Who is Israel?

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Stefcui

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Israel is spoken of in the scriptures as a historical nation; an allegorical nation; and a symbolic nation. There are members of this forum who promote each of these different versions of Israel.
  1. Semitic Israel is always literal Israel (promises are still given to Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews now in Palestine)
  2. The Church is now the allegorical Israel (promises were passed onto the church)
  3. Israel is now the migrated 10 tribes who are the white nations of Europe (promises were passed onto the white European nations)
  4. Israel is literal, allegorical and symbolic (some promises were passed onto the church and some still apply to Israel)
As the subject of Israel seems to spill out onto many different threads; here is an opportunity for advocates of each version of Israel to explain their views to other members. Please try to avoid the football barracking mentality (yelling and screaming from the sidelines). Give the reasons why you believe your doctrine with as much scriptural support as possible. Try not to SPAM the thread with extremely long chapters from other people’s research. I will not call anyone’s views heresy; even though I have felt this way about some modern dogmas. Some others also feel that my views are heresy.

Steve
 

aspen

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I believe humans have designated the country of Israel to the Jewish people based on the OT promise of the land to the Jewish people. There are many reason why human governments have decided to give the land to the Jewish people - the atrocities of WWII; the need for a homeland for a people who have been in diaspora; protection against centuries of hatred. No matter the reason, the Jewish people needed a place to call their own.

Unfortunately, instead of creating a nation dedicated to peace and tolerance - the Jewish people have alienated themselves against their Arab neighbors and the Palestinian nation that was displaced by the nations of the world. It is really a shame because Israel is treating the Palestinian people in the same manner they were treated for centuries.

It is a real mess, for sure. The Palestinian people have raised their children to hate Israelis and Western governments. Their education and quality of living is third world....Israelis have continued to move into their territory. It is certainly not what God wants.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Israel is spoken of in the scriptures as a historical nation; an allegorical nation; and a symbolic nation.

The term is also used to refer to a man, the spiritual seed extending from Isaac to Christ (i.e the vine of Israel), and the cursed physical descendents of Abraham.
 

Stefcui

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It is a real mess, for sure. The Palestinian people have raised their children to hate Israelis and Western governments. Their education and quality of living is third world....Israelis have continued to move into their territory. It is certainly not what God wants.

It sure is a mess. It is very sad too. Practically everyone in the world has been exposed to violence and hatred in God's name by the weekly updates on TV. It is sure building up to a finale of some kind...

The term is also used to refer to a man, the spiritual seed extending from Isaac to Christ (i.e the vine of Israel), and the cursed physical descendents of Abraham.

The term is also used to refer to a woman... Hagar and Sarah in Galatians 4:25, 26:

"Now Hagar represents Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother."
 

Foreigner

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Unfortunately, instead of creating a nation dedicated to peace and tolerance - the Jewish people have alienated themselves against their Arab neighbors and the Palestinian nation that was displaced by the nations of the world. It is really a shame because Israel is treating the Palestinian people in the same manner they were treated for centuries.

It is a real mess, for sure. The Palestinian people have raised their children to hate Israelis and Western governments. Their education and quality of living is third world....Israelis have continued to move into their territory. It is certainly not what God wants.

-- When you are wrong you go all-out, don't you?
I would guess it’s because you know what you are saying is "inaccurate" even as you type it.


Unfortunately, instead of creating a nation dedicated to peace and tolerance - the Jewish people have alienated themselves against their Arab neighbors



-- Israel accepted the UN partition, said they accept the new borders, said they had no intetion of trying to expand their borders (even though their ancient capital was declared an ‘open city’ well withing the Arab Palestinian partition), and offered to live in peace with their Arab neighbors.

It was the their Arab neighbors who “alienated themselves” by launching an unprovoked attack with the declared purpose of killing every single Israeli man woman and child.

Did you catch that? An unprovoked attack by Israel’s Arab neighbors with the stated goal of wiping them off the face of the earth.
And the attacks in ’67 and ’73 against Israel by those same neighbors with the same stated goal....and you think it is Israel alienating themselves?

Tell me why Israel should care about "alienating" a group of people whose stated goal is the death of every single Israeli man, woman, and child. A goal still in place today.

and the Palestinian nation that was displaced by the nations of the world.




-- Hate to break it to you but in the entire history of mankind there has never once been a “Palestinian Nation.”

When the UN partitioned the area that was named “Palestine” by the British, there was no “Palestinian Nation.”

The people that lived there were called Palestinians, but that label was also applied to the Jews that were living there (as they have since before the Romans destroyed Jerusalem)

And the original area called “Palestine” by the Brits included the area that is now the nation of Jordan.

Following your reasoning, there are no Jordanian people. Only Palestinian people occupying the area of Jordan.

To recap: Contrary to your incorrect claim, there was never, EVER a “Palestinian Nation.”



It is really a shame because Israel is treating the Palestinian people in the same manner they were treated for centuries.




-- If you were TRULY concerned about the treatment of the Palestinians, you would demand to know why they are still in ‘refugee’ camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria for more than 60 years, prevented from moving freely among their Arab ‘brothers.’ The UN itself has condemned the treatment of the Palestinians in these camps. The point that is ignored is that Palestinians in Gaza have more rights and freedoms than Palestinians in any of the 'refugee' camps in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria.


But just think….If the Palestinians had accepted the UN partition, they too would have their own nation right now.

Instead they decided to try to destroy the Israelis and declare to this day that is still their stated goal.

Tell me what exactly Israel owes to a group of people with that goal who launch rocket attacks at Israeli schools and hospitals and send suicide bombers into civilian marketplaces.

Israel has fulfilled their side of multiple peace treaties only to have the Palestinians fail to keep their end of the bargain.

The last treaty had Israelis forcibly removing their own people from Gaza in order to hand it over to the Palestinians.

How did the Palestinians respond? They used the newly gained territory to fire rockets and launch suicide bombers into Israel.

Instead of Israel taking the land back, they built a wall to defend themselves.

You yourself fell for the false claims of starvation and it being a ‘concentration camp’…..right up until it was shown on this very sight that they have opened shopping malls, water parks, have luxury car dealerships, etc. etc. etc.

But if you truly were concerned about the treatment of the Palestinians you would touch on the poor treatment they have been receiving at the hands of their Arab brothers since 1948.

As you read this there are Palestinians living in “camps” in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. They have been imprisoned there, prevented from mingling with their Arab brothers for more than 60 years. They are currently living better and have more freedoms in Gaza than in the camps inside the countries of their Arab brothers.

The children, grandchildren and now even great grandchildren are confined to those camps. Yet somehow, born in a foreign country, they are given automatic refugee status for a country that did not exist when they were born. Only the UN could come up with something that ridiculous:



Or have you forgotten this: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15222-israel-blasts-un-on-the-truth-about-palestinian-refugees/



Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:16 PM
Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Blasts UN Agency on ‘The Truth’ About Palestinian Refugees



In a new YouTube video called “The Truth About the Refugees,” Israel’s Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon takes a sharp look at the Palestinian refugee problem, and blasts the UN agency tasked with aiding them and their descendants. Ayalon asks:
Why after more than 60 years are the Arab-Palestinian refugees still not welcomed and absorbed among their own brethren? And how could their numbers have grown from 500,000 to 4.7 million? The sad reality is that Palestinian refugees never had a chance. Attempts at resettlement were blocked by a variety of discriminatory laws enacted in Arab countries such as: a ban on receiving citizenship – with the exception of Jordan; blocking them from entering many professions; restrictions on owning land; restrictions on movement…


From Israel’s perspective, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, or UNRWA, with the encouragement of Arab states, has engaged in a highly political mission to perpetuate the refugee problem rather than finding a dignified solution for those living 63 years in substandard housing that is clearly no longer “temporary.” Ayalon quotes a former UNRWA director in Jordan Sir Alexander Galloway who said:
…the Arab nations do not want to solve the Arab refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore…as a weapon against Israel.”[/indent]
He also asks why the UN formed an entirely separate bureaucracy to aid Palestinian refugees, when all other refugees are handled by the UN High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR).


The answer is, because while the United Nations’ central refugee agency helps refugees resettle, the United Nations Palestinian refugee agency helps perpetuate their status by applying unique criteria…Refugees lose their status after receiving citizenship from a recognized country – Palestinians do not. Refugees cannot transmit their status from generation to generation. Palestinian refugees can.

Arab states are all too willing to obstruct any livable arrangement for these mostly impoverished Palestinians by withholding citizenship, preventing moves to more adequate dwellings, and feeding the dream of their future “return” to their purported homes in Israel. Homes, it should be added, that many never actually saw since they were born years after the 1948 and 1967 Arab-Israeli wars.

Now, even their grandchildren and great-grandchildren are granted refugee status by UNRWA and are daily fed the myth Israelis will eventually, after a violent struggle, vacate their homes leading to a so-called “return” of those who weren’t even born in 1948.

Instead of encouraging the refugees to move forward with their lives constructively, UNRWA – ceding to Arab state policies – has set up a massive bureaucracy predicated on handouts to the poor and perpetuating the problem, rather than acknowledging reality and allowing them to attempt financially-independent lives.

Ayalon explains in his video that there were more Jewish refugees – 850,000 – forced from Arab states than the estimated 500,000 Arabs who fled their homes in 1948. Also by contrast, the Jews were allowed to build free lives in Israel and were never granted refugee status. Ayalon is himself the son of a Jew who was forced to leave Algeria.

Ayalon’s first two videos on the Israeli-Palestinian peace process and the West Bank went viral. The Israeli Foreign Ministry hopes this one will also be widely viewed, offering the public a perspective not widely disseminated by the mainstream media, which like UNRWA tends to report on the issue without pointing to the basic logical complication – how can someone who was born decades after an armed conflict be considered a refugee?



-- The one point the article doesn't touch on is that fact that when the Arabs attacked the Israelis in 1948, the Jordanians took the 'Palestinian' land between Jordan and East Jerusalem, and the Egyptians took what is today Gaza. NEITHER gave the land back.

Jordan, instead of giving the land originally deeded to the Palestinians by the UN back to the Palestinians, ANNEXED THE LAND for themselves.


Aspen, you already know these facts.
So what does it mean when you ignore those facts and post statements that you yourself know to be inaccurate (untrue)?
 

aspen

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I am speaking about my concerns in the region - I am trying not to point fingers. I think all people involved are in a tough situation. I do not believe that the Israeli people are totally innocent in the conflict. I thought my post was rather innocuous.
 

Foreigner

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I am trying not to point fingers.....I thought my post was rather innocuous.

Says the man whose previous post on the topic contained such gems as:

"It is really a shame because Israel is treating the Palestinian people in the same manner they were treated for centuries."
and
"Unfortunately, instead of creating a nation dedicated to peace and tolerance - the Jewish people have alienated themselves against their Arab neighbors"

and
"Israelis have continued to move into their territory. It is certainly not what God wants."

Yes, totally innocuous with no finger pointing ;)
 

aspen

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okay, okay!

Call off the dogs....sheesh
 

lawrance

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I think only the Sephardic have any rights to be called the true Jews all the others don't count and never have.
As for people who reject who Israel and what Israel really means and start raving on that some people who hate our Lord and Saviour have some god given right to reject him and then run around putting a race up as an Idol, I see this as full on satanic Devil worshipers.
True Israel is True Christians in Christ, it can not be any other way, or it's a slap in the face to Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the only way their is no other. the true Jews knew who he was and followed him only.
Racism is frowned upon but now we have this bigoted full on stupid racist bull. come on !
 

Stefcui

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I think only the Sephardic have any rights to be called the true Jews all the others don't count and never have... True Israel is True Christians in Christ, it can not be any other way, or it's a slap in the face to Jesus Christ.

I very much agree with this.

Thank you brother
Steve
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, all. HaErets Yisra'el (the Land of Isra'el) should be just that! It is undeniably, irrevokably ISRA'EL'S LAND! Technically, it's GOD'S Land, and He has given it to Isra'el, not to the Arabs! People call it "Palestine" today because that's what the ROMANS called it to provoke Isra'el after their deportation and the word "Palestine" comes from P'LESHET (PHILISTIA), land of the Philistines (today called the "Gaza Strip")! (Notice the consonants!) It's a HORRIBLE slap in the face to call it "Palestine!" The "West Bank" is a misnomer, as well! The "West Bank" is simply the area that the Bible calls the "Mountains of Isra'el!," particularly in Ezekiel. The arrows on the map are rather backwards. Did you know that the "Palestinians" are actually the descendants of Arab refugees FROM Syria, Jordan (then known as "Trans-jordan") and Egypt? They tried to go "home" to their respective countries and those wonderful Islamic countries DIDN'T WANT THEM AND SENT THEM BACK! It's just ludicrous to say that "Palestinians" have any rights to the land on which they're SQUATTING! They are USURPERS who don't belong there! God's promises are unchanging and irrevokable! He doesn't renig on His promises! Even when in the past God had driven them off the Land because they forgot Him and refused to keep His commandments, they were NEVER kicked off the land permanently, and promises were made that they would return. It's happened once; it's happening again! While it will undeniably take time to complete, nevertheless it is NOT the land of ANY of the Arabs! And, IMO, they should get their stupid dome and mosque off of the foundation pad made for GOD'S HOUSE! It's high time they were driven from the Land entirely! Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Yemenite, Russian, ... whatever! If they are children of Avraham through Yitschaq and Ya`aqov at all, THEY BELONG THERE! And, no foreigner, U.N. or USA or Brittain or whoever, should have ANY say in who among the Jews is allowed to live there! Since when should GENTILES have any say in how the Jews live in THEIR Land?! Don't you yet realize that God is going to be TICKED OFF when He sends Yeshua` back and there won't be anyone who will stand with Him, who will be willing to help Him?! The prophecy of God through the prophet Yo'el (Joel) is a short book, but it is one of the most POIGNANT books in the Tanakh! This prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Here it is in the CJB: Yo’el JOEL 1:1 The word of ADONAI that came to Yo’el the son of P’tu’el: 2 “Hear this, you leaders! Listen, all who live in the land! Has anything like this ever happened in your days, or in your ancestors’ days? 3 Tell your children about it, and have them tell it to theirs, and have them tell the next generation. 4 What the cutter-worms left, the locusts ate; what the locusts left, the grasshoppers ate; what the grasshoppers left, the shearer-worms ate. 5 Wake up, drunkards, and weep! wail, all you who drink wine, because the juice of the grape will be withheld from your mouth. 6 For a mighty and numberless nation has invaded my land. His teeth are lion’s teeth; his fangs are those of a lioness. 7 He has reduced my vines to waste, my fig trees to splinters — he plucked them bare, stripped their bark and left their branches white.” 8 Lament like a virgin wearing sackcloth for the husband of her youth! 9 Grain offering and drink offering are cut off from the house of ADONAI. The cohanim are mourning, those who are serving ADONAI. 10 The fields are ruined, the ground is grieving; for the grain is ruined, the new wine dried up, and the olive oil is wretched. 11 Despair, you farmers; lament, vinedressers, over the wheat and the barley — the harvest from the fields is lost. 12 The vines have withered, the fig trees wilted, also the pomegranate, date-palm and apple tree — all the trees in the fields have withered, and the people’s joy has withered away. 13 Cohanim, put on sackcloth, and weep! Wail, you who serve at the altar! Come, lie in sackcloth all night long, you who serve my God! For the grain offering and drink offering are withheld from the house of your God. 14 Proclaim a holy fast, call for a solemn assembly, gather the leaders and all who live in the land to the house of ADONAI your God, and cry out to ADONAI, 15 “Oh no! The Day! The Day of ADONAI is upon us! As destruction from Shaddai it is coming! 16 The food is cut off before our very eyes, also joy and gladness from the house of our God. 17 The seed-grain is rotting in its furrows; the granaries are deserted, the barns in ruins; because the grain has withered. 18 How the animals groan! The herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture. The flocks of sheep bear the punishment, too. 19 ADONAI, I cry out to you! For the fire has consumed the pastures in the desert, and the flame set ablaze all the trees in the fields. 20 Even the wild animals come to you, panting, because the streambeds have dried up, and fire has consumed the pastures in the desert.” 2:1 “Blow the shofar in Tziyon! Sound an alarm on my holy mountain!” Let all living in the land tremble, for the Day of ADONAI is coming! It’s upon us! — 2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick fog; a great and mighty horde is spreading like blackness over the mountains. There has never been anything like it, nor will there ever be again, not even after the years of many generations. 3 Ahead of them a fire devours, behind them a flame consumes; ahead the land is like Gan-‘Eden, behind them a desert waste. From them there is no escape. 4 They look like horses, and like cavalry they charge. 5 With a rumble like that of chariots they leap over the mountaintops, like crackling flames devouring stubble, like a mighty horde in battle array. 6 At their presence the peoples writhe in anguish, every face is drained of color. 7 Like warriors they charge, they scale the wall like soldiers. Each one keeps to his own course, without getting in the other’s way. 8 They don’t jostle each other, but stay on their own paths; they burst through defenses unharmed, without even breaking rank. 9 They rush into the city, they run along the wall, they climb up into the houses, entering like a thief through the windows. 10 At their advance the earth quakes, and the sky shakes, the sun and moon turn black, and the stars stop shining. 11 ADONAI shouts orders to his forces — his army is immense, mighty, and it does what he says. For great is the Day of ADONAI, fearsome, terrifying! Who can endure it? 12 “Yet even now,” says ADONAI, “turn to me with all your heart, with fasting, weeping and lamenting.” 13 Tear your heart, not your garments; and turn to ADONAI your God. For he is merciful and compassionate, slow to anger, rich in grace, and willing to change his mind about disaster. 14 Who knows? He may turn, change his mind and leave a blessing behind him, [enough for] grain offerings and drink offerings to present to ADONAI your God. 15 “Blow the shofar in Tziyon! Proclaim a holy fast, call for a solemn assembly.” 16 Gather the people; consecrate the congregation; assemble the leaders; gather the children, even infants sucking at the breast; let the bridegroom leave his room and the bride the bridal chamber. 17 Let the cohanim, who serve ADONAI, stand weeping between the vestibule and the altar. Let them say, “Spare your people, ADONAI! Don’t expose your heritage to mockery, or make them a byward among the Goyim. Why should the peoples say, ‘Where is their God?’” 18 Then ADONAI will become jealous for his land and have pity on his people. 19 Here is how ADONAI will answer his people: “I will send you grain, wine and olive oil, enough to satisfy you; and no longer will I make you a mockery among the Goyim. 20 No, I will take the northerner away, far away from you, and drive him to a land that is waste and barren; with his vanguard toward the eastern sea and his rearguard toward the western sea, his stench and his rottenness will rise, because he has done great things.” 21 Don’t fear, O soil; be glad! rejoice! for ADONAI has done great things. 22 Don’t be afraid, wild animals; for the desert pastures are green, the trees are putting out their fruit, the fig tree and vine are giving full yield. 23 Be glad, people of Tziyon! rejoice in ADONAI your God! For he is giving you the right amount of rain in the fall, he makes the rain come down for you, the fall and spring rains — this is what he does first. 24 Then the floors will be full of grain and the vats overflow with wine and olive oil. 25 “I will restore to you the years that the locusts ate, the grasshoppers, shearer-worms and cutter-worms, my great army that I sent against you. 26 You will eat until you are satisfied and will praise the name of ADONAI your God, who has done with you such wonders. Then my people will never again be shamed. 27 You will know that I am with Isra’el and that I am ADONAI your God, and that there is no other. Then my people will never again be shamed. 3:1(2:28) “After this, I will pour out my Spirit on all humanity. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions; 2(2:29) and also on male and female slaves in those days I will pour out my Spirit. 3(2:30) I will show wonders in the sky and on earth — blood, fire and columns of smoke. 4(2:31) The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the coming of the great and terrible Day of ADONAI.” 5(2:32) At that time, whoever calls on the name of ADONAI will be saved. For in Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim there will be those who escape, as ADONAI has promised; among the survivors will be those whom ADONAI has called. 4(3):1 “For then, at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim, 2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Y’hoshafat [ADONAI judges]. I will enter into judgment there for my people, my heritage Isra’el, whom they scattered among the nations; then they divided my land. 3 They drew lots for my people, traded boys for whores, sold girls for wine to drink. 4 “Moreover, what have you against me, Tzor, Tzidon, all parts of P’leshet? Are you paying me back for something I did? If you’re paying me back for something I did, then easily, quickly, I’ll pay you back right on your own head. 5 You took my silver and gold. You brought my good treasures into your temples. 6 The people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim you sold to the Greeks, so that you could remove them far away from their land. 7 I will rouse them from the place where you sold them and pay you back right on your own head — 8 I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Y’hudah; and they will sell them to the men of Sh’va, a nation far off; for ADONAI has spoken. 9 “Proclaim this among the nations: ‘Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men approach and attack.’ 10 Hammer your plow-blades into swords and your pruning-knives into spears. Let the weak say, ‘I am strong.’ 11 Hurry, come, you surrounding nations, gather yourselves together!” Bring your warriors down, ADONAI! 12 “Let the nations be roused and come up to the Valley of Y’hoshafat [ADONAI judges]. For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.” 13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, and tread, for the winepress is full. The vats are overflowing, for their wickedness is great. 14 Such enormous crowds in the Valley of Decision! For the Day of ADONAI is upon us in the Valley of Decision! 15 The sun and moon have grown black, and the stars have stopped shining. 16 ADONAI will roar from Tziyon, he will thunder from Yerushalayim, the sky and the earth will shake. But ADONAI will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Isra’el. 17 “You will know that I am ADONAI your God, living on Tziyon my holy mountain.” Then Yerushalayim will be holy, and foreigners will pass through her no more. 18 Then, when that time comes, the mountains will drip with sweet wine, the hills will flow with milk, all the streambeds of Y’hudah will run with water, and a spring will flow from the house of Adonai to water the Sheetim Valley. 19 But Egypt will be desolate and Edom a desert waste, because of the violence done to the people of Y’hudah, because they shed innocent blood in their land. 20 Y’hudah will be inhabited forever, Yerushalayim through all generations. 21 “I will cleanse them of bloodguilt which I have not yet cleansed,” for ADONAI is living in Tziyon. CJB I'm sorry if you think this is too dogmatic, but then again, I'm NOT sorry at all for being zealous for God's people! I know that it is God's choice when to send Yeshua` back and that He will do it when He's good and ready. We don't have a say in the matter; on the other hand, we can pray for the soon return of Yeshua` and not stand in the way to delay His coming! Yeshua` said,... Matthew 23:37-39 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. KJV And this is a quotation from Psalm 118:26: Psalm 118:26 26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. KJV Which means that "the house of the LORD" has to be there, first, because this was never said by the leaders of the Y'hudiym (the Jews) before the Temple was destroyed! Furthermore, Paul told us,... Rom 11:23-29 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved (rescued): as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (God doesn't change His mind or renig). KJV So, we should not let our country or the U.N. have any say in how God chooses to redeem Isra'el and bring them back into His Land! We should be ENCOURAGING Isra'el, knowing that their redemption will HASTEN the Lord's return!
 
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Stefcui

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Shalom, all. HaErets Yisra'el (the Land of Isra'el) should be just that! It is undeniably, irrovokably ISRA'EL'S LAND!

Hi Retrobyter,

Are you a Jew? You use Jewish language as if you are a Jew. If not, you have somewhat of an identity problem.

The Gospel was never about showing how the "Land of Israel" is the promise to the Jews... If it was, the Jews never would have killed Jesus; they would have proclaimed Him king. You have a different gospel here brother... When did Jesus or the Apostles ever preach this strange gospel? If you say it was in Romans, then why did the Jews try to kill Paul because of his statements? You confuse the scriptures and the entire gospel message... The Jews have always tried to trick Christians into giving up their birth-right... those Christians who were deceived into accepting Jewish beliefs and customs were called Judaizers.

http://www.biblestud.../judaizers.html
 

Stefcui

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...If you were TRULY concerned about the treatment of the Palestinians...

Blah, Blah, Blah... What propaganda is this?

Watch the video below, Occupation 101, and try an make the same bold faced statements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_jvXnPG9Xc

You have "carpet bombed" the post, just like the Israeli's do to the arabs, with bits and pieces of shrapnel. (see below, Do you know what kind of weapons causes this damage?) Take one point at a time and we can discuss these things more accurately.

Steve

Do you know what kind of weapons causes this damage?

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=24936
 

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Foreigner

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Steve, you are all accusation and no substance.

You 'carpet bomb' my entire post, but you are unable to show that one single solitary thing I have said is incorrect.

That's what usually happens when facts are involved.

If you can find something you can refute with actual facts, then perhaps I will peruse you propoganda.

Until then......
 

Foreigner

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Steve,

I have presented multiple facts. Any one of them could be an excellent starting point.

Facts usually are.

Feel free to choose.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Steve.

Hi Retrobyter,

Are you a Jew? You use Jewish language as if you are a Jew. If not, you have somewhat of an identity problem.

The Gospel was never about showing how the "Land of Israel" is the promise to the Jews... If it was, the Jews never would have killed Jesus; they would have proclaimed Him king. You have a different gospel here brother... When did Jesus or the Apostles ever preach this strange gospel? If you say it was in Romans, then why did the Jews try to kill Paul because of his statements? You confuse the scriptures and the entire gospel message... The Jews have always tried to trick Christians into giving up their birth-right... those Christians who were deceived into accepting Jewish beliefs and customs were called Judaizers.

http://www.biblestud.../judaizers.html

"Are you a Jew? You use Jewish language as if you are a Jew. If not, you have somewhat of an identity problem."
WORSE! I'm a Messianic Jew! There's no identity problem here. I believe EXACTLY as we, both Jew and Gentile, are supposed to believe!

"The Gospel was never about showing how the 'Land of Israel' is the promise to the Jews... If it was, the Jews never would have killed Jesus; they would have proclaimed Him king."
Ummm..."never"? Apparently, you are missing key elements about the Gospel. And, you are wrong about the Gospel never showing how the "Land of Isra'el" is the promise to the Jews! Have you never read the Gospels?!

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of (the good news about) the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (within your grasp): repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

Notice this: There was no explanation for what the Gospel was or what the Kingdom of God was. It was assumed that they - the Jews - already KNEW what the Kingdom of God was and the Good News about it! Indeed, they DID know! (And, it wasn't the "death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ," either! Look at how early in the Gospel of Mark this was written! Who at that time would have even KNOWN that Yeshua` was the Messiah, let along that the Messiah would have to die?! And, you can forget about them knowing about the Resurrection! Even the closest disciples didn't grasp that, even as late as His Passion Week!)

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings (Gospel), that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good (Gospel), that publisheth salvation (rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV


It was the Good News about the coming Kingdom over which the Messiah would reign as God's emmissary, God's representative, the SAME Kingdom over which Sha'uwl (Saul), David, and Shlomoh (Solomon) reigned!

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV


Don't forget His commission to the Twelve:

Matthew 10:5-16
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach (herald), saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand (within your grasp).
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

KJV

And what about His commission to His disciples in Luke 10?

Luke 10:1-16
10 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them,
The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

KJV

Now, consider this passage in light of the above:

Ezekiel 34:11-28
11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.
17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.
18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?
19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.
21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;
22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.
27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.
28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.
KJV


Now, tell me that the Gospel about the Kingdom doesn't include promises about the Land!

"You have a different gospel here brother... When did Jesus or the Apostles ever preach this strange gospel?"

When did they NOT?! Don't try to pull the "another gospel" card on me, brother! It won't wash! If ANYONE is teaching "another gospel" than the one Yeshua` heralded in Mark 1:13-14, it is the teachers who say that the gospel is solely the "death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ!"

"If you say it was in Romans, then why did the Jews try to kill Paul because of his statements? You confuse the scriptures and the entire gospel message... The Jews have always tried to trick Christians into giving up their birth-right... those Christians who were deceived into accepting Jewish beliefs and customs were called Judaizers."

The Jews DID try to kill Paul, but they tried because He admitted that Yeshua` was not only the Messiah God promised but was the very Son of God! SOMEBODY has taught you that nonsense, but it wasn't Paul! Paul was a "Pharisee of the Pharisees!" He was a TORAH teacher! He observed the feasts, fasts, and festivals of the Mo`adiym (the yearly Holy-day cycle). Check out http://www.sabbathcovenant.com/doctrine/apostle_paul_teacher_of_the_tora.htm.

There WERE "Judaizers," but their whole argument was that one had to KEEP the Law in order to be right with God, to be accepted by God! That IS wrong! I would agree with you or anyone on that point! A person is justified by God alone when HE declares a person "righteous" and puts the penalty of his or her sins on Yeshua` when He sacrificed His body on the Roman execution stake called a "cross." No amount of good deeds will get one into God's Kingdom! One must come to an end of himself or herself and come humbly to God, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner," and ask for His mercy, recognizing (as Martin Luther did) that it is up to God whether He will extend His mercy to him or her!

Stick to the Scriptures and don't trust in theology! It will fail you eventually, because only God's Word is infallible!
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Steve.

Just a quick disclaimer: I know that there are a couple of errors above, namely "let along" instead of "let alone," and "Mark 1:13-14" instead of "Mark 1:14-15," but I'm not going to try the "Edit" button again! It messed up one of my posts today.