The Mid Ocean Ridge

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veteran

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Neither is there any Biblical support for the existance of cats.

However, we understand from scripture that everything was created in the first 6 days of creation. after which God rested. We know that there is no "ancient earth" before those days because "in six day the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them".

That's the traditional idea, but not what the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2 reveals, nor even in English from Gen.1:2 to 1:9 in the KJV Bible.

I'm in the middle..., you obviously believe in something, but it's mostly science fiction.



Very good point. I hope the logic of this sinks in to Veterans very obstinate thinking.

Steve

I won't be swayed from what God's Word declares in Gen.1:1 to Gen.1:9, nor Jer.4:23-28, nor Isaiah 45:18, nor what Paul showed about the creation in Rom.8, nor what Peter covered in 2 Pet.3. It's way beyond your level of carnality.
 

Stefcui

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He doesn't need to say that the planet had had a previous existence which supported life, before the planet became void, and that he chose to resurrect it.

He doesn't need to say it because it only exists within the imagination of men. The planet did not "become void"; it was void. God did not "resurrect it"; He created it.

If there was a Gap between day 1 and day 2 so an ancient civilisation of angels in human form could tread the land with the dinosaurs... I propose that between day 2 and day 3 there was another gap in which fairies and goblins roamed the earth. They ate all of the angels and dinosaurs, and turned them into trees, which then turned into fossil fuels. The bible doesn’t say this didn't happen, so what do you think? Can you sell it for me? This can be our new little cult we could form... with my stupid ideas and your blind subservience, we could make a good team... Veteran, TomWebster, and other white supremacists. Oh, did I mention we will all be purple skinned… Yeah! Let’s change everything!!!
 

UppsalaDragby

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That's the traditional idea, but not what the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2 reveals, nor even in English from Gen.1:2 to 1:9 in the KJV Bible.

Whatever Genesis 1:2 reveals would have to be within the six days. Scripture cannot be broken.

The only reason the gap theory was introduced was because Christians felt compelled to find a way to concilliate scripture with what they mistakenly thought was undeniable science. They saw Genesis 1:2 as a way to get around this, but we should be believing scripture, not trying to find loopholes in it.

There is not a single shred of evidence that the universe is old. Radiometric dating is only useful if and only if it could be established that the conditions we see today have been constant backwards through time. And the speed of light is only a problem if you assume the secular model for how the universe was created.

But why Christians would accept a secular model that is based on assumption, over and above the scriptural explanation handed down to us by God, is beyond me.

I propose that between day 2 and day 3 there was another gap in which fairies and goblins roamed the earth.

I think that's when cats came into the picture too. :lol:
 

NicholasMarks

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He doesn't need to say it because it only exists within the imagination of men. The planet did not "become void"; it was void. God did not "resurrect it"; He created it.

If there was a Gap between day 1 and day 2 so an ancient civilisation of angels in human form could tread the land with the dinosaurs... I propose that between day 2 and day 3 there was another gap in which fairies and goblins roamed the earth. They ate all of the angels and dinosaurs, and turned them into trees, which then turned into fossil fuels. The bible doesn’t say this didn't happen, so what do you think? Can you sell it for me? This can be our new little cult we could form... with my stupid ideas and your blind subservience, we could make a good team... Veteran, TomWebster, and other white supremacists. Oh, did I mention we will all be purple skinned… Yeah! Let’s change everything!!!

Like the scientific method, Almighty God doesn't tell lies...but with Almighty God we can cut straight to the chase. He listed, within Genesis, a certain status of the planet when his active force surveyed it. It was void...it was in darkness on the side of the watery deep and it was a strong life-supporting planet ideal for his plan. This is why he chose the Earth and not Mars or Jupiter.

Certainly, Almighty God created the heavens and the Earth in the first place, but there is a lot of scientific data he knew we couldn't possibly understand for a few thousand years and he had ordained that we would have to follow the full extent of the path leading to the knowledge of 'good and evil' first. That is where we are now, at the end of that path, and it is time to learn the meat behind God's teaching, because many are letting the milk turn sour, and that is a blasphemy against Jesus Christ.
 

veteran

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Whatever Genesis 1:2 reveals would have to be within the six days. Scripture cannot be broken.

That's right, with the 1st day starting at Gen.1:2, not Gen.1:1.


The only reason the gap theory was introduced was because Christians felt compelled to find a way to concilliate scripture with what they mistakenly thought was undeniable science. They saw Genesis 1:2 as a way to get around this, but we should be believing scripture, not trying to find loopholes in it.

Well, that's an idea some folks borrow from men's traditions about it, while not fairly addressing the Scripture details in question. Some of men's traditions long ago falsely tried to associate it with Darwinism, evolution theory, and from the general boost by19th century science. Men's traditions have also used that idea with those who see the Gap in Genesis as only trying to create an agreement to explain scientific discovery, while not sticking to how Genesis is actually written. I see science as supporting God's Truth about it, not the other way around. God's Word is always... first and foremost with me, even with Scripture which science doesn't yet agree with. It's man's field of science that is evolving, not God's Holy Writ.


There is not a single shred of evidence that the universe is old. Radiometric dating is only useful if and only if it could be established that the conditions we see today have been constant backwards through time. And the speed of light is only a problem if you assume the secular model for how the universe was created.

I thought you might have been interested in discovery per God's Holy Writ, instead of going outside the relevant Scripture. But I guess not.


But why Christians would accept a secular model that is based on assumption, over and above the scriptural explanation handed down to us by God, is beyond me.

You mean "over and above the" 'traditional' "scriptural explanation", don't you? It's simple; one is a tradition of men, the other is not.

As for assumptions that the Gap idea in Genesis 1 is a "secular model", can you find me any field of modern science that teaches it? If you say Darwinism, evolution theory, etc., that cannot apply, for no model of modern science covers it that I know of. Yet, some discoveries by science does... support it as the Scripture is written.

Like the scientific method, Almighty God doesn't tell lies...but with Almighty God we can cut straight to the chase. He listed, within Genesis, a certain status of the planet when his active force surveyed it. It was void...it was in darkness on the side of the watery deep...

Yet that void idea is not what God's Word teaches in Genesis 1:2, because the Hebrew for "without form, and void" is not meant in that way, which other relevant Scriptures also backs up. If God's Word is allowed to interpret God's Word on that event, it will not lead to assumptions that the condition of the earth was in a vapour state of nothingness at Gen.1:2.


Certainly, Almighty God created the heavens and the Earth in the first place, but there is a lot of scientific data he knew we couldn't possibly understand for a few thousand years and he had ordained that we would have to follow the full extent of the path leading to the knowledge of 'good and evil' first. That is where we are now, at the end of that path, and it is time to learn the meat behind God's teaching, because many are letting the milk turn sour, and that is a blasphemy against Jesus Christ.

What makes you think the Gap idea in Gen.1 isn't the real strong meat teaching of His creation per His Word? Just becaue of what others... say, without really going into the Scripture in-depth?
 

NicholasMarks

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Veteran:

Though your message above appears to be disputing me I think we are saying something similar....even so...In the beginning was the 'word' and this is the beginning I find the most informative because it sets the scene for a wonderful scientist, who, in direct opposition to all those ruining planet Heaven, broke the hidden code of nature and delivered it to his people. He met the same demise that Jesus did when Jesus brought that same message, wrapped up in a suckling form, to his people, here on planet Earth, 2000 years before it could possibly be understood, so that it could accompany and comfort those who valued his righteous stance. This reinforces the statement that the righteous spirit, hewn out of Jesus Christ's accurate teaching, is indestructable...and that Almighty God and Jesus Christ have an indestrucable leadership over the entire universe.

This will soon become very important if we are, indeed, living in the last days.
.
 

veteran

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Veteran:

Though your message above appears to be disputing me I think we are saying something similar....even so...In the beginning was the 'word' and this is the beginning I find the most informative because it sets the scene for a wonderful scientist, who, in direct opposition to all those ruining planet Heaven, broke the hidden code of nature and delivered it to his people. He met the same demise that Jesus did when Jesus brought that same message, wrapped up in a suckling form, to his people, here on planet Earth, 2000 years before it could possibly be understood, so that it could accompany and comfort those who valued his righteous stance. This reinforces the statement that the righteous spirit, hewn out of Jesus Christ's accurate teaching, is indestructable...and that Almighty God and Jesus Christ have an indestrucable leadership over the entire universe.

This will soon become very important if we are, indeed, living in the last days.
.

Not trying to dispute, except those traditionalists of old which had mistaken what the Gap idea in Genesis 1 is really about. I'm like an apologist on this matter among those on men's traditons among my own Christian brethren.

Few realize just how God's Word accounts for the time when Satan first rebelled against Him, and when God ended his first rebellion. Genesis 1 even accounts for the time when God created a separation of Heavenly abodes between His Abode, and Satan's place of darkness.

Apostle Paul declared in Romans 8 that God, not willingly, placed His creation in "vanity" and "bondage of corruption" for this present world time. His Word reveals when that was, and how it was associated with the time of Satan's original rebellion against Him.

Not only this, but even in Rev.12:3-4 our Lord Jesus revealed to us a ten-horned, seven headed, seven crowned world system which Satan drew a third of the stars in rebellion with. Men's traditions on that = 0.0000. Yet it is written for all to see, read, and understand.
 

NicholasMarks

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Not only this, but even in Rev.12:3-4 our Lord Jesus revealed to us a ten-horned, seven headed, seven crowned world system which Satan drew a third of the stars in rebellion with. Men's traditions on that = 0.0000. Yet it is written for all to see, read, and understand.

I am not going to disagree with you here just to add that that Satanaic beast describes perfectly how the interwoven fabric of evil thrives on a simple philosophy which Almighty God understands and has fought against before. The comfort I gain from these passages is the number of that beast as identified in Isaiah 66:6 when Almighty God deals with that philosophy and those who adhere to it once...and for all. Unless, of course, they are able to repent.
 

UppsalaDragby

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That's right, with the 1st day starting at Gen.1:2, not Gen.1:1.

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them.

Ex 20:11 doesn't leave much room for gaps.

Well, that's an idea some folks borrow from men's traditions about it, while not fairly addressing the Scripture details in question. Some of men's traditions long ago falsely tried to associate it with Darwinism, evolution theory, and from the general boost by19th century science. Men's traditions have also used that idea with those who see the Gap in Genesis as only trying to create an agreement to explain scientific discovery, while not sticking to how Genesis is actually written. I see science as supporting God's Truth about it, not the other way around. God's Word is always... first and foremost with me, even with Scripture which science doesn't yet agree with. It's man's field of science that is evolving, not God's Holy Writ.

So what is the determining factor that tells us what is, or isn't "men's traditions"?

Is belief in the trinity "men's tradition"? Why? Why not? And how is the "traditional" view not "fairly addressing the scripture details in question"?

By using this kind of argument I could point out anything in the Bible that I don't like and just say it's "men's traditions".

Could you also provide some details about what you mean by "not sticking to how Genesis is actually written". How was it "actually written"?

I thought you might have been interested in discovery per God's Holy Writ, instead of going outside the relevant Scripture. But I guess not.

I'm interested in lots of things. So what exactly is your point?

You mean "over and above the" 'traditional' "scriptural explanation", don't you?

No, I don't, but you certainly seem to want me to say that. But sure, if what you consider to be the "traditional explanation" is incorrect then please demonstrate that it is definitely incorrect.

As for assumptions that the Gap idea in Genesis 1 is a "secular model", can you find me any field of modern science that teaches it?

My point wasn't that the Gap theory had anything to do with the secular model, but that using the speed of light as evidence of an old universe presupposes a model that doesn't take into account God's ability to create the entire universe already in an expanded state.
 

Stefcui

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Few realize just how God's Word accounts for the time when Satan first rebelled against Him...


WOW, you must be an Apostle... you know things that so few others do...

The "secret knowledge" of the Gap Theory being taught here is from Gnostics. It was introduced in the 2nd century AD by Basilides. It is found in the Nag Hammadi Library written in the gnostic document called: "The Second Treatise of the Great Seth." This document is presumably written by Satan himself, and it explains from Satan’s point of view how he was unfairly treated and sent down to earth to reside in human form. The Gap Theory extrapolates from this document. It was introduced into church circles by Rosicrucians and Freemasons.

The document called the Great Seth is satanic, and the Gap Theory dogma is also gnostic and satanic. The way the scriptures are manipulated to support this view is similar to how satan used the scripture when refuting Jesus.

Notice how this thread has been hijacked again by Veteran, who uses every opportunity to introduce his gnostic Christianity. The Gap Theory has nothing to do with this thread on the Mid Ocean Ridge, and I specifically asked for the Gap Theory advocates to NOT FLOOD THIS THREAD. That you continually hijack my threads and preach the same different gospel exposes you for having ulterior motives and deep spiritual problems. You need a lot of help and prayer, but you first need to repent of your heresies.
 

Secondhand Lion

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Ugh...With much knowledge seems to come a great deal of confusion often times. I readily acknowledge that I am certainly not as intelligent as you guys seem to be; however may I ask a couple of questions for my understanding?

1. What happens to the cause of Christ if death came before sin? (fossil record)

2. If the penalty for sin was not death....why did God lie to us?

3. If sin came before Adam sinned...Why didn't God give us that account instead in His account of beginnings? Or did He lie about what the actual beginning was?

4. If God is a liar....where do we actually stand?

I am very happy in my stupidity if it means God isnt a liar....let me live in my world of make believe :wacko:
 

justaname

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Ugh...With much knowledge seems to come a great deal of confusion often times. I readily acknowledge that I am certainly not as intelligent as you guys seem to be; however may I ask a couple of questions for my understanding?

1. What happens to the cause of Christ if death came before sin? (fossil record)

2. If the penalty for sin was not death....why did God lie to us?

3. If sin came before Adam sinned...Why didn't God give us that account instead in His account of beginnings? Or did He lie about what the actual beginning was?

4. If God is a liar....where do we actually stand?

I am very happy in my stupidity if it means God isnt a liar....let me live in my world of make believe :wacko:

This is living proof of the issues with the gap theory. I am very sure God is not a liar. I will gladly substitute all my "intelligence" for a pure belief in God, in His truth, in His Son, in His providence. I can easily read the scriptures as they are written. I think many begin problems of confusion by reading the white part of the bible as opposed to the black. That is to read into what is not written at all.
 

Stefcui

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1. What happens to the cause of Christ if death came before sin? (fossil record)

2. If the penalty for sin was not death....why did God lie to us?

Hi Seconhand Lion,

I have heard your view presented before on Creation Science websites...

I do not personally think that animals lived forever before sin, as your argument proposes. I think everlasting life was given only to man. Animals lived and died before Adam sinned. I find this idea terribly illogical, sorry. The idea that man was given commands he had to keep, and only on that basis would he live forever; yet animals, which are inferior to man, were given everlasting life simply as a bonus? What about mosquitos and flies? Were they meant to live forever? Do they only die because Adam sinned? Did plants also live forever? Plants also live and die. Animals (and plants) were never intended to live forever. The scriptures relate only to man when scripture says "the penalty of sin is death."

I hope you rethink this idea. You might be “very happy in your stupidity”; but that does not mean that God lied.

Steve
 

Secondhand Lion

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Hi Seconhand Lion,

I have heard your view presented before on Creation Science websites...

I do not personally think that animals lived forever before sin, as your argument proposes. I think everlasting life was given only to man. Animals lived and died before Adam sinned. I find this idea terribly illogical, sorry. The idea that man was given commands he had to keep, and only on that basis would he live forever; yet animals, which are inferior to man, were given everlasting life simply as a bonus? What about mosquitos and flies? Were they meant to live forever? Do they only die because Adam sinned? Did plants also live forever? Plants also live and die. Animals (and plants) were never intended to live forever. The scriptures relate only to man when scripture says "the penalty of sin is death."

I hope you rethink this idea. You might be “very happy in your stupidity”; but that does not mean that God lied.

Steve

Ummm....wait....where did man come from in the gap theory of evolution....if it still wasnt from animals? Or the original "micro-organism"? Does the gap theory suggest that man was still created but everything else came from some sort of evolution? What you suggest is very interesting, but an awful lot needs to be assumed it seems. I will wait for your answer on where exactly adam came from....I will probably have more questions
 

Stefcui

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where did man come from in the gap theory of evolution...

I do not hold the Gap Theory doctrine, Veteran does.

I believe the order of creation happened exactly as genesis says, without any GAPS, or angelic civilisations on earth in a previous creation. This is Veterans view which I think is ridiculous.

God Bless
Steve
 

Secondhand Lion

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Ok...correct, I agree with you. BTW...I don't take my viewpoints from "websites". I do not have very much intelligence, but the more you talk with me, the more you will understand that I do not need to be lead by the nose.

Now....to your point that "animals were always meant to die". I wonder....do you believe there will be animals in the new heaven and new earth? If so...are they going to die also? You are making an argument from silence. The bible does not tell us specifically that animals were supposed to live forever or not (and I will not make a big issue out of it either way). I have never heard this viewpoint though and it is quite intriguing.

The first animal "death" we see in the bible is immediately after sin. I do not see any indication that there was one before that.

I really am not trying to "stir the pot" or whatever term this forum board uses, I just have never heard this idea.
 

justaname

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Ok...correct, I agree with you. BTW...I don't take my viewpoints from "websites". I do not have very much intelligence, but the more you talk with me, the more you will understand that I do not need to be lead by the nose.

Now....to your point that "animals were always meant to die". I wonder....do you believe there will be animals in the new heaven and new earth? If so...are they going to die also? You are making an argument from silence. The bible does not tell us specifically that animals were supposed to live forever or not (and I will not make a big issue out of it either way). I have never heard this viewpoint though and it is quite intriguing.

The first animal "death" we see in the bible is immediately after sin. I do not see any indication that there was one before that.

I really am not trying to "stir the pot" or whatever term this forum board uses, I just have never heard this idea.
With all due respect, there is another thread on this very topic you ask about. "Do Dogs Have Souls" Not to be one who is correcting, but in threads it is prudent to try to stay on topic. I understand you seek answers, yet what you ask is a derailment of a different derailment.
In the love of Christ,
Shalom
 

justaname

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I honestly don't think anyone was offended, rather it is kinda like proper manners. :D
 

Secondhand Lion

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Ok, sorry for my improper manners, I am rather uncouth. I did see it as sticking with the point, (btw that thread has nothing to do with what I was asking about creation and the animals dying). It is a very integral part of "Creation vs Evolution vs gap theory" if a case can actually be made that animals were supposed to die even before sin.

I do understand how I may have lead you to believe I was asking about "Are animals going to be in heaven". I should have made the correlation so as to avoid confusion. It stands to reason....if animals are going to be in heaven and they won't die then...is it really unreasonable to believe....they were originally supposed to live forever also? The creation vs evolution implications are vast if animals were "supposed to die all along" and not as a result of sin.