No need to confuse what's simple. Jesus The Christ Immanuel (God with us) said it best when He declared a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit (Matt.7).
Who is Israel?
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No need to confuse what's simple. Jesus The Christ Immanuel (God with us) said it best when He declared a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit (Matt.7).
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
Good. Then you can see that these demonstrations of overt love for others and overt keeping of God's commandments (namely, to love God and love others) are PROOF of the more covert love for God that already exists in a person's heart.
That means that these are NOT the conditions necessary for a person to be "born of God." They are the EFFECT and not the CAUSE! Thus, the CAUSE is being "born of God" already!
Thus, the only FIRST CAUSE of the cause of being "born of God" (looked at now as an effect) in 1 John 5:1a is that the person (whosoever) believes that Yeshua` (Jesus) is the Messiah (the Christ)!
It's not just the statement, however; it's the SURRENDER! When a Jew admits that Yeshua` is the Messiah, he's admitting that both he and his ancestors SCREWED UP BIG TIME! He's admitting that he and his ancestors have SINNED! And, isn't that what you really want to hear as the formula for being "born again?"
First, one must recognize that he or she is a sinner and has sinned against God.
Then, one must come to God AS HE OR SHE IS and say, "God, be merciful to me a sinner."
And it is THEN that they become justified by God through faith "unto good works."
AT THIS POINT, ONE IS JUSTIFIED BY GOD OR "BORN AGAIN."
Then, afterwards, one can perform good deeds...
(1) which are performed by the power of the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) now dwelling within the individual and...
(2) which DEMONSTRATE that one is already "born again!"
I think the REAL confusion is to be found in the meaning of the Greek word "pisteuoon," coming from "pisteuoo," meaning "I entrust [my spiritual well-being to God]," or more simply, "I trust [God]," and the weakened meaning of the translation word, "believeth."
Are we on the same page, yet?
Good. Then you can see that these demonstrations of overt love for others and overt keeping of God's commandments (namely, to love God and love others) are PROOF of the more covert love for God that already exists in a person's heart.
That means that these are NOT the conditions necessary for a person to be "born of God." They are the EFFECT and not the CAUSE! Thus, the CAUSE is being "born of God" already!
Thus, the only FIRST CAUSE of the cause of being "born of God" (looked at now as an effect) in 1 John 5:1a is that the person (whosoever) believes that Yeshua` (Jesus) is the Messiah (the Christ)!
It's not just the statement, however; it's the SURRENDER! When a Jew admits that Yeshua` is the Messiah, he's admitting that both he and his ancestors SCREWED UP BIG TIME! He's admitting that he and his ancestors have SINNED! And, isn't that what you really want to hear as the formula for being "born again?"
First, one must recognize that he or she is a sinner and has sinned against God.
Then, one must come to God AS HE OR SHE IS and say, "God, be merciful to me a sinner."
And it is THEN that they become justified by God through faith "unto good works."
AT THIS POINT, ONE IS JUSTIFIED BY GOD OR "BORN AGAIN."
Then, afterwards, one can perform good deeds...
(1) which are performed by the power of the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) now dwelling within the individual and...
(2) which DEMONSTRATE that one is already "born again!"
I think the REAL confusion is to be found in the meaning of the Greek word "pisteuoon," coming from "pisteuoo," meaning "I entrust [my spiritual well-being to God]," or more simply, "I trust [God]," and the weakened meaning of the translation word, "believeth."
Are we on the same page, yet?
teamventure
Well-Known Member
- Sep 6, 2011
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hey retrobyter, just wanting you to know that i've got your back. i'm not arguing with these antisemetic types but i'm still watching.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
teamventure
Well-Known Member
- Sep 6, 2011
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no problem. i have a jewish flag hanging up in my dads bedroom. i don't hide the fact that i bless the people of israel. God blesses me bcause of it.
To reject scattered Israel of the ten tribes, which were never known as Jews, is not an example of blessing the people of Israel.
God's Word is solid about the scattering of the ten tribes of the "house of Israel", and as being the majority of His people Israel, since they made up 10 out of 12 tribes. What the Jewish historian Josephus said about the 10 tribes agrees with that.
Trying to say that only those who call theirselves by the title of 'Jew' represent all of Israel is a falsehood. According to Bible history, only a portion of even Jews were actually of the tribe of Judah from Jacob. The Books of Ezra, Nehemiah, and even Esther, and 1 Kings and 2 Kings documents that as fact.
So if those who treat those Biblical and historical facts as false, and say it's an anti-Semitic teaching, then I say those who throw that out are themselves guilty of anti-Semitism by refusing to recognize the scattered ten tribes that today dwell that think they are Gentiles living among the Gentiles. Jewish scholars even know better than to claim the ten lost tribes matter is an anti-Semitic teaching.
God's Word is solid about the scattering of the ten tribes of the "house of Israel", and as being the majority of His people Israel, since they made up 10 out of 12 tribes. What the Jewish historian Josephus said about the 10 tribes agrees with that.
Trying to say that only those who call theirselves by the title of 'Jew' represent all of Israel is a falsehood. According to Bible history, only a portion of even Jews were actually of the tribe of Judah from Jacob. The Books of Ezra, Nehemiah, and even Esther, and 1 Kings and 2 Kings documents that as fact.
So if those who treat those Biblical and historical facts as false, and say it's an anti-Semitic teaching, then I say those who throw that out are themselves guilty of anti-Semitism by refusing to recognize the scattered ten tribes that today dwell that think they are Gentiles living among the Gentiles. Jewish scholars even know better than to claim the ten lost tribes matter is an anti-Semitic teaching.
The Nation of Israel has come back into existance via God's hand, in fulfillment of of His promise.
The fact that Israel is still alive after several attacks by multiple countries with larger armies and more military equipment whose sole stated purpose was the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of its people shows God's continued hand on that country.
People who want to criticize or explain it away can't bear up under the facts.
The fact that Israel is still alive after several attacks by multiple countries with larger armies and more military equipment whose sole stated purpose was the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of its people shows God's continued hand on that country.
People who want to criticize or explain it away can't bear up under the facts.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
You should know that I, for one, do NOT reject the 10 lost tribes of Isra'el, wherever they may be. They, too, are children of Isra'el and as such are just as important as the tribe of Y'hudah is. However, some of the claims as to who are the 10 lost tribes is questionable. If they are the lost tribes, great. However, for England to claim the "throne of David," for instance, is just wrong. That throne belongs ONLY to the tribe of Y'hudah, the Y'hudiym or the Jews because Yeshua` is of the tribe of Y'hudah!
Modern Isra'el does NOT exclusively limit citizenship to members of the tribe of Y'hudah. If one can show heritage through another tribe, such as Leviy or Re`uven, then they, too, can automatically be citizens of the state of Isra'el.
You should know that I, for one, do NOT reject the 10 lost tribes of Isra'el, wherever they may be. They, too, are children of Isra'el and as such are just as important as the tribe of Y'hudah is. However, some of the claims as to who are the 10 lost tribes is questionable. If they are the lost tribes, great. However, for England to claim the "throne of David," for instance, is just wrong. That throne belongs ONLY to the tribe of Y'hudah, the Y'hudiym or the Jews because Yeshua` is of the tribe of Y'hudah!
Modern Isra'el does NOT exclusively limit citizenship to members of the tribe of Y'hudah. If one can show heritage through another tribe, such as Leviy or Re`uven, then they, too, can automatically be citizens of the state of Isra'el.
Questionable according to who's doctrine? Man's, or God's per His Word?
God revealed what was to become of the ten tribes after their captivity and scattering, all the way up to their gathering by Christ Jesus at His coming. Someone who has not studied that per His Word first, is in no... position to even discern anything about them today.
To know what happened to them, and where they are today, and what promises from God identifies them, one must first learn that per God's Holy Writ, and then look for the evidence. But what many have done, that have not... done that Bible study first, is to blindly heed what 'others' only say about it. It's a matter that is not going to be revealed to the majority of the world today, not yet, not until Christ's second coming. But it will be revealed to the few today who dilligently study God's Word about it.
How would you... know that's a false claim? Were none of Judah scattered to the West per history? Afterall, God promised David there would never fail a man to sit upon his earthly throne (2 Samuel 7). And Gen.49:10 reveals David's throne is still to be established on earth all the way up to Christ's return. Does just someone saying that could never be possible on earth still today negate God's promise to David, or God's ability to fulfill that? Nope, of course not.
Not only that, but anyone can become a Jew, for even the Black singer-actor Sammy Davis Jr. was a Jew ( a religious Jew). Judaism today is not unlike Christianity; anyone of any race can become a Jew (a religious Jew), just as it was in the days of Esther (Esther 8:17) and among the returning remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi after their 70 years captivity from Babylon (Ezra 2 about the Nethinims and priests with no lineage from Israel; Josephus said all living in the land of Judea after that return then took the title of Jew). Even with the families of scribes per 1 Chronicles 2:55, we're shown they were Kenite foreigners from the nations of Canaan (Gen.15:19).
God warned His people Israel about that creeping in long, long ago, per Judges 2 & 3 when He rebuked Israel for not destroying all the nations of Canaan as He commanded. He then said He would USE... those foreigners of Canaan to test His people, to see if they would follow Him, or not. So they crept in among Israel through Bible history.
Salvation is open to all... that believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ and repent. But that creeping in event is still in effect upon Israel today, and will not end until Christ returns to end it. That's why many false doctrines still exist among orthodox Judaism, and still among the scattered ten tribes as Gentiles within Christianity.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
It's not about DOCTRINE; it's about whether they have a VALID CLAIM! Do they have the credentials that PROVE they are children of Isra'el? First and foremost, a child of Isra'el needs to be able to PROVE their lineage for the sake of his or her claim to the inheritance! If you think it's simply a matter of revelation in God's Word, you're sadly mistaken. It's not a subjective matter of opinion; it's an OBJECTIVE, CONCRETE, LITERAL DOCUMENT that PROVES one's heritage!
Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym (Jesus the Messiah of God), who was born "haMelekh Y'hudiym" ("the King of the Jews") IS THE LAST, AUTHENTIC CANDIDATE for Isra'el's King! As a believer in Yeshua`, you should KNOW this! It wouldn't matter if the royalty of England (or any other Western kingdom) had lineage to Y'hudah or not! Yeshua` is the FINAL KING! A kingdom needs three things to be a kingdom: a realm over which to rule, a willing people over whom to rule, and a rightful King! The nation of Isra'el has never had it's kingdom status since the Babylonian captivity because it has always had one of the three missing since then! That's why Isra'el's leader is called a "prime minister," a "chief steward," a manager of the kingdom as the "head servant" for the absentee King!
We're not talking about Judaism the religion; we're talking about Jews being part of God's Kingdom in the Land of Isra'el. To own an inheritance in the Land, one must be able to prove a legal heritage. Most of those, like Sammy Davis, Jr., who join Judaism as a sect don't have any actual desire to move to the Land of Isra'el. They put no value on it because they have no heritage there. Jews who move to Isra'el move there in spite of the threats of suicide bombers, car bombers, missiles from Gaza or from Egypt or from Syria or Lebanon! Those who have an inheritance there move there from a compelling passion that lies deep in their hearts! After every Pesach (Passover) Seder, one will hear the longing words, "Next year in Jerusalem!"
It's not about DOCTRINE; it's about whether they have a VALID CLAIM! Do they have the credentials that PROVE they are children of Isra'el? First and foremost, a child of Isra'el needs to be able to PROVE their lineage for the sake of his or her claim to the inheritance! If you think it's simply a matter of revelation in God's Word, you're sadly mistaken. It's not a subjective matter of opinion; it's an OBJECTIVE, CONCRETE, LITERAL DOCUMENT that PROVES one's heritage!
Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym (Jesus the Messiah of God), who was born "haMelekh Y'hudiym" ("the King of the Jews") IS THE LAST, AUTHENTIC CANDIDATE for Isra'el's King! As a believer in Yeshua`, you should KNOW this! It wouldn't matter if the royalty of England (or any other Western kingdom) had lineage to Y'hudah or not! Yeshua` is the FINAL KING! A kingdom needs three things to be a kingdom: a realm over which to rule, a willing people over whom to rule, and a rightful King! The nation of Isra'el has never had it's kingdom status since the Babylonian captivity because it has always had one of the three missing since then! That's why Isra'el's leader is called a "prime minister," a "chief steward," a manager of the kingdom as the "head servant" for the absentee King!
We're not talking about Judaism the religion; we're talking about Jews being part of God's Kingdom in the Land of Isra'el. To own an inheritance in the Land, one must be able to prove a legal heritage. Most of those, like Sammy Davis, Jr., who join Judaism as a sect don't have any actual desire to move to the Land of Isra'el. They put no value on it because they have no heritage there. Jews who move to Isra'el move there in spite of the threats of suicide bombers, car bombers, missiles from Gaza or from Egypt or from Syria or Lebanon! Those who have an inheritance there move there from a compelling passion that lies deep in their hearts! After every Pesach (Passover) Seder, one will hear the longing words, "Next year in Jerusalem!"
According to who's credentials though? Not all today that claim heritage of Israel can prove it by geneaology. That's why the Temple Mount Faithful group in today's Israel had to resort to DNA tests to find legitimate sons of Levi.
You're wrong that it's not firstly about revelation in God's Word per His prophecies. Lost Israel is especially defined by those prophecies in God's Word. They have to do with what He said would happen to them, and what He promised them, apart from the "house of Judah". (for this present world, that is).
Christ Jesus is not here ON EARTH yet sitting upon David's throne, which has always been on earth by the way.
You're also wrong about when the "kingdom of Israel" (ten tribes) lost it kingdom status. It was around 120 years BEFORE Judah ever went into captivity to Babylon! You'll find that written in 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17.
Judah, Benjamin, and Levi remained a kingdom in the south at Judea/Jerusalem (as the "house of Judah") for around 120 years AFTER the kings of Assyria had already taken the northern ten tribes captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes. Nebuchandnezzar, king of Babylon, did NOT... take the northern ten tribes captive.
So already, you reveal you haven't really studied all that per God's Word as written. Why then would anyone want to depend on what you say about where the ten lost tribes wound up later, and what God said about them after He scattered them?
In Israel today, there are both religous Jews, and lineage Jews living there. But those Jews who claim blood lineage from old Israel don't appear to treat religious Jews the same as themselves, which is definitely unlike Christian doctrine. But all that, including documented genealogy claims, is still beside the subject about the ten lost tribes of Israel scattering and revealed location per God's Word.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
Just a quick comment and then to bed.
You assume too much to say I haven't done my studies. I understand that Nebuchadnezzar never conquered the 10 northern tribes of Isra'el; HOWEVER, Bavel (Babylon) was conquered BY the Medes and Persians (through Koresh or Cyrus II the Great) who already had the 10 tribes living among them! Technically, the 10 tribes did NOT come back from the Babylonian captivity; however, some of them DID return with the captives in Bavel when Koresh gave His Edict of Restoration.
So, let's get the story straight, okay? I'm not saying that the others who did NOT return with the Jews to Isra'el didn't end up in the countries of Europe! They probably did! However, I believe THESE are the ones who are sent back in litters and on the shoulders of the Goyim when Yeshua` calls for them after He is reigning in Isra'el, regathering His family - His mishpachah.
I think you'll find - IF you take the time to consider carefully what I've said - that we're closer to being on the same page than you think!
Just a quick comment and then to bed.
You assume too much to say I haven't done my studies. I understand that Nebuchadnezzar never conquered the 10 northern tribes of Isra'el; HOWEVER, Bavel (Babylon) was conquered BY the Medes and Persians (through Koresh or Cyrus II the Great) who already had the 10 tribes living among them! Technically, the 10 tribes did NOT come back from the Babylonian captivity; however, some of them DID return with the captives in Bavel when Koresh gave His Edict of Restoration.
So, let's get the story straight, okay? I'm not saying that the others who did NOT return with the Jews to Isra'el didn't end up in the countries of Europe! They probably did! However, I believe THESE are the ones who are sent back in litters and on the shoulders of the Goyim when Yeshua` calls for them after He is reigning in Isra'el, regathering His family - His mishpachah.
I think you'll find - IF you take the time to consider carefully what I've said - that we're closer to being on the same page than you think!
No, I'm not assuming too much when I declare how you reveal that you have not... fully studied this subject of the ten tribes per God's Word.
Ezekiel 37 declares the rejoining of the ten tribes under Ephraim back with Judah in final, and that prophecy contains parameters that have NEVER come to pass to this day. And that's not the only Scripture example of that future event.
In Romans, Apostle Paul quotes from the Book of Hosea and applies it to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus, yet the Hosea Scripture he quoted was FIRST written specifically about the ten tribes under Ephraim, and not Judah. Why would Apostle Paul do that since he was learned in the Scriptures from the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel? It's because of Bible prophecy of what was to befall the ten tribes after they had been scattered among the Gentiles, and The Gospel of Jesus Christ manifesting among them. After Christ's crucifixion, just where was that Gospel manifested to the majority that would believe? Among the nations of Asia Minor and Europe.
Gen 48:3-6
3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.
5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
6 And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance.
(KJV)
Gen 48:14-20
14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
(KJV)
God foretold that "multitude of nations" idea first to Jacob...
Gen 35:10-11
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
(KJV)
So there's no twisting the Hebrew with those two Scripture examples backing each other up. It means literally, a multitude or assemblage of nations.
We're then required to do a bit of thinking about that prophecy to understand what specific idea it covers. God named Jacob with the new name Israel. Jacob blessed Joseph's two sons and said let his name Israel being named upon them. But as far as the 'world' is concerned, there's only ever been but one single... nation known as Israel. So HOW... would Ephraim's seed become literally "a multitude of nations", because that has to mean ISRAELITE nations, plural?To make sure... we know that's how the Scripture is written, God included the idea of a single 'nation' also in that with, "a nation..." that Jacob would become, along with that "company of nations" idea.
Thus to God, His Israel was to become literally "a multitude of nations", and Paul by quoting Hosea to Gentile believers, that's exactly what he was pointing to, the ten tribes under Ephraim becoming literally "a multitude of nations" where they would wind up, and believing Gentiles among them would be included. That idea is also exactly... what Paul was preaching in Romans 9 when he said...
Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(KJV)
That's about believing Gentiles becoming spiritual children of Abraham in the Promise to Abraham which was by Faith, and they thus have become part of the "commonwealth of Israel" under Christ Jesus...
Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(KJV)
Is that "commonwealth of Israel" Paul preached about the nation state in the holy land called Israel today? Nope! It's because the majority of Jews there STILL... refuse Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah, The Christ. But they are still beloved for the father's sakes, and God will not go back of His gifts of calling (Rom.11). They won't understand this until the 'blindness' our Heavenly Father put upon them is removed. And Paul said that's dependent upon the fullness of the Gentiles in coming to Christ Jesus.
Well, you said some of the claims about who the ten tribes are, is questionable. And you said it was wrong for those in England to claim the throne of David.
I don't think it is wrong, and actually myself personally, I know... it is not wrong for their claiming that. Yet those on the throne in England aren't the ones claiming that. If they agree to that, they certainly are keeping it a well guarded secret. But that throne is not only in England, it's also in Denmark, Netherlands, Spain, anywhere that members of that same royal family is sitting upon a throne. And few understand how the royal families of Europe are kin to each other.
Per the Book of Jeremiah, God ordained Jeremiah as a prophet to the nations, "to root out, to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant." (Jer.1:5-10). Strange how many want to deny that latter part of his commission "to build, and to plant."
Jer 31:28-33
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(KJV)
Hebrews 8 repeats that prophecy in regards to The New Covenant by The Blood of Jesus Christ. Notice how only the "house of Israel" is specifically mentioned in that last verse of Jer.31:33. After Israel's split in Solomon's days, that "house of Israel" label only applied to the ten northern tribes of Israel under Ephraim, the same Ephraim that was to become "a multitude of nations" per Gen.48.
So just what was Jeremiah given commission "to build, and to plant"? For me, it's obvious what that is pointing to. It's of how the ten tribes were to be built and planted... in a new location on earth. And that planting was to be directly related to that New Covenant Jesus Christ! That's where God re-established the majority of the people of Israel, along with the throne of David, and with scattered remnants of the "house of Judah" also among them, in the Christian West. But it was to be mainly "the house of Israel" (ten tribes) whom that New Covenant would be manifest upon, as per that Jer.31:33 verse, for the majority of Judah still refuse today.
Veteran
Do you believe Adam was Cains father? Yes or No please! No long drawn out explanation needed.
GEN4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Do you believe the Kenites are descendants of Cain and that Eve was seduced by Satan and that Satan is Cains's father? Yes or no once again no lang drawn out explanation is necessary.
Do you believe those In Israel today are Jews or Kenites?
I believe the devil ("that old serpent" per Rev.12:9) was Cain's spiritual father, if that's what you mean...
Gen 3:14-15
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(KJV)
Strong's Exahaustive Concordance defines the word 'Kenite' (Hebrew 'Qayin') as the first child. So who do you think that Qyain means? Cain. Many Bible scholars are agreed upon the origin of that name Qayin meaning 'Cain'.
In John 8, Jesus pointed to the scribes and said this to them...
John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(KJV)
1 Chr 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
(KJV)
The Kenites dwelt among the nations of Canaan, yet they have no Biblical lineage from any of the sons of Noah.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
That's just silly and wishful thinking. If you can't tell from the version that you're using where the "Kenites" came from, CHANGE VERSIONS! Or, better still, go back to the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE, HEBREW! What are y'all trying to do, perpetuate the nonsensical angel theory of the "sons of God and daughters of men?"
Sorry, guys, but there are NO UNICORNS (in the mythological sense)! No animals survived who were not aboard the Ark! Likewise, no race of beings survived who were not aboard the Ark! The Scriptures are clear that only eight souls survived! There are good reasons why the Book of Enoch was relegated to the Apocrypha and is non-canonical!
Let's start at the beginning and reinforce what many have learned as kids:
Gen 4:1
4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
KJV
Is there anything at all in that verse that even SUGGESTS that haSatan made it a "threesome?" OF COURSE NOT! Continue on...
Gen 4:2
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
KJV
In this verse, Adam is not even mentioned, and yet we will say that Adam fathered Abel but not Cain?! That's just nuts!
Now as far as "Kenites" are concerned, they are not a RACE nor a TRIBE! They are an OCCUPATION!
"Qayin" or "Cain" was the name of the first son born to Adam, but the word means "erected" or "created!" Only by extention can the word be said to mean "acquired" or "procured," which seemed to fit better in translation of what Chavah (Eve) said. She was actually saying that the LORD, YHVH, ERECTED a man from her! Thus, his name meant "Erected" or "Created," although not "created" in the same sense as the Hebrew word "bara'" means.
However, "qayin" is also the word for "spear" or "lance" because it, too, can be erected. Thus, a "Qeyniy" (or "Kenite") was one who wielded a "spear" or a "lance!" Look carefully at the words of the passages about Mosheh's (Moses') father-in-law, Chovav (Hobab):
Num. 10:29-32
29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the Lord said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the Lord hath spoken good concerning Israel.
30 And he said unto him, I will not go; but I will depart to mine own land, and to my kindred.
31 And he said, Leave us not, I pray thee; forasmuch as thou knowest how we are to encamp in the wilderness, and thou mayest be to us instead of eyes.
32 And it shall be, if thou go with us, yea, it shall be, that what goodness the Lord shall do unto us, the same will we do unto thee.
KJV
Judg. 4:11
11 Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh.
KJV
So, how can Chever (Heber) who was of the children of Chovav (Hobab), Mosheh's father-in-law, be a Qayniy (a Kenite) when he was of the children of Chovav who was a MIDYANIY (a MIDIANITE)?! The answer is simple; he was part of a troop of spear-throwers or lance-wielders, and the term has nothing to do with his lineage!
That's just silly and wishful thinking. If you can't tell from the version that you're using where the "Kenites" came from, CHANGE VERSIONS! Or, better still, go back to the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE, HEBREW! What are y'all trying to do, perpetuate the nonsensical angel theory of the "sons of God and daughters of men?"
Sorry, guys, but there are NO UNICORNS (in the mythological sense)! No animals survived who were not aboard the Ark! Likewise, no race of beings survived who were not aboard the Ark! The Scriptures are clear that only eight souls survived! There are good reasons why the Book of Enoch was relegated to the Apocrypha and is non-canonical!
Let's start at the beginning and reinforce what many have learned as kids:
Gen 4:1
4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
KJV
Is there anything at all in that verse that even SUGGESTS that haSatan made it a "threesome?" OF COURSE NOT! Continue on...
Gen 4:2
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
KJV
In this verse, Adam is not even mentioned, and yet we will say that Adam fathered Abel but not Cain?! That's just nuts!
Now as far as "Kenites" are concerned, they are not a RACE nor a TRIBE! They are an OCCUPATION!
"Qayin" or "Cain" was the name of the first son born to Adam, but the word means "erected" or "created!" Only by extention can the word be said to mean "acquired" or "procured," which seemed to fit better in translation of what Chavah (Eve) said. She was actually saying that the LORD, YHVH, ERECTED a man from her! Thus, his name meant "Erected" or "Created," although not "created" in the same sense as the Hebrew word "bara'" means.
However, "qayin" is also the word for "spear" or "lance" because it, too, can be erected. Thus, a "Qeyniy" (or "Kenite") was one who wielded a "spear" or a "lance!" Look carefully at the words of the passages about Mosheh's (Moses') father-in-law, Chovav (Hobab):
Num. 10:29-32
29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the Lord said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the Lord hath spoken good concerning Israel.
30 And he said unto him, I will not go; but I will depart to mine own land, and to my kindred.
31 And he said, Leave us not, I pray thee; forasmuch as thou knowest how we are to encamp in the wilderness, and thou mayest be to us instead of eyes.
32 And it shall be, if thou go with us, yea, it shall be, that what goodness the Lord shall do unto us, the same will we do unto thee.
KJV
Judg. 4:11
11 Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh.
KJV
So, how can Chever (Heber) who was of the children of Chovav (Hobab), Mosheh's father-in-law, be a Qayniy (a Kenite) when he was of the children of Chovav who was a MIDYANIY (a MIDIANITE)?! The answer is simple; he was part of a troop of spear-throwers or lance-wielders, and the term has nothing to do with his lineage!
Nothing in that verse suggest that Satan is Cains spiritual father. Doesn’t the New Testament teaches that Christ is the fulfillment of this verse?
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
H7014 qayin kah'-yin
The same as H7013 (with a play upon the affinity to H7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe: - Cain, Kenite (-s).
Clearly the Kenites after the flood are not the descendents of Cain.
Besides even if the preflood Kenites were the descendents of Cain the flood they would have all been eliminated during the flood. God told Noah the reason why He would destroy all humans was because mankind had become wicked (6:10-13). If the purpose of the flood was to wipe out sin, then why would God allow some of the "wicked Kenites" to survive? The only logical explanation is to believe that God wiped out all mankind, including all the Kenites.
So let’s put this in it’s proper context and see if Christ was talking to Cain’s descendents
or Abraham’s descendents. Who was Christ talking to in John8?
Joh 8:33-34 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to
any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I
say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
So as we can see even though they may have been sinners they were still the descendents of Abraham not Cain. So they are still physically Jews not Kenites.
LOL surely you jest! If all flesh was destroyed in the flood then all who live after the flood are descendents of Noah! Are the following verses in eerror or is our friend veteran in error?
Gen 6:10-13 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth
Additionally, in Genesis 9:11 God promises Noah that He would never again destroy all flesh by means of a flood. But if this flood were merely a local community flood which did not even reach the people of the land of Nod, as Murray claims, then God must have lied because we still have had hundreds of local floods over the years. The only way to affirm that God kept His promise is to believe that this flood universally destroyed all human life. Regardless of whether one believes that the flood of Noah covered the entire earth, or only a portion of it, the evidence is clear that this flood destroyed all mankind except for one family.
Have you been listening to Arnold Murray? You use the same arguments he uses, with the only variation being that you say Cain is spiritually the son of Satan. Have you made this variation because there is no way to get around the fact that Adam was Cains father?
Afterall Cain was not concieved while in the garden but after they were sent out from it.
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
For those interested in the truth about Arnold Murrays teachings might I suggest the following web site http://carm.org/serp...eed-and-kenites Which exposes Murray and his teachings for what they really are!
So now we should re-interpret the whole idea of Biblical names, and apply some type of ancient Indian naming convention like 'two dogs running' or 'man that chops wood' instead of staying to how God's Word points to different peoples with different names? Right.
Thankfully, our Heavenly Father well knew what He was doing when He gave His prophets to write down the geneologies of different peoples with different names, and that's how His Word is very clear that the people called Canaanites were not of the lineage of Israel, and nor were the Kenites.
Yet per His Word, one can also live in an area as a foreigner and be called by the name of the people of the land, like Moses' father-in-law was, since he was actually of the lineage of Midian, from the lineage of Abraham.
If you want to deny that God's Word which is very clear that the devil has his own servants on this earth that follow him, that's up to you. Doing that won't change His Word about it though.
In John 8 when Christ called the scribes and Pharisees sons of the 'first' murderer, that was a direct reference to Cain, the first murderer. That's who that "thy seed" of Gen.3:15 represents that God spoke of to that old serpent there.
This is probably one of the greatest mysteries of this present world since Eden, because God revealed two manner of people upon this earth ordained to be against each other, all the way up to Christ's second coming. One group is His people, and the other group belong to the devil, even as my Lord Jesus revealed in His parable of the tares of the field...
Matt 13:38-40
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
(KJV)
That's why man's wishing to form some kind of super Utopia world brotherhood upon this earth is one huge joke, because the 'emnity' between the two groups will never... be settled by any man nor by any people on earth! Only God through His Son can settle it, and He will settle it. So all of man's ignorance in thinking that all peoples on this earth will be saved is gross blindness.
Well said Veteran; let me ask you where are the descendents of the House of Israel located today?
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
All over, but most of them settled in Asia Minor and Europe, (i.e., the ten tribes which is the "house of Israel" per God's Word after the kingdom split).
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