The Seven Churches

Steve said:

Warning: My previous posts caused some teeth to rattle, and so might these...

So who specifically are the seven churches if they represent today’s modern Churches? Are Catholics included? Are Pentecostals included? Are JW’s and SDA’s included? Who is excluded? On what basis are some churches included and others excluded?

My personal views of this will not be agreed on by those who fly the flag of any particular denomination. The Catholics formed their opinions 1600 years ago, and they will not change their views now. The Reformers developed their opinions 300-400 years ago, and they will not change their views now. The JW’s, SDA’s, and Pentecostals formed their opinions 100-200 years ago, and they will not change their views now. So in short, most denominations will disagree with my views, which are different and new.

I believe that “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) This is my confession of faith. However, “God’s solid foundation remains standing, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from evil.” (2 Timothy 2:19) So confessing Jesus requires certain expectations from us; and as every denomination believes that they are fulfilling those expectations, all denominations are saved, and all are part of the true church. “You are saved through faith”. All denominations, though, are called to repent! That means that they aal have a ticket to the wedding feast; but that does not mean they will be allowed in. Without our proper dress, given to us by the Holy Spirit, we are not fit to enter.

All denominations proclaim that we should all believe the same things; but the description of the Seven Churches in Revelation shows that we DO NOT all believe the same thing.

The Catholics (and Orthodox churches) are the first international sect of Christendom; and this is the Church of Ephesus.

“I know your works, and your labor, and your patience…”

They have been here the longest, they still exist, and the recognition of their longevity is mentioned.

The Protestants (Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, etc.) are the second international sect of Christendom, and they are the church of Smyrna.

“Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days: be you faithful to death, and I will give you a crown of life.”

These churches and Christians will undergo a special tribulation in England. This is not because they deserve it, but because they are in a country that will yet make a spectacle out of Christians in persecution.

The Millennial sects (such as SDA’s, JW’s, Christadelphians, etc.) are the third international sect of Christendom, and they are the Church of Pergamum.

“You have there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam… So have you also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.”

These churches introduce heresy on a large scale. They have doctrines that the other churches hate and cannot tolerate.

The Pentecostals are the fourth international sect of Christendom, and they are the church of Thyatira.

“You suffer that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.”

These churches introduce immorality and “gifts” that cause a great deal of confusion, liberalism and unrepentant attitudes.

The Messianic Jewish-Christians are the fifth international sect of Christendom, and they are the church of Sardis.

“I know your works, that you have a name that you live, and are dead.”

The valley of dry bones is applied to this church, that they now have been resurrected in these end times. The fact is, they are dead in their sins and lack of repentance.

The Repentant Church is the sixth international brotherhood, and they are the church of Philadelphia.

“Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come on all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth.”

These ones have repented of their churches, their immorality, their falseness; their doctrines, and their hatred. They alone are preserved through the great tribulation. They represent all of those in the former churches who have repented. The two witnesses will call Christians out for salvation, and these ones alone will respond to the calling of God’s anointed ones.

The Unrepentant Christians are the last association of Christians, and they are the church of Laodicea.

“So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.”

These ones have not repented of their churches, their immorality, their falseness; their doctrines, or their hatred. They are all of the previous churches labelled into one church, for all the wheat and weeds will be separated, and the wheat will be in one pile, while the weeds in another.

The two witnesses will divide the churches into sheep and goats; or at least the separation will occur during their ministry. There are Pharisees among us who will stick to their church views even when “fire comes down from heaven”. Although these two have been appointed by God, the Pharisee-Christians will dispute and argue with them, causing confusion and complacency among the majority.

This is my opinion. I have left the stones down by your feet, and I am ready to be stoned.

God Bless
Steve

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Not throwing stones, but all that cannot be so intricately assigned to specific denominations like you've tried to do.

The real end time pattern application of Christ's seven Messages involves those things He told them to repent of that can happen within ANY... of today's denominations.

There's no way to specifically assign the end time representative of the Church of Smyrna to Englanders.

Many from all nations in the Christian west will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Christ Jesus, not just in England. It's even going to occur in your own country of Australia, even in all nations.

Thus the application of Christ's seven Messages are not specific to geographical locations for the end of days, but according to the subjects which Christ covered in His seven Messages.

(As far as your foul words against me concerning the Gap idea of Genesis as being heritical, and your pointed reference to British-Israelitism, you don't know what you're talking about, and obviously are not well-studied in Scripture enough to even know about it.)

Steve said:

... I believe British-Israelite theology is heresy, and I would expect particular opposition from British advocates who hold England in such high regard. The problem with people who belong to a sect or a cult on these forums; they do not come out and identify themselves... they just sow their discordant and heretical views without anyone being aware that their polluted ideas come from a cult. I wanted to expose where your teaching came from. No hard feelings. I like you personally, and I think you are very intelligent.

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You can believe anything you want, that does not make what you believe the truth. You believing something is heresy does not make that thing or idea heresy. You apparently have not studied the migrations of the tribes of Israel. There are apparently, many things you are unaware of as far as the history of our people, Israel.

Steve said:

Hi Veteran,

On face value, what you are saying is true. I do not believe, however, that England alone will be persecuted; but that England will actually be destroyed. Persecutions will still occur in other locations. Christian institutions from England, particularly the Anglican establishment, will no longer exist in any strength. This great mountain will be thrown into the sea.

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Subdued only, not destroyed, like the rest of the historical Christian west, including Australia, the U.S., etc. And the mainstream Church organizations are going to be a part of the religous working of the final beast system, as their takeover by Christ's enemies has already started today. Those are included as the 'synagogues' where many of Christ's faithful will be delivered up to in the last days outside Jerusalem, to give a Testimony for Christ Jesus (Mark 13).

I believe that these prophecies of the seven churches are not isolated in revelations alone; but that the same prophecies exist elsewhere in scripture as well (particularly in the Minor Prophets). In other prophecies there are more details that unfold greater clarity… I have made my estimations based on many different prophecies, not just from revelation. Revelation just so happens to develop the same themes that were spoken of elsewhere.

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You'd have to go deeper in detail about that for us to understand how you mean that. What I see you trying to do is assign according to a secularist understanding of Scripture about the seven Churches, since you point to specific Church denominations which I don't see our Lord Jesus doing in Revealtion 2 & 3.

The other prophecies are way out of the scope of this discussion, and they require a great deal of scrutiny of prophecies in Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the Minor Prophets. I have spent several years examining these prophecies, and I have produced a three column bible of the Minor Prophets, with the Masoretic, Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls. My observations are based on many of the scriptures that have variants; I have found these variants to be keys for further scrutiny. One example is the prophecies relative to Tyre; the mountain thrown into the sea (variant: Carthage).

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The only way I've found those old prophecies to be relevant for end time Churches is in relation to historical Israel, their failings, God's protection upon His elect among them, and the false ones that crept in among Israel to lead them into pagan worship and to fall away to the world, like how Apostle Paul taught those OT examples are "ensamples" for us upon whom the end of the world has come. But none of that is specific enough to assign to specific Christian denominations as you have done, since one can find where all Christian denominations contain those who have fallen away, while also containing those who remain in The Faith of Jesus Christ who are His elect. The kind of assigning you've done can only lead to political agenda separations between Christian denominations, instead of bringing us all together in Christ Jesus like we're supposed to be.

Perhaps one day we could explore these subjects further... but then again, perhaps not: obviously I am "not well-studied in Scripture enough to even know about it." Yes, I believe British-Israelite theology is heresy, and I would expect particular opposition from British advocates who hold England in such high regard. The problem with people who belong to a sect or a cult on these forums; they do not come out and identify themselves... they just sow their discordant and heretical views without anyone being aware that their polluted ideas come from a cult. I wanted to expose where your teaching came from. No hard feelings. I like you personally, and I think you are very intelligent.

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I don't believe in 'British-Israelite' theology per se. I hold to what God's Word reveals about Christ's establishing of His Church especially in the Christian West per history, and that certainly is not just about Roman Church history and men that seek to lord it over all other Churches. God's prophecies about the "house of Judah" and "house of Israel" do involve Britain, but not just them, but the whole history of the western Christian nations, for that's the "nation" which Christ was referring to in Matt.21 that He said He would move His vineyard to, and it would produce its fruits. The main area on earth where that historically manifested is among the western Christian nations of Asia Minor and Europe. And it is still... manifesting today among Christ's elect servants that keep the Faith in the west along with believers in all other nations that also keep the Faith of Jesus Christ. Along with that went God's birthright promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and in the Christian west is where those promises manifested after Christ's crucifixion, and still are today. That part of prophecy you apparently have missed, as many have that instead listen to blind hirelings and the crept in unawares among Christ's Churches. And it's understanding about this that changes many things involving the end time events involving Christ's Church everywhere.

Steve said:

Hi Veteran,

I am happy to miss this part of the “white Israel” theology. I find this message extremely offensive to black and Asian nations who do not belong, in your estimation, to the “true tribes of Israel”. The gospel that I understand and believe in is intended for every nation; the bible was not written for the white nations only. The way you reinvent the gospel to apply the prophecies to the lost tribes of Israel is heretical. This is NOT the teaching that was passed down through the Apostles. It is alien to the entire history of the church, and it is part of the heretical movement belonging to the Church of Pergamum.

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The basis of the chosen nation of Israel per God's choosing never had anything to do with your so-called views of white supremist attitudes. You probably offend The LORD and Jews by saying that more than it could ever affect me. It's because I also agree all peoples that have believed on Jesus Christ are to become one in Him, and yet God chose the nation of Israel for that specific purpose to take The Gospel to all peoples and nations, using mostly Israelites to do it, since He chose them for that duty first.

And yes, prophecy regarding The Gospel of Jesus Christ involving the nation of Israel was passed down through Christ's Apostles, especially Apostle Paul, like Romans 9 through11 for one area of example. Paul often referred to OT prophecy about Israel when preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Too bad you don't care to pay attention to that, because without being aware of it, you won't be properly able to determine much prophecy for the last days, which involves all nations, and not just Israelites.

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You have some people there who follow the teaching of Balaam, who instructed Balak to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel so they would eat food sacrificed to idols and commit sexual immorality. In the same way, there are also some among you who follow the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore, repent! If not, I will come against you quickly and make war against those people with the sword of my mouth.”

Balaam was a false prophet; as was Joseph Smith; Charles Taze Russell; Ellen White; Herbert Armstrong; and E. Raymond Capt. These hated doctrines, hated by Christ and all other churches, bring divisions and hostility among Christians. I pray the eyes of your heart might find understanding.

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There are many false prophets among the Jews especially, like Apostle Paul said (Titus 1). And I've found it's mostly Jews that hate the Bible teaching of God scattering the ten tribes of Israel to the west in forming the historical western Christian nations. Pagans who still follow the Baalism of your above post Scripture hate it too. But Christian pastors within many of the Protestant denominations do not hate the ten tribes Message from God's Word, nor do many of different Gentile peoples. Why? Because it reveals that what God said He would do, He accomplished. And those learned pastors also know it's important in order to determine just what prophecies are meant for whom during the last days til Christ returns. And that's... especially why false prophets hate the teaching, because they don't want Christ's Church to know what is to befall whom in the last days! Otherwise they would regard even Jacob's prophecies to his twelve sons in Genesis 49 specifically for the last days.

But those like yourself, if you want to remain ignorant of a lot of God's Word, then so be it, because this matter is written of a lot in God's Word, for past, present, and future. And recognizing it as written actually helps prevent the arising of false prophets among Christ's Church who would rather create and teach their 'own' doctrines outside of God's Word, trying to form their own versions of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, just like what false Jews have done throughout history after Christ's crucifixion.

I believe Israel is the people of God it has noting to do with race at all when Jesus Christ came to show us all the way.
God knows his people they are the ones that abide in him.
The goats are ones with some faith but are lacking, is that true Steve.

We all seem to have our own ideas about the seven churches...here is my rendition....

In the days when John was on the isle of Patmos the Christian church was in its infancy. The seven churches had their roots in Jesus Christ's accurate teaching which was still clear and clean and righteous. But Almighty God knew that the many Christian paths that are with us today would spread out from this place highlighted as the seven churches and in due course would become steeped in iniquity, false teaching, blasphamies and totally different from how Jesus taught it. Now, we are in the last days and Jesus is saying to the remnants of those seven churches...you have changed and not what you should be...but there are still those amongst you which have a desire for accurate teaching. Turn back...cleeve to what Jesus taught...offload those who follow vanity in God's name and become as you were in the beginning. The scattered churches will then come back to you and one church will come into fruition before the 'great tribulation' strikes.

Shalom, all.

Why is it that people always assign eras, denominations, etc. to these seven ekkleesiai? They were seven LITERAL ekkleesiai, seven LITERAL called-out assemblies! You can go to the ruins of the cities today! They are located in southwest Turkey in the province then known as Asia close to the Aegean Sea in which Yochanan (John) was exiled on Patmos Island!

Why do people always resort to saying "this means that" and "that means this?" Not all of the Disclosure of Yeshua` haMashiach (the Revelation of Jesus the Christ) is figurative! To the contrary, much of it is to be taken literally, and why shouldn't it? Figurative language is useless unless the key is given!

Yeshua` was talking to seven, independent groups of people located in seven different towns: Efesos, Smurnas, Pergamos, Thuateirois, Sardeis, Filadelfeia, and Laodikeia. Furthermore, He was not talking directly to those independent groups of people but rather to their leaders, their "messengers," their pastors!

Therefore, there is nothing within these seven letters that is directly applicable to any other group of people! In fact, the only way that the things said to a particular group could apply to another group of people is if the second group has some of their traits. THEN, and then only, may some of the warnings and encouragements said to one of these seven groups of people apply to another! However, even under those circumstances the particulars, the specific warnings or encouragements, do NOT apply.

So, for instance, when Yeshua` had Yochanan to write:

"Write this to the messenger of the called-out [assembly] in Efesos:

He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the middle of the seven golden menorahs, says these things: I know your deeds, your work, and your patience, because you can't stand those who are evil and have tested them who say they're emissaries ahd they're not and you have exposed them to be liars, and your patience, [because] you have carried on by my authority, have labored, and have not given up.

However, I have something against you (singular), because you have sent away your first love. Therefore, remember where you have fallen from and turn around and do the original deeds; but, if you do not turn around, I will come to you and remove your lamp out of its place.

On the other hand, you do [at least] have this: you hate the deeds of the Nikolaitans (rulers/conquerors over people), which I also hate.

He who has an ear [for hearing], let him hear what the Breath says to the called-out [assemblies]: To him who subdues, I will give him [fruit] to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Park of Elohiym."

Some of the general things may also apply to someone else, general things like don't put up with those who are evil and test those who claim to be emissaries or missionaries who aren't doing what they're supposed to do and exposing them for liars. These are things that ANYONE can emulate and should!

However, some of the specific things may not be a problem within your particular called-out assembly: For instance, you may not have a pastor who has sent away his first love, nor do many of us have Nikolaitans within our assemblies. These are specifics that probably do not apply to other assemblies, particularly assemblies today.

One must be more careful in the handling of God's Word, particularly if they intend to teach others what they are claiming God's Word says!

Steve said:

Hi Mr Rosenberger,

Yes, this is basically true as far as I am concerned. I object to the British-Israel view because it reinterprets the entire bible from a “white-supremacy” view. They are also extremy racist. Veteran may be an exception to the rule; but most are this way. They believe the prophecies in Genesis 49, and elsewhere, are related to the nations of the world today, and their crafty manipulation of history has pitted those nations to all be white Caucasian nations. This is a corruption of history as well as scripture, and it puts them in the same interpretative camp as the Mormons. They have crept into many mainstream churches today with this teaching, and a few ignorant pastors have conceded to these fallacies, which they then go and use this concession as a reference for their orthodoxy.

All churches are becoming more and more mixed with different colours and flavours… As Angelina said, the Pentecostal movement has migrated into Anglican churches. This is the nature of all seven churches though. All seven churches have a little bit of Catholic in them; all now have a little bit of grace teaching; all have a little bit of heresy; and healing, and Zionism… All of these churches belong to Christ, yet they have different dogmas and traditions. All of these churches, which represent Catholics, Anglicans, Pentecostals, etc, are all called on to repent. That means they all contain good, and they all contain bad. They are not called to abandon their churches, but to repent. They cannot and will not repent if they do not believe they are in the wrong... the first step of repentance is to acknowledge your wrong.

The Book of Revelation was written to these seven churches (“John to the seven churches which are in Asia.” Rev 1:4). The message was to explain things that were going to take place in the future. Christ is explaining to us what we would become, and why we need to repent. These seven “Asian” churches were not relevant in church history; for they were intended to represent the world-wide churches when Christ returns. This is very clear, because Jesus told the churches to repent; otherwise He would come upon them as a thief, etc… Christ made four separate allusions to His return, so the churches had to be present when Christ returns.

So again, Christ is explaining the state and nature of the churches at the point of His return. If Pentecostals are disciples, then they are included; if Catholics are disciples, then they are included, etc.

Ezekiel Chapter 34 is an example of the separation of sheep and goats that applies to our time: “thus says the Lord God, Behold, I will distinguish between sheep and sheep, and between rams and he-goats.” (LXX vs 17). The separation you mentioned is a little more involved, as can be seen from Ezekiel. Ezekiel and Jeremiah foreshadow the two witnesses. The Ezekiel type person has a ministry particularly to the seven churches, while the Jeremiah type person has a ministry particularly to the nations.

God Bless
Steve

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That kind of view is to essentially deny... the history of the western Christian nations of Asia Minor and Europe from their inception, and their foundations in Christ Jesus by Christ's Apostles.