Can You Disprove This?

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ttruscott

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Both points are revealed in Scripture, yet it is above my finite reason and pay grade as to how both interact in such a way that both remain intact.

You don't like the logic or whatever of my effort, post #14? I agree He is 100% sovereign yet we are 100% responsible for our ending place in the universe and the creation of evil... I just filled in some missing pieces. :)

Peace, Ted

Sure, I'm sovereign in my house hold, yet those in my house hold are responsible to the tasks delegated to them.



Hi Ted,

I'd say neither. Understanding the passage in context, however, eliminates the problems you've presented.

Only if I keep your doctrinal interpretation...which I won't. shrug

Peace,
Ted

WhiteKnuckle,

Foreknow is used for HIS elect, predestined to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.

Christ's peace to you,

Ted
 

Butch5

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You don't like the logic or whatever of my effort, post #14? I agree He is 100% sovereign yet we are 100% responsible for our ending place in the universe and the creation of evil... I just filled in some missing pieces. :)

Peace, Ted



Only if I keep your doctrinal interpretation...which I won't. shrug

Peace,
Ted

WhiteKnuckle,

Foreknow is used for HIS elect, predestined to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.

Christ's peace to you,

Ted

It's not a doctrinal interpretation Ted, it's the definition of a word. The Calvinist takes the definition of Sovereign to places the dictionary doesn't. When one has to redefine words their doctrine should be suspect.
 

prism

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You don't like the logic or whatever of my effort, post #14?

Ted

Let's just let logic be subservient to God's revealed Truth in His Word. Your logic vs God's Word? Guess which I'll chose.
 

WhiteKnuckle

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The semantics of the word "Foreknew" doesn't change the meaning of the intented context of this scripture. What does change is using a paragraph and applying meaning to it.

If we use the meaning that's suggested by some, the verse doesn't fit. It becomes some random statement. It's almost like Paul was making a point, then all of a sudden he had one of those "Oh, Hey, you know what?" and then rambles for a little before getting back on track.

Here's an example.

To finish this project, we will need, a welder, a torch, 3 sticks of 1/4" steel tubing, and a grinder. After we get these supplies we can,, Oh, I had some coffe this morning, it was delicious. Now, we need to cut all the tubing and bend it to print before we can weld. Without the supplies we can't finish the job.
 

justaname

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The semantics of the word "Foreknew" doesn't change the meaning of the intented context of this scripture. What does change is using a paragraph and applying meaning to it.

If we use the meaning that's suggested by some, the verse doesn't fit. It becomes some random statement. It's almost like Paul was making a point, then all of a sudden he had one of those "Oh, Hey, you know what?" and then rambles for a little before getting back on track.

Here's an example.

To finish this project, we will need, a welder, a torch, 3 sticks of 1/4" steel tubing, and a grinder. After we get these supplies we can,, Oh, I had some coffe this morning, it was delicious. Now, we need to cut all the tubing and bend it to print before we can weld. Without the supplies we can't finish the job.
LOL! This is the funniest thing I read all day. Great way to illustrate a point.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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Did you know and realise there are 2 books? Most Christians do not know that.

The Book of Life is the book in which appears the name of every person who is born. The Lamb's Book of Life is the book in which appears the name of every person who has been born again, spiritually speaking, who has been saved through the blood of the Lamb, the Lord Jesus Christ. These are not actually books, but God speaks to man in the language that he can understand. To say that our names are in these books is to say that we are in the mind of God. When do our names appear in these books? The answer is found in Psalm 139:16:

"Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance;
And in thy book they were all written,
Even the days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was none of them."

Also in Revelation 13:8 we find that, in the foreknowledge and omniscience of God, our names appeared in these books "from the foundation of the world."

The Book of Life is mentioned in Psalm 69:28, along with the Lamb's Book. Through the law of double reference, the plea of David blends into that of the Lord Jesus Christ in verses 19 to 28. Speaking of the leaders, the authorities, such as Caiaphas, who perpetrated His arrest and crucifixion, He pleads:

27 "Add iniquity unto their iniquity;
And let them not come into thy righteousness,
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of life,
And not be written with the righteous."

This passage reveals that names can be blotted out of the Book of Life. We know that none can be blotted out of the Lamb's Book, because no one who has been saved is ever lost. In this passage, then, the plea is made that these wicked ones have their names removed from the Book of Life that they never have salvation-never have their names enrolled with the righteous in the Lamb's Book. This prayer is not contradictory to the prayer on the cross, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." As this prayer clearly indicates, it is for those who in ignorance were led to join in the cry, "Crucify him; crucify him." It is not for those in authority who knowingly and willfully perpetrated the most heinous crime in all history.

The Book of Life is mentioned in Revelation, chapter 3:

"4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

This passage shows that the righteous will have their names retained in the Book of Life. From the statement that the Lord Jesus will confess the names of these persons before God Father, we know that their names are also in the Lamb's Book of Life.

In Revelation 13:8 we learn that during the Tribulation all those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will worship the Antichrist: "And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain."

Lastly we learn of the Book of Life in Revelation 20:11-15, the judgment of the Great White Throne, before which only the wicked will appear:

"11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. 15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

To summarize, every one has his name written in the "Book of life". The wicked will have their names blotted out of this book. The righteous, the born-again believers, have their names written in the Book of Life and in the Lamb's Book, and will never have their names blotted out of either one.

God bless.
 

Axehead

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The Crown of Life said:
God predestined you to decide and choose. He also predestined your decisions and choices.

That was a good try. Think about it and then try again.
Did He predestine me to rebel against Him and sin and then to repent, and sin again and repent? Just call me R2D2. I have been programmed and am not responsible for any of my actions or thoughts.

The Crown of Life said:
What church do you attend?
May we also ask you what church you attend?

Can someone disprove that your name cannot be blotted out of the book of life as the Lord implies. Notice, He is speaking to the Church!!

Rev.3:5: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." We overcome by our faith which is exhibited by faithfulness.
 

williemac

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justaname said:
I can say it in this form. God chose Noah. God chose Abraham. God chose the twelve, and it was written that one of His own would betray Him. (Because God knows the end from the beginning; He is the only Sovereign) God chose Saul who became Paul.
God choses all who come to Him. John 15:16 John 6:44
This world is created by God for God and His purpose. Colossians 1:16 Romans 11:36 John 1:3

Now with that said, I am not God. I will share the gospel. I will plant seeds and water them; God grows what is sown.
Mark 4:26-29 1 Corinthians 3:6

It is only by the work of God that were are saved, every one who is saved.

Matthew 22:14
It does not say many are called but few chose God.

Matthew 13:3-9 Luke 8:4-21

Now did we create ourselves as paths, rocks, among thorns, or good soil? No, God is the Creator of us.

Belief in Jesus Christ is only a decision away, but for some that decision might as well be a galaxy away. I don't know why I have faith like I do, it is not from anything thing I did, God just made me with the faith I have. Can anyone claim any different?
Your faith is merely the method by which He gave you life. It was not the thing that qualified you for life. Faith is a means.
Why you have it?...Well for starters it comes by hearing. But knowing that God gives grace through faith, and knowing that God gives grace to the humble, may I suggest that our humility is that which God is more interested in. This is found in several references, not the least of which is Luke18:10-14. I propose that faith comes as a result of our having humbled ourselves. It is a fruit of our humility. But the op would have us accept that God has manipulated every aspect of the human psyche apart from anyone's individual input. This can easily be disproven.
In 2Cor.5:19,20, we find God, through us, pleading with the world to respond to His initiation towards reconciliation. That should be quite enough to disprove the op. The op premise is based on speculation from a few passages, drawing conclusions that go beyond what those passages intend to communicate.
We have seen in scripture as pointed out in other responses, that God's foreknowledge is what He used to make His determinations towards individuals.

If God indeed has determined who would belong to Him apart from any participation from them, then the other side of that coin is that God has determined those who would not be His,..... based on what criteria I ask? Did He flip a coin? Was there a lottery? Did He do the eenie meenie thing? What does this say about God? Nothing good, I assure you. It makes Him out to be a control freak who has no compassion, simply making mindless pawns out of those whom were created supposedly in His image. The potter and clay theory is a gross misinterpretation of how He is dealing with mankind. That is not about control, but rather authority. For those who do not seem to know that the two are different from one another, they scare me.
 

Axehead

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God is certainly the "Great Initiator". No doubt about that.

No man seeks for God. He seeks us out and draws us to Him. He reveals Himself to us and has made us capable of choosing.
 
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whitestone

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Axehead said:
God is certainly the "Great Initiator". No doubt about that.

No man seeks for God. He seeks us out and draws us to Him. He reveals Himself to us and has made us capable of choosing.
Amen. And so also is scriptures plain and confirmed;

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I choose Life.

It was much harder than choosing death. It took all my strength mind and soul to choose Life, the Life that Jesus bought me and freely offered to me.

That means something to Him. Something special. Likened unto a Jewel being revealed as Malachi says. As fine Gold another says. Our response to Him is exceptional and unique to God! His true Children are rare who come to Godliness by Faith. No one will ever tell me that my choice for Jesus against the odds isn't pleasing to Him.

The point is moot whether Jesus did everything else for me. Of course He did. But He didn't "choose" for me... I choose Him. Just exactly as Duet 30:19 shows is the Blessing because of my Choice.

Because of the combination of the above, His offering, and my choice, I am Elect and Predestinated. I fill the office of those available predestined thrones we are invited to sit in at the great Wedding feast of Christ our Husband to His Israel Bride Church who we ARE then, Now, tomorrow and forever. By our choice, we choose Life. Any other teaching is of the devil bringing nothing but dissension and strife of words and philosophy. Peace
 
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the stranger

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<< Psalm 139 >>
New Living Translation
For the choir director: A psalm of David.
1O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.

2You know when I sit down or stand up.
You know my thoughts even when I’m far away.
3You see me when I travel
and when I rest at home.
You know everything I do.
4You know what I am going to say
even before I say it, Lord.
5You go before me and follow me.
You place your hand of blessing on my head.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too great for me to understand!
7I can never escape from your Spirit!
I can never get away from your presence!
8If I go up to heaven, you are there;
if I go down to the grave,a you are there.
9If I ride the wings of the morning,
if I dwell by the farthest oceans,
10even there your hand will guide me,
and your strength will support me.
11I could ask the darkness to hide me
and the light around me to become night—
12but even in darkness I cannot hide from you.
To you the night shines as bright as day.
Darkness and light are the same to you.
13You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body
and knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!
Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.
15You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion,
as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.
16You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.
17How precious are your thoughts about me,b O God.
They cannot be numbered!
18I can’t even count them;
they outnumber the grains of sand!
And when I wake up,
you are still with me!

New International Version (©1984) Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

New International Version (©1984) Acts 13:48
When
the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the
Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

New International Version (©1984) Matthew 25:34
"Then
the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by
my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the
creation of the world.

New International Version (©1984) Matthew 20:23
Jesus
said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my
right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for
whom they have been prepared by my Father."



New Living Translation (©2007) Job 14:5
You have decided the length of our lives. You know how many months we will live, and we are not given a minute longer.


<< Acts 17 >>
New International Version 1984
26From
one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole
earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places
where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.

New Living Translation (©2007) Isaiah 42:9
Everything I prophesied has come true, and now I will prophesy again. I will tell you the future before it happens."




For me personally, it is a great relief to know, no matter what happens, from day to day, God already ordained it to happen. Their is nothing that happens that He does not allow for a reason. There is nothing that is going to happen to any of us that God did not already know about. In these scriptures lie this hope and peace (Genesis 15:20; James 4:13-14)

What this does not mean is that we have no choice to accept Christ or deny Christ. Choice in the bible is very clear. If it were not up to us could we be held accountable? Some asked Paul this same question of course. (Romans 9:18-23)

But that passage also declares one more time the foreknowledge of God. I believe it is biblical to say God created no one for hell but for all to come to a relationship with Himself as they belong in heaven and God hates to see the wicked die. All of Gods work from the beginning was good. Hell was created for the angels that rebelled including Satan, but those of us humans that rebell as well hell is the only other place we can be placed. Between we are for or against the Lord Almighty. No in between.

All that being said, knowing it is up to us to accept Jesus as Christ or not, God foreknew from the foundation of this world who would accept Him and who would not. We can comfort in this very fact. Could we truly put all our faith in a God Who did not know the future or did not know His sheep? How can we tell if someone is right with Jesus? His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

God bless
 

mjrhealth

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Me I am nothing like my father God, but I know that His will is that I become like His son, that is His will for all men, so I wait and let Him change me, day by day bit by bit all to His Glory, none of it will be shared all His as it should be.
In all His Love.
 

Axehead

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Life with the Lord is a cooperative relationship. That is the essence of a loving relationship. Cooperation.

We choose to bring our will into harmony with His as He reveals His will to us, day by day, moment by moment.
 

Spirit Covenant

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Foreigner said:
Watsoncarl53, usually if you want to ask "Can you disprove this?" you are going to be met with "Don't have to. You haven't proven it."
Care to prove what you say?

Your post is like someone asking, "Can God make a rock so big that He Himself can't lift it?"
Unfortunately there is absolute proof for the OP. Here it is
Psalm 139
13 For you fashioned my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I thank you because I am awesomely made, wonderfully; your works are wonders -I know this very well. 15 My bones were not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed.

God has also made a stone that He himself can not lift or move.

Psalm 118
22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone.

Matthew 21
42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'?
 

williemac

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Spirit Covenant said:
Unfortunately there is absolute proof for the OP. Here it is
Psalm 139
13 For you fashioned my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I thank you because I am awesomely made, wonderfully; your works are wonders -I know this very well. 15 My bones were not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed.

God has also made a stone that He himself can not lift or move.

Psalm 118
22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone.

Matthew 21
42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'?
If you think ps.139 absolutely proves the op, then maybe you haven't comprehended what the passage is saying. Our days were written before we were born. What does that mean? Does it mean that God is entirely responsible for every thought and action we do while in this life? Is He responsible for every event and experience we encounter? Did He dream all of it up and simply make for Himself puppets or robots to play out His script? The friend or loved one who has cancer..was this part of God's glorious plan? Did He plan and execute all the crime, tragedy, loss, famine, poverty, pain, suffering, turmoil, abuse, war, and all the atrocities committed against both God and humanity?
This is what the op is suggesting in so many words. It is the logical conclusion when insisting that man has no free will. It is the logical conclusion from ps.139 if we forget one small (actually, huge) detail. One word: Foreknowledge. Did God cause the numbers of hairs on our heads, or does He KNOW the numbers?

One of His divine attributes is called omniscience. We may as well throw that one away if we are to accept the op. There is no sense in saying that God knows all things if He in fact does all things. What would there be to know? Are our days written and shaped by His hand or are they simply known beforehand by a God who knows all things? You decide. And while you are at it, you might want to consider the character of our Father in Heaven.
 

Mercy777

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The Crown of Life said:
My name was predestined to be in The Book of Life.

I had nothing to do with it.

It was written in The Book of Life, before I was born.

God determined who hears his word.

God determined who believed his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would hear his word.

God predetermined before I was born that I would believe his word.

He already had predetermined that I would believe his word because He

had predetermined I would hear his word and believe his word.

To which came to pass,

because God wrote my name in The Book of Life

before the world was created

and I was born.

Can you disprove this?

NO!

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
John 1:13
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Romans 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Romans 9:17

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

John 19:11
Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

John 17:7
Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

God Bless,
Mercy
 

Spirit Covenant

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williemac said:
If you think ps.139 absolutely proves the op, then maybe you haven't comprehended what the passage is saying. Our days were written before we were born. What does that mean? Does it mean that God is entirely responsible for every thought and action we do while in this life? Is He responsible for every event and experience we encounter? Did He dream all of it up and simply make for Himself puppets or robots to play out His script? The friend or loved one who has cancer..was this part of God's glorious plan? Did He plan and execute all the crime, tragedy, loss, famine, poverty, pain, suffering, turmoil, abuse, war, and all the atrocities committed against both God and humanity?
This is what the op is suggesting in so many words. It is the logical conclusion when insisting that man has no free will. It is the logical conclusion from ps.139 if we forget one small (actually, huge) detail. One word: Foreknowledge. Did God cause the numbers of hairs on our heads, or does He KNOW the numbers?

One of His divine attributes is called omniscience. We may as well throw that one away if we are to accept the op. There is no sense in saying that God knows all things if He in fact does all things. What would there be to know? Are our days written and shaped by His hand or are they simply known beforehand by a God who knows all things? You decide. And while you are at it, you might want to consider the character of our Father in Heaven.
All of those terrible things that you mentioned are mans fault but yes God created it to go in that direction. They are all there because of sin which everyone loves instead of Him. He created and raised up everyone to serve the purpose that they do and no one can do anything different. So for those who He will allow to understand. Now is the time to ask God to fill you with His Spirit to understand these things.

Here is more proof.

Romans 9
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
 

KingJ

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The Crown of Life said:
My name was predestined to be in The Book of Life. As in 'guaranteed'...No. God is impartial on all mankind.

I had nothing to do with it. You have to meet God halfway. Accept = Accept. Reject = reject.

It was written in The Book of Life, before I was born. No. God is impartial on all mankind.

God determined who hears his word. No. God is impartial on all mankind.

God determined who believed his word. No. God is impartial on all mankind.

God predetermined before I was born that I would hear his word. Yes and because He is impartial all have heard His word and are without excuse Rom 1:20.

God predetermined before I was born that I would believe his word. No. God is impartial on all mankind.


He already had predetermined that I would believe his word because He

had predetermined I would hear his word and believe his word. No. God is impartial on all mankind.


To which came to pass, because God wrote my name in The Book of Life before the world was created and I was born.

Can you disprove this?
Yes and so can my kid at sunday school ^_^ .

God is impartial on man. Just google how many scriptures say this, there are so many!

God upholds scripture to the maximum! God makes sacrifices for us! (God left and forsook His Son on the cross for us). Hence God will make the necessary sacrifice to His omniscience to give us true free will. To fulfil scripture that says He is impartial to the maximum!

Hence my green comments to your statements :).

Most who battle with understanding free will have yet to grasp the dictionary definition of ''impartial''. God shows no favouritism = Christianity 101. Then any true Christian believes that the bible is one with God. ie He holds Himself 100% to it. ie, when it says He is just, He is just. When it says He is fair, He is fair. When it says He is impartial, He is impartial.

Our human brains can't fathom true free will because we mix God's omniscience in with our choice. But as Christian we have no excuse!!! We must not fail at grasping that the bible is absolute truth. God does what pleases Him (Psalm 135:6). It pleases Him to give us true free will. It pleases Him to be impartial.