Just heard about the rosary....

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Mungo

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Commonly known as " the great hallel" Psalm 136 was sung during the period of the great biblical feasts and high times...At the end of of David's life; Solomon - at the dedication of the Temple [2Chron. 7:3-6] the armies of Jehoshaphat [2Chron. 20:19,21] the men of Hezekiah [2 Chron. 29,30,31],and the days of Ezra. 2,6

What I am saying is that you cannot use this verse as a qualifier of repetitive prayer...because it ain't...it is praise unto the Lord for his mercy endures forever ^_^

Shalom!!!

Not repetative or not a prayer?

If it is not repetative how is repeating the same thing 26 times (every other line) not repetative.

If not a prayer why is it not a prayer?

What narrow definition of prayer do you have?

If it is part of the great Hallel then Jesus would have said/sung it after the Last Supper.
 

Angelina

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Psalms 136 and Revelation 4, that you have quoted are songs unto the Lord...songs of worship and praise and glory and honor unto God. They have nothing to do with our conversation... :huh:

If it is part of the great Hallel then Jesus would have said/sung it after the Last Supper.

...when the Lamb [which was lain] entered Heaven....myriads of angels, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders sang a new song...Revelation 5:6-14

This is what we have been discussing

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

...you said...
It’s not repetitious prayer that Jesus was condemning it was the empty babbling of the pagans.

How did you get that out of the verse above??? :huh:


Blessings!!!
 

Mungo

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Psalms 136 and Revelation 4, that you have quoted are songs unto the Lord...songs of worship and praise and glory and honor unto God. They have nothing to do with our conversation... :huh:



...when the Lamb [which was lain] entered Heaven....myriads of angels, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders sang a new song...Revelation 5:6-14

This is what we have been discussing

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

...you said...
It’s not repetitious prayer that Jesus was condemning it was the empty babbling of the pagans.


How did you get that out of the verse above??? :huh:


Blessings!!!


In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words. (NAB)

And when you ptay, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard by their many words.(NIV)

When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. (NLT)

When you pray, don’t babble like the idolaters,since they imagine they’ll be heard for their many words.(HCSB)
 

Selene

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Jesus was about to die on the cross on our behalf. He was praying to his Father. This has nothing to do with those who pray repetitious prayers.. Three usually represents completeness or divine perfection. God answered him by his situation remaining the same, after Jesus prayed the third time...He was to fulfill Gods plan for him as the sacrificial lamb on behalf of the world.

Jesus gives us an example on how we are to pray...

Matthew 6
[sup]6 [/sup]But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. [sup]7 [/sup]And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
[sup]8 [/sup]“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

[sup]9[/sup]In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
[sup]10 [/sup]Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
[sup]11 [/sup]Give us this day our daily bread.
[sup]12 [/sup]And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
[sup]13 [/sup]And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.

For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

My Catholic friend, uses the rosary to pray the above prayer and then the "Hail Mary prayer." then repeats the above prayer again...flicking each bead with the thumb [which represents each prayer said]. When she reaches a point in the beads [which depicts a saint, inset] she prays to that saint and other various saints that have gone into heaven according to how the beads are set out..I would not consider this to be fervent prayer but rather a ritual...They are not prayers inspired by the heart through the Holy Spirit as such but something that has been learned by rote.

James 5 gives us an example of fervent prayers. They usually involve others....

[sup]13 [/sup]Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. [sup]14 [/sup]Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. [sup]15 [/sup]And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. [sup]16 [/sup]Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. [sup]17 [/sup]Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. [sup]18 [/sup]And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

Shalom!!!

Whatever Jesus did is an example. He prayed fervantly in the Garden of Gethsamane. We pray the rosary usually during funerals with the grieving family. When a family loses a loved one, they are suffering, and the rosary is usually said during those times. Also, for your information, the rosary started out as saying the same pslams over and over and over by monks. That's the history of the rosary.

Giving God glory is not repetitious prayer when it is inspired by individual hearts....it is worship unto the Lord.

The prayers in the Psalms are repeated over and over. They are also fervant prayers. To say that it's okay for the people of the Old Testament to say the Psalms over and over is okay, but not the rosary is prejudice. If you look at the history of the rosary, that is where it came from....the Psalms. According to the weblink below:

The rosary is a form of combined prayer and meditation that has been around for over 1200 years. The origin of the rosary dates back to the ninth century where Irish monks would recite and chant the 150 Psalms of the Bible as a major part of their worship. People living near the monasteries were drawn towards this beautiful and harmonious devotion, and they became very eager to join in with the monks' prayers.

Unfortunately, the people were not able to adapt to this form of prayer because the psalms were very hard to memorize and printed copies of the psalms were not readily available. As a result, it was suggested to the people outside the monastery that they recite a series of 150 "Our Father" prayers in place of the psalms.


 
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Angelina

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They're actually called "fervant prayer".....the kind of prayer that Jesus prayed over and over the whole night when He was in the Garden of Gethsamane.

Half an hour of Our Father and Hail Mary is not fervent prayer...it is prayer by rote...

To say that it's okay for the people of the Old Testament to say the Psalms over and over is okay, but not the rosary is prejudice.
They are singing..... If the Catholic Church chooses to use the Rosary thing as a form of meditation, that's fine...but please don't try to make out that it is more than it actually is...It is a ritualistic form of meditation by rote, adopted by the Catholic Church...

There are differing views on the 'history of the rosary. The exact origin of the Rosary as a prayer is less than clear and subject to debate among scholars...

According to tradition, the rosary was given to Saint Dominic in an apparition by the Blessed Virgin Mary in the year 1214 in the church of Prouille. This Marian apparition received the title of Our Lady of the Rosary.Despite the popularity of Blessed Alanus's story about the origins of the rosary, there has never been found any historical evidence positively linking St. Dominic to the rosary.

During the middle ages, evidence suggests that both the Our Father and the Hail Mary were recited with prayer beads....
In the 12th century, the rule of the English anchorites, the Ancrene Wisse, specified how groups of 50 Hail Marys were to be broken into five decades of ten Hail Marys each.[sup] [/sup]Gradually, the Hail Mary came to replace the Our Father as the prayer most associated with beads. Eventually, each decade came to be preceded by an Our Father, which further mirrored the structure of the monastic Divine Office.
The practice of meditation during the praying of the Hail Marys is attributed to Dominic of Prussia (1382–1460), a Carthusian monk, who called it "Life of Jesus Rosary"

http://en.wikipedia....y_of_the_rosary

Interesting... :huh:

Shalom!!!
 

aspen

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I think you are refusing to see any similarity between repetition in worship and repetition in the rosary, Angelina.

Repeating a pray or a song is the same thing.

'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty; who was, who is, who is to come' is the never ending prayer found in Revelation - is that vain repetition?
 

Angelina

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I think you are refusing to see any similarity between repetition in worship and repetition in the rosary, Angelina.
Repeating a pray or a song is the same thing.
'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty; who was, who is, who is to come' is the never ending prayer found in Revelation - is that vain repetition?

Do you really want to go down this road aspen??? :huh:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

A Roman Catholic legend states that through Saint Dominic and Blessed Alan de Rupe the Blessed Virgin Mary made fifteen specific promises to Christians who pray the rosary

I have a problem with Mary's 15 promises made to those who pray the Rosary...I have underlined them for your convenience... :)
  1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.
  2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.
  3. The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
  4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the heart of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
  5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the rosary shall not perish.
  6. Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries, shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
  7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
  8. Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
  9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.
  10. The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.
  11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.
  12. All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
  13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
  14. All who recite the rosary are my sons, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ.
  15. Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.
http://en.wikipedia....rosary_promises

Shalom!!!
 

Mungo

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Do you really want to go down this road aspen??? :huh:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

A Roman Catholic legend states that through Saint Dominic and Blessed Alan de Rupe the Blessed Virgin Mary made fifteen specific promises to Christians who pray the rosary

I have a problem with Mary's 15 promises made to those who pray the Rosary...I have underlined them for your convenience... :)
  1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.
  2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.
  3. The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
  4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the heart of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
  5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the rosary shall not perish.
  6. Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries, shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
  7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
  8. Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
  9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.
  10. The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.
  11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.
  12. All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
  13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
  14. All who recite the rosary are my sons, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ.
  15. Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.
http://en.wikipedia....rosary_promises

Shalom!!!

You answered that one yourself: - "A Roman Catholic legend"

Are we into discussing legends now?
 

aspen

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Repeating a catholic prayer is the same as repeating the never ending prayer or some verse of a song during worship service - it is all prayer. And Mungo is right you are bringing up a legend and presenting as official teaching on the Rosary.
 

Angelina

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Ohhh...If you say so...now please tell me which one is truth and which is not so that people may be able to determine how God the Father and the Son fits into it all??? :huh:

Shalom!!!
 

aspen

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Angelina said:
Ohhh...If you say so...now please tell me which one is truth and which is not so that people may be able to determine how God the Father and the Son fits into it all??? :huh:

Shalom!!!
Mormonism is a legend of Protestantism - I do not hold you responsible for their teachings.
 

Angelina

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So...the 15 promises of Mary is a legend of the Catholic Church - what does that mean for you??? :huh: who do you hold responsible for that teaching?
 

Mungo

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So...the 15 promises of Mary is a legend of the Catholic Church - what does that mean for you??? :huh: who do you hold responsible for that teaching???

Didn't say a legend of the Catholic Church. That implies there is something official about it.

You quoted Wikipedia that states it is a Roman Catholic legend.

If you want to know what Wikipedia means by a Roman Catholic legend then ask Wikipedia.

And the 15 promises of Mary is not a doctrine of the Catholic Church.
 

Mungo

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Angelina said:
and you agreed....
I agree it’s a legend


Angelina said:
Where do you think I got this from... :huh:

Bless ya!
And according to Wikipedia Alanus de Rupe had a vision of St. Dominic being given these promises. And it states:

“St. Alanus published nothing during his lifetime, but immediately after his death the brethren of his province were commanded to collect his writings for publication. These were edited at different times and have occasioned much controversy among scholars.”

And:

“His relations of the visions and sermons of Dominic, supposed to have been revealed to Alanus, are, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia not to be regarded as historical.”

Not historical = legend.

Got it?

It’s not something I would hang my hat on.
 

Angelina

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And the 15 promises of Mary is not a doctrine of the Catholic Church.
According to the link given by Selene...it is

http://www.erosary.c...out/history.htm

Around the year 1700, the thoughts used in the rosary started to become narratives. St. Louis de Montfort composed the most common set of narratives that eventually became used as meditations for each decade of the rosary. These narratives were divided into five Joyful, five Sorrowful, and five Glorious meditations that are referred to as "mysteries". Just recently, in 2002, Pope John Paul II introduced another set of five meditations referred to as the "Luminous Mysteries"
 

Mungo

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According to the link given by Selene...it is

http://www.erosary.c...out/history.htm

The link is not to any official document of the Church. It just gives one persons understanding of the history of the Rosary.

You would also appear to be confusing the 15 mysteries of the rosary which are meditated upon with the 15 promises of Mary.

The only commonality between the two is the number 15.
 

Angelina

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You would also appear to be confusing the 15 mysteries of the rosary which are meditated upon with the 15 promises of Mary.
noted...

PS: please note the bottom of the page on this link... Selene gave this link to explain a brief history of the Rosary... Are you now saying that this is not true of the Catholic Church belief??? :huh:

Rosary Promise #6: "Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life." See also: 15 Promises of the Rosary...
 

aspen

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The purpose of the Rosary is to meditate on the life and ministry of Jesus - it is also to ask Mary to pray for an intention. There is absolutely nothing wrong with either purpose. Over the last 800 years or so, people have added different traditions to the prayer, which are often based on private or public visions or messages they have received from God or Mary. None of these traditions are required to pray the Rosary; nor is devotion to Mary required to be a Catholic Christian.
 

Angelina

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There is something wrong if you believe that adhering to the practice of reciting the Rosary will earn yourself a place in heaven or that you will merit a higher degree in glory or that you become a child of Mary's along with Jesus Christ... as stated in the promises... :huh: Ohhh yeah! and...praying to Mary is not biblical...

nor is devotion to Mary required to be a Catholic Christian

Really!!! Do the Catholics know that... :eek:

Bless ya!!! ;)