My studies -Daniel 11

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shilohsfoal

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Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Well, considering that His body is called the VEIL in the Temple (Heb. 10:20), that's a partial truth.

What good is an analogy if you take away the basic truth upon which the analogy is built? The point Yeshua` was making was that HE was the presence of God, not just a building. That's true. However, to ignore both the prophecies that predict a rebuilt Temple and the teaching of what the Temple represented is to miss a good deal of the truth of God's Word. IF YOU TAKE AWAY THE BASIS FOR THE ANALOGY, YOU TAKE AWAY THE MEANING OF THE ANALOGY!!!

In the words of Alice's Mad Hatter, "Please! Don't let us be silly!"

NOWHERE did Yeshua` claim to take the place of the Temple! HE PURGED THE TEMPLE! He had a ZEAL for the Temple, the House of God!

It's like how the P'rushiym (Pharisees) were looking for the Kingdom's arrival when Yeshua` was standing right there in the middle of them! He wasn't saying that there would be no physical, literal Kingdom; He was saying that He was the EMBODIMENT of the Kingdom because He was supposed to be their KING!

In the same way, Yeshua` was not saying that there would be no physical, literal Temple rebuilt; He was saying that He was the EMBODIMENT of the Temple because He was supposed to be their Great High Priest "forever after the order of Melchiy-Tsedeq!" (Which the author of Hebrews points out means "King of Righteousness!")

Isaiah 62:1-7
1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.
2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.
3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,
7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
KJV


Please, pray for the peace of Jerusalem!

Ps 122
122 I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the Lord.
2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the Lord.
5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
9 Because of the house of the Lord our God I will seek thy good.
KJV

I just told you who is that false prophet is and you still cant even get over your temple being built.
..
You can not understands Daniel 11 at all because you havnt learned what the holy covenant is.
You believe it has to do with killing sheep and cattle.
.
You have such a carnal mind.Well it wouldnt do any good to try to teach you what the holy covenant is if that covenant doesnt include you.If God choses you then you can possibly understand what the holy covenant is and in turn learn what the sacrifice is and understand Daniel 11.
Untill then Id say your just out of luck.
 

veteran

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And yet you ignore the fact that Scripture tells us we do not become incorruptible until the last trumpet.

That sure was a quick change of subject to Scripture that was not yet part of the discussion. You are very quick to leave the subject we've been discussing.

And further, you bear false witness, because I have never... said the saints still alive on earth are not 'changed' on Paul's "last trump"; instead I have affirmed it MANY TIMES on this forum.

You bearing false witness against me on that clearly reveals 'another spirit' has a hold on you!


In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Are the Scriptures wrong? Are we already incorruptible? Or could it be that you are mistaken and that believers can be corrupted? If not then how do you explain the multitude of different doctrines that Believers have? Why do some believers do as you did (in the mark of the beast thread) and twist Scripture by claiming it said the beast of Rev17 is called Babylon? When in reality as Scripture tells us it is the whore that rides the beasts back that is called Babylon, not the beast. Is it because you have allowed the doctrines of men to corrupt your thinking? Sure it is, WE (myself included) all fall short at times. If the man of sin only shows himself he is God and not the world then he would have a hard time convincing the world he is God. besides even if the Jews do rebuild the temple, (and they may) it will still be desolate. Christ declared their building desolate, rebuilding it won't cure that. Do you really believe the temple of God is a building that Christ declared desolate?
As you are led friend, as you are led!

You are of a false spirit, because what you've tried to do, is to make up LIES against me by claiming I said something I never did!

---------------------
For my brethren in Christ Jesus who want to know my stance on 1 Cor.15 of Paul's "last trump"...

The 1 Cor.15 "last trump" change "at the twinkling of an eye" is when those in Christ still alive on earth are changed when our Lord Jesus appears at His second coming after... the tribulation. Our Lord Jesus ends... the tribulation upon His Church still on earth at that moment, which is the "day of the Lord" timing, His coming "as a thief". That is when we will be changed to incorruptible type bodies and then gathered to our Lord Jesus. It is also... the time of His wrath upon the wicked on earth. And it is also the start of His Millennial reign on earth with His elect priests and kings (Rev.20 timing).

If the man of sin only shows himself he is God and not the world then he would have a hard time convincing the world he is God.

Only reason I'm still even talking to you is per chance you might be only deceived, and not willingly working against The Father and The Son.

The phrase "shewing himself that he is God" is about the false one showing himself... to the world... that he is God. Good thing we don't have to rely just on Paul's example of that idea, for Christ covered that very idea also in Matt.24 and Mark 13, as did Daniel with the "vile person" and "little horn" examples, and Christ did again in Rev.13:11 about that "another beast" appearing with two horns LIKE a lamb (as Christ), but speaking as a dragon (devil).

And yet, Paul actually nailed... the idea in the 2 Corinthians 11 Scripture about the "another Jesus"...

2 Cor 11:4
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)

2 Cor 11:14
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
(KJV)

The Greek word for "transformed" can also mean 'disguised'.


Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(KJV)

You were already shown that above Scripture in Rev.13 I'm sure; you just were not paying attention.


Ridgerunner said:
besides even if the Jews do rebuild the temple, (and they may) it will still be desolate. Christ declared their building desolate, rebuilding it won't cure that. Do you really believe the temple of God is a building that Christ declared desolate?


What about Ezekiel's temple sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 forward? Even many of the Pre-trib Rapture Churches today understand about that future sanctuary Christ is to rule from with His elect kings and priests during the future "thousand years" of Rev.20.

So if that Ezekiel's temple sanctuary is to be setup at Jerusalem specifically for Christ's future thousand years reign, then how do we know the temple the unbelieving Jews plan to builid today won't be it?


The following Scripture is a direct time reference... to the Ezekiel temple of Ezek.40 forward, for after Christ has returned and gathered His elect:

Rev 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(KJV)

How did you miss that Christ's elect servants will serve Him day and night IN HIS TEMPLE after His return and our gathering to Him? (Rev.21:22 declares no more temple, which is a time beyond this. Christ Jesus will reign from His Temple over all nations during His Millennial reign with His elect, which is what the Ezek.40 forward Scripture is about. And after the thousand years, when the wicked and Satan and hell are all finally destroyed, there will be no further need for that temple.)

We are not... to be deceived by the orthodox Jews building another temple in our times, and their proclaiming of the false one coming to sit in it, with their being fooled into thinking that false one is Messiah (Christ). Their rebuilt temple will be... a desolation, part of the "abomination of desolation" event involving idol worship.

But what about Christian brethren today that are NOT expecting a false messiah to come first?!? If that fake messiah the orthodox Jews will accept as Messiah has no miraculous works to prove it, even they... would not believe the lie. Yet our Lord Jesus strongly warned us, that if it were possible, the false one coming first will work signs and wonders that would deceive even His own elect (Matt.24). That's why Jesus forewarned when the deceived come up to you and say something like, "Christ is here!", to not believe it. Why? Because they will be fooled by that coming false one, thinking he truly is Christ.

That's what would happen with "another Jesus" appearing in Jerusalem with power to work great wonders and miracles in the sight of men; people would think only God could do that, and think that must be The True Christ! But that first one coming to work supernatural miracles on earth will not be our Lord Jesus Christ. Those in Christ Jesus are to know and understand that.
 
Shalom, Ridgerunner.



A relatively simple misunderstanding can sometimes be missed by the person who misunderstands as well as those who are trying to argue a different point. You have just such a misunderstanding when you said, "Christ declared the building desolate." That's NOT what He declared desolate! Read it again carefully:

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV


Okay, so what is "your house?" Is it the Temple? Here's the Greek of the same passage:

To Kata Matthaion `Agion Euaggelion (The Holy [Thrilling] Good-News According-to Matthaios or Matthew) 23:37-39
37 Ierousaleem Ierousaleem, hee apokteinousa tous profeetas kai lithobolousa tous apestalmenous pros auteen, posakis eetheleesa episunagagein ta tekna sou, hon tropon ornis episunagei ta nossia autees hupo tas pterugas, kai ouk eetheleesate!
38 Idou afietai humin ho oikos humoon ereemos.
39 Legoo gar humin, ou mee me ideete ap’ arti heoos an eipeete, “Eulogeemenos ho erchomenos en onomati Kurios.”
Interlinear Bible of PC Study Bible v.5

37 Ierousaleem = 37 Yerushalaim (Jerusalem)
Ierousaleem, = Yerushalaim, (Jerusalem,)
hee = the
apokteinousa = killers
tous = of-the
profeetas = prophets
kai = and
lithobolousa = stoners
tous = of-the
apestalmenous = ambassadors
pros = unto
auteen, = thee, (you [singular],)
posakis = how-many-times
eetheleesa = I’d-have-chosen
episunagagein = to-gather-together
ta = the
tekna = children
sou, = of-thee; thy, (of-you; your [singular],)
hon = in-that
tropon = way/style
ornis = a-bird
episunagei = gathers-together
ta = the
nossia = chicks
autees = of-it; its
hupo = under
tas = the
pterugas, = wings,
kai = and
ouk = no
eetheleesate! = thou-choseth; you-chose (singular)!
38 Idou = 38 Behold; Look!
afietai = is-sent-forth
humin = with-you (plural)
ho = the
oikos = house/household
humoon = of-you; your (plural)
ereemos. = lonesome/waste.
39 Legoo = 39 I-say
gar = for
humin, = to-you [plural],
ou = no
mee = not-at-all
me = me
ideete = you-see (plural, 2nd aorist, subjunctive mood)
ap’ (apo) = off; away-from
arti = just-now
heoos = until
an’ (ana) = up; at
eipeete, = you-say (plural, 2nd aorist, subjunctive mood),
“Eulogeemenos = “Welcome
ho = the
erchomenos = Comer; One-coming
en = in/on
onomati = name/authority
Kurios.” = of-LORD.”; of-ADONAI.”

Therefore, although the Greek word "oikos" can mean either a literal "house" or an abstract "household," the latter is the better choice because it, WITH THEM, is being SENT AWAY lonesome and a waste, "desolate!"

Thus, it is that "their houseHOLD is being sent away desolate!"
Have you ever considered that the reason Christ said “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate” is because He no longer considered it His house, the temple of God, and was leaving it with those who had rejected Him. Didn’t Christ bring us a New Covenant?
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Wouldn’t any future rebuilt temple be desolate by God’s own design?
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Rebuilding the temple would still leave it nothing more then a desolate shell. A hollow shell representing the old which “decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away”.



No one is bearing false witness against you or saying you said something you did not say. So quit with your baseless accusations because you let your emotions dictate your responses. Allow me to explain the reason why I introduced the verses 1Cor15:52-53 into the conversation seeing as how you have chosen not to use your critical thinking skill and instead have allowed emotion to dictate your responses as a result of being unable to defend the doctrine you espouse.
In post #14 of this thread you said that;
And all... those who don't bring forth good fruit in Christ Jesus are cut off... from His spiriutal temple, so those could never be included.


While your statement in another post that the cornerstone of the temple (Christ) cannot be corrupted is true, we must rember that a significant part of the temple of God is “lively stones” (believers) as a result whether we like it or not we must recognize that we all fall short and are corruptible. Just as 1Cor15:52-53 proves by showing that we don’t put on incorruptibility until the last trump. Like it or not the temple of God has become corrupted! If not then there would not be a multitude of different doctrines and denominations. It isn'tour doctrine are denomination that saves us but our faith in Christ. Many who have strong faith (I believe you and I both fall into this category) have doctrines that are in error (once again we all fall short, I doubt if either of us have perfect doctrine in all subjects) and as a result theire is corruption within the temple.A fact that had you used critical thinking skills you would have recognized if you had answered the questions I asked. But as we can all see once again you chose to become emotional because your doctrine has been shown to be in error and as a result have let your emotions dictate your response, regardless of the validity of that response. So the reality is that you are bearing false witness by accusing me of saying you said something you didn’t, even though I never accused you saying what you say I supposedly accused you of saying! Your false accusation is forgiven!

Only reason I'm still even talking to you is per chance you might be only deceived, and not willingly working against The Father and The Son

I think we all recognize that the reason you are still talking to me is that you are bent on defending your doctrine at any costs. I realize you are upset because the doctrine you espouse has been brought into question, but it really isn't about defending our doctrine but seeking and promoting truth.
So let’s do a little recap here and try to start fresh. This time maybe you can actually address the points I make with Scriptural proof instead of doctrinally based arguments that have been built in the absence of sound hermeneutics. When it comes to antichrist or antichrists I believe that antichrist is a spirit or individual that denies Christ/God and there are many that have existed since John wrote the only 4 verses that use the terms antichrist or antichrists. I don’t believe that in 1 John2:18 when he said “as ye have heard antichrist shall come” he was referring to an individual singular future antichrist. My reasoning is based on Scripture because in 1John4:3 (the same Epistle1John2:18 is in) he also told us “this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard should come; and even now already is it in the world”. So let’s look at those verses and see if what I believe is supported by Scripture.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

On the other hand you believe that not only are there many antichrists but that 1John2:18 proves there is an an individual singular antichrist that comes in the end as a false Christ. As I have shown that belief is in error John told us in 1John4:3 when he said “this is that spirit of antcihrist, whereof ye have heard that should come; and even now already is it in the world” John only spoke of one antichrist that should come not two so clearly he was correcting a misconception about antichrists and explaining that antichrists are many not singular and they were already there when he wrote the verses.

You have also stated that this future antichrist is a false Christ claiming to be Christ. But as criticlal thinking shows you have created an oxymoron. Per Scripture antichrist is one that denies Christ yet your false Christ is supposedly claiming to be something he denies. How can that be? How can one be claiming to be something he denies exists?

I believe that per the inspired word of God a beast is a kingdom and can back that up with a verse that actually tells us a beast is a kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
So not only do we have the inspired word of God that tells us beasts are kingdoms we also have history that proves God’s word true. While you on the other hand you have claimed that a beast is the antichrist. Yet you have no Scripture that says a beast is the antichrist. In addition you even went so far as to claim that (see post57 in the Mark of the beast thread):
And lo, our Lord Jesus even uses... the title of Babylon once again for the final world beast kingdom of Revelation 17-18.

Let’s look at those verses and see if Jesus said the beast is Babylon or if this is nothing more then you twisting Scripture and perverting the truth of God’s word in a poor attempt to defend the doctrine you espouse!
Rev 17:3-5 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I
saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of
blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed
in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and
pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

As we can all see that Babylom is the woman(the whore) that rides on the back of the beast. Jesus did not use the title of Babylon for the final world beast!!

Let's clear up these differences before continuing to some of your other miscoceptions about the temple, millenium etc..... Trying to discuss multiple subjects in the same posts will only create confusion.

"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.

Isn’t it time you started using critical thinking skills to seek out the truth rather then letting emotion dictate your response because you insist on defending a doctrine that has been proven to be in error? The choice is yours accept the truth or continue trying to defend your doctrine no matter what it takes. But as we can all see defending your doctrine is hurting your credibility and showing the depths you will sink, to do so!

As you are led friend, as you are led!!!!
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Ridgerunner.

Have you ever considered that the reason Christ said “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate” is because He no longer considered it His house, the
temple of God, and was leaving it with those who had rejected Him. Didn’t Christ bring us a New Covenant?
Heb
8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


That SOUNDS good, except for "dangling details." First, we have Scripture about a future Temple that has NEVER been fulfilled that must be fulfilled. Read Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 and see just how thoroughly the predictions are laid out for a future Temple. This CANNOT be referring to some "spiritual house" because of all the intricate details in MEASUREMENT! IT HAS TO BE PHYSICAL!
Second, the MESSIAH (the "Christ") did NOT bring US a New Covenant. The New Covenant was made with Isra'el, same as the Old Covenant.

Jer 31:23-34
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The Lord bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.
24 And there shall dwell in
Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.
25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of
Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
KJV


Furthermore, one must understand that the New Covenant does NOT REPLACE the Old. It IS the Old Covenant (my Law) merely put within their hearts!
Notice Yeshua`s own words on the subject:

John 13:33-35
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
KJV


And how Yochanan words it after Him:

1 John 2:7-8
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
KJV


2 John 5-6
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
KJV


Doesn’t the Torah (God’s Law) already say the following?


Leviticus 19:9-18
9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
KJV

It’s not a “brand new” commandment; therefore, it’s not a “brand new” covenant! It’s the OLD LAW of God through Moshe (Moses) with a more potent “delivery package!”

Wouldn’t any future rebuilt temple be desolate by God’s own design?
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Rebuilding the temple would still leave it nothing more then a desolate shell. A hollow shell representing the old which “decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away”.


Well, let’s think about this for a moment.

IF God’s Word is true and God is not a liar, and…
IF Yechezk’el’s (Ezekiel’s) prophecy is within that body of God’s Word, and…
IF Yechezk’el’s prophecy about the Temple has never been completely fulfilled, and…
IF God has said that NONE of His Word would fall to the ground, and…
IF Yechezk’el’s prophecy predicted a future Temple with measurements and details so precise as to instruct present-day Jews how to construct such a Temple, …
THEN there WILL BE a future Temple as Yechezk’el described it under inspiration!

God does not change! God does not renig on His promises! God has NEVER rescinded His Law or His Covenant with Isra’el! (This is NOT mere theology proper; there are Scriptures that prove each one of these statements.)

So, the next point is this: Would such a “future rebuilt Temple be desolate by God’s own design?” Does God do or say anything without design? Would God contradict Himself? Would God undo His own Word?! The answers should be obvious: NO.

Look carefully at Yeshua`s words about leaving them desolate:

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV


And consider the verse in Dani’el from which He derives the “your house is left unto you desolate” phrase:

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

This desolation is NOT a permanent condition! Therefore, whether Matthew 23:38 refers to the temple or not, the answer to your question in this section is “NO!” By God’s design, He WILL have another Temple! The purposes to you may be unclear, but the logic is there. It’s NOT just a symbol for “salvation” or some relic of the past. There were CONCRETE, PHYSICAL purposes for a Temple, as well. Not all sacrifices were about one’s standing with God, either, and you assume too much if you think that’s all the Temple is about.

No one is bearing false witness against you or saying you said something you did not say. So quit with your baseless accusations because you let your emotions dictate your responses. Allow me to explain the reason why I introduced the verses 1 Cor. 15:52-53 into the conversation seeing as how you have chosen not to use your critical thinking skill and instead have allowed emotion to dictate your responses as a result of being unable to defend the doctrine you espouse.


First, we’re off track here. I take nothing you’ve said against myself. We’re (hopefully) dealing with the issues and not with personalities. Hopefully, I’ve said nothing as a “baseless accusation” against you; if something I’ve said you have interpreted that way, then please forgive me. It was unintentional, and I take it back! Might you be confusing me with someone else?

In post #14 of this thread you said that;

While your statement in another post that the cornerstone of the temple (Christ) cannot be corrupted is true, we must remember that a significant part of the temple of God is “lively stones” (believers) as a result whether we like it or not we must recognize that we all fall short and are corruptible. Just as 1 Cor. 15:52-53 proves by showing that we don’t put on incorruptibility until the last trump. Like it or not the
temple of God has become corrupted! If not then there would not be a multitude of different doctrines and denominations. It isn'tour doctrine are denomination that saves us but our faith in Christ. Many who have strong faith (I believe you and I both fall into this category) have doctrines that are in error (once again we all fall short, I doubt if either of us have perfect doctrine in all subjects) and as a result theire is corruption within the temple.A fact that had you used critical thinking skills you would have recognized if you had answered the questions I asked. But as we can all see once again you chose to become emotional because your doctrine has been shown to be in error and as a result have let your emotions dictate your response, regardless of the validity of that response. So the reality is that you are bearing false witness by accusing me of saying you said something you didn’t, even though I never accused you saying what you say I supposedly accused you of saying! Your false accusation is forgiven!


Sorry, but I’m not the author of post #14. That was “veteran.” I’m not even mentioned or quoted in that post. I was post #12 around that time, directed to respond to your statements. I didn’t post again until post #17 and that post was directed to “shilohsfoal.”

Personally, I disagree that the “building” into which we are all “lively stones” is the “temple” at all. Not literally or by representation. It is simply an analogy by metaphor, showing how we all work together into the framing of a people for God founded on the apostles and the prophets and capped by the finished work of God’s Son. He is the “corner stone” or the “CAP stone” of the building (thus describing a pyramid, not the Temple).

I’m going to stop there for now. In the rest of your post, I don’t know if you’re truly talking to me or to veteran.


Have a blessed Shabbat!
 
Shalom, Ridgerunner.



That SOUNDS good, except for "dangling details." First, we have Scripture about a future Temple that has NEVER been fulfilled that must be fulfilled. Read Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 and see just how thoroughly the predictions are laid out for a future Temple. This CANNOT be referring to some "spiritual house" because of all the intricate details in MEASUREMENT! IT HAS TO BE PHYSICAL!
Second, the MESSIAH (the "Christ") did NOT bring US a New Covenant. The New Covenant was made with Isra'el, same as the Old Covenant.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, [neither] they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

So do you beliueve a man made temple will exist forever? Besides we have assurance that God does not dwell in temples made with hands:
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
So this verse is in error?
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

You are certainly entitled to believe in a rebuilt temple if you choose, but I see nothing in Scripture that shows a need or a reason for the temple to be restored.


First, we’re off track here. I take nothing you’ve said against myself. We’re (hopefully) dealing with the issues and not with personalities. Hopefully, I’ve said nothing as a “baseless accusation” against you; if something I’ve said you have interpreted that way, then please forgive me. It was unintentional, and I take it back! Might you be confusing me with someone else?
Sorry, but I’m not the author of post #14. That was “veteran.” I’m not even mentioned or quoted in that post. I was post #12 around that time, directed to respond to your statements. I didn’t post again until post #17 and that post was directed to “shilohsfoal.”

Personally, I disagree that the “building” into which we are all “lively stones” is the “temple” at all. Not literally or by representation. It is simply an analogy by metaphor, showing how we all work together into the framing of a people for God founded on the apostles and the prophets and capped by the finished work of God’s Son. He is the “corner stone” or the “CAP stone” of the building (thus describing a pyramid, not the Temple).

I’m going to stop there for now. In the rest of your post, I don’t know if you’re truly talking to me or to veteran.


Have a blessed Shabbat!

LOL might I suggest you go back and reread my post. If you reply to 2 people in a row this forum places both replies in one post. Take a minute and read who was quoted and you will see that after the first quote box I was quoting someone else as the post clearly shows. Hard to carry on a discussion with someone who doesn't pay enough attention to the post to see who was being spoken to. Be blessed!
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Ridgerunner.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, [neither] they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

So do you believe a man made temple will exist forever? Besides we have assurance that God does not dwell in temples made with hands:
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
So this verse is in error?
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Absolutely I believe it IF the "man-made Temple" is made by the Son of Man; it WILL exist forever and on the New Earth, to boot!

God may not "dwell in temples made with hands," but that doesn't mean that He doesn't want a Temple to exist! And, no, it does no damage to Acts 17:24. The verse is NOT in error. Shlomo HaMelekh (King Solomon) admitted this futility at the completion of the first Temple (look at verse 27 in his prayer below):

1 Kings 8:22-54
22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven:
23 And he said, Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:
24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.
25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.
26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:
29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.
30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.
31 If any man trespass against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to cause him to swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house:
32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.
33 When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house:
34 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest unto their fathers.
35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:
36 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, that thou teach them the good way wherein they should walk, and give rain upon thy land, which thou hast given to thy people for an inheritance.
37 If there be in the land famine, if there be pestilence, blasting, mildew, locust, or if there be caterpiller; if their enemy besiege them in the land of their cities; whatsoever plague, whatsoever sickness there be;
38 What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house:
39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)
40 That they may fear thee all the days that they live in the land which thou gavest unto our fathers.
41 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake;
42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm;) when he shall come and pray toward this house;
43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.
44 If thy people go out to battle against their enemy, whithersoever thou shalt send them, and shall pray unto the Lord toward the city which thou hast chosen, and toward the house that I have built for thy name:
45 Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.
46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
47 Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;
48 And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name:
49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause,
50 And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:
51 For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron:
52 That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee.
53 For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord God.

54 And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the Lord, he arose from before the altar of the Lord, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven.
KJV


Yet, God still honored the Temple with His presence - His sh'kinah! It was enough that God's NAME was there!

And, as far as Hebrews 8:13 is concerned, read the book of Hebrews in a single sitting. It will make a difference in your life. (It did for me when I read it out loud while I was being taped to make a Bible on cassette ministry for our church.) The Old Covenant simply falls into disuse as the New Covenant ABSORBS it! The New Covenant doesn't REPLACE the Old Covenant. It IMPROVES upon it, just as Yeshua` didn't give His followers a New Commandment, but an OLD Commandment of the Law with a new delivery system! He writes His Law (His Torah) upon their hearts! (Jer. 31:31.)

You are certainly entitled to believe in a rebuilt temple if you choose, but I see nothing in Scripture that shows a need or a reason for the temple to be restored.

Other than the fact that Ezekiel SAID it was going to be rebuilt, right?

LOL might I suggest you go back and reread my post. If you reply to 2 people in a row this forum places both replies in one post. Take a minute and read who was quoted and you will see that after the first quote box I was quoting someone else as the post clearly shows. Hard to carry on a discussion with someone who doesn't pay enough attention to the post to see who was being spoken to. Be blessed!

Okay, my bad. I see that now. I come from another Christian forum and post on yet a third; so, sometimes I forget the little idiosyncrasies about this board. When you click on "Quote," the secondary quotations go away. So, you're right; I wasn't paying close enough attention to your post to see it was addressed to two different individuals, and when I quoted it, I lost that information in the "Reply to this topic" editor. It'd be nice if the quoted portions was somehow divided if addressed to two different individuals.

See? I AM human, after all! I'm also willing to acknowledge when I make a mistake. Show me from Scripture that your argument is correct, and I will admit to being wrong there, too. Ever watch "Monk?" I'm like him in this respect: "I could be wrong. ... But, I'm not."
 

veteran

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No one is bearing false witness against you or saying you said something you did not say. So quit with your baseless accusations because you let your emotions dictate your responses. Allow me to explain the reason why I introduced the verses 1Cor15:52-53 into the conversation seeing as how you have chosen not to use your critical thinking skill and instead have allowed emotion to dictate your responses as a result of being unable to defend the doctrine you espouse.

You stated this about me in your post #19:
And yet you ignore the fact that Scripture tells us we do not become incorruptible until the last trumpet.

Then you went on to quote 1 Cor.15:52-53 along with your above wrong assumption towards me. And that when we have not even been discussing that Scripture. You have no factual basis for that assumption; you just made it up. Fact is, I most definitely do... regard the 1 Cor.15:52-53 Scripture about our being changed to incorruptible bodies at that "last trump" Paul spoke of.

Then you continued with some far out idea of that being associated with corruption of a building, like desolation of the temple, which are two totally unrelated Biblical concepts.


In post #14 of this thread you said that;
"The spiritual metaphorical temple idea applied to our Lord Jesus and His Body of believers CANNOT BE CORRUPTED. If it could be, then none... would have Salvation through Christ Jesus. What Paul declared about the false one coming to sit in the temple of God per 2 Thess.2 is a corrupting... of a temple, false worship, rebellion against The Father and His Son.
And all... those who don't bring forth good fruit in Christ Jesus are cut off... from His spiriutal temple, so those could never be included.
"

While your statement in another post that the cornerstone of the temple (Christ) cannot be corrupted is true, we must rember that a significant part of the temple of God is “lively stones” (believers) as a result whether we like it or not we must recognize that we all fall short and are corruptible.


You're confused. Doctrines of men have taught you to confuse the difference between Christ Jesus and His Church represented by a spiritual Temple, vs. a literal physical temple in Jerusalem. The spiritual Temple cannot... be corrupted, for it is Heavenly, like the New Jerusalem, the Jerusalem above which is free that Apostle Paul spoke of (Gal.4:26; Heb.12:22; Rev.3:12). The spiritual Temple is in relation to Christ's Kingdom from which all things that offend and those who do iniquity, are cast out (Matt.13:41). That's why that temple Paul spoke of in 2 Thess.2 with a false one coming to sit in it can never... mean the spiritual Temple with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone, and His Apostles and the prophets and His FAITHFUL Church as part of its foundation stones! To think for even one second Christ's Foundation of Salvation can be corrupted by anything, or anyone, is to be in terrible confusion and failing to understand per Scripture how such a thing is impossible. Jesus even said the gates of hell cannot prevail against His Church, and that means His Faithful Church, not those who fall away from it and are cut off because of iniquity.


Have you not read this?

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)

A good question one should ask theirself about that, is how can those do those works in Christ's Name, yet they are found guilty of iniquity when He returns, and He tells them to get away from Him? It will be because of the very matter Paul was speaking of in the 2 Thess.2 chapter of a false one coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem the deceived will think is Christ returned, their bowing to a false one that comes first, thinking he's our Lord Jesus. Satan is given all power to perform great signs, miracles, and lying wonders to pull that off, which is what Paul was taking about in 2 Thess.2:9.



Just as 1Cor15:52-53 proves by showing that we don’t put on incorruptibility until the last trump. Like it or not the temple of God has become corrupted! If not then there would not be a multitude of different doctrines and denominations.

You're totally wrong that the true spiritual Temple could ever... be corrupted by those who fall away from Christ Jesus. That's equal to saying that wickedness can dwell in Christ Jesus, since He is The Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual Temple. Those who do wickedness, whether as a believer or a non-believer, are cut off from that spiritual Temple. It cannot be corrupted.

But earthly Churches that exist with buildings can be corrupted, which is exactly the idea with that temple Paul speaks of in 2 Thess.2:3-4. Jesus even said His elect will be delivered up to "synagogues" and councils to give a Testimony 'against' them (Matt.10:17-18; Mark 13:9).


It isn'tour doctrine are denomination that saves us but our faith in Christ. Many who have strong faith (I believe you and I both fall into this category) have doctrines that are in error (once again we all fall short, I doubt if either of us have perfect doctrine in all subjects) and as a result theire is corruption within the temple.

The New Testament spiritual Temple has Christ Jesus and that Faith on Him as its basis. So how is it you say the spiritual Temple can be corrupted? A believer dwelling on false doctrines to fall away or doing wickedness becomes cut off from that spiritual Temple, seeing how Christ Jesus is its Cornerstone. It's not about our understanding being perfect, for a believer on Christ Jesus as their Saviour should never have that idea that His spiritual Temple can ever be corrupted. But go ahead, hold onto that false idea which is from men's doctrines and not at all Biblical. Men taught you to think that, not God in His Word.


A fact that had you used critical thinking skills you would have recognized if you had answered the questions I asked. But as we can all see once again you chose to become emotional because your doctrine has been shown to be in error and as a result have let your emotions dictate your response, regardless of the validity of that response. So the reality is that you are bearing false witness by accusing me of saying you said something you didn’t, even though I never accused you saying what you say I supposedly accused you of saying! Your false accusation is forgiven!

You did bear false witness against me, saying that I ignore the 1 Cor.15:52-53 event, when I do not. Too late to retract your lie now.

As for your remarks about critical thinking, you make joke of yourself, especially with that false idea from men's doctrines that Christ's spiritual Temple can be corrupted. False prophets in their vain attempt to deny Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2:3-4 about a false one coming to sit in a physical temple in Jerusalem as God for the last days came up with the doctrine of treating that temple as Christ's spiritual Temple of Ephesians 2. All you're doing is following them, and not... using critical thinking by any means!


I think we all recognize that the reason you are still talking to me is that you are bent on defending your doctrine at any costs. I realize you are upset because the doctrine you espouse has been brought into question, but it really isn't about defending our doctrine but seeking and promoting truth.

The only reason is in hope you might... come to the Truth of Scripture as written, and stop listening to doctrines of men. But I now have great doubt you will do that, at least not for the end of this world. You will though when Christ does return to end the false messiah's reign, like Paul revealed in 2 Thess.2:8.


So let’s do a little recap here and try to start fresh. This time maybe you can actually address the points I make with Scriptural proof instead of doctrinally based arguments that have been built in the absence of sound hermeneutics. When it comes to antichrist or antichrists I believe that antichrist is a spirit or individual that denies Christ/God and there are many that have existed since John wrote the only 4 verses that use the terms antichrist or antichrists. I don’t believe that in 1 John2:18 when he said “as ye have heard antichrist shall come” he was referring to an individual singular future antichrist. My reasoning is based on Scripture because in 1John4:3 (the same Epistle1John2:18 is in) he also told us “this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard should come; and even now already is it in the world”. So let’s look at those verses and see if what I believe is supported by Scripture.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


Your reasoning on that is like the joke of what came first, the eggs or the chicken. The "many antichrists" cannot exist without a singular "antichrist" having existed first. Even the idea of the 'spirit of antichrist' cannot exist without first a singular antichrist who that spirit originates from. The idea of "sound hermeneutics" must first pass the scope of common sense within simple grammar of the Scriptures, which the doctrine of men about no singular antichrist in 1 John 2:18 does not. And if those 1 John verses are the only relevant Scripture you know about that antichrist subject, that's absolute proof of your being deceived by listening to traditions of men instead.


On the other hand you believe that not only are there many antichrists but that 1John2:18 proves there is an an individual singular antichrist that comes in the end as a false Christ. As I have shown that belief is in error John told us in 1John4:3 when he said “this is that spirit of antcihrist, whereof ye have heard that should come; and even now already is it in the world” John only spoke of one antichrist that should come not two so clearly he was correcting a misconception about antichrists and explaining that antichrists are many not singular and they were already there when he wrote the verses.


You have not proven the idea of a singular antichrist coming for the end is error. You've simply denied John's mention of the antichrist they heard before that was to come, and only chose to recognize his new information to them that many antichrists already existed. He was covering something very deep that you obviously know nothing about, Paul's "mystery of iniquity" that was already at work (2 Thess.2:7).


You have also stated that this future antichrist is a false Christ claiming to be Christ. But as criticlal thinking shows you have created an oxymoron. Per Scripture antichrist is one that denies Christ yet your false Christ is supposedly claiming to be something he denies. How can that be? How can one be claiming to be something he denies exists?

Our Lord Jesus first said it, in Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22, but the KJV translators chose to render it as "false Christs", when it is the sole Greek word 'pseudochristos' in the Greek, meaning 'a pseudo Christ'. The Matt.24:23 and Matt.24:26 verses reveal He was speaking of a singular false one.

Per the Greek, 'anti' can mean 'against, instead of, or in place of'. And in relation to Satan's first sin of rebellion, THAT... is exactly what he tried to do, put himself above God, and even said that he will "sit upon the mount of the congregation" in place of God! (Isaiah 14). But I suppose you'll try to hide the Biblical meaning of that event too, since you are obviously here to get believers away... from the idea of a coming singular false messiah! That's what the doctrines of men you're on about this matter are designed to do.

Isa 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
(KJV)



I believe that per the inspired word of God a beast is a kingdom and can back that up with a verse that actually tells us a beast is a kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
So not only do we have the inspired word of God that tells us beasts are kingdoms we also have history that proves God’s word true. While you on the other hand you have claimed that a beast is the antichrist. Yet you have no Scripture that says a beast is the antichrist.


Since your doctrine must deny the coming of a singular pseudo-Christ; or antichrist, it's no surprise you have to deny the idea of the "another beast" individual, a 2nd beast, per the Rev.13:11-17 Scripture, and per the Rev.17:8-10 Scripture.

Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(KJV)

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragonwhich gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(KJV)

I wonder why God's Word associates that 2nd beast with that "dragon" name? Hmmm...

But go ahead. Try and deny that Scripture of that false one (dragon) coming to earth to work miracles in the sight of men, with all the world bowing in worship to him, or to that beast image idol he's going to setup.


In addition you even went so far as to claim that (see post57 in the Mark of the beast thread):
Let’s look at those verses and see if Jesus said the beast is Babylon or if this is nothing more then you twisting Scripture and perverting the truth of God’s word in a poor attempt to defend the doctrine you espouse!

I said our Lord uses once again, the name Babylon once again for the end time world beast KINGDOM of Rev.17 through 18.

Rev 17:3-5 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I
saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of
blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed
in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and
pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

As we can all see that Babylom is the woman(the whore) that rides on the back of the beast. Jesus did not use the title of Babylon for the final world beast!!


Babylon is specifically... the "great city" of the last verse of Rev.17...and that "great city" does what???

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

Let's see, if a 'great city' reigns over ALL the kings of the earth, then that city represents the CENTER or HEADQUARTERS of the beast kingdom. And if over all kings of the earth, how much of the earth does that cover? All of it, meaning a world kingdom!

But you're probably on the lie that Babylon harlot just represents the fallen away Christian Church.


Are you even a Christian? Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, and on Him as your Saviour? You sound more like your on Jewish traditions of the Pharisees than on Christian Doctrine from the New Testament Books.
 

shilohsfoal

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Babylon is already headquarters of the beast.Has been for many years now.
The nations have been serving the king of Babylon since 1948.Although many nations have risen to fight against the king of Babylon ,they have simply been defeated with ease in all cases.The nations can not and will not be able to destroy Babylon the great untill after 70 years have been accomplished.This is well documented in scripture and even though the Medes are at the present time are attempting to develope nuclear weapons in order to destroy Babylon ,and the king of the Medes mentioned destroying the king of Babylon,very few christians even pay attention to whats being said or understand it at all.

Jerimiah 51;11
Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.
 
You stated this about me in your post #19:

“And yet you ignore the fact that Scripture tells us we do not become incorruptible until the last trumpet”.

Then you went on to quote 1 Cor.15:52-53 along with your above wrong assumption towards me. And that when we have not even been discussing that Scripture. You have no factual basis for that assumption; you just made it up. Fact is, I most definitely do... regard the 1 Cor.15:52-53 Scripture about our being changed to incorruptible bodies at that "last trump" Paul spoke of.
Veteran I did say “And yet you ignore the fact that Scripture tells us we do not become incorruptible until the last trumpet.” But that is not what you accused me of saying. In post 22. You said
And further, you bear false witness, because I have never... said the saints still alive on earth are not 'changed' on Paul's "last trump"; instead I have affirmed it MANY TIMES on this forum.

You bearing false witness against me on that clearly reveals 'another spirit' has a hold on you!
You are of a false spirit, because what you've tried to do, is to make up LIES against me by claiming I said something I never did!

As I have already told you and anybody capable of reading this thread can see, I never said that you said anything about the saints not being changed at the last trump. I did say “And yet you ignore the fact that Scripture tells us we do not become incorruptible until the last trumpet”. . Which as anyone reading the thread can see is not the same as saying that you said the saints still alive on earth are not changed at the last trump. So who is bearing false witness? I believe in this case we can all see it is you because you have twisted my words in order to make your baseless accusation. Go back and reread the thread I also explained that what was said, was said in an effort to get you to see that while I agree Christ being the cornerstone of the temple is not corruptible, we the lively stones (believers) are still corruptible until the last trump when we put on the incorruptible. So yes while the Cornerstone(Christ) is not corruptinle, the lively stones (believers) which are part of the temple of God are corruptible until the last trump. Allow me to add a little more detail and maybe you if you actually think about what I am saying, instead of jumping to conclusions, you might understand the point being made. While the cornerstone (Christ ) of the temple of God (per Eph2:19-21) may not be corruptible does not mean that the lively stones (believers which are also considered the temple of God per 1Cor3:16-17 and 2Cor 16) are corruptible until the last trump.


Then you continued with some far out idea of that being associated with corruption of a building, like desolation of the temple, which are two totally unrelated Biblical concepts.

Once again if you would take the time to read and understand my position you would be able to comprehend the fact that I am not referring to a physical building. As I have stated multiple times I do not believe Paul is referring to a physical building but to the true temple of God, “which the Lord pitched and not man”.
Heb 8:1-2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an
high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A
minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not
man.
It is only a far out idea to you because you refuse to consider and understand how some one else may interpret these verses. If you want to believe that rebuilding a temple Christ declared desolate (rebuilding it won’t change that fact) and that a desolate building can be the temple of God, then believe that if you choose. As I have said before as you are led friend, as you are led!

Per the Greek, 'anti' can mean 'against, instead of, or in place of'.
And this from the guy who continually accuses others of following the doctrines of men. Why use man’s definition for antichrist when Scripture clearly states that antichrist is a spirit or individual that denies Christ/God and there are many that have been in the world since John wrote the verses. As I have explained before by adding man’s definition for anti to what Scripture says one creates an oxymoron. If a false Christ is the antichrist then he would be claiming to be something(Christ) he denies. That my friend is an oxymoron, nothing more then a contradictory statement. How can one claim to be something he denies? Once again all I can say is, as you are led friend, as you are led!

I said our Lord uses once again, the name Babylon once again for the end time world beast KINGDOM of Rev.17 through 18.

[/i][/b]

Babylon is specifically... the "great city" of the last verse of Rev.17...and that "great city" does what???

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

Let's see, if a 'great city' reigns over ALL the kings of the earth, then that city represents the CENTER or HEADQUARTERS of the beast kingdom. And if over all kings of the earth, how much of the earth does that cover? All of it, meaning a world kingdom!


You can continue jumping through hoops to justify believing that per your interpretation “our Lord uses once again, the name Babylon once again for the end time world beast KINGDOM of Rev.17 through 18.” But the Scripture clearly staes it is the woman (the whore_that rides the beast that is called Babylon. I do suggest you reread Rev17. Allow me to quote the relative verses:
Rev 17:3-5 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten
horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold
and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and
filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE
EARTH.

Once again al I can say is, as you are led friend, as you are led!!

Are you even a Christian? Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, and on Him as your Saviour? You sound more like your on Jewish traditions of the Pharisees than on Christian Doctrine from the New Testament Books.

Your inability to take the time to consider and understand the views other people hold explains why you are having so many hostile discussions (with many different individuals) in so many threads. Sadly it appears that your inability to consider and comprehend the views others hold results in you allowing your emotions to control your speech where you end up making baseless accusations ranging from others being blind to questioning their faith. It isn’t our doctrines about prophecy that make us believers nor will understanding prophecy make or break ones salvation.

You have certainly demonstrated that discussion with you is an exercise in futility, Be blessed my friend, I believe we are through here.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, shilohsfoal.

Matt 12:34-37
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
KJV


Those who vilify God's people, vilify God Himself.

Numbers 22:11-12
11 Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.
12 And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.
KJV


Numbers 24:1-9
1 And when Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel, he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness.
2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
3 And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:
4 He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:
5 How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel!
6 As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the river's side, as the trees of lign aloes which the Lord hath planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters.
7 He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted.
8 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.
9 He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee.
KJV
 

veteran

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Veteran I did say “And yet you ignore the fact that Scripture tells us we do not become incorruptible until the last trumpet.” But that is not what you accused me of saying. In post 22. You said

You're right, and I STILL reject what you stated!

No one... puts on an incorruptible body until that "last trump" change, for that is specifically about those still alive... on earth until that event.
 
You're right, and I STILL reject what you stated!

No one... puts on an incorruptible body until that "last trump" change, for that is specifically about those still alive... on earth until that event.

Well then as I said before if no one puts on an incorruptible body until the last trump, then the lively stones (believers) that make up part of the temple (described in Eph2:19-21) are still corruptible. So if those lively stones(believers) are corruptible (even if the cornerstone/Christ isn't) then corruption can enter the temple of God.

Your choice reject it, if you choose. As you are led friend, as you are led!
 

veteran

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Well then as I said before if no one puts on an incorruptible body until the last trump, then the lively stones (believers) that make up part of the temple (described in Eph2:19-21) are still corruptible. So if those lively stones(believers) are corruptible (even if the cornerstone/Christ isn't) then corruption can enter the temple of God.

Your choice reject it, if you choose. As you are led friend, as you are led!

Wrong! Christ's True Temple (His Body, with Himself as its Chief Cornerstone) CANNOT BE CORRUPTED!

Why? Because that's the same thing as saying that Christ Jesus Himself could be corrupted!! And only the devil could be behind such a false accusation against Christ Jesus!

You're just not thinking for yourself, but instead allow a doctrine of men to blind you.
 
Wrong! Christ's True Temple (His Body, with Himself as its Chief Cornerstone) CANNOT BE CORRUPTED!

Why? Because that's the same thing as saying that Christ Jesus Himself could be corrupted!! And only the devil could be behind such a false accusation against Christ Jesus!

You're just not thinking for yourself, but instead allow a doctrine of men to blind you.

Are the lively stones (believers) part of the temple described in Eph2:19-21? Have the lively stones (believers) put on incorruptibility? Doesn't that happen at the last trump?
1Co 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory
If the lively stones (believers) can be corrupted then corruption can enter the temple. Deny it if you choose, as you are led friend, as you are led!
 

veteran

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Are the lively stones (believers) part of the temple described in Eph2:19-21? Have the lively stones (believers) put on incorruptibility? Doesn't that happen at the last trump?

Like I said before, maybe English is not your primary language?

1 Pet 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

You cannot... add some idea of corruptibility to that Scripture's Message. Doing that is to make a mockery of what is acceptable to God by Jesus Christ!
 
Like I said before, maybe English is not your primary language?

1 Pet 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

You cannot... add some idea of corruptibility to that Scripture's Message. Doing that is to make a mockery of what is acceptable to God by Jesus Christ!
No need to add anything. Accepting what we can prove from Scripture does not make a mockery of what is acceptable. Like it or not the lively stones (believers) are corruptible until the last trump occurs.
1Co 15:51- 54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
As 1Cor15:52 clearly states we (the lively stones) do not put on incorruptibility until the last trump.
 

veteran

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No need to add anything. Accepting what we can prove from Scripture does not make a mockery of what is acceptable. Like it or not the lively stones (believers) are corruptible until the last trump occurs.
1Co 15:51- 54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
As 1Cor15:52 clearly states we (the lively stones) do not put on incorruptibility until the last trump.

You are... adding to that Scripture an idea of corruption which is not any part of that 1 Peter 2:5 Scripture.
 
You are... adding to that Scripture an idea of corruption which is not any part of that 1 Peter 2:5 Scripture.

Like it or not the lively stones(believers) are part of the temple of God(Eph2:19-21). Like it or not as Scripture shows believers(livlely stones) do not put on incorruptibility until the last (1Cor15:52). We must look at Scripture in it's entirety if we want to understand it. Aren't you the one in another thread that said we can't build a doctrine off one verse alone ( correct me if I am wrong maybe it was someone else that said it)

No one is adding to Scripture but I am looking at it in it's entirety rather then picking and choosing verses that only support a certain doctrine.
 

veteran

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Like it or not the lively stones(believers) are part of the temple of God(Eph2:19-21). Like it or not as Scripture shows believers(livlely stones) do not put on incorruptibility until the last (1Cor15:52). We must look at Scripture in it's entirety if we want to understand it. Aren't you the one in another thread that said we can't build a doctrine off one verse alone ( correct me if I am wrong maybe it was someone else that said it)

No one is adding to Scripture but I am looking at it in it's entirety rather then picking and choosing verses that only support a certain doctrine.

The "lively stones" are part of Christ's SPIRITUAL temple, UNLESS... they rebel against Him and fall away to worship another in His Place!

Then what do you think happens to those apostate believers who fall away from Christ Jesus and His Word?

They are CUT OFF FROM HIS SPIRITUAL TEMPLE!

And thus Christ's response to the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25, and those who worked many wonders in His Name, but then fell away to do iniquity per Matthew 7.
 
The "lively stones" are part of Christ's SPIRITUAL temple, UNLESS... they rebel against Him and fall away to worship another in His Place!

Then what do you think happens to those apostate believers who fall away from Christ Jesus and His Word?

They are CUT OFF FROM HIS SPIRITUAL TEMPLE!

And thus Christ's response to the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25, and those who worked many wonders in His Name, but then fell away to do iniquity per Matthew 7.

I am not denying that those lively stones (believers) that are corrupted are cut off from the spiritual temple. But that does not happen until the second coming (or until they die) at which point it is too late to repent. The temple of God (body of believers) as we can see in any church has those who have been decieved and are living in sin sitting right amongst the believers.

But now we are straying from your claim that the man of sin is the antichrist or a false messiah as you say. Can you provide any proof that he is a false messiah or would you prefer to continue side tracking the issue by arguing about what/where the temple of God actually is?