Who is Israel?

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JLB

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Here are some scriptures that describe different people and there encounters with God.

Please see the progression of understanding in these scriptures, The Angel of The Lord to Lord to God.


Exodus 3:1-6 Moses

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." 6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.


Genesis 16:7-13 Hagar

7 Now the Angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And He said, "Hagar, Sarai's maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai." 9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand." 10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude." 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her: "Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man's hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?"


Judges 13 Read all Samsons Parents


13 So the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Of all that I said to the woman let her be careful. 14 She may not eat anything that comes from the vine, nor may she drink wine or similar drink, nor eat anything unclean. All that I commanded her let her observe." 15 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" 19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time."


Did you get that in verse 18 - And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"

A reference to Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


More to come ...


For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hebrews 1:5,6

When you here Thus says The Lord [YHWH]; thats the Spirit of Christ!

For example:

Isaiah 43:1-7

1 But now, thus says the Lord,[YHWH] who created you, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine. 2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you. 3 For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior ...


1 Peter 1:10-11

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.


And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us!


Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess That JESUS CHRIST IS LORD [YHWH] to the glory of God The Father!!!!
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran, HeRoseFromTheDead and JLB.

Do you three feel better now? Did you get all that out of your system? I HOPE so, because it's time to move on!

Matthew 19:16-17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
KJV

Mark 10:17-18
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
KJV

Luke 18:18-19
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
KJV

John 8:38-59
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father.
Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them,
If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered,
I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered,
If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV


You guys are quick to point out the "I am" part of verse 58, but y'ou NEGLECT all the other points I've highlighted for you. Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym - Jesus the Messiah (Christ) of God - is NOT identical to the Father! He may be a reflection of Him, and He may be totally in sync with Him in His thoughts and plans, but They are NOT identical!

I have already acknowledged and admitted that Yeshua` was/is the Word of God (John 1:1-14); however, that does NOT mean that He is God, and He CERTAINLY isn't the Father!!! He is the SON of God!
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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You guys are quick to point out the "I am" part of verse 58, but y'ou NEGLECT all the other points I've highlighted for you. Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym - Jesus the Messiah (Christ) of God - is NOT identical to the Father! He may be a reflection of Him, and He may be totally in sync with Him in His thoughts and plans, but They are NOT identical!
I have already acknowledged and admitted that Yeshua` was/is the Word of God (John 1:1-14); however, that does NOT mean that He is God, and He CERTAINLY isn't the Father!!! He is the SON of God!

I don't think any of us have claimed Jesus is identical with the father, whatever that means. I certainly haven't. There are clear distinctions. Jesus is clearly subject to the father; but he also clearly has the nature of God, and is clearly the visible form of God. It's like saying my body is not identical with my soul. but both are me, and both are man. The body is visible and cannot contain the invisible soul, even though the soul dwells in it and expresses itself through it.

If my body and soul are subject to God through my spirit, then righteousness reigns. If my spirit is subject to my body and soul, sin reigns. That is what Jesus was witnessing about when he said that no good thing dwelt in him. The righteous nature of God is such that the visible form of God is subject to the invisible God through the spirit. That is contrasted with the nature of sinful man in which the spirit is subject to the body and soul. Jesus has restored the correct hierarchy of obedience to man.
 

JLB

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Retrobyter wrote -

You guys are quick to point out the "I am" part of verse 58, but y'ou NEGLECT all the other points I've highlighted for you. Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym - Jesus the Messiah (Christ) of God - is NOT identical to the Father! He may be a reflection of Him, and He may be totally in sync with Him in His thoughts and plans, but They are NOT identical!

I have already acknowledged and admitted that Yeshua` was/is the Word of God (John 1:1-14); however, that does NOT mean that He is God, and He CERTAINLY isn't the Father!!! He is the SON of God!




I have never said Jesus Christ is God The Father.

All I have done is give you scripture after scripture that proves he is Lord [YHWH].


If you want to argue with scripture that is between you and God!


John 1:1-3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.


Genesis 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


Colossians 1:15-17

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.


1 Timothy 3:16

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.



Man begets man.

God begets God.

He is not created, He is the only beggotten of The Father.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


May The Spirit of The Eternal God enlighten your heart to this truth.


In Him, JLB
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, JLB.

Yes, you are the exception to that point among the three of you. You DID say that you have never said Jesus Christ is God The Father. And, yes, He is the "only begotten" of the Father, but one must be careful with those words, too. There are four different Greek words rendered as "begotten" in the KJV: gennaoo, anagennaoo, monogenees, and proototokos. The first one (NT:1080) means "to be procreated"; the second one (NT:313) means "to be begotten or born again"; the third one (NT:3439) means "only-born" or "solely-born"; and the fourth one (NT:4416) means "first-born."

NT:1080 was used in Matthew 1:1-16, 20; 2:1, 4; 19:12; 26:24; Mark 14:21; Luke 1:13, 35, 57; 23:29; John 1:13; 3:3-8; 8:41; 9:2, 19, 20, 32, 34; 16:21; 18:37; Acts 2:8; 7:8, 20, 29; 13:33; 22:3, 28; Romans 9:11; 1 Corinthians 4:15; Galatians 4:23, 24, 29; 2 Timothy 2:23; Philemon 10; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5; 11:12, 23; 2 Peter 2:12; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, and 18. It was translated as "begotten" in Acts 13:33; 1 Corinthians 4:15; Philemon 10; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5; 1 John 5:1, and 18.

NT:313 was used in 1 Peter 1:3 and 23. It was only translated as "begotten" in 1 Peter 1:3.

NT:3539 was used in Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38; John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Hebrews 11:17; and 1 John 4:9. It was translated as "only begotten" in the last six verses beginning in John 1:14.

NT:4416 was used in Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 11:28; 12:23; and Revelation 1:5. It was translated as "firstborn" most of the time, but was translated as "firstbegotten" in Hebrews 1:6 and "first begotten" in Revelation 1:5.

I appreciate the Scriptures you provided, but I don't argue with Scripture. I may INVESTIGATE Scripture to be sure we are understanding it the same way it was written, but I change my viewpoint to reflect the findings of the investigation, regardless what I find.
 

veteran

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John 14:6-9
6 Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.

8 Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'"
(KJV)


Christ and His disciples = 7

the unbelieving Pharisees = 0
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

John 14:6-9
6 Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.
8 Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'"
(KJV)


Christ and His disciples = 7

the unbelieving Pharisees = 0

Don't be a dippity-do-dah. The passage you just quoted does NOT mean that the Son is equal to the Father; it just means that they are on the same page! He can't be referring to seeing the Father actually. Can't you see how verse 6 contradicts that interpretation of verses 7 and 9? He is talking about seeing HOW THE FATHER THINKS and HOW THE FATHER ACTS through Himself because He IS a reflection of God in word and in deed!

Don't forget that we also have John 1:18:

John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KJV


That's important! Furthermore, not only did Yeshua` say both statements, but we get this information from the same source, the account of the Good News by Yochanan (John)!
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Don't be a dippity-do-dah. The passage you just quoted does NOT mean that the Son is equal to the Father; it just means that they are on the same page! He can't be referring to seeing the Father actually. Can't you see how verse 6 contradicts that interpretation of verses 7 and 9? He is talking about seeing HOW THE FATHER THINKS and HOW THE FATHER ACTS through Himself because He IS a reflection of God in word and in deed!
Don't forget that we also have John 1:18:
John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KJV

You keep stumbling over the son = father misconception. That is in your mind, not mine; I can't speak for veteran. The father reveals and expresses himself to his creation in the form of his son (as witnessed by John 1:18 and other verses). Your body and soul are not equal, but your soul expresses itself through your body. They are only equal in the sense that they are both you. The son and the father are not equal, but the father expresses himself through his son . They are only equal in the sense that they are both God. Though many times it does, the term God doesn't always refer to the father.
 

JLB

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Your body and soul are not equal, but your soul expresses itself through your body. They are only equal in the sense that they are both you.



Excellent!
 

veteran

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If Christ Jesus is not 'God with us' like His Name "Immanuel" means per Matt.1:23 and Isaiah 7, then we have no Salvation, for flesh cannot save us. But that's exactly what the children of the devil want us to think about Jesus of Nazareth, that He is not God having coming the flesh. They don't want us to be saved, since they are not. They want company in the lake of fire.
 

lawrance

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If Christ Jesus is not 'God with us' like His Name "Immanuel" means per Matt.1:23 and Isaiah 7, then we have no Salvation, for flesh cannot save us. But that's exactly what the children of the devil want us to think about Jesus of Nazareth, that He is not God having coming the flesh. They don't want us to be saved, since they are not. They want company in the lake of fire.
For they have been bewitched and lead others astray.
 

JLB

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The Word is the expression of The Will of The Father.

The Word is Manifested by the power of The Spirit.

It was the will of The Father to bring forth Light in the beginning.

The Word spoke the light into the darkness and light was manifested by the power of The Spirit.



This is how the Godhead functions. The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit are ONE.


We see this operation in the ressurection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

The scripture tells us That God raised Jesus from the dead -

... that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Yet Jesus said - destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it, the temple He spoke of was His body. John 2:19-21



The operation is excellent!

Jesus is excellent!

The Godhead is excellent!

Thanks, JLB
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

You keep stumbling over the son = father misconception. That is in your mind, not mine; I can't speak for veteran. The father reveals and expresses himself to his creation in the form of his son (as witnessed by John 1:18 and other verses). Your body and soul are not equal, but your soul expresses itself through your body. They are only equal in the sense that they are both you. The son and the father are not equal, but the father expresses himself through his son . They are only equal in the sense that they are both God. Though many times it does, the term God doesn't always refer to the father.

Yeshua` is NEVER called "God the Son"; He is called the "Son of God!" That's a BIG difference!

And, here's ANOTHER analogy that doesn't work for me. You see, I have slightly different definitions for "soul" and "spirit," as well. The words translated "spirit" are the Hebrew word "ruwach" and the Greek word "pneuma," from which we get our word "pneumatic." Here's what Strong's Dictionaries say:

OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath, cool, courage, mind, quarter, side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

OT:7306 ruwach (roo'-akh); a primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):
KJV - accept, smell, touch, make of quick understanding.

NT:4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5590.

NT:4154 pneoo (pneh'-o); a primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. breeze:
KJV - blow. Compare NT:5594.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, the primary meanings of these words is "breath" or a "wind" or "current of air" or a "blast," and only "by resemblance" or "by analogy or figuratively" do the words mean "spirit."

In the same way, the words usually translated as "soul" are the Hebrew word "nefesh" (sometimes written as "nephesh") and the Greek word "psuchee," from which we get our word "psychology." Again, here are Strong's entries in their respective Dictionaries:

OT:5315 nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead (-ly), desire, [dis-] contented, fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, would have it.

OT:5314 naphash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

NT:5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'); from NT:5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from NT:4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from NT:2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew OT:5315, OT:7307 and OT:2416):
KJV - heart (+-ily), life, mind, soul, us, you.

NT:5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho); a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from NT:4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of NT:109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
KJV - wax cold.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Therefore, the "spirit" is simply the "breath" of an individual, and the "soul" is the creature that "breathes." Thus, the creature that "breathes" is literally the combination of the body and the "breath"; or, the "soul" is the combination of the body and the "spirit." In the most literal interpretation, then, the "spirit" is merely the "breath" and the "soul" is the combination of a body and it's "breath." Thus, when a person dies and "gives up the spirit," he/she literally gives up his/her breath, and the body ceases to be a "soul," ceases to be a breathing creature. The person will not be a "soul" again until he/she receives his/her breath in the resurrection.

Even the most figurative interpretation should only be if one understands the "breath," the "spirit," as the "immaterial part of a creature." Then, when one "gives up the spirit" in death, one's "spirit" or "immaterial part" goes to be with the Lord while one's body ceases to be a "soul" and is buried. However, I have more of a tendency to believe the former over the latter. I believe that a person's breath is separated from his/her body and he/she ceases to be a breather and the body is committed to the ground.

So, in light of this, tell me again how this scenario can be analogous to the Son and the Father?
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Yeshua` is NEVER called "God the Son"; He is called the "Son of God!" That's a BIG difference!

What a silly, inconsequential point. Yeshua called himself the Son of Man, but is never called Man the Son. So according to your reasoning he could not be man. Silly.

So, in light of this, tell me again how this scenario can be analogous to the Son and the Father?

I will not tell you anything based on your delusional presuppositions. IMO, you are not here to learn, but to deceive.
 

JLB

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'Thus says the Lord God.' He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house. Ezekial 3:27
 

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HOW ARE GOD THE FATHER AND YESHUA ONE?

To most Jews, including many Messianics, the nature of God is defined in the Shema:

DEUTERONOMY 6:4 " Hear [sh[sup]e[/sup]ma'], O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one [echad]! (NKJV)

Messianics apply this understanding of the oneness of God to a confusing statement by Yeshua recorded in the tenth chapter of John's Gospel. In response to the Jews' request to confirm that he was the prophesied Messiah (John 10:24), Yeshua stated: JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one [hen]." (NASU)

What did he mean by this declaration? Was Yeshua here applying the Shema to himself and stating that he and God the Father were the same being? Was he proclaiming that he was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, as Trinitarianism teaches? Was Yeshua saying that he and the Father were of the same essence or substance? Just what exactly was he trying to convey?

We will closely examine the Hebrew word for "one" (echad) a little later in this study. First, let's look at the Greek word hen.

In Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament, the late Professor Vincent states that hen, the Greek word translated "one" in John 10:30, is "the neuter, not the masculine είς, one person" (p. 197, vol. II).

Regarding this statement by Yeshua, the Abingdon Bible Commentary says: " V. 30 does not affirm a metaphysical unity, but a moral, and we must not read the later creeds into the words" (p. 1079).

In A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown write of this verse:

Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying, 'We (two Persons) are One (Thing).' Perhaps 'one interest' expresses nearly, though not quite, the purport of the saying. (p. 414, vol. III, part I)

The use of hen in John 10:30 clearly indicates that Yeshua was not claiming that he and the Father were the same being. An examination of how the same Greek word hen ("one") is used in other Scriptures will help us see what Christ did intend to convey by his statement.

Let's look at Yeshua's prayer to the Father on the night before his crucifixion. In this supplication, he speaks several times of the state of being "one":

JOHN 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be ONE [hen] even as We are. (NASU)

Here Yeshua prays that God the Father would keep his disciples in His name (Heb. YHVH, the very same name which the Father had given to Yeshua), that they could be one just as Yeshua and God were one. The key question that we must answer about this statement is this:

How was it possible for Yeshua's disciples to be ONE in the same way that Yeshua and the Father were ONE?

A little later, Yeshua reiterates his request to God regarding the "oneness" of all believers:

JOHN 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; 21 that they all may be ONE [hen], as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE [hen] in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. 22 And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE [hen] just as we are ONE [hen]: 23 I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one [eis], and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me." (NKJV)

Here Yeshua further defines the "oneness" shared by him and his Father. He says that the Father was IN him, and that he was IN the Father. Before we can go any further, we must first identify HOW God the Father was in Christ, and HOW Christ was in the Father.

To see how the Father was in Yeshua, we need to go back to the time of his baptism:

LUKE 3:21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while he prayed, the heaven was opened. 22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in you I am well pleased." 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, (NKJV)

As the symbolic form of the dove indicated, the Father came to dwell within His Son through the Holy Spirit at the time Yeshua's ministry began. Of course this does not mean that Christ was void of the Holy Spirit before this time. However, at his baptism Yeshua was given an unlimited measure of the Holy Spirit (John 3:34) to fulfill his earthly mission.

Yeshua received the Spirit (mind) of God thus He and the Father were one.


To fully understand how the indwelling of God the Father in Yeshua was through His Spirit, we must grasp the true nature of the Holy Spirit. Most Christians believe that the Spirit is the third person in the divine Trinity. However, this teaching is not scriptural. Paul defines God's Spirit for us in his first letter to the Corinthians:

I CORINTHIANS 2:9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (NKJV)

In the Bible, the heart corresponds to the mind as the place where thought and understanding take place. As many Scriptures show (cf. Gen. 6:5; Isa. 65:17; Jer. 3:16; 23:20; Mark 7:21), the heart and mind are synonymous. In fact, the Authorized Version even translates the Hebrew ruach ("spirit") as "mind" in several places (Gen. 26:35; Pro. 29:11; Eze. 11:5; 20:32; Hab. 1:11). So in I Corinthians 2:9, Paul is saying that it hasn't entered into the mind "of man" (Gr. anthropou, lit. "of mankind") what God has prepared for humanity.

I CORINTHIANS 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. (NKJV)

Here Paul qualifies his earlier statement. There are some people who do know what God has prepared for mankind, because He has revealed it to the minds of those who have His Holy Spirit.v

I CORINTHIANS 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so [houtos kai] no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (NKJV)

In verse 11, Paul draws an analogy between the spirit (i.e., "heart" or "mind") of man and the Spirit of God. In his own peculiar style, Paul tells us that God's Holy Spirit is really His Mind. To demonstrate this, he draws a comparison between the human spirit and God's Spirit. He tells us that only the spirit ("mind") within a man knows the thoughts of that man. Paul then goes on to say that only the Spirit ("Mind") of God knows the thoughts of God. The connecting phrase "even so," a translation of the Greek houtos kai, shows that Paul is comparing the human spirit or mind in the first part of this verse with God's Spirit or Mind in the final part. He explains this concept more fully in the next few verses.

I CORINTHIANS 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ. (NKJV)

How do we have the mind of God in us that was also in the Messiah? Through God's Holy Spirit.

This is profound to our understanding but it will take some study for your mind to comprehend the meaning of the teaching.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob
 

JLB

Member
Mar 25, 2012
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HOW ARE GOD THE FATHER AND YESHUA ONE.

We try to reason about spiritual matters from a natural perspective.


The Spirit is likened to water. For out of you belly shall flow rivers of living water, this He spake of The Spirit.

So from that I would like to illustrate:


Imagine two glass's half full of water, now pour one into another.

Now define to me how the two glss's of water are NOT ONE.



Thanks, JLB
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
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The blind scribes and Pharisees also had great difficulty with this question Christ Jesus asked them...

Luke 20:41-44
41 And He said unto them, "How say they that Christ is David's son?
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand,
43 Till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.'
44 David therefore calleth Him Lord, how is He then his son?"
(KJV)

Since Christ is David's son per lineage and prophecy, but David called Christ "my Lord" per the Psalms, how then is Christ David's son?
 

kjhughes

New Member
Jun 10, 2012
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Israel is Mine! Watchmen, Sound the Trumpet, the Alarm of War!...Says the Lord

Listen:
11/1/07 From God The Father - A Letter Given to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

Thus says The Lord God: Weep, O nations! Cry, all peoples! The Lord has lifted up His voice, and His face is set hard against you!...

O mighty and perverse nations, you shall be forsaken and left utterly desolate!... IN RUINS! Says The Lord God of Hosts. No more shall you contend with Me in your uplifting, in your upholding, of all this wickedness!... YOU HAVE FORSAKEN ME! No more shall you stand there before My face, with your noses in the air!



Behold, even My own people go the way of the afflicted of sin,

Following after those desolate of the Spirit

Who remain married to this world...



Yet I shall save them out of all their troubles!



For My own name’s sake will I do it!...



For the sake of Judah, I will cover them;

For the sake of Jacob, I shall hold them in safety;

And for the sake of David, My servant, I shall gather them under My wing.



O city of David, My Jerusalem, give Me glory! For The Lord has seen your travail, for it has come. Yet it shall not stand, for you are Mine... I am married unto you! Vengeance is Mine! Says The Lord. And I, Myself, shall go before you and fight against them!

And those who devise evil against you shall be thrown down! They shall not stand! For they have agreed together as one, and as one shall their agreement be turned into death... The grave shall be their reward! Recompense, in full, shall I give them in My hot displeasure! In My fury I shall destroy them!... Save a sixth part who shall not be counted among the condemned, the punished of My anger, says The Lord.



Beloved of The Shepherd, this you shall see;

Lo, you shall behold it with your own eyes...



And shortly thereafter, you and yours shall be no more in the earth.