Who is Israel?

Shalom, Saint.

Saint said:

Yeshua received the Spirit (mind) of God thus He and the Father were one.



This is profound to our understanding but it will take some study for your mind to comprehend the meaning of the teaching.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Click to expand...

Thank you, Bob, for all that. THAT'S what I'm talking about!

I appreciate your input.

Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

What a silly, inconsequential point. Yeshua called himself the Son of Man, but is never called Man the Son. So according to your reasoning he could not be man. Silly.



I will not tell you anything based on your delusional presuppositions. IMO, you are not here to learn, but to deceive.

Click to expand...

It's not a "silly, inconsequential point"; it's fundamental to this discussion! Besides, one can see that the Son of Man is human; therefore, He is of the progeny of Adam. However, can the same be said to be true for the Son of God? Is He indeed of the same substance as God the Father? or was He called the "Son of God" for another reason? What does it mean to be a "Son of God?"

Furthermore, I really don't care what you think I am here to do, but I'll say it plainly: I am here to learn; however, I will not pay attention to the rhetoric of trite statements and historical arguments which are the pat answers of the organized Catholic Church by which they appeased themselves as they FORCED others to comply with the status quo - THEIR take on the matter! We've been taught trinitarian beliefs ever since, and hardly anyone has a different viewpoint because WE DON'T HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINT! We don't even KNOW of an alternative (except the extremes of Jehovah's Witnesses)! Did you know that there are other beliefs, such as binitarian? I'm not saying that's necessarily what I believe, but why is the stance, "It's trinitarian or you're a heretic"?

In the late first and second centuries, they were having productive (although somewhat heated) discussions on the topic. Then, all of a sudden - who knows why - the Roman Catholic Church said, "This is the way it is. End of discussion," and no more discussion was allowed ... under pain of death! Why is that? Did somebody say something to the wrong person? Did someone get their toes stepped on? Only God knows the truth about this, but I believe that it is terribly closed-minded to shut down the discussion in an oligarchical way, and THAT makes that closed-mindedness "heretical!" It falls into the camp of the Nicolaitans!

So, when I hear one of you give the standard, pat answers without giving it much thought and conclude with "It's trinitarian or you're a heretic," I bristle with indignation! Shame on ANYONE who is not willing to discuss an issue!

We are told to test all things Roy and I find it remarkable that so many are willing to blindly accept the largely political proclamation of the RCC of the third century and never question the facts of the debate that ensued leading up to that proclamation. It was largely driven by the Roman Emperor Constantine, the same Emperor that gave us Sun-Day to worship on because he would have nothing to do with any Jewish worship day; the reason being, they were the one's that killed Yeshua. Even the RCC admits that there was no basis for changing from the Sabbath to Sunday.
In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob




.

Shalom to all who are reading.

Have you ever considered the last conundrum that Yeshua` (Jesus) gave to the P'rushiym (Pharisees)?

Matthew 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
KJV

The passage quoted is Psalm 110:1:

Psalm 110:1-7
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The LORD at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
KJV

The subject in verse 1 is "the LORD" or the tetragrammaton, "YHWH." However, the indirect object is the word translated "my Lord" or "Adoniy." This word is sometimes mistaken for Adonai, and they are related; however they are ot the same.

Just as Sarah called Avraham (Abraham), "Lord," it was common for anyone of a man's household to refer to him that way. So, Yeshua`s point was that IF the Messiah of prophecy was the "Son of David," why did David, under inspiration, call the Messiah, his SON his Lord? The term was used backwards! The father should not be calling one of his grandchildren "my Lord!"

And, my point: If "Adoniy" refers to Yeshua` the Messiah, then WHO is "YHVH?" The name CANNOT refer to the Messiah!

That's enough for now.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom to all who are reading.

Have you ever considered the last conundrum that Yeshua` (Jesus) gave to the P'rushiym (Pharisees)?

Matthew 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
KJV

The passage quoted is Psalm 110:1:

Psalm 110:1-7
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The LORD at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
KJV

The subject in verse 1 is "the LORD" or the tetragrammaton, "YHWH." However, the indirect object is the word translated "my Lord" or "Adoniy." This word is sometimes mistaken for Adonai, and they are related; however they are ot the same.

Just as Sarah called Avraham (Abraham), "Lord," it was common for anyone of a man's household to refer to him that way. So, Yeshua`s point was that IF the Messiah of prophecy was the "Son of David," why did David, under inspiration, call the Messiah, his SON his Lord? The term was used backwards! The father should not be calling one of his grandchildren "my Lord!"

And, my point: If "Adoniy" refers to Yeshua` the Messiah, then WHO is "YHVH?" The name CANNOT refer to the Messiah!

That's enough for now.

Click to expand...

That does nothing to the context of the question Jesus Christ proposed to the Pharisees of why David called Him Lord if Christ is David's son. I think you well know Christ Jesus was talking about Himself as David's Lord.

Not sure what your looking for Roy but I'll try this...

PSALM 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool." (NKJV)

Here, David shows the Most High God's promise to David's Lord to grant him authority over his enemies. We know from Yeshua's own exposition of this passage that he equated himself with David's Lord (Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44).

Both Sirach 51:10 and Psalm 110:1 show that there was an ancient recognition of the fact that the Most High God had delegated authority over His portion, Israel (Deu. 32:9) to a subordinate, identified by Sirach as God's Son. Sirach's understanding is verified by the New Testament use of Psalm 110:1 to refer to the "only begotten Son" of God, Jesus Christ (Acts 2:34-36; Heb. 1:13).

The apostle Paul wrote something similar in his first epistle to the Corinthians:

I CORINTHIANS 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (NKJV)

In all these writings, we see that there are two "Gods" (Heb. 'elohim) over Israel. For Sirach, there was (1) the Lord, the Father of (2) his Lord. David records (1) the LORD speaking to (2) his Lord. Paul tells us of one (1) God and one (2) Lord. Each of these examples shows us that two entities were understood to be present.


What is the Sirach? From Wikipedia:

The Book of the All-Virtuous Wisdom of Jesus ben Sira[sup][1][/sup] ( /ˈsaɪræk/), commonly called the Wisdom of Sirach or simply Sirach, and also known as The Book Ecclesiasticus (/ɨˌkliːziˈæstɪkəs/) or Siracides (/saɪˈræsɨdiːz/), is a work from the early 2nd century B.C. (approximately 200-175 B.C.) written by the Jewish scribe Jesus ben Sirach of Jerusalem. The book was not accepted into the Hebrew Bible and as a result the original Hebrew text was not preserved in the Jewish canon. However, various original Hebrew versions have since been recovered.

There are numerous citations of Sirach in the Talmud and works of rabbinic literature (as "ספר בן סירא", e.g., Hagigah 13a). Despite not finding ultimate acceptance into the scriptural canon of Judaism, it was read as scripture by some Jews. For instance, it was included in the canon of the Jewish Septuagint, the 2nd century BC Greek version of the Jewish scriptures used by Diaspora Jews. Sirach is accepted as part of the Christian biblical canon by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and most Oriental Orthodox but not by most Protestants. The Greek Church Fathers also called it the "All-Virtuous Wisdom", while the Latin Church Fathers, beginning with Cyprian,[sup][2][/sup] termed it Ecclesiasticus because it was frequently read in churches, leading to the title liber ecclesiasticus (Latin and Latinised Greek for "church book").

Click to expand...

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Shalom, Saint.

Saint said:

Not sure what your looking for Roy but I'll try this...

PSALM 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool." (NKJV)

Here, David shows the Most High God's promise to David's Lord to grant him authority over his enemies. We know from Yeshua's own exposition of this passage that he equated himself with David's Lord (Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44).

Both Sirach 51:10 and Psalm 110:1 show that there was an ancient recognition of the fact that the Most High God had delegated authority over His portion, Israel (Deu. 32:9) to a subordinate, identified by Sirach as God's Son. Sirach's understanding is verified by the New Testament use of Psalm 110:1 to refer to the "only begotten Son" of God, Jesus Christ (Acts 2:34-36; Heb. 1:13).

The apostle Paul wrote something similar in his first epistle to the Corinthians:

I CORINTHIANS 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (NKJV)

In all these writings, we see that there are two "Gods" (Heb. 'elohim) over Israel. For Sirach, there was (1) the Lord, the Father of (2) his Lord. David records (1) the LORD speaking to (2) his Lord. Paul tells us of one (1) God and one (2) Lord. Each of these examples shows us that two entities were understood to be present.


What is the Sirach? From Wikipedia:


In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Click to expand...

Not quite. Thanks for the info, though. No, adoniy, like it's Greek counterpart, kurios, both CAN mean "lord," but they also can mean and are used in the Scriptures for "sir," "sire," "master," and "mister." So, I believe that Yeshua` was saying that David said, "YHVH said to my sire,..." who was the Messiah. "BUT, if the Messiah is supposed to be the SON of David, how can He be his SIRE?" THAT'S what shut the P'rushiym up! They had no way to solve that dilemma!

Who is Israel?

True Israel is christian believers that have become mature
Sons of God. In essence, they have accepted correction in
the wilderness of this life. They could be any ethnic group
including Jews and Israelites. God looked @ genetics in the
Old Covenant, but He looks @ character in the New.

If we continue to grow in grace and allow the Holy Spirit to
change us, we will be as Jacob who wrestled with the angel
and came to the realization that it was actually God. We too,
are wrestling with our angel in this life and if we come to that
same conclusion, God will choose us to rule and reign with
Him in the Tabernacles Age that is soon to begin.

In other words, God will change our name to Israel (God Rules),
because we became mature in our understanding of who we
are and who God is.

Logabe

Israel (God Rules),

Click to expand...

This may seem a detail, but 'Israel' is better translated 'God prevails'.

Some people are willing to be prevailed upon, and receive Him as their Saviour. Others refuse.

Shalom Retrobyter,

Here are a few verses for you to chew on, taken from the Sacred Name Bible (.com).

Genesis 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as ELOHIYM had commanded him: and YHVH shut him in.

Genesis 9:26 And he said, Blessed be YHVH ELOHIYM of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

23 Am I a ELOHIYM at hand, saith YHVH, and not a ELOHIYM afar off?


Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of YHVH come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; YAHSHUA of Nazareth, a man approved of YHVH among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which ELOHIYM did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of YHVH, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain, 24 Whom YHVH hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw YHVH always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Shalom, dragonfly and logabe.

Actually, "Yisra'el" doesn't mean either one. It means "A prince with God." It is spelled in Hebrew yod-sin-reish-alef-lamed. The root word is "S-R" and is pronounced "Sar" as in "Sar Shalom," meaning "Prince of Peace." The feminine of the root word adds a hei (our "h") at the end, and one gets "Sarah," meaning "princess."

Genesis 32:24-30
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
KJV

Genesis 35:9-15
9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padan-aram, and blessed him.
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
13 And God went up from him in the place where he talked with him.
14 And Jacob set up a pillar in the place where he talked with him, even a pillar of stone: and he poured a drink offering thereon, and he poured oil thereon.
15 And Jacob called the name of the place where God spake with him, Bethel.
KJV

So, someone has taught you both wrongly. Perhaps, that someone was trying to re-write history, like the humanists have been trying to do with the USA's history books for school, but whether or not that is true, you've been misled. Here's Strong's definition from the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary:

OT:3478 Yisraa'eel (yis-raw-ale'); from OT:8280 and OT:410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: -Israel.

OT:8280 saaraah (saw-raw'); a primitive root; to prevail:
KJV - have power (as a prince).

OT:410 'eel (ale); shortened from OT:352; strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):
KJV - God (god), goodly, great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

This is just basic Hebrew and Isra'eli history.

dragonfly, thank you for the verses, but you must understand that "ELOHIYM" is WHAT He is, but "YHVH" or "YHWH" (probably pronounced "YaHuWH" but possibly as either "YaHoWH" or "YaHWeH") is WHO He is. "ELOHIYM" literally means "gods", however, in the sense that there is only ONE God, it is the "royal plural" and the word, although plural, is treated as a singular noun in Hebrew text. "YHWH" is HIS NAME!

So, when you look at the verses you quoted in that light, the verses support that the One and Only God has the name "YHWH," and that He is OTHER THAN the "righteous Branch (Hebrew: Tsemach = 'Sprout')" of Jeremiah 23:5. And, in Acts 2:25, I would have put the following words in red because these were Yeshua`s words that David was prophesying that HE would say, thusly:

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw YHVH always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

So, the passage is NOT calling Yeshua` "YHVH" but rather is quoting David quoting Yeshua`! Understand?

Hi Retrobyter,

So, someone has taught you both wrongly.

Click to expand...

Well, first of all Strong's states that 'Israel' = God prevails.

And, I'm very aware that 'as a prince' is a similie. God is not saying Jacob is 'a prince'.

(I note there is no 'hei' in 'Israel', whereas both Abram and Sarai had one added to their names.)

Lastly on Israel, because I transferred 'God prevails' into my general understanding of His dealings with things, where 'God prevails', is applicable and 'a prince', is not, I asked the opinion of one who learned Hebrew from a Rabbi, and he agreed with Strong's. He wasn't basing his agreement on Strong's. He is not abaft to disagree with 'authorities'.

So, the passage is NOT calling Yeshua` "YHVH" but rather is quoting David quoting Yeshua`! Understand?

Click to expand...

Yes I do, although this is one statement which could also be an expression of David's own experiance, don't you think?

Back to Jeremiah 23:5, 6, or, Acts 2:21, both of which (two witnesses) state that the name of the Saviour is YHWH.


I suspect you don't dispute these, (and I don't), but most people don't realise that 'YHWH' is named in the New Testament.

dragonfly said:

Hi Retrobyter,



Well, first of all Strong's states that 'Israel' = God prevails.

And, I'm very aware that 'as a prince' is a similie. God is not saying Jacob is 'a prince'.

(I note there is no 'hei' in 'Israel', whereas both Abram and Sarai had one added to their names.)

Lastly on Israel, because I transferred 'God prevails' into my general understanding of His dealings with things, where 'God prevails', is applicable and 'a prince', is not, I asked the opinion of one who learned Hebrew from a Rabbi, and he agreed with Strong's. He wasn't basing his agreement on Strong's. He is not abaft to disagree with 'authorities'.



Yes I do, although this is one statement which could also be an expression of David's own experiance, don't you think?

Back to Jeremiah 23:5, 6, or, Acts 2:21, both of which (two witnesses) state that the name of the Saviour is YHWH.


I suspect you don't dispute these, (and I don't), but most people don't realise that 'YHWH' is named in the New Testament.

Click to expand...

Let's split a few hairs so everyone else who reads can judge for
themselves. Gen. 32:28 says,

28 And he said, “Your name shall no longer
be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven
with God and with men and have prevailed.”

Dr. Bullinger writes in his notes on Gen. 32:28 in The Companion
Bible,

“Israel = ‘God commands, orders, or rules'. Man attempts it, but always in the end,
fails. Out of some forty Hebrew names compounded with ‘El' or ‘Jah', God is always the
doer of what the verb means (cp. Dani-el, God judges).”

“prevailed = succeeded. He had contended for the birthright and succeeded
(25:29-34). He had contended for the blessing and succeeded (27). He had contended
with Laban and succeeded (31). He had contended with ‘men' and succeeded. Now he
contends with God—and fails. Hence his name was changed to Isra-el, God commands,
to teach him the greatly needed lesson of dependence upon God.”

As I said in the last post, like Jacob, we become Israelites by a
change in our character. We must all learn the same lesson that
Jacob learned. It is the lesson that we are not more powerful than
God. It is the lesson that we should have faith in the sovereignty of
God and not try to help Him fulfill His promises with a little help
from the flesh. God does not need us to lie or defraud others, for
whoever does these things is only a Jacobite and not an Israelite.

As Dr. Jones says, we see, then, that Jacob was not born an Israelite.
He became an Israelite later in life after learning a very important
lesson in the sovereignty of God. Hence, the term “Israel” was not a
matter of genealogy, but a testimony of character. It was only later
that Jacob-Israel's descendants were called “Israelites,” to denote that
they were physically descended from the man renamed Israel.

In essence, Jacob means deceiver, but God changed his character and
his name, after he recognized the sovereignty of God. As I said in the
last post, we have to wrestle with our angel for the purpose of God
choosing us to rule and reign with him in the Tabernacles Age. Many
are called, but few are chosen, because they never learn the lesson that
Jacob had to learn.

We have to qualify as a leader in order to be chosen by God to hold a
leadership position in the kingdom of God. That is what Paul was talking
about when he said that he presses towards the "HIGH CALLING" in
Christ Jesus in Philippians 3:14.

He had salvation, but he wanted the PRIZE of the Royal Priesthood that
God has been developing for the last 6,000 years. He wanted to learn
obedience by the things he suffered, so he would be counted worthy for
that prize. That is exactly what God is doing with us in our trials, seeing
if we want to be a part of the reconcilation of all things in the ages to
come as 2nd Corinthians 5:19 says.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:

Hi Retrobyter,



Well, first of all Strong's states that 'Israel' = God prevails.

And, I'm very aware that 'as a prince' is a similie. God is not saying Jacob is 'a prince'.

Click to expand...

I don't know WHAT you are reading, but it's not "The Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary" of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, copyrighted by James Strong, S.T.D., LL. D., in 1890 in Madison, NJ, which Dr. Strong labeled, "A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Hebrew Bible; With Their Renderings in the Authorized English Version"!

I'm looking right at a copy (34th printing in 1976, ISBN 0-687-40028-7), and that's NOT what the entry (which I copied above) for OT:3478 Yisraa'eel says! Even the PC Study Bible (version 5) which I will use has the same thing as what I read from the book! So, I'm calling your bluff: It is not true that "Strong's states that 'Israel' = God prevails"! That is a lie!

dragonfly said:

(I note there is no 'hei' in 'Israel', whereas both Abram and Sarai had one added to their names.)

Click to expand...

This is a non sequitur. It contributes nothing to this discussion. The 'hei,' the fifth letter of the Hebrew alefbet, was added to Sarah's name to change her from "Saray" or "Sharay," a "dominating," "hostile" wife, to a "Sarah" or "Sharah," a noble female, a "princess," and a "fortification!" Avraham's name change was different. His name is based on the Hebrew word "av," meaning "father." "Avram," his given name, was a comparative of "av," an "exalted father." "Avraham" is the superlative of "av," the "most exalted father!" That was the name given Him by God in Genesis 17:5 when God increased His progeny for Ishma'el's sake and confirmed the Abrahamic Covenant! (A "prince" in Bedouin terminology is a "sheik!")

dragonfly said:

Lastly on Israel, because I transferred 'God prevails' into my general understanding of His dealings with things, where 'God prevails', is applicable and 'a prince', is not, I asked the opinion of one who learned Hebrew from a Rabbi, and he agreed with Strong's. He wasn't basing his agreement on Strong's. He is not abaft to disagree with 'authorities'.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm glad to see that you consulted someone, but I am learning Hebrew every day and initially learned Hebrew from a "Sabra" (a native of Isra'el). Nor am I backward to disagree with authorities. One can look at the nouns and verbs in a dictionary all day, every day, but one doesn't truly learn a language unless one can learn its grammar and USE it in normal conversation with those who speak the language. If your rabbi-taught friend agreed with the interpretation that Isra'el means "God prevails," he didn't listen to his rabbi or his rabbi lied to him!

dragonfly said:

Yes I do, although this is one statement which could also be an expression of David's own experiance, don't you think?

Click to expand...

No, I don't think so. Did you ever go back to where David said these words?

Psalm 16:8-11
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
KJV

These are the words quoted in Acts 2:25-28 and are not David's word per se; they are the Messiah's words which David quotes in prophecy!

dragonfly said:

Back to Jeremiah 23:5, 6, or, Acts 2:21, both of which (two witnesses) state that the name of the Saviour is YHWH.


I suspect you don't dispute these, (and I don't), but most people don't realise that 'YHWH' is named in the New Testament.

Click to expand...

As I just showed you, these are two places in Scripture where it is NOT stated that the Name of God can be related to the Savior! So, if these are your "two witnesses," you'd better have more, or your case is going to fail in court!

Shalom Retrobyter,

I hope we can keep this discussion in a civil tone. I am as interested in accuracy as you are. :huh:

I'm looking right at a copy (34th printing in 1976, ISBN 0-687-40028-7), and that's NOT what the entry (which I copied above) for OT:3478 Yisraa'eel says! Even the PC Study Bible (version 5) which I will use has the same thing as what I read from the book! So, I'm calling your bluff: It is not true that "Strong's states that 'Israel' = God prevails"! That is a lie!

Click to expand...

Okay. You will have to go with your spiritual instinct I do with mine, without feeling responsible for other people's errors. All both of us can do, is state how we see things, and let the Lord find opportunity to make it relevant as we continue to study.

Here is the entry from Strong's definitions online at www.olivetree.com/bible/index_legacy_bible_search.php.

Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
03478 Yisra'el {yis-raw-ale'}
from 08280 and 0410;; n pr m
AV - Israel 2489, Israelites 16; 2505
Israel = "God prevails"
1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling
with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob
2a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
2b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of
the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as
Judah
2c) the name of the nation after the return from exile

The above is the substance of logabe's last post, in which he quoted from Bullinger.

You may wish to disagree with it. That's okay. We may both be victims of disinformation-misinformation. (This is why I consulted the other brother.) But let's not fall out over it?

As for Jeremiah 23, you have not addressed either of the verses in your posts - here they are again:

5 Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

[THE LORD (OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS) Heb Jehovahtsidkenu]

this page: http://sacrednamebible.com/B24C023.htm


Here it is in the Septuagint:

Jeremiah 23:5

2400 ιδού Behold, 2250 ημέραι days 2064 έρχονται come, 3004 λέγει says 2962 κύριος the lord, 2532 και and 450 αναστήσω I will raise up 3588 τω to * Δαυίδ David 395 ανατολήν [[sup]2[/sup]dawn 1342 δικαίαν [sup]1[/sup]a just]; 2532 και and 936 βασιλεύσει [[sup]2[/sup]shall reign 935 βασιλεύς [sup]1[/sup]a king], 2532 και and 4920 συνήσει shall perceive, 2532 και and 4160 ποιήσει shall execute 2917 κρίμα equity 2532 και and 1343 δικαιοσύνην righteousness 1909 επί upon 3588 της the 1093 γης earth.

Jeremiah 23:6

1722 εν In 3588 ταις 2250-1473 ημέραις αυτού his days 4982-* σωθήσεται Ιούδας Judah shall be delivered, 2532 και and * Ισραήλ Israel 2681 κατασκηνώσει shall encamp 3982 πεποιθώς complying. 2532 και And 3778 τούτο this 3588 το 3686-1473 όνομα αυτού is his name, 3739 ο which 2564 καλέσει [[sup]2[/sup]shall call 1473 αυτόν [sup]3[/sup]him 2962 κύριος [sup]1[/sup]the lord] -- * Ιωσεδέκ Josedek.

Note the use of 'kurios' in Jeremiah 23:5, 6, for YHWH (Jehovah) [I know there is a difference in the literal meaning of Yahweh, from Jehovah.] The fact of Christ being our Redeemer (purchaser) makes kurios ideal for the character in ssss, too.


And here's the verse in Acts 2 which I presented.

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be saved.

this page: http://sacrednamebible.com/B44C002.htm.


Acts 2:21

2532 και And 1510.8.3 έσται it shall be 3956 πας all 3739 ος who 302 αν ever 1941 επικαλέσηται should call upon 3588 το the 3686 όνομα name 2962 κυρίου of the Lord 4982 σωθήσεται shall be delivered.

Mickelson has this to say about G4982

sozo (sode'-zo) v.
1. to save, i.e. deliver or protect
{literally or figuratively}
[from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe")]
KJV: heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole

Isaiah 59:20
2532 και And 2240 ήξει [[sup]3[/sup]shall come 575 από [sup]4[/sup]from * Σιών [sup]5[/sup]Zion 3588 ο [sup]1[/sup]the one 4506 ρυόμενος [sup]2[/sup]rescuing], 2532 και and 654 αποστρέψει he shall turn 763 ασεβείας impiety 575 από from * Ιακώβ Jacob.

Romans 11:26

2532 και And 3779 ούτω so 3956 πας all * Ισραήλ Israel 4982 σωθήσεται shall be delivered, 2531 καθώς as 1125 γέγραπται it has been written, 2240 ήξει [[sup]3[/sup]shall come 1537 εκ [sup]4[/sup]from out of * Σιών [sup]5[/sup]Zion 3588 ο [sup]1[/sup]the one 4506 ρυόμενος [sup]2[/sup]rescuing], 2532 και and 654 αποστρέψει he shall turn 763 ασεβείας impious deeds 575 από from * Ιακώβ Jacob.

As I just showed you, these are two places in Scripture where it is NOT stated that the Name of God can be related to the Savior! So, if these are your "two witnesses," you'd better have more, or your case is going to fail in court!

Click to expand...

You may not 'see' it, but I do. God's names are His character. They are more than what He is, they are what He does. The association between the name Yahweh, and salvation (deliverance/rescue/escape) is implicit. Romans 3:21 - 26 covers all the same ground, (and more).

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Saint.



Thank you, Bob, for all that. THAT'S what I'm talking about!

I appreciate your input.

Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.



It's not a "silly, inconsequential point"; it's fundamental to this discussion! Besides, one can see that the Son of Man is human; therefore, He is of the progeny of Adam. However, can the same be said to be true for the Son of God? Is He indeed of the same substance as God the Father? or was He called the "Son of God" for another reason? What does it mean to be a "Son of God?"

Furthermore, I really don't care what you think I am here to do, but I'll say it plainly: I am here to learn; however, I will not pay attention to the rhetoric of trite statements and historical arguments which are the pat answers of the organized Catholic Church by which they appeased themselves as they FORCED others to comply with the status quo - THEIR take on the matter! We've been taught trinitarian beliefs ever since, and hardly anyone has a different viewpoint because WE DON'T HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINT! We don't even KNOW of an alternative (except the extremes of Jehovah's Witnesses)! Did you know that there are other beliefs, such as binitarian? I'm not saying that's necessarily what I believe, but why is the stance, "It's trinitarian or you're a heretic"?

In the late first and second centuries, they were having productive (although somewhat heated) discussions on the topic. Then, all of a sudden - who knows why - the Roman Catholic Church said, "This is the way it is. End of discussion," and no more discussion was allowed ... under pain of death! Why is that? Did somebody say something to the wrong person? Did someone get their toes stepped on? Only God knows the truth about this, but I believe that it is terribly closed-minded to shut down the discussion in an oligarchical way, and THAT makes that closed-mindedness "heretical!" It falls into the camp of the Nicolaitans!

So, when I hear one of you give the standard, pat answers without giving it much thought and conclude with "It's trinitarian or you're a heretic," I bristle with indignation! Shame on ANYONE who is not willing to discuss an issue!

Click to expand...

The Word BECAME flesh. God became flesh.

He was made a little lower than the angels. [temporarily]

Shalom, logabe.

logabe said:

Let's split a few hairs so everyone else who reads can judge for
themselves. Gen. 32:28 says,

28 And he said, “Your name shall no longer
be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven
with God and with men and have prevailed.”

Dr. Bullinger writes in his notes on Gen. 32:28 in The Companion
Bible,

“Israel = ‘God commands, orders, or rules'. Man attempts it, but always in the end,
fails. Out of some forty Hebrew names compounded with ‘El' or ‘Jah', God is always the
doer of what the verb means (cp. Dani-el, God judges).”

“prevailed = succeeded. He had contended for the birthright and succeeded
(25:29-34). He had contended for the blessing and succeeded (27). He had contended
with Laban and succeeded (31). He had contended with ‘men' and succeeded. Now he
contends with God—and fails. Hence his name was changed to Isra-el, God commands,
to teach him the greatly needed lesson of dependence upon God.”

Ah, so it was Dr. Bullinger who started that! You should listen more to Genesis 32:28 than to Bullinger's interpretation of Genesis 32:28. Dr. Bullinger is NOT RIGHT! He is not right about the name "Isra'el" nor is he right about Hebrew names compounded with El. He is assuming too much. Consider these names:
"Mahalal'Eel" (Mahalaleel) which means "praise of God" or
"Beeyt'Eel" (Bethel) which means "house of God" or
"Aviy'Eel" (Abiel) which means "father (possessor) of God" or
"Uw'Eel" (Uvel) which means "wish of God" or
"Uwriy'Eel" (Uriel) meaning "flame of God" or
"Ariy'Eel" (Ariel) meaning "lion of God!"
And that's just a handful of all the examples! See how he doesn't know what he's talking about?

logabe said:

As I said in the last post, like Jacob, we become Israelites by a

Click to expand...

logabe said:

change in our character. We must all learn the same lesson that
Jacob learned. It is the lesson that we are not more powerful than
God. It is the lesson that we should have faith in the sovereignty of
God and not try to help Him fulfill His promises with a little help
from the flesh. God does not need us to lie or defraud others, for
whoever does these things is only a Jacobite and not an Israelite.

As Dr. Jones says, we see, then, that Jacob was not born an Israelite.
He became an Israelite later in life after learning a very important
lesson in the sovereignty of God. Hence, the term “Israel” was not a
matter of genealogy, but a testimony of character. It was only later
that Jacob-Israel's descendants were called “Israelites,” to denote that
they were physically descended from the man renamed Israel.

Click to expand...

And, that's wrong, too! How can Isra'el be an Isra'eliy, one who belongs to Isra'el?! That makes NO sense at all! Somebody is fishing for truth but has absolutely no idea where to find it! We don't become Isra'eliym by character; we become Isra'eliym by BIRTH, specifically by SECOND BIRTH!

logabe said:

In essence, Jacob means deceiver, but God changed his character and

Click to expand...

logabe said:

his name, after he recognized the sovereignty of God. As I said in the
last post, we have to wrestle with our angel for the purpose of God
choosing us to rule and reign with him in the Tabernacles Age. Many
are called, but few are chosen, because they never learn the lesson that
Jacob had to learn.

We have to qualify as a leader in order to be chosen by God to hold a
leadership position in the kingdom of God. That is what Paul was talking
about when he said that he presses towards the "HIGH CALLING" in
Christ Jesus in Philippians 3:14.

Click to expand...

Wow. How many of these errors do we have to correct, anyway?! This is really a GLARING error! This "high calling" is a "calling upward" (Greek: anoo kleeseoos) and it refers to the judge of the game calling one up on the dais to receive his prize. It doesn't mention ANYTHING about a "leadership position in the kingdom of God!"

He had salvation, but he wanted the PRIZE of the Royal Priesthood that
God has been developing for the last 6,000 years. He wanted to learn
obedience by the things he suffered, so he would be counted worthy for
that prize. That is exactly what God is doing with us in our trials, seeing
if we want to be a part of the reconcilation of all things in the ages to
come as 2nd Corinthians 5:19 says.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Click to expand...

One should not neglect that there IS a genetic portion to God's people! They are, after all, His physical family! His mishpachah! He EXPECTS them to continue with genealogies to determine where they will be placed within His Kingdom! (Ezek. 40-48)

Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:

Shalom Retrobyter,

I hope we can keep this discussion in a civil tone. I am as interested in accuracy as you are. :huh:



Okay. You will have to go with your spiritual instinct I do with mine, without feeling responsible for other people's errors. All both of us can do, is state how we see things, and let the Lord find opportunity to make it relevant as we continue to study.

Here is the entry from Strong's definitions online at www.olivetree.com/bible/index_legacy_bible_search.php.

Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
03478 Yisra'el {yis-raw-ale'}
from 08280 and 0410;; n pr m
AV - Israel 2489, Israelites 16; 2505
Israel = "God prevails"
1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling
with the angel at Peniel
2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob
2a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
2b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of
the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as
Judah
2c) the name of the nation after the return from exile

The above is the substance of logabe's last post, in which he quoted from Bullinger.

You may wish to disagree with it. That's okay. We may both be victims of disinformation-misinformation. (This is why I consulted the other brother.) But let's not fall out over it?

As for Jeremiah 23, you have not addressed either of the verses in your posts - here they are again:

5 Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

[THE LORD (OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS) Heb Jehovahtsidkenu]

this page: http://sacrednamebible.com/B24C023.htm


Here it is in the Septuagint:

Jeremiah 23:5

2400 ιδού Behold, 2250 ημέραι days 2064 έρχονται come, 3004 λέγει says 2962 κύριος the lord, 2532 και and 450 αναστήσω I will raise up 3588 τω to * Δαυίδ David 395 ανατολήν [[sup]2[/sup]dawn 1342 δικαίαν [sup]1[/sup]a just]; 2532 και and 936 βασιλεύσει [[sup]2[/sup]shall reign 935 βασιλεύς [sup]1[/sup]a king], 2532 και and 4920 συνήσει shall perceive, 2532 και and 4160 ποιήσει shall execute 2917 κρίμα equity 2532 και and 1343 δικαιοσύνην righteousness 1909 επί upon 3588 της the 1093 γης earth.

Jeremiah 23:6

1722 εν In 3588 ταις 2250-1473 ημέραις αυτού his days 4982-* σωθήσεται Ιούδας Judah shall be delivered, 2532 και and * Ισραήλ Israel 2681 κατασκηνώσει shall encamp 3982 πεποιθώς complying. 2532 και And 3778 τούτο this 3588 το 3686-1473 όνομα αυτού is his name, 3739 ο which 2564 καλέσει [[sup]2[/sup]shall call 1473 αυτόν [sup]3[/sup]him 2962 κύριος [sup]1[/sup]the lord] -- * Ιωσεδέκ Josedek.

Note the use of 'kurios' in Jeremiah 23:5, 6, for YHWH (Jehovah) [I know there is a difference in the literal meaning of Yahweh, from Jehovah.] The fact of Christ being our Redeemer (purchaser) makes kurios ideal for the character in ssss, too.


And here's the verse in Acts 2 which I presented.

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be saved.

this page: http://sacrednamebible.com/B44C002.htm.


Acts 2:21

2532 και And 1510.8.3 έσται it shall be 3956 πας all 3739 ος who 302 αν ever 1941 επικαλέσηται should call upon 3588 το the 3686 όνομα name 2962 κυρίου of the Lord 4982 σωθήσεται shall be delivered.

Mickelson has this to say about G4982

sozo (sode'-zo) v.
1. to save, i.e. deliver or protect
{literally or figuratively}
[from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe")]
KJV: heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole

Isaiah 59:20
2532 και And 2240 ήξει [[sup]3[/sup]shall come 575 από [sup]4[/sup]from * Σιών [sup]5[/sup]Zion 3588 ο [sup]1[/sup]the one 4506 ρυόμενος [sup]2[/sup]rescuing], 2532 και and 654 αποστρέψει he shall turn 763 ασεβείας impiety 575 από from * Ιακώβ Jacob.

Romans 11:26

2532 και And 3779 ούτω so 3956 πας all * Ισραήλ Israel 4982 σωθήσεται shall be delivered, 2531 καθώς as 1125 γέγραπται it has been written, 2240 ήξει [[sup]3[/sup]shall come 1537 εκ [sup]4[/sup]from out of * Σιών [sup]5[/sup]Zion 3588 ο [sup]1[/sup]the one 4506 ρυόμενος [sup]2[/sup]rescuing], 2532 και and 654 αποστρέψει he shall turn 763 ασεβείας impious deeds 575 από from * Ιακώβ Jacob.



You may not 'see' it, but I do. God's names are His character. They are more than what He is, they are what He does. The association between the name Yahweh, and salvation (deliverance/rescue/escape) is implicit. Romans 3:21 - 26 covers all the same ground, (and more).

Click to expand...

Oh, NO! You will have NOTHING but civility from me! By no means would I have a "falling out" with a brother or sister in the Lord on account of something so common as a simple error! Although I'll "call a spade a spade," and name a lie when I detect it, I WON'T go so far as assign the label "liar" to the person! I may be abrasive in some ways, but I try NEVER to assign guilt to a person unless they first assign guilt to himself or herself OR it is proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that he or she PURPOSELY ORIGINATED the lie! I always try to attack the problem and not the person.

Besides, I BELIEVE in Hanlon's razor (augmented as Heinlein's razor): "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice."

There are some on this board who would go so far as to question a person's "salvation" if a simple lie was detected, but I won't! If he or she claims to be a brother or sister in the Messiah, who am I to say otherwise?! That's between that person who claims to be a brother or sister and God! I believe that it is a dangerous thing to question a person's "salvation" (or personal justification by God) because one of God's commandments is...

Leviticus 19:18
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
KJV

and we have this warning,...

1 Thessalonians 4:1-9
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
KJV

So, it is EXTREMELY UNWISE to question a person's justification by God!

Now, on a practical note, I find it highly suspect to go on my "spiritual instincts." If I don't stick to Scripture, I cannot be sure of my "spiritual instincts," and I don't believe ANYONE can! At best, if it's only been a short while since he or she immersed himself or herself in the Scriptures, he or she MIGHT be able to avoid sliding downhill into grave error for a while. At worst, a person - being human - will IMMEDIATELY make the downward slide!

No, I don't go looking for anyone else's errors; I have enough of my own to deal with!

What I now believe is that whatever study help you were looking at was USING STRONG'S NUMBERS for its own definitions/lexicon but had adapted those definitions independent of Strong's Concordance or its dictionaries. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and its dictionaries ARE very powerful and thorough study helps from which others may draw. So, like the PC Study Bible has incorporated the dictionaries within its tools, it is highly likely that other study helps have incorporated at least part of its dictionaries into its own work. However, in doing so, it should not misrepresent the fact that they are NOT truly using Strong's dictionaries.

One should not neglect that there IS a genetic portion to God's people!

Click to expand...

They could be any ethnic group including Jews and Israelites. God
looked @ genetics in the Old Covenant, but He looks @ character in the
New.

Let me explain... Luke 12:42-44,


42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and
sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge
of his servants, to give them their rations at the
proper time ?
43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds
so doing when he comes.
44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge
of all his possessions.

Where is genetics in these verses? Jesus was speaking of one's character
when He speaks of being faithful and sensible. When He comes back with
His rewards or prize, He will be looking for faith, with feet, in order for us to
qualify to rule in His kingdom. If our goal is to be an overcomer, we must
learn how to rule in God's kingdom. Another couple of scriptures to look @
is Luke 19:17-19,

17 "And he said to him, 'Well done, good slave,
because you have been faithful in a very little
thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.'
19 "And he said to him also, 'And you are to be
over five cities.'

There it is again... because they have been faithful, God will make them king.
Not because of their genetics, but because they were obedient and faithful til
the end of the age or their life.

God's plan is to call out a people for the purpose of leadership in His kingdom.
He has been doing that for the last 6000 years. When He comes a second time,
it will be to place these Overcomers in authority over cities (people), to teach
them the ways of the Lord (Isa. 2:3).

As Overcomers... whether Jew, Israelite, or Greek, we should be learning and
practicing His ways through faith until He comes. It is for whosoever will, let
him come and enjoy the blessings in this life and also the life to come. Rev. 20:
6 says,

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the
first resurrection ; over these the second death has
no power, but they will be priests of God and of
Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

In order to qualify for the 1st Resurrection, your character must be changed in
the Image and likeness of God by the Holy Spirit. You might be a Jew, but if
your character isn't changed in His likeness, you will not qualify to rule and reign
over any cities (Luke 12:45).

What a God! What a Plan!



Logabe

In order to qualify for the 1st Resurrection, your character must be changed in
the Image and likeness of God by the Holy Spirit. You might be a Jew, but if
your character isn't changed in His likeness, you will not qualify to rule and reign
over any cities (Luke 12:45).

Click to expand...

Logabe, let me ask you this; in your opinion when is ones character changed into the likeness and Image of God? Is it upon receiving the Spirit (understandable mind of Yeshua) or upon some degree of spiritual maturity?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Saint said:

Logabe, let me ask you this; in your opinion when is ones character changed into the likeness and Image of God? Is it upon receiving the Spirit (understandable mind of Yeshua) or upon some degree of spiritual maturity?

Click to expand...

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Click to expand...

Bob, that is a very good question. None of us are perfect, but we can become mature.
Does that mean we will never fail again. I don't think so, but as you grow in grace you
will handle your failures differently. The key to being an Overcomer is not some super
spiritual warrior, but it is someone who has learned to forgive God and his enemy alike.

Most people never really learn this lesson of God's sovereignty and wisdom. You can
see it in their reactions to men, their devastation the face of false accusation or
persecution. The circumstances of life fluster them. Their emotions are like a roller
coaster, feeling good when others praise them, and feeling depressed when men speak
ill of them.

Don't waste a bad experience. Don't waste a good chunk of dung. Thank God for it and
bury it in the ground beside you, praying to know God's purpose in this and how you
may use it to bear fruit that is pleasing to Him. Learn to forgive. Learn to remit sin. If we
always keep the dung in its proper place, knowing and trusting that God will work all things
out for our good, then we will know the meaning of true Faith and Rest in Him. That's is His
likeness and His image and it takes time to mature and maintain until He comes.

So to answer your question, the secret is learning how to be a Forgiver.


Logabe

Shalom Retrobyter,

Thanks for your 'civil' reply to me. I would like to add a further comment.

Perhaps I was concerned about your mood, or attitude, because of the capitals you use in your post. I, too, like capitals very much. They're a quick and easy way to add emphasis. But - and it's an important but - a great many folk who write on forums perceive a word in capitals as one which has been shouted, rather than one which has been emphasised in a calm and friendly manner. More than one word in capitals in a post, and they feel gradually more intimidated, even though it is not in the poster's mind to intimidate or to create that impression. Therefore, if I may, gently suggest the alternative (which is what I have to do if I've used capitals so that I don't lose my train of thought and flow of writing)? It is to go back and quickly change the words to lower case, hightlight, and use Ctrl+I or Ctrl+U or Ctrl+B to achieve the emphases without the perceived loudness. If you mean to shout, of course, use capitals. It may seem like an irritating convention, but it's become established over time, and most people observe it. (I hope you don't mind my mentioning this. If you do, please think about it anyway. Thanks.)

The other comment I have is from your post to logabe, regarding his quotation of Bullinger, of which I've extracted one sentence:

'Out of some forty Hebrew names compounded with ‘El' or ‘Jah', God is always the doer of what the verb means (cp. Dani-el, God judges).” '

Please look at the examples you gave, again? I think the only one which could be a verb, is the first one (praise) and maybe you could reconsider your comment in that light? Also, if you look carefully at the other quote, the writer agrees with you. He was writing for people who are hazy about Jacob's place in the geneology, and leading them in to an understanding of what it is to have one's name changed because of a real relationship with God rather than an inherited association with it. This is the age-old problem faced by prophets and preachers alike - to get the descendants of the people who knew God, to understand that they were not born 'Israel', or, they were not born 'Christian'. In both cases there is a need for spiritual new beginning of one's own, establishing one's own right to the name.


Blessings, brother. It's good sharing with you.

Hi again Logabe…I ask because it is something I was thinking about just the other day. I kind of rationalized it like this; when we are first saved we are still primarily living in the flesh but we now have the capacity to understand and learn but our heart (mind) is like a child. Our walk then, providing we put forth the effort will bring us to a point (upon death) of totally living in the spirit having fully mortified the flesh. Because of this timeline there will arrive a time when we have broken over (past the 50% mark) and we are then suddenly living more in the spirit than the flesh. It seems at that point we truly moving towards the likeness and Image of Yeshua. This perhaps is a poor analogy but this was the picture in my mind as I was asking questions of the LORD. I’m sure there will be those who strongly disagree with what I’ve said

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob