand years of Rev.20 that begins with Christ's second coming.

Even Rev.1:10 where John said he was in The Spirit on "the Lord's day" with hearing a "great voice, as of a trumpet" is about that "day of the Lord" event. That's when the last trumpet will sound with Christ's second coming and our gathering.

It is when God will melt the 'elements' (man's order on earth) with a fervent heat of His consuming fire, per 2 Peter 3:10. It's events will occur very quickly, as Apostle Paul explained those on earth being changed as "a twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor.15).

It is when the armies out of the northern quarters to surround Jerusalem on the last day will be defeated, most of them destroyed (Ezekiel 38-39; Rev.16 & 19)

It is when God will bring His wrath upon the earth like turning a bottle upside down, and its contents emptied at an instant (Isaiah 24 per Hebrew).

Veteran, I have a beef to pick with you here. You specifically said that you were going to ignore me and now you have broken the silence! I thought it would be a good thing to stay out of the discussion, until you learn how to operate in Christ's love in a debate forum. To be quite honest with you, I was glad to see you leave, and I'm surprised that others in this forum haven't complained about you in the past.

Justinian 1 simply made one statement "The day of the lord and the day does not always mean the end of the world" and before Justinian 1 had a chance to explain himself, the Veteran rhetoric started all over again! I have already told you Veteran and everyone else, that this thread would be handled differently. If you can't respect the voice of others, nobody should have to listen to ramblings!!!

Sorry Veteran, but I don't want you working in this thread anymore. I am tired of you hijacking my thread and I am tired of your disrespect for others! Please leave. If you continue to post in this thread I will be forced to report you.
thekingdomkeys

The day of the lord and the day does not always mean the end of the world.

Justinian, please disregard Veteran's ramblings and please cite the scripture verses that you had in mind when you said: "The day of the lord and the day does not always mean the end of the world". Once you have listed the verses of contention in this thread, we will all be able to discuss them together.
Thank you, Thekingdomkeys

Hey I see I am now called and "Advanced Member" and not a 'Newbee' or 'Greenstick' or whatever else I was called, ha, ha.
thekingdomkeys