Can You Disprove This?

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lawrance

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But of him that calleth. i think it has noting to do with pre selected, as all are called ? but him that calleth, is that not that you listened due to the Spirit doing the calling.
Was the Devil called, no it was his own doing.
 

prism

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Let God be God. He is the Potter, we are the clay. Period.
 

justaname

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May I suggest that the problem with these statements is that they are about you....not God. You have made it out that God did all these things for you (and to an extent He did), when God's Word may suggest different. Please bear with my explanation for just a moment: 1. The Promise was not made to you, the promise was made to Abraham's Seed, which is Christ (Galatians 3:14-19). So your second statement was the most accurate one. 2. You are an heir to that promise (Hebrews 6:13-20), but it still has nothing to do with you, it has everything to do with God through Christ....and He keeps His promises. It is impossible for Him to lie. 3. You were born into sin. (Romans 5:12-14) 4. God cannot have fellowship with sin. (Psalm 5:4-6, 2 Corintians 5:21) 5. It then stands to reason....God did not know you until you became an heir of the Promise. He does, of course, desire all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), so he makes His word available to all who wish it....and some who don't so that He can keep His promise.

God knows all things, including those who are heirs of the promise and those who are not. To say God does not know you until, is to say God does not know the end from the beginning.
 

lawrance

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But justaname, did he not say i never knew you, to someone remember ? not all that say Lord Lord !
All things and you, are not the same thing.
 

justaname

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But justaname, did he not say i never knew you, to someone remember ? not all that say Lord Lord !
All things and you, are not the same thing.
This can be interesting as a play on words. All things would include everything, including every "you." Yet as you point out, no pun intended, Christ does say that. I would have to say though in context, the key word here is "know." I understand that "know" to be relational or even doctrinal. For example, if Jesus is God, as I believe, then my relationship with Him would be different than say a J.W. or Russellite, who does not accept the divinity of Jesus. Thereby when I seek Him as Abba, it will be different than when a J.W. seeks someone different, and Jesus will be just in His response as to not knowing that J.W.
 

lawrance

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Are some people pre selected before they were born ? rubbish.
All have the ability.
Are some saying that some are born less than others. that's just worldly hog wash.
 

veteran

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Are some people pre selected before they were born ? rubbish.
All have the ability.
Are some saying that some are born less than others. that's just worldly hog wash.


Not really hogwash, if you study John 17 and Romans 9 closely, and consider those of Bible history which God specifically chose to do His Work for the rest of us who are called.

Predestination of God's elect is important to understand, not in the sense that they are any better than any other believer on Christ Jesus. But per God's Purpose involving His Gospel Salvation Plan.

If God's ordaining and predestination was not a Biblical fact, then He would not have directly intervened in the lives of His chosen sent ones, with Saul (Paul) being one of the best examples of that. If we were all chosen like that, then where's the proof of Christ directly intervening in our lives like He did with Saul? And if He did that with Saul (Paul), then why not everyone?
 

Groundzero

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Not really hogwash, if you study John 17 and Romans 9 closely, and consider those of Bible history which God specifically chose to do His Work for the rest of us who are called.

Predestination of God's elect is important to understand, not in the sense that they are any better than any other believer on Christ Jesus. But per God's Purpose involving His Gospel Salvation Plan.

If God's ordaining and predestination was not a Biblical fact, then He would not have directly intervened in the lives of His chosen sent ones, with Saul (Paul) being one of the best examples of that. If we were all chosen like that, then where's the proof of Christ directly intervening in our lives like He did with Saul? And if He did that with Saul (Paul), then why not everyone?

True. I think God has a plan for all of us, but, at the same time, he let's us choose what we want to do. I guess it's not quite predestination in that sense, as we still get to choose Heaven or Hell. God, however, has a plan for EVERYONE to be saved. It's up to them whether they want to accept it.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

lawrance

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Not really hogwash, if you study John 17 and Romans 9 closely, and consider those of Bible history which God specifically chose to do His Work for the rest of us who are called.

Predestination of God's elect is important to understand, not in the sense that they are any better than any other believer on Christ Jesus. But per God's Purpose involving His Gospel Salvation Plan.

If God's ordaining and predestination was not a Biblical fact, then He would not have directly intervened in the lives of His chosen sent ones, with Saul (Paul) being one of the best examples of that. If we were all chosen like that, then where's the proof of Christ directly intervening in our lives like He did with Saul? And if He did that with Saul (Paul), then why not everyone?
Yes i agree with all that.

But i was looking at it as like some who have said to me, in the sense that some are called and some are not, and they are not talking about what you just said at all. they are using it in a different way to prop themselves up in the eyes of others in their mob.
And i am sure you know to whom this type of people are.
 

justaname

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I can say it in this form. God chose Noah. God chose Abraham. God chose the twelve, and it was written that one of His own would betray Him. (Because God knows the end from the beginning; He is the only Sovereign) God chose Saul who became Paul.
God choses all who come to Him. John 15:16 John 6:44
This world is created by God for God and His purpose. Colossians 1:16 Romans 11:36 John 1:3

Now with that said, I am not God. I will share the gospel. I will plant seeds and water them; God grows what is sown.
Mark 4:26-29 1 Corinthians 3:6

It is only by the work of God that were are saved, every one who is saved.

Matthew 22:14
It does not say many are called but few chose God.

Matthew 13:3-9 Luke 8:4-21

Now did we create ourselves as paths, rocks, among thorns, or good soil? No, God is the Creator of us.

Belief in Jesus Christ is only a decision away, but for some that decision might as well be a galaxy away. I don't know why I have faith like I do, it is not from anything thing I did, God just made me with the faith I have. Can anyone claim any different?
 

ttruscott

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God knows all things, including those who are heirs of the promise and those who are not. To say God does not know you until, is to say God does not know the end from the beginning.

Know (knew) does not mean to know about... Neither does foreknew.

Romans 8:29 - For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.

From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, as per

Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD before life love some and not the rest?

The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in the creatures, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:

Romans 9:11 - For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth...

Romans 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy.

Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not before life love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.

...

Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge being particular can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures and since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for why GOD does it particularly, we are left with but two conclusions.

We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.

This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular before life love. Whom GOD elects - foreknows is based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we can not find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to preconception theology, the before life love (foreknowledge) of GOD, viz., HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.

Therein is the reason why HE loved some before this life and why HE did not love the rest.

Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves by their true free will choice before they came to earth and some had not. Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly, and others only if HE was infallibly gracious to them. Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other evil ones for the Day of Judgement and established them for the correction of the fallen elect.

Now, I ask you, which doctrine is the more scriptural and reasonable and compatible with the attributes of GOD?


Peace, Ted
 

justaname

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God is omniscient. This should answer everything but...

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD before life love some and not the rest?

To suit His purpose and plan. This life is not about us and our plan, it is about Him and His. Romans 8:28
Colossians 1:16 Romans 11:36 John 1:3
 

lawrance

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Mar 30, 2011
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I can say it in this form. God chose Noah. God chose Abraham. God chose the twelve, and it was written that one of His own would betray Him. (Because God knows the end from the beginning; He is the only Sovereign) God chose Saul who became Paul.
God choses all who come to Him. John 15:16 John 6:44
This world is created by God for God and His purpose. Colossians 1:16 Romans 11:36 John 1:3

Now with that said, I am not God. I will share the gospel. I will plant seeds and water them; God grows what is sown.
Mark 4:26-29 1 Corinthians 3:6

It is only by the work of God that were are saved, every one who is saved.

Matthew 22:14
It does not say many are called but few chose God.

Matthew 13:3-9 Luke 8:4-21

Now did we create ourselves as paths, rocks, among thorns, or good soil? No, God is the Creator of us.

Belief in Jesus Christ is only a decision away, but for some that decision might as well be a galaxy away. I don't know why I have faith like I do, it is not from anything thing I did, God just made me with the faith I have. Can anyone claim any different?
Did you have an ear ?
And faith can grow.
Blind faith is rubbish as it goes no where.
 

ttruscott

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Feb 3, 2012
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God is omniscient. This should answer everything but...

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD before life love some and not the rest?

To suit His purpose and plan. This life is not about us and our plan, it is about Him and His. Romans 8:28
Colossians 1:16 Romans 11:36 John 1:3

Ahhh, yes, I'm curious. does your answer mean you don't know or that in your opinion it is hidden to everyone? Well there is an even harder question that I think HE wants us to answer by studying HIS attributes...

Would the GOD who is love create a person whom HE knew before the creation would go to hell for eternity?

I've been told that GOD is omniscient about everything HE created by creative decree. If HE did not decree its creation, it does not exist so it is NOT covered by HIS omniscience.

When HE created the spirits in HIS image, (us), making them able to make true free will choices, HE did not decree the outcome of their choices so HE in fact did not know how anyone would choose, for HIM or against HIM.

So, define love so it includes callous damnation or define free will so it includes an outcome not covered by omniscience. You choose.

Peace, Ted
 

prism

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God is 100% sovereign, yet He is 100% sovereign in a way that keeps intact 100% of our responsibility.
 

justaname

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God is 100% sovereign, yet He is 100% sovereign in a way that keeps intact 100% of our responsibility.
I completely agree with this. As for the questions and other posts I will get back later.
 

Butch5

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Thank you, can you explain how that works please?

Ted

Sure, I'm sovereign in my house hold, yet those in my house hold are responsible to the tasks delegated to them.

Know (knew) does not mean to know about... Neither does foreknew.

Romans 8:29 - For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.

From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, as per

Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.

Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD before life love some and not the rest?

The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in the creatures, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:

Romans 9:11 - For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth...

Romans 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy.

Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not before life love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.

...

Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge being particular can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures and since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for why GOD does it particularly, we are left with but two conclusions.

We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.

This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular before life love. Whom GOD elects - foreknows is based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we can not find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to preconception theology, the before life love (foreknowledge) of GOD, viz., HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.

Therein is the reason why HE loved some before this life and why HE did not love the rest.

Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves by their true free will choice before they came to earth and some had not. Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly, and others only if HE was infallibly gracious to them. Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other evil ones for the Day of Judgement and established them for the correction of the fallen elect.

Now, I ask you, which doctrine is the more scriptural and reasonable and compatible with the attributes of GOD?


Peace, Ted

Hi Ted,

I'd say neither. Understanding the passage in context, however, eliminates the problems you've presented.
 

prism

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Thank you, can you explain how that works please?

Ted

Both points are revealed in Scripture, yet it is above my finite reason and pay grade as to how both interact in such a way that both remain intact.
 

WhiteKnuckle

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If you're stating this as your personal belief, I can't disprove. A persons belief can't be disproven or proven, to an extent that its their belief, and such holds a truth to that person regardless of information provided that doesn't agree. That said,,,,,,,,

I've been wondering about this definition of Romans 8:29. "Those whom He foreknew......predestined.....". Most seem to think of the Calvinistic predestination doctrine. This is the same doctrine you describe. I read something similar to what ttruscott posted, but, with an addition, that the foreknown were Jews. So, I began to read Romans 8 all the way through Romans 12. This whole lot is about Jews, and Jews Salvation, and how the Gentiles relate and why. Then I ran into this awesome little tidbit here.......

Romans 11:1

I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Now I ask, Who is the "Foreknew"?

After finding this out, and thinking of the words of Romans, I remembered the conversation Jesus had with Peter.

Mathew 16:15

15He said to them, But whom say you that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in heaven.
(some translations reas, "you could not have known, unless the Father in Heaven revealed it to you".)

Either way, the Calvinist Doctrine takes situations and verses like this and ties them together in blindness. By saing, that God has to reveal it, and that some are predestined, etc, etc.

The context, is, even if Peter could not have believed, it would've been because Peter was Jew, and the Jews were Blinded in part, as stated in Romans. However, if the context is just as it seems, Peter is blessed, BECAUSE God revealed it to him and no man had to explain it. (Even though everyone who believes is blessed because they believe.)

If we put it all in context, Jews, are the foreknown, and the first born among many brothers.