Everyone since the cross does does enter heaven upon death, since Jesus has now opened the way. Did you misunderstand me, too?
What Will We Be Doing In Heaven ?
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Everyone since the cross does does enter heaven upon death, since Jesus has now opened the way. Did you misunderstand me, too?
Actually, I don't think I did misunderstand you... are you trying to say that no one ever goes to heaven? Or no one goes to heaven until the first resurrection? You re-phrased the question and asked: "Where does Scripture teach that Christians go to heaven when they die?" I am still not sure of your original question... I agree will your assessment if you mean that it is not immediately when they die.
Steve
Hi Stone,
I didn't misunderstand you, I'm wondering where Scripture teaches that.
HI Steve,
I rephrased the question because I wanted to stay on par with Stone. To answer your question, no, I don't think heaven is the eternal abode of the Christian. As I said, I don't see anything in Scripture that teaches Christians go to heaven, at any time. Granted there are passages in which that can be inferred, but it is not stated or given as Christian teaching in Scripture. On the other hand a study of Paul's writings shows that he taught the eternal inheritance of the Christian is the eternal inheritance of the Land promised to Abraham. God promised to give the Promised Land to Abraham as an "Everlasting" possession. In Acts 7 Steven says that Abraham never received any of not even a foothold. That means for God's promise to be realized Abraham must be resurrected and given that land, because God promised it to Abraham himself and to Isaac, and Jacob, and to Abraham's Seed. The Jews understood this as pertaining to them collectively as a people, Abraham's offspring. However, In Galatians 3 Paul is explaining how the Law (through which the Israelites gained access to the land) did not overturn the promise (eternal inheritance of the land) made to Abraham. In explaining this Paul says the promise was made to Abraham and to his Seed. He points out that when God made that promise he said Seed, singular, not plural, "A" seed. He then goes on to say in verse 16 that that Seed is Christ. He goes one to say that those who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ and are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.
[sup]13[/sup] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[sup]14[/sup] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[sup]15[/sup] Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. {covenant: or, testament}
[sup]16[/sup] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
[sup]17[/sup] And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
[sup]18[/sup] For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[sup]19[/sup] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[sup]20[/sup] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
[sup]21[/sup] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[sup]22[/sup] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[sup]23[/sup] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[sup]24[/sup] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[sup]25[/sup] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[sup]26[/sup] For ye are all thchildren of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[sup]27[/sup] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[sup]28[/sup] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[sup]29[/sup] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
So Paul is teaching that the Christians, "Anchor of the Soul", which he mentions in Hebrews 6 is the promise made to Abraham and that Promise is the eternal inheritance of the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in Genesis.
[sup]14[/sup] And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
[sup]15[/sup] For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
[sup]7[/sup] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[sup]8[/sup] And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. {wherein...: Heb. of thy sojournings} (Gen 17:7-8 KJV)
Here is the first of two occurrences of the phrase the blessing of Abraham
[sup]KJV [/sup]Genesis 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.
[sup]2[/sup] Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.
[sup]3[/sup] And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; {a multitude...: Heb. an assembly of people}
[sup]4[/sup] And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV)
The phrase the Blessing of Abraham speaks of the land inheritance, and it only appears twice in the Scriptures, here and in the passage from Paul posted above.
[sup]13[/sup] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[sup]14[/sup] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:13-14 KJV)
Again this is a reference to the eternal land promise. This land was promised to Isaac and Jacob also.
The promise to Isaac,
[sup]KJV [/sup]Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
[sup]2[/sup] And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
[sup]3[/sup] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
[sup]4[/sup] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
[sup]5[/sup] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (Gen 26:1-5 KJV)
To Jacob.
[sup]10[/sup] And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. {Haran: Gr. Charran}
[sup]11[/sup] And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
[sup]12[/sup] And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
[sup]13[/sup] And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
[sup]14[/sup] And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. {spread...: Heb. break forth} (Gen 28:10-14 KJV)
This teaching is a theme through Paul’s writings, it can been seen to a great extent in Hebrews. This was also the teaching of the earliest ECF’s, those with direct connections with the apostles. I don’t really like to post links but I’ll do it here to save space since this post is rather lengthy. This is site goes into much more detail about the promised land inheritance than I can do here is a forum post. If you check the site and have questions I would be happy to address them to the best of my ability. I can’t speak on behalf of the site’s author but I have studied this in depth and think I can answer most questions you may have.
The point is that Paul does teach the eternal inheritance of the land and not an eternal abode in heaven. Since Paul teaches the eternal inheritance of the land and there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches Christians go to heaven, it seems to me Christians don’t go to heaven. In the Scriptures Paul equates the eternal land inheritance with the resurrection and the ECF’s say that all souls are contained in Hades until the resurrection, I don’t see at what point Christians would be in heaven. Isaiah 65 and 66 speak of the restoration of the earth and the new Jerusalem, John in the Revelation speaks of the holy city coming down out of heaven and says that God will dwell with man. He doesn’t say man will dwell with God. Paul also says in Romans 8 that creation awaits the manifestation of the son of God.
[sup]19[/sup] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[sup]20[/sup] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[sup]21[/sup] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom 8:19-21 KJV)
Peter also said that Jesus had to remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things.
[sup]18[/sup] But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
[sup]19[/sup] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
[sup]20[/sup] And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
[sup]21[/sup] Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
(Act 3:18-21 KJV)
So Peter is saying that this has been spoken by God through the prophets since the world began. Here is the link. There is a section called “The Hope of the Martyrs” this section contains the quotes from the ECF’s. However, I would suggest reading the entire page and the sections for a fuller understanding.
http://www.heirsofthepromise.org/
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15487-what-will-we-be-doing-in-heaven/page__view__findpost__p__143606
Ok, I still did not understand your argument. Now I do… you say no Christians, at any time, go to heaven.
Firstly, your definition of the Kingdom of Heaven is a little shaky… How can you prove that it is not a place in which the saints rule with Christ, as opposed to an abstract designation of authority?
“Rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven.” (Matthew 5:12)
This scripture says our reward is in heaven.
“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” (Matthew 22:30)
This scripture says our resurrection is in heaven (like the angels).
“This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into heaven.” (Acts 10:16)
This scripture likens the clean animals (the elect) going into heaven.
“Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.” (1 Corinthian 15:48)
This scripture says there are bodies in the resurrection designed for heaven.
“For we know that if our earthly house, the tent we live in, is dismantled, we have a building from God, a house not built by human hands, that is eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 5:1)
This scripture also says there are bodies in the resurrection designed for heaven.
“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven.” (2 Corinthians 12:2)
This scripture says that Paul went into heaven.
“he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:6)
This scripture says we are/will be seated in heaven (present and future tense).
“The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed and will bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever! Amen. (2 Timothy 4:8)
This scripture says we are brought to heaven.
These scriptures are enough. I already have shown you that the early church fathers taught this as well.
I think you have misunderstood the bible and the ECF.
BTW. Tim Warner completely misrepresents the teachings of Origen. I have read all of Origen's works, and you need to also read Rufinus and Eusebius to see how Origen's works were corrupted. Warner is using the Fathers who appear to support his theory, and he calls everyone who does not support his view "gnostics". This is a manipulative and dishonest use of the fathers. Sorry, I have invested a lot of research into this, and I know when someone is pulling my leg.
God Bless
Steve
Origen was not a Gnostic, and neither was Clement of Alexandria. Where is the evidence of this? Origen was not the first person to teach about heaven… Papias, Justin Martyr and Athenagoras all lived and died before Origen, and they all taught about heaven as our bodily destiny. They were not Gnostics either; this is an unfounded slur. Origen was not an apologist for Plato… Give me one example of this. Justin Martyr, as you should know, wrote many books exposing the errors of Plato. You need to re-read the ECF without Tim Warner in your ear.
Blessings
Steve
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Yeah, there is a difference between Neoplatonism and Gnosticism. Origen may not have been a Neoplatonist, but he certainly inspired his followers in that direction.
It certainly doesn't say anything about believers going to Hades, but it does expain how the OT saints were led out of that paradise and went to heaven now that Jesus has the keys.
Not sure I follow you here.
Yes and Jesus said when he returns His reward is with Him.
It says in the resurrection the will be “like” the angels in heaven. This doesn’t say they are in heaven.
According to Peter it was about calling the Gentiles unclean. Peter says nothing about the clean animals being like the elect.
This passages says our bodies will bear the image of the man from heaven. There’s nothing here about going to heaven.
It says the house is in the heavens, that doesn’t mean we will be. If the house refers to a literal building we know John said in the Revelation that the Holy City will descend out of heaven. If it refers to the body it says the house is in the heavens. Paul however, was not in the heavens when he wrote that.
Maybe, but if he did this doesn’t teach that heaven is the final abode of the Christian. John was also caught up in the spirit.
No, both raised and seated are indicative aorist. Your profile says you’re in Australia so I don’t think you’re writing this from heaven, therefore it must be that Paul meant something other than heaven itself. Since heavenly is an adjective and not a noun it is descriptive of something. Since it is in the neuter gender it a thing. Therefore a proper rendering would be, ‘has seated us in the heavenly things’.
He didn’t say into heaven, he said into his heavenly kingdom. Again, heavenly is an adjective not a noun. It is simply describing His kingdom, not giving its location. If I said, my Bible is a heavenly book, no one would assume I meant it was in heaven.
Steve, none of these Scriptures teaches that Christians go to heaven when they die. Don’t you think if heaven was the final abode of the Christian it would be stated in the Scriptures? I wouldn’t think it would need to be inferred. On the other hand Paul clearly tells us that the Christians hope is the is the eternal land inheritance promised to Abraham.
Steve, what are going to do with the quotes I posted from the ECF’s. Surely you can’t ignore them and then claim those you posted? You yourself spoke of how Justin’s works had been corrupted, since it appears that he quotes it both ways one way is corrupted.
How so? I showed you Paul’s argument from Genesis and his explaining how the land promise to Abraham is the Christians Anchor of the soul. I also gave you the link that showed that Irenaeus and Justin both taught this. Are you saying that both Justin and Irenaeus also misunderstood the Bible and the ECF’s and the apostles also for that matter?
Well, you’re still left with a dilemma. Irenaeus and Justin both taught the land promise to Abraham as the final abode of the Christian. Since you’ve done much research I suspect that you will seek to reconcile the differences between Irenaeus and Justin on the one hand and Origen and Clement on the other. You’ve two fathers teaching the land promise to Abraham as the final abode of the Christian and you’ve got two teaching heaven as the final abode of the Christian. They can’t both be right.
You’ve got Justin and Irenaeus, Justin in Rome and Irenaeus, connected to John through Polycarp on the one hand and on the other you’ve got Clement of Alexandria and his student Origen on the other. Both of these from the same location one taught by the other. So, if Clement is wrong it stands to reason that Origen is also. Alexandria was also known for its Gnostic influences. Irenaeus on the other hand was taught by Polycarp who was taught by John. Justin and Irenaeus are in agreement with Paul. Origen and Clement of Alexandria are not in agreement with Paul.
Here is Origen.
6. We are therefore to suppose that the saints will remain there until they recognise the twofold mode of government in those things which are performed in the air. And when I say “twofold mode,” I mean this: When we were upon earth, we saw either animals or trees, and beheld the differences among them, and also the very great diversity among men; but although we saw these things, we did not understand the reason of them; and this only was suggested to us from the visible diversity, that we should examine and inquire upon what principle these things were either created or diversely arranged. And a zeal or desire for knowledge of this kind being conceived by us on earth, the full understanding and comprehension of it will be granted after death, if indeed the result should follow according to our expectations. When, therefore, we shall have fury comprehended its nature, we shall understand in a twofold manner what we saw on earth. Some such view, then, must we hold regarding this abode in the air. I think, therefore, that all the saints who depart from this life will remain in some place situated on the earth, which holy Scripture calls paradise, as in some place of instruction, and, so to speak, class-room or school of souls, in which they are to be instructed regarding all the things which they had seen on earth, and are to receive also some information respecting things that are to follow in the future, as even when in this life they had obtained in some degree indications of future events, although “through a glass darkly,” all of which are revealed more clearly and distinctly to the saints in their proper time and place. If any one indeed be pure in heart, and holy in mind, and more practised in perception, he will, by making more rapid progress, quickly ascend to a place in the air, and reach the kingdom of heaven, through those mansions, so to speak, in the various places which the Greeks have termed spheres, i.e., globes, but which holy Scripture has called heavens; in each of which he will first see clearly what is done there, and in the second place, will discover the reason why things are so done: and thus he will in order pass through all gradations, following Him who hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, who said, “I will that where I am, these may be also.” (John 17:24) And of this diversity of places He speaks, when He says, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” He Himself is everywhere, and passes swiftly through all things; nor are we any longer to understand Him as existing in those narrow Limits in which He was once confined for our sakes, i.e., not in that circumscribed body which He occupied on earth, when dwelling among men, according to which He might be considered as enclosed in some one place.
This is what Gnosticism taught, this idea of gaining the heavens through knowledge. The Word Gnosticism comes from the Greek word for knowledge "Gnosis". The apostle John also taught that Jesus remains in the flesh.
By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, (1 John 4:2 NKJ)
In this passage John uses the Perfect tense of the verb come. The perfect tense indicates a past action in which the results continue to the present. According to this statement Jesus was still in the flesh when John wrote this passage.
Now, compare this with Irenaeus and Justin.
Irenaeus
Chap. XXXII.—In That Flesh in Which the Saints Have Suffered so Many Afflictions, They Shall Receive the Fruits of Their Labours; Especially Since All Creation Waits for This, and God Promises it to Abraham and His Seed.
1. Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum [sup]53VIII-1e-53[/sup]); and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.” (Rom. 8:19, etc.) 2. Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains stedfast. For thus He said: “Lift up thine eyes, and look from this place where now thou art, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which thou seest, I will give to thee and to thy seed, even for ever.” (Gen. 13:13, 14) And again He says, “Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto thee;” (Gen. 13:17) and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein. (Acts 7:5; Heb. 11:13) And upon the death of Sarah his wife, when the Hittites were willing to bestow upon him a place where he might bury her, he declined it as a gift, but bought the burying-place (giving for it four hundred talents of silver) from Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite. (Gen. 23:11) Thus did he await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: “I will give this land to thy seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates.” (Gen. 15:13) If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: “For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham.” (Luke 3:8) Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: “But ye, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise.” (Gal. 4:28) And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, “The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spake] of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Gal. 3:16) And again, confirming his former words, he says, “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, fore-seeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham.” (Gal. 3:6, etc.) Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any [sub]562 [/sub]inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” (Matt. 5:5)
Chap. XXXIII.—Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared That He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father’s Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.
1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” (Matt. 26:27) Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.” (Ps. 104:30) He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.
This is just what Paul taught.
Justin,
Chap. LXXX.—The Opinion of Justin with Regard to the Reign of a Thousand Years. Several Catholics Reject It.
And Trypho to this replied, “I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?” Then I answered, “I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you. For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistae, Meristae, Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.
Chap. LXXXI.—He Endeavours to Prove This Opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse.
“For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: ‘For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent [shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, saith the Lord.’ (Isa. 65:17 to end) Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, ‘According to the days of the tree [of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound’ obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,’ (Ps. 90:4; 2 Pet. 3:8) is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.’ (Luke 20:35)
According to what Justin and Irenaeus are teaching Origen is wrong. Either way what they are teaching is vastly different than what Origen said.
Hi Stone,
The passage simply says they would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. There is nothing about going to heaven. I've pointed out that David said, 'if I make my bed in Hades you are there'. The Lord is omnipresent, so wherever one goes the Lord is there. One needn't go to heaven to be with the Lord.
I've posted the passages from Origen, Justin and Irenaeus, they are quite different. They can't both be right, which one is wrong?
Butch, heaven is not the final abode for us as believers--you are right there. We will live in the New Earth, and the city of God will come down to us OUT OF HEAVEN.
In the meantime, all believers who die go to that place prepared for them by Christ---heaven and that city that is there. This is until the resurrection when they receive their new glorified bodies and those of us who are still alive will, too.
John 14:1-4
[sup]1[/sup] “Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me. [sup]2[/sup] There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? [sup]3[/sup] When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am. [sup]4[/sup] And you know the way to where I am going.”
The point is that when we die we are never spearated from Christ, but our spirits are immediately in the presence of the Lord.
As far as David's writing goes, he was speaking of what he knew to be true at that time. OT saints went to Abraham's Bosom--Hades, to await their Messiah in whom they believed. No one is there now, since Jesus has opened the way to the Father. So, one does need to be in heaven when one dies if one believes in Jesus Christ.
Frankly, I find it seriously odd that Christians would actually argue for the desire to die and go to the place of the grave to wait for Jesus, when He promises that we shall never be separated, even by death, that where He is, we shall also be. I also find it disturbing that one would actually place more credence in men's writings than in God's word.
In the meantime, all believers who die go to that place prepared for them by Christ---heaven and that city that is there. This is until the resurrection when they receive their new glorified bodies and those of us who are still alive will, too.
John 14:1-4
[sup]1[/sup] “Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me. [sup]2[/sup] There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? [sup]3[/sup] When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am. [sup]4[/sup] And you know the way to where I am going.”
The point is that when we die we are never spearated from Christ, but our spirits are immediately in the presence of the Lord.
As far as David's writing goes, he was speaking of what he knew to be true at that time. OT saints went to Abraham's Bosom--Hades, to await their Messiah in whom they believed. No one is there now, since Jesus has opened the way to the Father. So, one does need to be in heaven when one dies if one believes in Jesus Christ.
Frankly, I find it seriously odd that Christians would actually argue for the desire to die and go to the place of the grave to wait for Jesus, when He promises that we shall never be separated, even by death, that where He is, we shall also be. I also find it disturbing that one would actually place more credence in men's writings than in God's word.
Just for now we will leave Origen out of the equation… Both you, and my good Roman Catholic friend, Aspen, have both charged that Origen was a Platonist. Origen was excommunicated 150 years after he died because his works were found to contain dubious references to Plato. This is true; although I prefer to believe Rufinus and Eusebius’ defence of Origen, who claimed that Origen’s enemies had tampered with his writings to bring him into disrepute. Neither of you wish to share Origen this consideration, so for now we will leave him out of the subject. He did not influence the outcome of beliefs, for he was discredited and excommunicated. Unless either of you are saying that Origen secretly manipulated the churches doctrines from the grave?
BTW. I did not say Justin’s works were tampered with, I said Origen’s works were tampered with.
Now, the quotes you gave about the future rewards from Justin and Irenaeus do not contradict the bible or the other Early Church Fathers. The subject they speak of is the earthly promises, and as I mentioned earlier, there is both a heavenly and earthly promise set before man. “A New Heavens and a New Earth”. Just because they spoke about the earthly promises does not mean that they denied the heavenly promise. This argument based on silence is mute.
You have not adequately demonstrated that the scriptures I quoted refer to the earthly promise or deny a heavenly promise. You have shown nothing even remotely close. Particularly for 1 Corinthian 15:48, which says we have resurrection bodies awaiting us made for heaven. All you have demonstrated is that you can manipulate the scriptures to fit in with your theory that "no one goes to heaven". Your explanations are text book Jehovah’s Witness opinions on how to interpret the “earthly paradise” of their New World Translation.
If you want to discuss any of these subjects to be more precise, rather than machine-gun splattering with multiple mixed comments, let’s tackle these remarks one by one. If you are so confident that you are seeing things correctly, then let’s do that. I would be happy to go through these doctrines with both you and Aspen, and show how you are both hiding behind myths and legends spread by your respective denominations. Name the topic and the breakdown of your dogma in steps, so that each step can be examined in closer detail for all to see. If you are both so certain that your dogmas are founded in the bible; then I challenge you to do this. Otherwise, quit with your wholesale half-truths and your pretence of accurate knowledge – both of you. (Aspen, I make reference to your comments about Origen... I am sure you can quote people who hate him, and even find remarks that are platonic, but are able to judge whether or not Origen truly made such statements? Have you read Rufinus and Eusebius' defence of Origen? Have you even read all of Origen's writings, or are you just pulling quotes like Butch?)
Steve
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Yeah - you are right about Origen, Steve - he was treated unfairly. I do believe he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 3rd century.
Steve,
There's no need for Ad hominems. My point isn't to show that Origen was a Gnostic, my point was to show that the earliest writers did not teach the heavenly destiny. Again you've spoken of the heavenly promise and again you've not shown anywhere this idea is taught in the Scriptures. 1 Cor. 15:48 does not say we have bodies in heaven. Heavenly is an "Adjective" not a noun. Heaven is a noun, it is a place. Heavenly is an "Adjective" it's descriptive. That whole passage is talking about bodies that are resurrected. The resurrection hasn't taken place yet. Do you agree that the kingdom starts at the resurrection as Paul says? If so then no one has gotten them yet.
Yes they did... I have already shown that.
Yes it does, it speaks of what type of bodies we receive - heavenly!
I have shown that the resurrection bodies of the first resurrection are to come with Christ in heavenly bodies... the rest shall be caught up into the air. You will not see what is plain before your eyes. This is a different problem. If you cannot see that which is clear, you have a problem with your sight.
I am willing to discuss this point by point, but you wriggle around and confound the discussion with a 1000 different topics. You are not interpreting according to the bible or the ECF. Both of these you have misread and taken out of context. The particular denomination you belong to teaches these errors, so in the end you will support your denomination over the scriptures, so it becomes a useless argument.
God Bless
Steve
Yet no one has shown where Jesus or the apostles taught any such thing.
Jesus said this to His apostles, how do you suppose they would have understood this?
[sup]KJV [/sup]John 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. (Joh 2:16 KJV)
The apostles understood His Father’s house was the Temple. Besides, this passage says that Jesus is going to come back for them. This actually supports my contention that they are now waiting for Jesus to return and get them. If they were already in heaven with Jesus there would be no need for Him to come here to get them.
Hi Stone,
The passage simply says they would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. There is nothing about going to heaven. I've pointed out that David said, 'if I make my bed in Hades you are there'. The Lord is omnipresent, so wherever one goes the Lord is there. One needn't go to heaven to be with the Lord.
Peter also make the point that David was prophet.
Where do the Scriptures teach that Jesus opened the way to heaven?
It’s not about what I desire; it’s about what the Scriptures say. My desire is to know what the Scriptures say. I don’t put more credence in the writing’s of men; no one has yet shown where Jesus or the apostles taught that Christians go to heaven when they die. I say the same thing that it’s odd that one would give more credence to the writings of men rather than of God word. History shows that not only was the heavenly destiny not taught by the earliest Christians it was argued against by those very Christians. One has to wonder why, if Jesus and the apostles taught that Christians went to heaven, would the early Christians teach just the opposite.
No one has ever proved to Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus is God;
No one has ever proved to Seventh Day Adventists that the Sabbath was abolished;
No one has ever proved to Mormons that the bible was completed;
No one has ever proved to you that there is a heavenly destination;
Do you see a bit of a pattern here?
Our spirits go to God when we die. The bible teaches that.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
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