Just heard about the rosary....

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marksman

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I guess when one is under seige, denying reality is one method of defense. If roman catholics do not worship Mary, why are there graven images of her in thousands of RC church buildings which is contrary to scripture and why do they kiss the feet of these graven images as I have seen them do?

One might say that actions speak louder than words.

For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome your familiarity with this text and really look at the words. Doesn’t this sound like worship?
"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled The Glories of Mary which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. [9]

On May 7, 1997, Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to "the Virgin Mary" and urged all Christians to accept her as their mother. He noted the words spoken by Jesus on the cross to Mary and John -- "Woman, behold thy son!" and "Behold thy mother!" (John 19:26, 27), and he claimed that in this statement, "It is possible to understand the authentic meaning in the worship of Mary in the ecclesial community. . .which furthermore is based on the will of Christ" (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997). He said "the history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the path that leads to Christ, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection." He concluded by asking all Christians "to make room for Mary in their daily lives, acknowledging her providential role in the path of Salvation."


Dr. J. D. Fulton: The Lady of the Jesuits is not even an invention of Jesuitism, but an adoption of a pagan conception which cursed Babylon, the prototype of the modern Babylon, centuries before Christ appeared as the son of Mary. Pictures of the mother and child were then worshiped. In almost all the devotional books of the Roman Catholic Church, the mother of God is crowned, sceptred and enthroned as the Queen of heaven. ["She has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth", Pius IX, 1854, but not made "official" till 1954 by Pius XII.] "I can never," said the Rev. M. Hobart Seymour, in his Evenings with the Romanists, page 254, "forget the shock I received when I first saw in their churches in Italy, the Virgin Mary crowned as Queen of heaven, seated on the same throne with Jesus crowned King of heaven. These were the God-man and God-woman enthroned alike. There was nothing to distinguish the one above the other."

Pio Nono (Pius IX), after decreeing the Immaculate Conception, made the cornerstone of the Romish faith to believe and to teach that salvation is received solely and alone through Mary. It is ours to refute this blasphemous assumption by proclaiming Christ as the way, the truth, and the life.
 

Stefcui

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Hi Aspen,

Have you read the book, When the Well Runs Dry, by Thomas Green?

Thomas Green is a Catholic priest. I read his book many years ago and I was very blessed by his insights on mysticism and prayer. There are a few on this forum that would be benefited by this book also...

An Amazon review reads:

“When the Well Runs Dry" is a book on advanced prayer, based on a lucid and accessible exposition of the works of Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, the great 15th century Carmelite mystics. Green reassures us that when we go through the "dark night", and God seems distant and cold, He is really there with us, closer than ever; He's teaching us by withdrawing His hand, just the way we teach children to ride a bike by running along beside, ready to catch them. If you're a Christian believer (Catholic or Protestant) and want to get beyond the beginnings of prayer in your walk with God, Green's book is a great place to start.”

Thanks for your post. Catholics theologians are doing a great job in recent years of educating anyone who wants to grow in their faith.

God Bless
Steve
 

aspen

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Hi Aspen,

Have you read the book, When the Well Runs Dry, by Thomas Green?

Thomas Green is a Catholic priest. I read his book many years ago and I was very blessed by his insights on mysticism and prayer. There are a few on this forum that would be benefited by this book also...

An Amazon review reads:

“When the Well Runs Dry" is a book on advanced prayer, based on a lucid and accessible exposition of the works of Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, the great 15th century Carmelite mystics. Green reassures us that when we go through the "dark night", and God seems distant and cold, He is really there with us, closer than ever; He's teaching us by withdrawing His hand, just the way we teach children to ride a bike by running along beside, ready to catch them. If you're a Christian believer (Catholic or Protestant) and want to get beyond the beginnings of prayer in your walk with God, Green's book is a great place to start.”

Thanks for your post. Catholics theologians are doing a great job in recent years of educating anyone who wants to grow in their faith.

God Bless
Steve

Haven't run into his writings yet - thanks for the tip!
 

goodshepard55

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Instead of bagging anothers church...maybe we should try to understand that church and not rely on heresay...seek out the truth, visit one a few times, try to understand we all worship the same God on here and try to show God's love toward another...being rude just makes another close off anything you have to say...We can all disagree on doctrine...we can all think we have all the answers...but guess what...we do not have the answers to all things, we are not God and we should not be judging our brother or sister on what church they want to worship in...I have been in Spirit filled Catholic churches and was stunned by the flow of the Spirit...No worship of Mary all the Glory was to the Lord...and I have been in some that were as dry as bones, not only Catholic but Baptist, Methodist as well...
 
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marksman

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Instead of bagging anothers church...maybe we should try to understand that church and not rely on heresay...seek out the truth, visit one a few times, try to understand we all worship the same God on here and try to show God's love toward another...being rude just makes another close off anything you have to say...We can all disagree on doctrine...we can all think we have all the answers...but guess what...we do not have the answers to all things, we are not God and we should not be judging our brother or sister on what church they want to worship in...I have been in Spirit filled Catholic churches and was stunned by the flow of the Spirit...No worship of Mary all the Glory was to the Lord...and I have been in some that were as dry as bones, not only Catholic but Baptist, Methodist as well...

I am not sure that this is true.
I don't worship a God that says we have to submit to a pope.
I don't worship a God that says that going to mass earns you salvation brownie points.
I don't worship a God that says I have to go to confession once a week.
I don't worship a God that says the priest has to be obeyed.
I don't worship a God that wants me to worship Mary.
I don't worship a God who calls Mary the queen of heaven.
I don't worship a God who says I have to pray to Mary.
I don't worship a God who says we get our salvation through Mary.
I don't worship a God that wants me to say the rosary.
I don't worship a God that winks at child abusing priests.
I don't worship a God who approves of graven images.
I don't worship a God who asks his priests to dress up like women.
I don't worship a God that who supports clergy that ignore scripture by being called father.
I don't worship a God that has purgatory on the calendar.
I don't worship a God that overseas a church which owns property worth billions.

As far as the heresay accusation, I worked in the catholic system for two years. I met lovely people and I met people particularly priests who thought they were God's gift to the church and had to be obeyed without question, and if you didn't, you either got overlooked for promotion or were sacked and thinking for yourself was considered a sin. One thing that did surprise me was that I have never met such foul mouthed people as some of the catholics that I worked with.

If people want to be involved with the RC church, be my guest, but I am not going to be told that what I believe is heresy if it differs with the RC church and I have to keep quiet because it might offend someoone's sensibilities.

I welcome any challenge to my faith because you don't know what you believe until you are challenged and have to give an account of your faith. If that is a problem to you, perhaps it would be better to stay out of the public arena.
 

aspen

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Instead of bagging anothers church...maybe we should try to understand that church and not rely on heresay...seek out the truth, visit one a few times, try to understand we all worship the same God on here and try to show God's love toward another...being rude just makes another close off anything you have to say...We can all disagree on doctrine...we can all think we have all the answers...but guess what...we do not have the answers to all things, we are not God and we should not be judging our brother or sister on what church they want to worship in...I have been in Spirit filled Catholic churches and was stunned by the flow of the Spirit...No worship of Mary all the Glory was to the Lord...and I have been in some that were as dry as bones, not only Catholic but Baptist, Methodist as well...

I am not sure that this is true.
I don't worship a God that says we have to submit to a pope.
I don't worship a God that says that going to mass earns you salvation brownie points.
I don't worship a God that says I have to go to confession once a week.
I don't worship a God that says the priest has to be obeyed.
I don't worship a God that wants me to worship Mary.
I don't worship a God who calls Mary the queen of heaven.
I don't worship a God who says I have to pray to Mary.
I don't worship a God who says we get our salvation through Mary.
I don't worship a God that wants me to say the rosary.
I don't worship a God that winks at child abusing priests.
I don't worship a God who approves of graven images.
I don't worship a God who asks his priests to dress up like women.
I don't worship a God that who supports clergy that ignore scripture by being called father.
I don't worship a God that has purgatory on the calendar.
I don't worship a God that overseas a church which owns property worth billions.

As far as the heresay accusation, I worked in the catholic system for two years. I met lovely people and I met people particularly priests who thought they were God's gift to the church and had to be obeyed without question, and if you didn't, you either got overlooked for promotion or were sacked and thinking for yourself was considered a sin. One thing that did surprise me was that I have never met such foul mouthed people as some of the catholics that I worked with.

If people want to be involved with the RC church, be my guest, but I am not going to be told that what I believe is heresy if it differs with the RC church and I have to keep quiet because it might offend someoone's sensibilities.

I welcome any challenge to my faith because you don't know what you believe until you are challenged and have to give an account of your faith. If that is a problem to you, perhaps it would be better to stay out of the public arena.

So you don't like it when people claim that your beliefs are heretical AND you get to be the only one here who creates long list of distorted Catholic beliefs, which you imply are heretical? Hmm.

I see you have met a few arrogant priests in your long tenure in the RC 'system'. How many arrogant ministers have you met in the Protestant / evangelical 'system'? I've certainly met my share.

Believe me, I could create a long list of distorted Protestant/evangelical beliefs and quite a few practices that actually occur, which are 'wrong', and then run them through the mud, but I would rather focus on Christ-centered beliefs we have in common.

I am not the person who started up this thread again; I am merely helping people understand the practice they are rejecting.
 

tomwebster

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The "person" that started this thread has not been back in since the OP. That should give you an idea about the poster. He's probably been laughing at you all along.
 

aspen

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The "person" that started this thread has not been back in since the OP. That should give you an idea about the poster. He's probably been laughing at you all along.

The "person" that started this thread has not been back in since the OP. That should give you an idea about the poster. He's probably been laughing at you all along.

Com'mon Tom,

We all know it is your job to laugh at everyone who posts here.....
 

goodshepard55

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Instead of bagging anothers church...maybe we should try to understand that church and not rely on heresay...seek out the truth, visit one a few times, try to understand we all worship the same God on here and try to show God's love toward another...being rude just makes another close off anything you have to say...We can all disagree on doctrine...we can all think we have all the answers...but guess what...we do not have the answers to all things, we are not God and we should not be judging our brother or sister on what church they want to worship in...I have been in Spirit filled Catholic churches and was stunned by the flow of the Spirit...No worship of Mary all the Glory was to the Lord...and I have been in some that were as dry as bones, not only Catholic but Baptist, Methodist as well...

I am not sure that this is true.
I don't worship a God that says we have to submit to a pope.
I don't worship a God that says that going to mass earns you salvation brownie points.
I don't worship a God that says I have to go to confession once a week.
I don't worship a God that says the priest has to be obeyed.
I don't worship a God that wants me to worship Mary.
I don't worship a God who calls Mary the queen of heaven.
I don't worship a God who says I have to pray to Mary.
I don't worship a God who says we get our salvation through Mary.
I don't worship a God that wants me to say the rosary.
I don't worship a God that winks at child abusing priests.
I don't worship a God who approves of graven images.
I don't worship a God who asks his priests to dress up like women.
I don't worship a God that who supports clergy that ignore scripture by being called father.
I don't worship a God that has purgatory on the calendar.
I don't worship a God that overseas a church which owns property worth billions.

As far as the heresay accusation, I worked in the catholic system for two years. I met lovely people and I met people particularly priests who thought they were God's gift to the church and had to be obeyed without question, and if you didn't, you either got overlooked for promotion or were sacked and thinking for yourself was considered a sin. One thing that did surprise me was that I have never met such foul mouthed people as some of the catholics that I worked with.

If people want to be involved with the RC church, be my guest, but I am not going to be told that what I believe is heresy if it differs with the RC church and I have to keep quiet because it might offend someoone's sensibilities.

I welcome any challenge to my faith because you don't know what you believe until you are challenged and have to give an account of your faith. If that is a problem to you, perhaps it would be better to stay out of the public arena.

This is what I am talking about, bagging a church that you have not spent time in, basing your past experinces with a few people you have met...and darling being rude to people telling them to stay out of the public arena is plain laughable...It is not a matter of offending others sensibilites, it is a matter of respecting others period..there are ways to have your say without being rude...use scripture...you know those things found in the Word of God, in a book called the Bible...that is the only Truth, that matters..not opinions of churches...God will bring His children out of churches He deems unworthy of the teaching the truth, so lets leave God to do His will, and try to teach others the truth from His Holy Word...that is how to bring people to the truth, not by making a list of everything that is wrong in a church...
 
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Stefcui

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This is what I am talking about, bagging a church that you have not spent time in, basing your past experinces with a few people you have met...and darling being rude to people telling them to stay out of the public arena...

Amen!

Steve
 

marksman

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This is what I am talking about, bagging a church that you have not spent time in, basing your past experinces with a few people you have met...

Dear O me, lets try again. I SPENT TWO YEARS, NO THREE, WORKING IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC SYSTEM, therefore......I am not bagging a church I have not spent time in and basing my past experiences with a few people I met. I MET HUNDREDS OF THEM. There were nearly 200 in the section I worked in.
 

Stefcui

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I am not bagging a church I have not spent time in and basing my past experiences with a few people I met.

I agree with you too. I get caught between the fine line of bagging and exposing... We are called to expose error, otherwise what is the point of light if it does not dispel the darkness. I find this line hard to balance.

God Bless
Steve
 

marksman

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I don't like what I wrote here...it is offensive...please forgive me

The truth is ALWAYS offensive to someone. As Winston Churchill said " Do you have enemies? Good, that means you are doing something right."
 

Hollyrock

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The truth is ALWAYS offensive to someone. As Winston Churchill said " Do you have enemies? Good, that means you are doing something right."
With all due respect to the late great Winston Churchill, I want any truth that I speak to be spoken in love...period
 

lawrance

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The truth is ALWAYS offensive to someone. As Winston Churchill said " Do you have enemies? Good, that means you are doing something right."
He was not a Christian and i cant find any thing that shows he is a true believer in Christ at all.
He was only a full on freemason, but that has noting to do with Jesus Christ at all does it.

Enemies ? boy making enemies of other Christians is not what Jesus was on about.
 

marksman

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Enemies ? boy making enemies of other Christians is not what Jesus was on about.

Sorry mate, but I live in the real world. I have read about 60 books in the last 10 years covering church history, and it is a litany of denominations, church leaders and individuals fighting each other.

Maybe Jesus was not on about that but his so called church definitely was and is. Today, you can make enemies without really trying. You can say something about homosexuality, pointing out what the scriptures say and the pro homosexual clergy will bag you for it. You can say that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and the ecumaniacs will bag you for being so intolerant.

So I will stand by Churchill's sentiments, who after all saved a nation from nazi oppression. Who have you saved in that way?

With all due respect to the late great Winston Churchill, I want any truth that I speak to be spoken in love...period

With all due respects, whether truth is spoken in love or not, it will still be offensive to someone as my previous post illustrates. My fellowship is offensive to a lot of people because we are not "nice" and "religious" as we cater for the marginalised and disposessed who are not welcome in our local churches as they do not fit the image.
 

lawrance

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Sorry mate, but I live in the real world. I have read about 60 books in the last 10 years covering church history, and it is a litany of denominations, church leaders and individuals fighting each other.

Maybe Jesus was not on about that but his so called church definitely was and is. Today, you can make enemies without really trying. You can say something about homosexuality, pointing out what the scriptures say and the pro homosexual clergy will bag you for it. You can say that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and the ecumaniacs will bag you for being so intolerant.

So I will stand by Churchill's sentiments, who after all saved a nation from nazi oppression. Who have you saved in that way?



With all due respects, whether truth is spoken in love or not, it will still be offensive to someone as my previous post illustrates. My fellowship is offensive to a lot of people because we are not "nice" and "religious" as we cater for the marginalised and disposessed who are not welcome in our local churches as they do not fit the image.
Fact is mate that people like Churchill caused the war and he did all he could to start it, and in the end the poor poms have only payed the stupid war off. what a toss he was and a bloody dictator, our aussie PM was so afraid of him as was all the others in his own government. and the whole Nazi thing would not of came about due to dog cunning of people like WC and even the King said the the initials WC ( water closet ) were appropriate.
That mongrel got a lot of our Aussies killed and the way he used them is the lowest of low.
That WC and his mob could of stopped all the problems with Poland and Germany easy as, but that was not his intentions.

As for your 60 books the fact is that this has noting to do with Christ at all.